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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus
    #19059752 - 10/30/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Good day,

I suspect I found P. cinctulus. Could you please confirm that?

Pictures

Habit and habitat:


Whole bodies


Gills


Same in white background

Whole bodies


Gills


Caps


Attachment


Spore print (all together)


One by one



Same with flash

All together


One by one


Spores in water 1000x (1 piece of micrometer = .99 um)


Same in Melzer's


Description

1.Cap: 0.7 – 2.5 x 0.7 – 2.0 cm; obtusely conic/parabolic; dry and smooth; light brown at the center, dark/nut brown at the margins; non-hygrophanous.
2.Gills: adnexed (?); close; brown to dark brown/black.
3.Stalk: 5.0 – 9.0 x 0.1 – 0.4; equal; dry and smooth; white to light brown/brown.
4.No partial (and universal veil).
5.Spores: black/black jet in deposit; 12–15 x 7–10 um; fusiform/eliptical/lemon shaped (?); non-amyloid. 
6.Habit: grows on the ground (soil); park lawn; grouping: grows in groups.
7.Other: 30 October 2013, Aarhus, Denmark. Does not seem to bruise blue.

Thanks for your help!
(I could not wait for these to mature, as they would have been trimmed in an hour or so [it's a public park]; I really wanted to know if P. cinctulus grow here; while I know that they must be around in Denmark, I haven't seen anyone showing them off)


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InvisibleGanzig
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19059759 - 10/30/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yup!

Little brown lemons. Thats what P. cinctulus spores look like in the scope.


--------------------
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I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
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Offlinexfsketch
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Ganzig]
    #19060144 - 10/30/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Love cincts! Nice finds and great job with the info and scope pics OP!:highfive:


--------------------
Might Take Some Time, But I Will Find It! Whatever it is. Im a determined person!


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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: xfsketch]
    #19062328 - 10/31/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ganzig and xfsketch, thanks for your replies.

I guess, then, I have my first P. cinctulus!


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InvisibleByrain

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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19062341 - 10/31/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think those look like P. cinctulus, more like P. olivaceus, but the spores are too smooth for that so you should probably check for sulphidia on the gill face and also, can you see if you can find any spores that have an oblique germ pore in the side view?  I don't think I see any in your pictures.  P. cinctulus and P. fimicola should have oblique germ pores.


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Offlinexfsketch
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Byrain]
    #19062492 - 10/31/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yw OP. And i didnt know all that Byrain. Good info!:murray:


--------------------
Might Take Some Time, But I Will Find It! Whatever it is. Im a determined person!


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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Byrain]
    #19063212 - 10/31/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Byrain said:
I don't think those look like P. cinctulus, more like P. olivaceus, but the spores are too smooth for that so you should probably check for sulphidia on the gill face and also, can you see if you can find any spores that have an oblique germ pore in the side view?  I don't think I see any in your pictures.  P. cinctulus and P. fimicola should have oblique germ pores.




Interesting. I'm going to work with the microscope in two hours or so; so, I'll have a look at my "cinctulus" once again and upload micro-graphs.


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InvisibleByrain

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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19063258 - 10/31/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Also, looking at the gill edge for cheilocystidia would be a good idea.  And looking at the pileipellis structure is always a good idea for lbms, though not really necessary in this case...


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19063294 - 10/31/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alternativejamb said:
Good day,

I suspect I found P. cinctulus. Could you please confirm that?

Pictures

Habit and habitat:


Whole bodies


Gills


Same in white background

Whole bodies


Gills


Caps


Attachment


Spore print (all together)


One by one



Same with flash

All together


One by one


Spores in water 1000x (1 piece of micrometer = .99 um)


Same in Melzer's


Description

1.Cap: 0.7 – 2.5 x 0.7 – 2.0 cm; obtusely conic/parabolic; dry and smooth; light brown at the center, dark/nut brown at the margins; non-hygrophanous.
2.Gills: adnexed (?); close; brown to dark brown/black.
3.Stalk: 5.0 – 9.0 x 0.1 – 0.4; equal; dry and smooth; white to light brown/brown.
4.No partial (and universal veil).
5.Spores: black/black jet in deposit; 12–15 x 7–10 um; fusiform/eliptical/lemon shaped (?); non-amyloid. 
6.Habit: grows on the ground (soil); park lawn; grouping: grows in groups.
7.Other: 30 October 2013, Aarhus, Denmark. Does not seem to bruise blue.

Thanks for your help!
(I could not wait for these to mature, as they would have been trimmed in an hour or so [it's a public park]; I really wanted to know if P. cinctulus grow here; while I know that they must be around in Denmark, I haven't seen anyone showing them off)



Fantastic ID request, nice micro on the spores!


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineAlternativejamb
Male

Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Joust]
    #19064523 - 10/31/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Joust, glad to hear that!

Here are some close-ups of spores. They don't seem to have oblique germ pores:



None of the spores I looked at today seemed to have such pores.

I haven't had enough time to look at cystidia, but I'll try to do that this weekend (if that changes anything after the pore-thing?)


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19064780 - 10/31/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah; I'm not much good at judging such things, but those look to be consistently perpendicular to the median, if that's the reference to use.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19066580 - 10/31/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alternativejamb said:
Joust, glad to hear that!

Here are some close-ups of spores. They don't seem to have oblique germ pores:



None of the spores I looked at today seemed to have such pores.

I haven't had enough time to look at cystidia, but I'll try to do that this weekend (if that changes anything after the pore-thing?)



I dont know if that feature is all that important, i have seen it happen and not happen in the same observation so many times...


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleByrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Joust]
    #19067028 - 10/31/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
I dont know if that feature is all that important, i have seen it happen and not happen in the same observation so many times...




That is exactly how its described, sometimes visible in the side view vs. always absent.  I don't see it in any of those photos, except maybe 4th picture, its something you need to look at many spores to judge correctly.  I looked at Gerhardt's keys, knowing if sulphidia is present or absent would really help...


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Byrain]
    #19067075 - 10/31/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You're quite likely right about the 4th picture, given how oblong it appears in that view.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Byrain]
    #19067694 - 11/01/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Byrain said:
Quote:

Joust said:
I dont know if that feature is all that important, i have seen it happen and not happen in the same observation so many times...




That is exactly how its described, sometimes visible in the side view vs. always absent.  I don't see it in any of those photos, except maybe 4th picture, its something you need to look at many spores to judge correctly.  I looked at Gerhardt's keys, knowing if sulphidia is present or absent would really help...



:shocked::grin:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Joust]
    #19068970 - 11/01/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

All right - I'll get back to you as soon as I get further info.


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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19075832 - 11/02/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I have looked at the micro characteristics once again and got some additional info.

I believe it's P. olivaceus.

First, after I set up Kohler illumination, I found that spores are not that smooth (though, what is "smooth" and "non-smooth" is party a matter of interpretation):

In natural appearance (water) 1000x:


In Melzer's:


x400 (Water):



Second, I couldn't find pleurocystidia/sulphidia (though, I didn't use sulfo-vanillin, as I don't have it).

According to Gerhardt [1996], P. olivaceus has "finely roughened" spores and lacks sulphidia - http://mushroomobserver.org/name/show_name_description/5154?q=1bRIg).


Third, I looked, once again, at hundreds of spores, and I couldn't find spores with oblique germ pore, besides few with a germ pore that looks like that above in picture #4 (once again, here's some space for interpretation of what constitutes "oblique germ pore" and what doesn't [I'll get back to this below]).


Fourth, basidia measures 23-30 x 10-12 um, which is very close to Møller's (1945) description - http://mushroomobserver.org/name/show_name/18360?q=1bRIg. Here's a picture:



Fifth, cheilocystidia was abundant, measuring 30-42 x 9-10, which is also close to Møller's description. It also looks flexous. Here are some pictures:




Now, why not P. fimicola? Spores are not smooth, do not have oblique germ pore (my reading of Gerhardt [1996] tells me that oblique germ pore is characteristic of P. fimicola, it's not that some of the spores have oblique germ pores; Stamets (1996) also says that spores are "lemon shaped with an apical germ pore" [p.76]). I haven't found sulphidia either. Stamets (1996) also describes that P. fimicola has "fusoid-ventricose" cheilocystidia (and, if I correctly understand what it means, that is not the case in the above picture); though, Gerhardt's (1996) description of cheilocystidia seems to match.

Why not P. cinctulus? As mentioned above, spores do not have oblique germ pore. According to Stamets "Cheilocystidia variable in form, mostly pear shaped, 14-21 by 3-7 u" (1996, p.82), which does not match my measures and shape in the picture above.

Also, according to Subbedhunter420 - http://www.shroomery.org/12484/Panaeolus-cinctulus - , P. cinctulus stem has lines that "twist and turn up the stem", and lines are almost perfectly straight in the mature body in the picture's above (this is, however, just one specimen).


Let me know if you have any corrections. I'm a beginner, and here I rely on just a few sources (which seem to be conflicting); thus, I'm likely to be off the track in some parts:)

Thanks!


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19077353 - 11/02/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

hmm, olivaceus looks promising i think, though, id like to see them a little roughened in outline, good micro shots!


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleByrain

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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Alternativejamb]
    #19077799 - 11/02/13 11:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nice work, I'd call it P. olivaceus at this point.  You can tell the spores are a little roughened in some of the pictures, it can be a very hard feature to photograph.  The lack of sulphidia and an oblique germ pore also matches.  Also, the slender cheilocystidia, spore shape, and even macro. 

Quote:

Alternativejamb said:
Also, according to Subbedhunter420 - http://www.shroomery.org/12484/Panaeolus-cinctulus - , P. cinctulus stem has lines that "twist and turn up the stem", and lines are almost perfectly straight in the mature body in the picture's above (this is, however, just one specimen).





It doesn't matter which way the lines on the stem twist, you should take that guide with a grain of salt.


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OfflineAlternativejamb
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Re: Need ID/confirmation - P. cinctulus [Re: Byrain]
    #19079366 - 11/03/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds good. Thanks for your replies.

One more thing - I found Workman's post -  http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16341578/fpart/3/vc/1 - claiming that P. olivaceus often grows next to dog feces. Today I went through the same place and found one more fruit body of what is presumably P. olivaceus, and, indeed, it was growing on or next to (or through) decayed dog feces (I assume it's dog's, as the only other animals that hang around in this park are ducks and humans).

Also, NeoSporen, observed that P. olivaceus he found (if that was indeed P. olivaceus) were all growing near a sidewalk - just as mine were - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16341578/fpart/1/vc/1


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