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InvisibleCactilove
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Arguments Against Nihilism?
    #19054112 - 10/29/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove] * 2
    #19054522 - 10/29/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't be sure how to argue against nihilism...

It's never been something I have chosen to believe in, but rather something I came to understand through experience.
To be honest, I didn't even learn the word until somebody said it in reference to something I was talking about a handful of years ago.

I think true nihilism is a healthy landmark in 'spiritual' and intellectual growth.
As it marks a collapse in the way one relates to ideological systems in which they previously adhered and aren't replacing it with what they perceive to be a superior or more 'holy' body of ideals, which IMO is one of the biggest 'mistakes' among 'spiritual seekers'.

Emptiness is one of the most beautiful and liberating feelings I have experienced... In those moments is where I feel closest to what it is I think people are talking about when they say 'the divine,'  'god', and many other sounds...


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InvisibleThe Phleg
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19054562 - 10/29/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


Pretty much what I would say.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19054898 - 10/29/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: The Phleg]
    #19054907 - 10/29/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Emptiness is one of the most beautiful and liberating feelings I have experienced.



There does seem to be something about nothing that feels liberating.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19054917 - 10/29/13 11:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:  I see what you did there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19054940 - 10/29/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:awesomenod:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19057786 - 10/30/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19058060 - 10/30/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.



What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: husmmoor]
    #19058539 - 10/30/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:

There does seem to be something about nothing that feels liberating.




:nono: Not nothing or oblivion, but emptiness.
The sensation of your identity not being present and just witnessing, the quieting of mental chatter and processes via dissociatives or meditation, emptiness...

This is something I wrote a couple weeks ago to try and summarize the experience in four lines after a friend and I ate something in the 2c family while sitting at the beach watching surfers as a huge storm ominously roiled out at sea and made it to us as twilight sank in and we peaked.

"Laying on the cold stony shore,
Open to the wisdom of my death,
Violent waves wash away memories of self
Exposing me to eternal emptiness."



Quote:

husmmoor said:
What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?




I know this question isn't directed toward me, but I would like to say that nihilism isn't something one should have to argue for as right or a philosophy worth adopting, but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19058681 - 10/30/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19058823 - 10/30/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:

husmmoor said:
What's the logical argument for nihilism, as you define it?




I know this question isn't directed toward me, but I would like to say that nihilism isn't something one should have to argue for as right or a philosophy worth adopting, but arrive to understanding via realizing for ones self the ambiguity of things and our personal, as well as culture's, role in assigning meaning.



Well yes, nihilism is also a set of beliefs, I agree on that. But from a philosophical point of view I think it's interesting why nihilism might be the most logical position, not that I'm against nihilism or anything - I'm just curious.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: husmmoor]
    #19059388 - 10/30/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nihilism is lazy, and seems more a simple rejection of theistic beliefs than an actual philosophy..and its so damned depressing.

Nihilism, that is to say, that all life and the universe have no meaning..would sound a lot better to me if it went something like:

"The meaning that humans have given to all life and the universe has no meaning." BUT even that statement, is well, rather pointless. As, even if whatever meaning we give anything is plurable and very often out right wrong..it doesn't mean that it has no meaning..nihilists weren't satisfied with previous answers, rejected them...and it seems almost out of frustration alone, came to the conclusion that 'it must all mean nothing.'
The whole nihilistic philosophy is pointless (lol). It may have started off as a joke. 

From mine and very many others observations, everything in the universe has a purpose and a point to its existence, if only to serve for existence alone. What is chaos to the fly is food for the spider.

When I ponder a universe without point or purpose, and even go so far as to accepting it, I still want to give it purpose. I still want to give it meaning.

And I can and I do.

That alone, refutes nihilism, or at least apart of it.


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Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19059638 - 10/30/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nihilism, that is to say, that all life and the universe have no meaning.

What?  Are you telling me that you think that is nihilism?

I think you're talking about existential nihilism.  There seems to be more than one form of nihilism.

IMO it's not that life and the universe have no meaning it's that we can't know what if any meaning there is to life and existence and imo that's a fundamental difference. Maybe however that's existentialism proper (in the sense that we create our meanings subjectively)  which I would adhere to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/30/13 08:01 PM)


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19060179 - 10/30/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Life is learning. That is a argument against Nihilism. Life is about learning. This is strange being on a psychedelic forum....Many psychedelics will show you what life means. As Terence Mckenna said "Life is a joke" and the meaning of life is to truly understand the joke.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (10/30/13 09:05 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19060241 - 10/30/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
Life is learning. That is a argument against Nihilism. Life is about learning. This is strange being on a psychedelic forum....Many psychedelics will show you what life means. As Terence Mckenna said "Life is a joke" and the meaning of life is to truly understand the joke.




Those are statements not arguments.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19060278 - 10/30/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've always understood it to mean pretty much what I wrote in full. Also, the google definition which I just searched,

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnē-/Submit
noun
1.
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.

seems to agree with me a bit.

But I do say that this statement "The meaning that humans have given to all life and the universe has no meaning."  would make more sense as a philosophical inquiry, which seems to align well with "IMO it's not that life and the universe have no meaning it's that we can't know what if any meaning there is to life and existence ".

You are right though, that we cannot know the meaning of life and existence is fundamentally different than there is no meaning of life and existence. Its like agnosticism to atheism.

  But even than, nihilism is lazy and gives up on the question with what seems to be an answer born out of rejection and frustration, so my argument remains the same.

Logic being: every single observable thing serves a purpose and has a meaning. These words serve a purpose and have a meaning. Everything in the universe had to happen the way it happened for us to be here right now.

If you find no meaning in your own life or the lives of others than it is easy to overlook how every single thing has meaning in relation to everything else. A must happen so that C will happen when B happens, and so on and so forth. And that you are apart of this interconnection. 

I guess the real questions, for myself at least, would be does purpose need to be meaningful?
And what exactly do we mean when we say 'meaningful'?


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19060972 - 10/30/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

But if Nihilism states life has no meaning then if you learn things from life, there is a meaning.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (10/30/13 11:00 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19061246 - 10/31/13 12:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
But if Nihilism states life has no meaning then if you learn things from life, there is a meaning.




Another blank statement.

I'm a moral nihilist and possibly a mereological nihilist.

For the former my argument is that morality differs by culture, sub culture, individual within a culture, and individual within different time frames (stages in life and moment to moment). These are all very observable if you would like examples, and based on that fact I conclude that there is no objective morality - that it is a social construct.

Mereologically speaking we can observe on an atomic level the spaces which run through us, we are composed of many small parts which together make up the whole which itself does not exist outside of the cohesion of those many parts. What consciousness is I won't speculate, but these temporal bodies and objects we perceive are like balls of sand.
I'm on the fence as to whether or not those objects should be considered real or not.


In my opinion many people are afraid of Nihilism because they do not understand its varied definitions, or even what a generalized concept might suggest. Their miss-association of Nihilism with fatalism and fear of the possibility of a true death causes a panic to cover up the idea and discard it, and a boogey man - strawman argument appears that Nihilism is somehow fatalistic and evil.

Fear
:fonz:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19061256 - 10/31/13 12:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
I've always understood it to mean pretty much what I wrote in full. Also, the google definition which I just searched,

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnē-/Submit
noun
1.
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.




That is a coarse generalization of a subject which has had many books written on it. Nihilism isn't just a word, it is a whole scope of philosophy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19061325 - 10/31/13 12:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a moral nihilist and possibly a mereological nihilist.

Doesn't surprise me you'd post these as your basis in nihilism. I bothered to read up a bit when responding to HTX and found both of these forms to be within, more or less, my views on life these days. :thumbup:

Many people stop reading when they find some part of nihilism that confirms their beliefs or needs rather than trying to understand completely.  I find the ideas behind nihilism far from lazy.  I don't see how life is a cakewalk for anyone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/13 12:49 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19061356 - 10/31/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

We seem to have a lot in common philosophically, which is interesting because I consider myself somewhat eclectic compared to most people

After reading more about existential nihilism I'd say I'm on the fence about that as well, inherently there is no reason to believe that there is any objective "meaning" to life, and made up meaning doesn't replace that as far as I care.
On the other hand maybe there is some "meaning" or "purpose" to life which I'm simply not aware of, for the time being I would say I don't have a belief on the matter but lean on the idea that there is no meaning because thus far there is no evidence for any meaning.


Edited by Repertoire89 (10/31/13 01:04 AM)


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19061640 - 10/31/13 03:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nihilism is what brought me to study up on all things philosophical/spiritual to begin with, its what brought me to this forum..I had a long debate with someone after he told me "nihilism is the answer." in so many words, and all I could really do was ask him to question deeper. My only logical argument was that if we cannot know meaning or that there is no meaning or value to anything, then why stop at 'no meaning' and give meaning and value to that viewpoint.
Its absurd, but thats what nihilism is about so meh. The more studying I do and the more life I live the more I can relate to nihilism but still..

When told that nihilism was the answer, my question/answer was "Why settle?"


That is why I said lazy..not meaning that nihilism is a cake-walk by any means, but that its proprietors have given up on the question.

And the question is advantageous to the answer.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19061831 - 10/31/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I tend to agree with existentialism.  We make our own meanings because we don't know any objective meaning.

And giving up a question because one determines it's unanswerable is not laziness but rather wisdom imo.  Assuming that's what their motive is.  Maybe different for each person.

There's a lot of depressives and cynics going around in the uniform of nihilist's imo.  They likely don't even know what it really is about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/13 06:04 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19062585 - 10/31/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

There's a lot of depressives and cynics going around in the uniform of nihilist's imo.  They likely don't even know what it really is about.




That crowd definitely abounds.



Quote:

hTx said:

When told that nihilism was the answer, my question/answer was "Why settle?"




Subjective / personal meaning is irrelevant when considering whether or not there is objective meaning, I have my own goals and reasons for living but they exist only in my own mind.
Nihilism isn't a bleak philosophy like its made out to be, one could technically be a mereological nihilist and believe in the flying spaghetti monster.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19062601 - 10/31/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

You and I do think alike in very many ways.  I'm wondering how old you are.  If you are still in your twenties then you are worlds ahead of where I was at that time. 

That's not necessarily  a good thing for you but it might be. :satansmoking:

It's been a very great pleasure to run across people such as yourself here at the shroomery.  It's very rare that I ever do and it means a great deal to me personally.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19062616 - 10/31/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

That's not necessarily  a good thing for you but it might be. :satansmoking:




:lolsy:

I'm 24, pretty happy with life so far. Been through enough hard times to be satisfied with hedonism if nothing else, but there's plenty of time for that to change.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19062643 - 10/31/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The planets revolve around the sun and if there were no sun the planets would just be asteroids flying through space. I don't know if I follow your logic. Love is the sun of humanity because if there is no love there is only chaos. The universe is indifferent to what happens though but within earth there are consequences and rewards for your actions.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19062681 - 10/31/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
The planets revolve around the sun and if there were no sun the planets would just be asteroids flying through space. I don't know if I follow your logic. Love is the sun of humanity because if there is no love there is only chaos.




Love is a word misrepresenting sincere empathy, paraded about by charlatans for their own misuse. Charlatans from Disney World to India and worst of all teenagers who want to get laid - control someone - reproduce.

That word has been dragged through the gutters so much it makes me sick to hear it, more importantly though what does your perception have to do with objective reality? You value empathy and see patterns in astronomy, anything taken from that is a subjective opinion - not enough evidence to outline any objective meaning in life.


Quote:

The universe is indifferent to what happens though but within earth there are consequences and rewards for your actions.




That's true enough, but how is it relevant?


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OnlineFreedom
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19063145 - 10/31/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.





People use the word to mean different things, so I'm not sure what you mean. But usually nihilism has something to do with lack of meaning. So then of course what do we mean by meaning?

Meaning usually is about the purpose of life, a reason for it, some motivating factor that justifies actions.

Using these definitions, I think the ultimate test of a Nihilist is, can they do nothing until they die of thirst? If the supposed Nihilist so much as shifts their body position to get comfortable, then they have done something that is personally meaningful to them. That person, for whatever reason, finds personal meaning in being comfortable.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Freedom]
    #19064203 - 10/31/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.





People use the word to mean different things, so I'm not sure what you mean. But usually nihilism has something to do with lack of meaning. So then of course what do we mean by meaning?

Meaning usually is about the purpose of life, a reason for it, some motivating factor that justifies actions.

Using these definitions, I think the ultimate test of a Nihilist is, can they do nothing until they die of thirst? If the supposed Nihilist so much as shifts their body position to get comfortable, then they have done something that is personally meaningful to them. That person, for whatever reason, finds personal meaning in being comfortable.




If you're referring to existentialist nihilism, instinct is enough to provide reason why one would act according to their physical interests. That doesn't give the instincts any meaning of their own.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19065418 - 10/31/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He lives, but he does not exist.

He exists, but he does not live.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19065448 - 10/31/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you not see the appeal of nihilism?


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19065689 - 10/31/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I said in an earlier post I am partial towards it, however nihilism doesn't say anything about synchronicity. My experience with synchronicity tells me its a very real phenomena.

My experience is also telling me, however, that one shouldn't put to much meaning into them either.

Nihilism, for myself, is an interesting read and I understand the appeal. Break down all falseness but I don't believe that it all breaks down into absolutely no meaning or value..imo that is making quite a leap of logic and is the same as saying the universe is full of meaning and value, because it is its exact opposite.

I do see the redemption quality. I do see the freedom. But I also hold redemption and freedom to be very valuable and meaningful to any individual. So nihilism is paradoxical at best.

Every human being has value, imo, every event is meaningful to myself (and others) and my (and others) existence. A philosophy that takes away that value and that meaning is, imo, extremely dangerous. 

But it happens.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19065781 - 10/31/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What I truly believe is that we see what we believe.

If you believe in a universe void of meaning than you will get a universe void of meaning.
If you believe in a universe full of meaning than you will get a universe full of meaning.

If your stuck in the middle,than you will see signs of both as I do now.
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

The only logical conclusion is this: We are in control of our perceptions and our perceptions reflect themselves in reality. Change your perception, change your reality.

Its all up to you, good sir.  :hatsoff:

The fundamental truth contained with nihilism that I am partial towards is this exact sentiment.

But they make a leap by saying this means a lack of meaning or value. No evidence.


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Edited by hTx (10/31/13 08:21 PM)


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19066764 - 10/31/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well nihilism is a set of ideas not a belief, personally I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything or sell any kind of idea.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19067266 - 11/01/13 12:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'll buy that.:satansmoking:


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19067351 - 11/01/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

what separates a set of ideas from a belief other than our belief in them? I get what your saying though.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19073849 - 11/02/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If anything does have a meaning, who has the authority to give it that meaning? Who has the authority to say why the universe is here? Or why a moral exists or not? I'm not against Nihilism, but doesn't someone declaring that something has a meaning, give it a meaning? If we don't give something a purpose then who will?


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19073901 - 11/02/13 07:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd be glad to give it a meaning if I could come up with something that satisfied my logical mind.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove] * 1
    #19073970 - 11/02/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.




when i was a young boy, rebelling against everyone and everything, i found nihilism because of the rancid song titled accordingly.

this was when i was in 7th grade...how old are we in 7th grade? ha

i soon thereafter found leftover crack, another punk band, and i am thankful that i did, because this was the basis of my cynical, pessimistic, REALISTIC view of experience.

yea, surely it has ingrained many attitudes which have gotten me imprisoned, addicted to drugs, and lost me an opportunity to play in the national hockey league, but fuck it, i'm proud of myself, whatever that means.

i truly believe that life is only about survival.  not about pleasure, not about pain specifically, but our ability to survive excesses of either.

living on the street, evading police, shooting heroin, dropping out of school to play hockey for money, begging for money, that shit makes you stronger.

jail will do that to you too.

end of my stupid fucking rant


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19074764 - 11/02/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Existential Nihilism states that there is no identifiable inherent meaning in life. Nihilism and extrinsic meaning are perfectly comparable.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: stzacrack]
    #19074779 - 11/02/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

stzacrack said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.




when i was a young boy, rebelling against everyone and everything, i found nihilism because of the rancid song titled accordingly.

this was when i was in 7th grade...how old are we in 7th grade? ha

i soon thereafter found leftover crack, another punk band, and i am thankful that i did, because this was the basis of my cynical, pessimistic, REALISTIC view of experience.

yea, surely it has ingrained many attitudes which have gotten me imprisoned, addicted to drugs, and lost me an opportunity to play in the national hockey league, but fuck it, i'm proud of myself, whatever that means.

i truly believe that life is only about survival.  not about pleasure, not about pain specifically, but our ability to survive excesses of either.

living on the street, evading police, shooting heroin, dropping out of school to play hockey for money, begging for money, that shit makes you stronger.

jail will do that to you too.

end of my stupid fucking rant




:manofapproval:

Particularly liked the ending 10/10 would read again


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19074808 - 11/02/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.




That's too bad. I remember writing a paper about nihilism, just to get my thoughts out. LSD changed my mind. Nihilism seems to be a philosophy colored by depression. Even if one is not familiar with the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, which is to a certain extent anthropologically slanted, the opposite view is of teleology. The universe of space-time emerged from eternity, expanded rapidly from a sub-atomic singularity, differentiated from incomprehensible energy into particles. Hydrogen formed, stars formed, the rest of the elements formed within the stars, compounds formed, planets formed, life formed! The Great Chain of Being began with the first particles and evolved into self-aware nodes of complex socio-biological-psychological-cultural-spiritual beings on Earth. The macro universe defies the more local laws of physics by speeding up.

The bottom line here is that joyful, optimistic minds can envision all manner of ecstatic cosmic possibilities. A non-articulated faith underlies such a hopeful outlook, which is bolstered by the awareness of the Great Chain of Being. Of course there are opposite forces at work, like entropy, death, Thanatos Principle behind heinous acts against animals, humans, the biosphere, but duality is built into the whole 0, 1 dualism inherent in existence. Nevertheless, transcendence of the duality of existence is a perspective sub specie aeternitatis, a cosmic perspective which immediately dismisses nihilism with a hearty laugh. Nihilism can't be abolished by argument, but it quite easily evaporates through ecstasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19074828 - 11/02/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.




That's too bad. I remember writing a paper about nihilism, just to get my thoughts out. LSD changed my mind. Nihilism seems to be a philosophy colored by depression. Even if one is not familiar with the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, which is to a certain extent anthropologically slanted, the opposite view is of teleology. The universe of space-time emerged from eternity, expanded rapidly from a sub-atomic singularity, differentiated from incomprehensible energy into particles. Hydrogen formed, stars formed, the rest of the elements formed within the stars, compounds formed, planets formed, life formed! The Great Chain of Being began with the first particles and evolved into self-aware nodes of complex socio-biological-psychological-cultural-spiritual beings on Earth. The macro universe defies the more local laws of physics by speeding up.

The bottom line here is that joyful, optimistic minds can envision all manner of ecstatic cosmic possibilities. A non-articulated faith underlies such a hopeful outlook, which is bolstered by the awareness of the Great Chain of Being. Of course there are opposite forces at work, like entropy, death, Thanatos Principle behind heinous acts against animals, humans, the biosphere, but duality is built into the whole 0, 1 dualism inherent in existence. Nevertheless, transcendence of the duality of existence is a perspective sub specie aeternitatis, a cosmic perspective which immediately dismisses nihilism with a hearty laugh. Nihilism can't be abolished by argument, but it quite easily evaporates through ecstasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point




That's all wishy washy feelings and emotionalism, which has nothing to do with logic. Also nihilism has no negative connotations, that is entirely up to the individual.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19074850 - 11/02/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

just because you can envision optimism in the face of sadness, doesn't make the sadness disappear.

what i'm saying is that the starving child could care less if you feel great about him starving.

i believe voltaire, candide takes a nihilistic approach about the realities of life.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19075283 - 11/02/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think nihilism is extremely misunderstood. I find the philosophy to be freeing. I am no more depressed then the average person. In fact I would have to say that I may be happier then the average person. Pessimism and skepticism are paths to disillusion and nihilism is often the finished product. The first stages of nihilism can be hard on one's psyche. Think of it as nigredo. If one is able to sit down and truly examine nihilism the darkness begins to burn away. it is only the beginning stages of nihilism that nietchze deemed a disease of humanity.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19076102 - 11/02/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

but it quite easily evaporates through ecstasy

And vice versa.:sad:


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19076109 - 11/02/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
I think nihilism is extremely misunderstood. I find the philosophy to be freeing. I am no more depressed then the average person. In fact I would have to say that I may be happier then the average person. Pessimism and skepticism are paths to disillusion and nihilism is often the finished product. The first stages of nihilism can be hard on one's psyche. Think of it as nigredo. If one is able to sit down and truly examine nihilism the darkness begins to burn away. it is only the beginning stages of nihilism that nietchze deemed a disease of humanity.





You might be right. I'm going to get back to you on that. :satansmoking:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19076364 - 11/02/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's all wishy washy feelings and emotionalism, which has nothing to do with logic. Also nihilism has no negative connotations, that is entirely up to the individual.

How very discerning of you. NOT! :lol: "Wishy washy?" How precise and analytical. :rolleyes:  "Emotionalism?" Nothing emotional even stated. Perhaps you should look at the etymology of ecstasy from the Greek ecstasies.
Nihilsm comes with profoundly negative consequences to most every person I've encountered socially or therapeutically. There are no great nihilist philosophers as far as I can tell. In fact, a philosophical endeavor to describe reality is contrary to the basic position of nihilism. Why even bother? What would be the point? Who cares? I can see the emotional tenor of your response, and waving that nihilistic banner matches it. I wonder if you are out of your 20s yet. The nihilistic trend seems to be a correlate of late adolescent angst. Unfortunately, it also goes hand-in-hand with suicidal youth. It certainly is not a life-sustaining philosophy that has any capabilities for mind-expansion.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19076391 - 11/02/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but it quite easily evaporates through ecstasy

And vice versa.:sad:




Sorry Ice, I haven't had a complete reversal of ecstasy becoming meaninglessness. I have lows, losses, and periods of disharmony to be sure, but I've never had the opposite. Then again, unlike many people, I don't suffer from Bipolar Disorder in which these pendulum swings can occur with various rates and degrees. :shrug:


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19076409 - 11/02/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've never been so low that I could feel good again either. Vice versa it is.  I've had great highs go sour in a minute and vice versa.  That's just how life is designed it seems.  No highs without the lows and no lows without the highs.  (at some point)


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19077373 - 11/02/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Nihilsm comes with profoundly negative consequences to most every person I've encountered socially or therapeutically. There are no great nihilist philosophers as far as I can tell. In fact, a philosophical endeavor to describe reality is contrary to the basic position of nihilism. Why even bother? What would be the point? Who cares?



Most people can't handle nihilism as a philosophy so upon encountering it they choose a true world theory as an anti thesis philosophy. If you can handle it however, it becomes beautiful. I don't need an outside source to give me my purpose, I stand independent pursuing happiness for the sake of pursuing happiness. I don't live my life for implicit meaning, I live for my life for me. :shrug:



Why should a man require a divine purpose? Why should a man be born out of meaning? Why can't a man decide this for himself? I have but one destiny and that Is to dance with death, and until then, I shall dance this dance of life, if not for anything else but the simple pleasure of it.


Edited by Cactilove (11/02/13 10:10 PM)


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #19077385 - 11/02/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

Perhaps you should look at the etymology of ecstasy from the Greek ecstasies.




And what does this have to do with logical deduction? What you are suggesting is emotionalism.


Quote:

Nihilsm comes with profoundly negative consequences to most every person I've encountered socially or therapeutically.




And what does this have to do with the concept of nihilism? Your subjective interpretation of individuals who claim to be nihilists, what does this have to do with the idea its self?



There are no great nihilist philosophers as far as I can tell. In fact, a philosophical endeavor to describe reality is contrary to the basic position of nihilism.

Have you read the definition of nihilism? Are you even aware of the implication of the statement you've just made? Mereological nihilism is not philosophy? What the fuck are you talking about?


Quote:

I wonder if you are out of your 20s yet.




Impressive, you're already resorting to personalisms. I won't bother reporting you, by now you should be aware of this logical fallacy and there's nothing I can do or say to point out something so obvious.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19078743 - 11/03/13 03:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Quote:

Nihilsm comes with profoundly negative consequences to most every person I've encountered socially or therapeutically. There are no great nihilist philosophers as far as I can tell. In fact, a philosophical endeavor to describe reality is contrary to the basic position of nihilism. Why even bother? What would be the point? Who cares?



Most people can't handle nihilism as a philosophy so upon encountering it they choose a true world theory as an anti thesis philosophy. If you can handle it however, it becomes beautiful. I don't need an outside source to give me my purpose, I stand independent pursuing happiness for the sake of pursuing happiness. I don't live my life for implicit meaning, I live for my life for me. :shrug:



Why should a man require a divine purpose? Why should a man be born out of meaning? Why can't a man decide this for himself? I have but one destiny and that Is to dance with death, and until then, I shall dance this dance of life, if not for anything else but the simple pleasure of it.





This may be true and the rest of us need something to get us through the night. Certainly I'm not convinced by those who believe in a higher power. Then can't agree on squat.  It's all an open question for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/03/13 03:21 AM)


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19079937 - 11/03/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Just a question pertaining to human development. Many people go through stages of inner development during which time it is reflected by the music they listen to and the philosophies they adopt. Not every constructed weltanschauung deserves to be called a philosophy in its original Pythagorean sense as 'love of wisdom,' especially if that world-view simply constellate negative consequences. But of course, that is just my opinion, not your's. You needn't be so reactive. It was not an insult to inquire about your chronological age. One's philosophy of choice is often a manifestation of one's developmental timeline. I passed through a nihilistic phase, albeit, not a very articulated, elaborated one. Clearly you have read on this, either current or ancient exponents, and have taken a stance. I've simply made an inquiry of where you're coming from chronologically because I'm a human developmentalist and it's pertinent. :shrug: I don't make a secret out of my own age. It is what it is, and it can move into what developmental psychologist Erik Erickson differentiated as a stage of either Integrity or Despair. A philosophy or weltanschauung can have an enormous influence on how one develops across the lifespan.

Ecstasy is a condition that suggests 'being beside oneself,' in a transcendental ego sort of way. The elevated emotion yields to a more neutral clarity, at least in the way the Buddhists describe the Jhanas becoming increasingly subtle such that the bliss dissipates and yields to an indescribable (ineffable) clarity.

Are you are claiming to be a Mereological Nihilist? Clearly, you won't agree with much of anything I have to say philosophically. Maybe with Mereological essentialism, there would be some common understanding through Madhyamaka philosophy, although I am not wed to that either.


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Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/03/13 11:40 AM)


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19080254 - 11/03/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Just a question pertaining to human development. Many people go through stages of inner development during which time it is reflected by the music they listen to and the philosophies they adopt. Not every constructed weltanschauung deserves to be called a philosophy in its original Pythagorean sense as 'love of wisdom,' especially if that world-view simply constellate negative consequences. But of course, that is just my opinion, not your's. You needn't be so reactive. It was not an insult to inquire about your chronological age. One's philosophy of choice is often a manifestation of one's developmental timeline. I passed through a nihilistic phase, albeit, not a very articulated, elaborated one. Clearly you have read on this, either current or ancient exponents, and have taken a stance. I've simply made an inquiry of where you're coming from chronologically because I'm a human developmentalist and it's pertinent. :shrug: I don't make a secret out of my own age. It is what it is, and it can move into what developmental psychologist Erik Erickson differentiated as a stage of either Integrity or Despair. A philosophy or weltanschauung can have an enormous influence on how one develops across the lifespan.

Ecstasy is a condition that suggests 'being beside oneself,' in a transcendental ego sort of way. The elevated emotion yields to a more neutral clarity, at least in the way the Buddhists describe the Jhanas becoming increasingly subtle such that the bliss dissipates and yields to an indescribable (ineffable) clarity.

Are you are claiming to be a Mereological Nihilist? Clearly, you won't agree with much of anything I have to say philosophically. Maybe with Mereological essentialism, there would be some common understanding through Madhyamaka philosophy, although I am not wed to that either.




The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19083288 - 11/03/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19083427 - 11/03/13 11:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19083495 - 11/03/13 11:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.




Satisfactory enough for me, I'm apathetic toward this conversation.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19083919 - 11/04/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.



:banbanban:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19084989 - 11/04/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.



:banbanban:




So much for that relationship I referred to. :frown:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/04/13 01:05 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19084991 - 11/04/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.




Satisfactory enough for me, I'm apathetic toward this conversation.




Ditto.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19085004 - 11/04/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19085033 - 11/04/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.



:banbanban:




So much for that relationship is referred to. :frown:




Was that me?  I'm sure you deserved it then. Bad, bad boy :nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19085321 - 11/04/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The only reaction I've had has been to your personalism and seeming lack of understanding in regard to the simple concepts which make up nihilism. I've no firm stance on nihilism or any other philosophy and have not claimed to.

I try to be as transparent as possible without totally conflating my MtG persona with my professional one. I have been called all kinds of things, and accused of all kinds of things here. I have been banned for joking with someone with whom I have a relationship, by a moderator who was apparently looking for any opportunity to ban me. I explained my inquiry about your age, and hopefully the explanation was satisfactory.



:banbanban:




So much for that relationship is referred to. :frown:




Was that me?  I'm sure you deserved it then. Bad, bad boy :nono:




Well, let me ask you then, do you ever consume lemons? I often use them myself.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19085637 - 11/04/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I had a grapefruit this morning and that's kinda close. :shrug:  It potentiates my Kratom. :thumbup:  Seems to really work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19086045 - 11/04/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I had a grapefruit this morning and that's kinda close. :shrug:  It potentiates my Kratom. :thumbup:  Seems to really work.




Hey I have some grapefruit juice and some kratom, maybe will try. Not sure about drinking today


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19088170 - 11/05/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Instead of no meaning, what about infinite meaning.

This is logically much the same as nihilism but fundamentally different. One consciously chooses their meaning they give to the world, and which they will create, and will be valid in doing so.

Matchs up with the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Quantum philosophy.

Whereas nihilism seeks to destroy the artistic meaning we give to the universe by reducing it to nothing, a universe with infinite possibilities seems much more probable. As I have said before, nothing doesn't exist, and we shouldn't have 0 representing nothing but infinity instead.

so why say such a contradictory thing "meaning doesn't exist, or cannot be known" when we CLEARLY give very much meaning to everything we do. It can exist and it can be known, and it also cannot exist and cannot be known but even this..just because it seemingly takes away ones artistry, all meaning..irrelevant, is still an artistic creation.


The meaning created or chosen is still valid, and doesn't 'destroy' the artist, that is to say the human being.

So my logical argument against nihilism isn't necessarily against nihilism, but against the notion of 'nothing' actually existing. Because even in its definition, nothing is nothing, it does not exist and is not even observable in the universe. There is no such thing as a 'nothing' vacuum.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19088180 - 11/05/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nihilistic argument against nihilism.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19088653 - 11/05/13 04:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't your argument basically existentialism?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19089110 - 11/05/13 09:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think you understand nihilism. Go back and read my posts, I already addressed that issue.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19089778 - 11/05/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I had a grapefruit this morning and that's kinda close. :shrug:  It potentiates my Kratom. :thumbup:  Seems to really work.




So if I had said that Icelander eats grapefruit, that would be true, and would not be construed as an insult to your character, and I would not have been banned?  :shrug:  Anyway,  :calledajoke:  and you aren't really a sourpuss, you're just kind of sober. :grin: Of course, if you're taking kratom like a One-a-Day® vitamin, I'm not so sure of that sobriety. But, I haven't tried kratom yet, so I don't know what it's like. I just take L-Theanine every day, and there's no buzz to that.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19089924 - 11/05/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well I had nothing to do with that ban personally and don't remember details. I didn't flag it nor otherwise condone it if memory serves me.  You've pissed off those in power and that's rarely a good move.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/05/13 12:42 PM)


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19090604 - 11/05/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I believe in the book "The Fundamental Middle Way" translated by last name Garfield, Nagarjuna creates an argument for Mahayana Buddhism against Nihilism...And he does a damn good job IMO.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19090719 - 11/05/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I had nothing to do with that ban personally and don't remember details. I didn't flag it nor otherwise condone it if memory serves me.  You've pissed off those in power and that's rarely a good move.




Yeah, I know you didn't. :thumbup:  Water under the bridge, or over the dam. I declined the offer of moderator long ago, before spirituality-mysticism and philosophy-psychology-sociology split into two forums. I never wanted to be a boss. At the age of 18 months, I gave the white Fire Chief's hat to my new friend Paul to wear, while I donned the regular red helmet, the day we met and played fireman in December 1955. Some traits are constant throughout the lifespan. It's the same dynamic that steered me away from wanting to be a father and having to parent a child. I sublimated the desire to guide by becoming a counselor where I could remain fairly detached.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19090922 - 11/05/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Instead of no meaning, what about infinite meaning.

This is logically much the same as nihilism but fundamentally different. One consciously chooses their meaning they give to the world, and which they will create, and will be valid in doing so.

Matchs up with the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Quantum philosophy.

Whereas nihilism seeks to destroy the artistic meaning we give to the universe by reducing it to nothing, a universe with infinite possibilities seems much more probable. As I have said before, nothing doesn't exist, and we shouldn't have 0 representing nothing but infinity instead.

so why say such a contradictory thing "meaning doesn't exist, or cannot be known" when we CLEARLY give very much meaning to everything we do. It can exist and it can be known, and it also cannot exist and cannot be known but even this..just because it seemingly takes away ones artistry, all meaning..irrelevant, is still an artistic creation.


The meaning created or chosen is still valid, and doesn't 'destroy' the artist, that is to say the human being.

So my logical argument against nihilism isn't necessarily against nihilism, but against the notion of 'nothing' actually existing. Because even in its definition, nothing is nothing, it does not exist and is not even observable in the universe. There is no such thing as a 'nothing' vacuum.




My thought on existential nihilism is in regards to an objective "meaning" to life which doesn't change from person to person.

I tend to think in terms of existential nihilism and feel that my life has more meaning and depth now than it did before that change in mind


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