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InvisibleCactilove
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Arguments Against Nihilism?
    #19054112 - 10/29/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove] * 2
    #19054522 - 10/29/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't be sure how to argue against nihilism...

It's never been something I have chosen to believe in, but rather something I came to understand through experience.
To be honest, I didn't even learn the word until somebody said it in reference to something I was talking about a handful of years ago.

I think true nihilism is a healthy landmark in 'spiritual' and intellectual growth.
As it marks a collapse in the way one relates to ideological systems in which they previously adhered and aren't replacing it with what they perceive to be a superior or more 'holy' body of ideals, which IMO is one of the biggest 'mistakes' among 'spiritual seekers'.

Emptiness is one of the most beautiful and liberating feelings I have experienced... In those moments is where I feel closest to what it is I think people are talking about when they say 'the divine,'  'god', and many other sounds...


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleThe Phleg
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19054562 - 10/29/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


Pretty much what I would say.


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You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19054898 - 10/29/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: The Phleg]
    #19054907 - 10/29/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Emptiness is one of the most beautiful and liberating feelings I have experienced.



There does seem to be something about nothing that feels liberating.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19054917 - 10/29/13 11:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:  I see what you did there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19054940 - 10/29/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:awesomenod:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19057786 - 10/30/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19058060 - 10/30/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.



What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: husmmoor]
    #19058539 - 10/30/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:

There does seem to be something about nothing that feels liberating.




:nono: Not nothing or oblivion, but emptiness.
The sensation of your identity not being present and just witnessing, the quieting of mental chatter and processes via dissociatives or meditation, emptiness...

This is something I wrote a couple weeks ago to try and summarize the experience in four lines after a friend and I ate something in the 2c family while sitting at the beach watching surfers as a huge storm ominously roiled out at sea and made it to us as twilight sank in and we peaked.

"Laying on the cold stony shore,
Open to the wisdom of my death,
Violent waves wash away memories of self
Exposing me to eternal emptiness."



Quote:

husmmoor said:
What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?




I know this question isn't directed toward me, but I would like to say that nihilism isn't something one should have to argue for as right or a philosophy worth adopting, but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19058681 - 10/30/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19058823 - 10/30/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:

husmmoor said:
What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?




I know this question isn't directed toward me, but I would like to say that nihilism isn't something one should have to argue for as right or a philosophy worth adopting, but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.



Well yes, nihilism is also a set of beliefs, I agree on that. But from a philosophical point of view I think it's interesting why nihilism might be the most logical position, not that I'm against nihilism or anything - I'm just curious.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: husmmoor]
    #19059388 - 10/30/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nihilism is lazy, and seems more a simple rejection of theistic beliefs than an actual philosophy..and its so damned depressing.

Nihilism, that is to say, that all life and the universe have no meaning..would sound a lot better to me if it went something like:

"The meaning that humans have given to all life and the universe has no meaning." BUT even that statement, is well, rather pointless. As, even if whatever meaning we give anything is plurable and very often out right wrong..it doesn't mean that it has no meaning..nihilists weren't satisfied with previous answers, rejected them...and it seems almost out of frustration alone, came to the conclusion that 'it must all mean nothing.'
The whole nihilistic philosophy is pointless (lol). It may have started off as a joke. 

From mine and very many others observations, everything in the universe has a purpose and a point to its existence, if only to serve for existence alone. What is chaos to the fly is food for the spider.

When I ponder a universe without point or purpose, and even go so far as to accepting it, I still want to give it purpose. I still want to give it meaning.

And I can and I do.

That alone, refutes nihilism, or at least apart of it.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19059638 - 10/30/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nihilism, that is to say, that all life and the universe have no meaning.

What?  Are you telling me that you think that is nihilism?

I think you're talking about existential nihilism.  There seems to be more than one form of nihilism.

IMO it's not that life and the universe have no meaning it's that we can't know what if any meaning there is to life and existence and imo that's a fundamental difference. Maybe however that's existentialism proper (in the sense that we create our meanings subjectively)  which I would adhere to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/30/13 08:01 PM)


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19060179 - 10/30/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Life is learning. That is a argument against Nihilism. Life is about learning. This is strange being on a psychedelic forum....Many psychedelics will show you what life means. As Terence Mckenna said "Life is a joke" and the meaning of life is to truly understand the joke.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (10/30/13 09:05 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19060241 - 10/30/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
Life is learning. That is a argument against Nihilism. Life is about learning. This is strange being on a psychedelic forum....Many psychedelics will show you what life means. As Terence Mckenna said "Life is a joke" and the meaning of life is to truly understand the joke.




Those are statements not arguments.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19060278 - 10/30/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've always understood it to mean pretty much what I wrote in full. Also, the google definition which I just searched,

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnē-/Submit
noun
1.
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.

seems to agree with me a bit.

But I do say that this statement "The meaning that humans have given to all life and the universe has no meaning."  would make more sense as a philosophical inquiry, which seems to align well with "IMO it's not that life and the universe have no meaning it's that we can't know what if any meaning there is to life and existence ".

You are right though, that we cannot know the meaning of life and existence is fundamentally different than there is no meaning of life and existence. Its like agnosticism to atheism.

  But even than, nihilism is lazy and gives up on the question with what seems to be an answer born out of rejection and frustration, so my argument remains the same.

Logic being: every single observable thing serves a purpose and has a meaning. These words serve a purpose and have a meaning. Everything in the universe had to happen the way it happened for us to be here right now.

If you find no meaning in your own life or the lives of others than it is easy to overlook how every single thing has meaning in relation to everything else. A must happen so that C will happen when B happens, and so on and so forth. And that you are apart of this interconnection. 

I guess the real questions, for myself at least, would be does purpose need to be meaningful?
And what exactly do we mean when we say 'meaningful'?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19060972 - 10/30/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

But if Nihilism states life has no meaning then if you learn things from life, there is a meaning.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (10/30/13 11:00 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19061246 - 10/31/13 12:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
But if Nihilism states life has no meaning then if you learn things from life, there is a meaning.




Another blank statement.

I'm a moral nihilist and possibly a mereological nihilist.

For the former my argument is that morality differs by culture, sub culture, individual within a culture, and individual within different time frames (stages in life and moment to moment). These are all very observable if you would like examples, and based on that fact I conclude that there is no objective morality - that it is a social construct.

Mereologically speaking we can observe on an atomic level the spaces which run through us, we are composed of many small parts which together make up the whole which itself does not exist outside of the cohesion of those many parts. What consciousness is I won't speculate, but these temporal bodies and objects we perceive are like balls of sand.
I'm on the fence as to whether or not those objects should be considered real or not.


In my opinion many people are afraid of Nihilism because they do not understand its varied definitions, or even what a generalized concept might suggest. Their miss-association of Nihilism with fatalism and fear of the possibility of a true death causes a panic to cover up the idea and discard it, and a boogey man - strawman argument appears that Nihilism is somehow fatalistic and evil.

Fear
:fonz:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19061256 - 10/31/13 12:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
I've always understood it to mean pretty much what I wrote in full. Also, the google definition which I just searched,

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnē-/Submit
noun
1.
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.




That is a coarse generalization of a subject which has had many books written on it. Nihilism isn't just a word, it is a whole scope of philosophy.


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