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Repertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Brambolinie] 1
#19047830 - 10/28/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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3) i am sorry but placebo simply isnt a logical explanation for neuroplasticity and increase in cortical thickness as well as cognition. Some studies in meditation have pointed to the ability of hsbitual meditators to finction on 5 hours of sleep as if they had 8 full hours of sleep. Placebo could explain blood pressure and reduced stress. But neuroplasticity?
Placebo was just the tip of the iceberg, improvements in brain function can be explained in a number of ways within the bounds of logic. I don't see any reason to give credence to the idea that magic is involved, its wishful thinking.
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topdog82
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Quote:
Brambolinie said: I'm not trying to attack you or anything, but you said you used to get fucked up 24/7 on amps and weed. I think it makes a world of difference for your 'neuroplasticity' now that you've quit that habit.
not only was i referring to my own brain. But more importantly I was referring to studies that have been done which evaluate the long term positive effects of meditation. i cant subjectively tell that neuroplasticity increased. I felt i was thinking more clearly, and being more productive. It was only later after looking at the studies I found out that neurplasticity was improved
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OrgoneConclusion said: Got to www.Skepdic.com and look up acupuncture.
Thanks Ill look it up
Edited by topdog82 (10/28/13 08:01 PM)
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topdog82
Death Spirit



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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89]
#19048636 - 10/28/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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hahahahaha. "magic"
It isn't magic. It is a logical science. almost as logical as the chemistry textbook I was reading. And much more believable than concepts in physics like the uncertainty principle
As energy is absorbed from the sun, it gets transferred to plants, or producers. Then animals eat those plants. then second level consumers eat those animals. Then those animals decompose. Each one of the organisms that is farther from the source of the sun has to eat more and recieve less energy
Why the fuck am I bringing this up? Because this is the very principle by which the three energies of sattwa, tamas, and rajas are based on. A concept that we learned in our first grade ecology is the very base of the way auyurveda categoerizes foods
This is just one very simple example in which auyurveda has a logical basis
The organisms that are closer to the sun have a higher "lifeforce". And hence those organisms that are closest to the sun's energy and have the purest and cleanest energy. In case you havent noticed, we never really eat secondary consumers on a regular basis for a reason.
Meanwhile western science says we should have a colorful diet. "Eat food. Not too much. mostly plants" as micheal pollan would say. So the two sciences. Both very logical. One involves energies. Other involves biochmeistry. Both lead to the same answer
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: 3) i am sorry but placebo simply isnt a logical explanation for neuroplasticity and increase in cortical thickness as well as cognition. Some studies in meditation have pointed to the ability of hsbitual meditators to finction on 5 hours of sleep as if they had 8 full hours of sleep. Placebo could explain blood pressure and reduced stress. But neuroplasticity?
Placebo was just the tip of the iceberg, improvements in brain function can be explained in a number of ways within the bounds of logic. I don't see any reason to give credence to the idea that magic is involved, its wishful thinking.
HOW can these improvements be explained? These arenot just functional improvments. These are physiological changes in the structure of the brain...
I could bring up the study if you would like. But the cortical thickness in induviduals was directly correlated to the amount of time that they had meditated. Cortical thickness and neuroplasticity arent things that can be played with and increased at will
And more importantly, the changes in brain function have already been explained by logic. Just a logic you havent bothered to study. A science that you are choosing to be ignorant of by dubbing it "magic" and not reading a single page of the auyurveda
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18953318
COULD meditation be explained by western medicine? Yes. In due time. But not for at least a couple decades
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19048659 - 10/28/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quite literally, sustained meditation leads to something called neuroplasticity, which is defined as the brain's ability to change, structurally and functionally, on the basis of environmental input.
For much of the last century, scientists believed that the brain essentially stopped changing after adulthood.
But research by University of Wisconsin neuroscientist Richard Davidson has shown that experienced meditators exhibit high levels of gamma wave activity and display an ability -- continuing after the meditation session has attended -- to not get stuck on a particular stimulus. That is, they're automatically able to control their thoughts and reactiveness.
A 2005 study on American men and women who meditated a mere 40 minutes a day showed that they had thicker cortical walls than non-meditators. What this meant is that their brains were aging at a slower rate. Cortical thickness is also associated with decision making, attention and memory.
In a 2006 study, college students were asked to either sleep, meditate or watch TV. They were then tested on their alertness by being asked to hit a button every time a light flashed on a screen. The meditators did better than the nappers and TV watchers -- by a whole 10 percent.
In 2008, Dr. Randy Zusman, a doctor at the Massachusetts General Hospital, asked patients suffering from high blood pressure to try a meditation-based relaxation program for three months. These were patients whose blood pressure had not been controlled with medication.
After meditating regularly for three months, 40 of the 60 patients showed significant drops in blood pressure levels and were able to reduce some of their medication. The reason? Relaxation results in the formation of nitric oxide which opens up your blood vessels.
Telomeres -- the protective caps at the end of our chromosomes -- are the new frontier of anti-aging science. Longer telomeres mean that you're also likely to live longer.
Research done by the University of California, Davis' Shamatha Project has shown that meditators have significantly higher telomerase activity that non-meditators. Telomerase is the enzyme that helps build telomeres, and greater telomerase activity can possibly translate into stronger and longer telomeres .
It Can Slow The Progression Of HIV A 2008 study on HIV positive patients found that, after an eight-week meditation course, patients who'd meditated showed no decline in lymphocyte content compared with non-meditators who showed significant reduction in lymphocytes.
Lymphocytes or white blood cells are the "brain" of the body's immune system, and are particularly important for HIV positive people.
The study also found that lymphocyte levels actually went up with each meditation session.
However, due to the small sample size -- only 48 volunteers -- it's harder to draw definitive conclusions.
Its Pain Relieving Properties Beat MorphIne Earlier this year, a study conducted by Wake Forest Baptist University found that meditation could reduce pain intensity by 40 percent and pain unpleasantness by 57 percent. Morphine and other pain-relieving drugs typically show a pain reduction of 25 percent.
Meditation works by reducing activity in the somatosensory cortex and increasing activity in other areas of the brain.
This study also had a small sample size, making it harder to draw definite conclusions.
Dont worry tho. All of those studies are bullshit. Its just placebo and increased oxygen intake
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Withinity
Untitled

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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19049532 - 10/28/13 10:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why wont this thread die already!!!
Burn it with fire
Inject it with a poison
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19049546 - 10/28/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone is arguing that there are not massive benefits to practicing, meditation. This is well documented. I think what is being argued is that it is eastern medicine or chi that is responsible for the effects. To my knowledge there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that chi even exists, so why would you assume that this was what is responsible...
As far as acupuncture goes, I absolutely believe it works. I have had it done and experienced amazing results. It is similar to a deep massage. There is nothing magic about it at all. I go in with sore muscles and leave feeling a lot better. However, there is something so much more awesome about getting acupuncture done by attractive asian women with scented oils and what not. OC is wrong in that sense in my opinion. Beautiful asian woman can definitely lead to a more pleasurable experience then and old wrinkly hippie.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Cactilove]
#19049774 - 10/28/13 11:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cactilove said: I don't think anyone is arguing that there are not massive benefits to practicing, meditation. This is well documented. I think what is being argued is that it is eastern medicine or chi that is responsible for the effects. To my knowledge there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that chi even exists, so why would you assume that this was what is responsible...
As far as acupuncture goes, I absolutely believe it works. I have had it done and experienced amazing results. It is similar to a deep massage. There is nothing magic about it at all. I go in with sore muscles and leave feeling a lot better. However, there is something so much more awesome about getting acupuncture done by attractive asian women with scented oils and what not. OC is wrong in that sense in my opinion. Beautiful asian woman can definitely lead to a more pleasurable experience then and old wrinkly hippie. 
Repitoire89 made it quite clear that the benefits of meditation were placebo and increased oxygen. NOT anything more than that. That is why I have been agrueing the opposite side so firmly
Lets dissect your statement here. You say chi doesn't "exist"
Chemistry doesnt exist. Atoms dont exist either. 'atom' is just label that we have slapped on to particles that make up the universe. So technically atoms dont exist at all. We assume they 'exist' because the underlying theories of the atoms interact to form compounds seem to be logical and have empirical proof to them.
Similarly, the eastern idea of "chi" doesnt exist in a physical form like atoms. But its effects and behavior can be documented in a number of areas. For the sake of simiplicity i chose meditation
Both atoms and energies are constructs that people have created. they dont actually exist. That is why both construct can so easily connect and come to the same conclusions on the same subject
Even physical matter itself itself is mere waves of energy (...right?). it isnt exactly concrete and solid
Edited by topdog82 (10/28/13 11:56 PM)
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SuperD
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19050800 - 10/29/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chemistry doesnt exist. Atoms dont exist either.
Wrong and wrong.
Quote:
'atom' is just label that we have slapped on to particles that make up the universe.
Right!
Quote:
So technically atoms dont exist at all.
Wrong.
Atoms and chemistry do indeed exist. You had it right the first time by saying the word atom is just the label we give it. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, but it does exist. If we all decided to rename the word atom to hejamackloosa, it doesn't cause all of atoms in the universe to cease to exist. They're still the same, the only thing that changes is the label we affix to them.
Similar to how trees exist, regardless of what we label them as. They aren't changing form or poofing out of existence simply because we rename them to something else.
--------------------
   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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Repertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19050967 - 10/29/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Repitoire89 made it quite clear that the benefits of meditation were placebo and increased oxygen. NOT anything more than that. That is why I have been agrueing the opposite side so firmly
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topdog82
Death Spirit



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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: SuperD]
#19050971 - 10/29/13 08:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SuperD said:
Quote:
Chemistry doesnt exist. Atoms dont exist either.
Wrong and wrong.
Quote:
'atom' is just label that we have slapped on to particles that make up the universe.
Right!
Quote:
So technically atoms dont exist at all.
Wrong.
Atoms and chemistry do indeed exist. You had it right the first time by saying the word atom is just the label we give it. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, but it does exist. If we all decided to rename the word atom to hejamackloosa, it doesn't cause all of atoms in the universe to cease to exist. They're still the same, the only thing that changes is the label we affix to them.
Similar to how trees exist, regardless of what we label them as. They aren't changing form or poofing out of existence simply because we rename them to something else.
lol good point. I see the flaw in my thought process
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89]
#19050976 - 10/29/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
topdog82 said:
So I sat down for 20 minutes a day and focused on my breahting. please use western science to deduce how exactly doing that would make me see the beauty in others. Or pull me out of borderline suicidaldepression and drug abuse 
First, the increased oxygen intake will improve your physiological health. Second, there's the placebo.
Did you really need anyone to point this out? Your entire post is riddled with wishful thinking motivated by death anxiety, twisting around trivial and well known occurrences into grander things to justify beliefs in the supranatural.
Have at it, personally I prefer to look at the truth of the matter. What I actually know and can deduce with reason, without stopping short for comfort.
What was that?
Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Repitoire89 made it quite clear that the benefits of meditation were placebo and increased oxygen. NOT anything more than that. That is why I have been agrueing the opposite side so firmly

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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Posts: 4,826
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
#19051149 - 10/29/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lets dissect your statement here. You say chi doesn't "exist"
No, I didn't. I said there is no evidence for it.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Cactilove]
#19051322 - 10/29/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cactilove said: To my knowledge there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that chi even exists, so why would you assume that this was what is responsible...
Quote:
Cactilove said:
Quote:
Lets dissect your statement here. You say chi doesn't "exist"
No, I didn't. I said there is no evidence for it.
Maybe i read what you were saying wrong. I assumed that you were implying it so my bad
and the evidence is the effects of meditation lol
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: SuperD]
#19051393 - 10/29/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SuperD said:
Quote:
Chemistry doesnt exist. Atoms dont exist either.
Wrong and wrong.
Quote:
'atom' is just label that we have slapped on to particles that make up the universe.
Right!
Quote:
So technically atoms dont exist at all.
Wrong.
Atoms and chemistry do indeed exist. You had it right the first time by saying the word atom is just the label we give it. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, but it does exist. If we all decided to rename the word atom to hejamackloosa, it doesn't cause all of atoms in the universe to cease to exist. They're still the same, the only thing that changes is the label we affix to them.
Similar to how trees exist, regardless of what we label them as. They aren't changing form or poofing out of existence simply because we rename them to something else.
Well I hate to be a stickler, but technically, atoms dont exist either. They are made up of subatomic particles that are ultimately waves of energy. They don't exist in the way that textbooks paint them out to exist watsoever. its simply too abstrct of a concept to leave unprocessed. We simplfy the idea so that we can say Na + Cl makes table salt
Ie land does exist in the area of the state of massachusetts. But massachusetts is a construct that was devised to simplify governing over the states
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Diploid
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] 2
#19051462 - 10/29/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
topdog82 said: Repitoire89 made it quite clear that the benefits of meditation were placebo and increased oxygen.
I don't think he said anything of the sort. You would benefit from reading more carefully as you seem to be reading and arguing things that are not even on the table.
Quote:
topdog82 said: Lets dissect your statement here. You say chi doesn't "exist"
And again, you are making things up that are not being said. There's a huge difference between "it doesn't exist" and "there is no evidence that it exists."
Read more carefully. It will save many pages of noise clarifying what was already clearly stated. 
Quote:
topdog82 said: They are made up of subatomic particles that are ultimately waves of energy.
Actually, they're both. Which variety is observed depends on the experimental setup, but both are properties of matter. I don't think you quite understand how this works.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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topdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Diploid]
#19051490 - 10/29/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Quote:
topdog82 said: Repitoire89 made it quite clear that the benefits of meditation were placebo and increased oxygen.
I don't think he said anything of the sort. You would benefit from reading more carefully as you seem to reading and arguing things that are not even on the table.
Quote:
topdog82 said: Lets dissect your statement here. You say chi doesn't "exist"
And again, you are making things up that are not being said. There's a huge difference between "it doesn't exist" and "there is no evidence that it exists."
Read more carefully. It will save many pages of noise clarifying what was already clearly stated. 
I thought it was implied 
And there is evidence of it existing. Both eastern and western science have identified meditation to have benefits. The empirical evidence is there. From there it is just a matter of avid explanation
I dont think people are getting that both energies and western science can coexist. I am yet to come up with something where they both suggest opposite things. Both are constructs to explain what we observe. And both seem to do a good job of it. Only difference is that energies arent physically tangible in the same way that chemicals are so it is a little bit harder to believe
and repitoire did in fact make it clear that he attributed the positive effects to self-fullfilling prophecy, wishful thinking, placebo, and increased oxygen intake
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Diploid
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] 2
#19051607 - 10/29/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I thought it was implied
Well, this is philosophical debate. Precision of formulation is critical. If you read more than is written, you're just going to waste effort debating things not in dispute.
And there is evidence of it existing. Both eastern and western science have identified meditation to have benefits.
Again, you're misreading. From what I see in this thread, no one disputes this. What is in dispute is the origin of those benefits. You seem to be claiming they come from magical powers of meditation (which are NOT in evidence) while others are claiming that what IS supported by evidence is that meditation has physiological/biochemical benefits that are firmly rooted in science and biology, not magic.
I dont think people are getting that both energies and western science can coexist.
And again, you seem to be using magical explanations with words like "energies". What the hell are "energies"?
The word energy has a very clear and unambiguous definition. If you're going to change the standard definition of a well-defined word, you should start by telling us exactly what the new definition is. Otherwise you might as well use the word "snarkblogin" instead of energy for all the confusion that an undefined word brings to the discussion.
and repitoire did in fact make it clear that he attributed the positive effects to self-fullfilling prophecy, wishful thinking, placebo, and increased oxygen intake
First, what he actually said (which you AGAIN misread and embellished for some reason) is that ascribing magic to the benefits of meditation is wishful thinking and unsupported by any evidence, not that the benefits of meditation are wishful thinking. Read more carefully. Missing these subtleties in what was actually written vs what you want to argue against is pointless. 
Second, he pointed out that "Placebo / self-fulfilling prophesy" is supported by the available evidence given by western medicine, which it is. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence that it is magic.
Read more carefully. It will save everyone a lot of typing. /sigh
Only difference is that energies arent physically tangible
Translation: energies are magic. 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,432
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Diploid]
#19051660 - 10/29/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Otherwise you might as well use the word "snarkblogin" instead of energy
Sorry, but that word is already taken:

East Atlantic Crook Tooth Snarkblogin
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] 1
#19051762 - 10/29/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
topdog82 said:
Quote:
SuperD said:
Quote:
Chemistry doesnt exist. Atoms dont exist either.
Wrong and wrong.
Quote:
'atom' is just label that we have slapped on to particles that make up the universe.
Right!
Quote:
So technically atoms dont exist at all.
Wrong.
Atoms and chemistry do indeed exist. You had it right the first time by saying the word atom is just the label we give it. Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, but it does exist. If we all decided to rename the word atom to hejamackloosa, it doesn't cause all of atoms in the universe to cease to exist. They're still the same, the only thing that changes is the label we affix to them.
Similar to how trees exist, regardless of what we label them as. They aren't changing form or poofing out of existence simply because we rename them to something else.
Well I hate to be a stickler, but technically, atoms dont exist either. They are made up of subatomic particles that are ultimately waves of energy. They don't exist in the way that textbooks paint them out to exist watsoever. its simply too abstrct of a concept to leave unprocessed. We simplfy the idea so that we can say Na + Cl makes table salt
Ie land does exist in the area of the state of massachusetts. But massachusetts is a construct that was devised to simplify governing over the states
You were wrong in your reasoning and logic about why atoms don't exist. There's no need to try and wiggle your way out of it. I'm often wrong on many things myself. It happens from time to time so it's best to just accept that you made a mistake and move on.
--------------------
   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: SuperD] 3
#19051775 - 10/29/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
it's best to just accept that you made a mistake and move on.

Do you know what forum you are in?
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