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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: johnm214]
#19055289 - 10/30/13 12:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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Kickle said: It isn't proven by the experiment, of course not. It is dependent upon an experiment taking place however. It is a part of the scientific method and cannot understand any attempt to seperate it from the method itself. I fail to see the relevence of the null hypothesis without a tested hypothesis.
Like saying that a contract is null and void but there isn't any contract around. Well yep, the invalidity is there, but...huh?
Well yeah, but I think that's cuz orgone overstated the reality in his posts. He claimed you presume the null rather than presume it cannot be excluded untill sufficient evidence shows otherwise.
Must be a lack of education.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#19063674 - 10/31/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion said: Not sure why other than poor education.
The NH does NOT require certainty (a common fallacy presented numerous times in the recent thread) nor does it mean it is true. It means that to be refuted, evidence MUST be presented to counter. It is THE default position.
Let's keep this simple. The Null Hypothesis can be used to mean there is nothing special going on. We can apply this to Life-after-death to link to a recent thread.
The NH would state there is no life after death.
Logic dictates that we accept this as fact until such time that the NH is refuted. Simple!
What does NOT come into play is the amount of emotion was has for or against a position nor the number of people who rail against the NH.
Only evidence is the tool that can crack the wall. Nothing else. Not books nor cool stories nor wishful thinking.
What do you mean,
"Logic dictates that we accept this as fact until such time that the NH is refuted. Simple!"
I am unaware of evidence supporting life after death, and I am unaware of any evidence supporting that there is not life after death, therefore I believe the best approach is to not accept either hypothesis.
To assume something doesn't exist because there is no evidence for it is more error prone than to neither assume it exists or assume it doesn't exist.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Freedom]
#19065092 - 10/31/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The BEST model based on current understanding is that life does not continue after death. It requires NO NEW INFORMATION to hold to this hypothesis. To put forward that there is life-after-death requires tons of new data not in evidence.
To put the two on an equal playing field or to be agnostic about them is to completely misunderstand the null hypothesis - hence this thread.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#19065424 - 10/31/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The BEST model based on current understanding is that life does not continue after death.
Explain...The current understanding is that there is no evidence for an afterlife therefor it is illogical to believe in an afterlife based on blind faith. The current understanding is not that there is no afterlife.
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It requires NO NEW INFORMATION to hold to this hypothesis.
Is there some ancient information that you have been enlightened to that allows you to rationally hold to this hypothesis? If not then I think you do need new information.
Why do you need evidence/new information? Well, because no evidence for an afterlife does not equal evidence for no afterlife.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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White Beard

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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Cactilove]
#19066649 - 10/31/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lets look at it the other way- lets say we have two groups- the control is a group of living people, and the group being studied is a group of dead people. The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between the two groups. Now we can preform experiments on both groups that test for life.
From wikipedia: "Any contiguous living system is called an organism. Organisms undergo metabolism, maintain homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations. More complex living organisms can communicate through various means."
The tests would come out that the two groups aren't the same- the dead group fails all the requirements for this definition. Thus, the null hypothesis is rejected: the two groups aren't the same, therefore there is no life after death.
I know, however, that many life after death beliefs define life differently. Such as a soul that can leave the body. However, there is also no evidence for a soul, which then would also have to be tested. The only experiment I know of is where some bloke weighed a body before and after it died and found that it lost mass, but his methods were questioned, and no one has been able to recreate his results using better methods and equipment, such as more sensitive scales.
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Cactilove
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: White Beard]
#19067172 - 10/31/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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In order to avoid a language barrier we can stop using the word life and start using the concept of a conscience existance after this one.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Cactilove]
#19067765 - 11/01/13 02:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Cactilove
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19067824 - 11/01/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Icelander
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19068676 - 11/01/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said:

-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19068907 - 11/01/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said:

"Members here still struggle..."
Prove it. Which members? When? Provide some evidence.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Cactilove]
#19068994 - 11/01/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cactilove said: In order to avoid a language barrier we can stop using the word life and start using the concept of a conscience existance after this one.
Then you'd have to supply a mechanism for consciousness to continue separate from the central nervous system. So first you'd have to test whether there is a soul, and then you'd have to test if the soul survives the destruction of the body. Don't know how this would be tested, however.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: White Beard]
#19069018 - 11/01/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
Cactilove said: In order to avoid a language barrier we can stop using the word life and start using the concept of a conscience existance after this one.
Then you'd have to supply a mechanism for consciousness to continue separate from the central nervous system.
I wasn't aware that we yet understood the connection between consciousness and the nervous system anyway, beyond "brain gets bumped, mind gets dim".
What is the mechanism?
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White Beard

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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19069131 - 11/01/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think we have a complete picture of whats going on (it's super complicated), but there seems to be a lot of evidence of a strong connection between consciousness and the brain. One example we all know, you take a drug, your mind changes. Another, like you said: "brain gets bumped, mind gets dim". Also, we can do brain scans now, and there is obvious differences in the brains of someone who is mentally ill and someone with a healthy mind.
Edited by White Beard (11/01/13 10:25 AM)
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Cactilove
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: White Beard]
#19070255 - 11/01/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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That is one of the main reasons why I remain agnostic on the issue. We do not have enough evidence to come to a stable conclusion. Until someone devises a test to prove that the brain is is inseparable from consciousness then I won't believe that nothing come after death, like wise until someone devises a test that proves consciousness goes on after death I won't believe that consciousness goes on after death.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Cactilove]
#19070367 - 11/01/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Until someone devises a test to prove that the brain is is inseparable from consciousness
Besides stroke, blunt force trauma, concussion, Alzheimer's and death? What else are you looking for?
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Icelander
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#19070481 - 11/01/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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He's looking for something to tell us what if anything happens to consciousness (as am I) after brain death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Icelander]
#19070665 - 11/01/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is like trying to separate width from a box without changing it.
One thing is an object(brain) and the other is a property (consciousness). There is not really a dilemma at all except the use of words over time have confused some people.
It is as if I have a piece of red paper and then burn it up and ask where did the red go.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#19070720 - 11/01/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Since this is all hypothetical anyway, let me give you a shitty metaphor. If you drop a radio and it gets damaged, thereby rendering it useless, does that mean the broadcast that was playing stops? Is the broadcast inseparable from the radio? Is the broadcast an inseperable property of the radio? Is consciousness and inseparable property of the brain? How do you know?
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Icelander
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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#19071005 - 11/01/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: It is like trying to separate width from a box without changing it.
One thing is an object(brain) and the other is a property (consciousness). There is not really a dilemma at all except the use of words over time have confused some people.
It is as if I have a piece of red paper and then burn it up and ask where did the red go.
you really can't equate the two because you can explain scientifically where the read went. Science doesn't try or is not capable enough to understand what is outside of physical life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Members here still struggle with the Null Hypothesis [Re: Icelander]
#19071882 - 11/01/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If an object is destroyed, it's properties are also simultaneously destroyed. They don't linger on in another dimension.
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