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InvisibleChowder963
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19186782 - 11/25/13 12:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Or I'm just not a nice person. I say what I want, you can try to categorize it however you want to dude lol. I'm a nice person its just it annoys me with how many people like this are on this forum, idk why I even give this forum the time of day, if I was your age I know I wouldn't, which makes me curious about your personality and life, what makes you feel the need to post on an online forum at such an old age? I'm assuming 30-40 right?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: millzy]
    #19186793 - 11/25/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nonetheless, tobacco is widely advertised.  Heroin would be, too.

I don't believe in legislating "attitude."  Society will create, alter, and abandon stigmas as society sees fit.  That is not the law's job.  All drugs could be made legal today, and heroin addicts would still be stigmatized...just like alcoholics are stigmatized despite alcohol's legal status.

As far as the black market, there are ways to combat that without full legalization.  Nonetheless, a black market will always exist as one does for alcohol and tobacco.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Chowder963]
    #19186799 - 11/25/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chowder963 said:
Or I'm just not a nice person. I say what I want, you can try to categorize it however you want to dude lol. I'm a nice person its just it annoys me with how many people like this are on this forum, idk why I even give this forum the time of day, if I was your age I know I wouldn't, which makes me curious about your personality and life, what makes you feel the need to post on an online forum at such an old age? I'm assuming 30-40 right?



So, now you're going after me?  Have at it, kid...Whatever strokes your ego and makes you feel better.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Chowder963]
    #19186826 - 11/25/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You know that these drugs are harmful to people and communities. The idea is to make it as hard as possible to get your hands on ( large pure quantities are not available on the local ghetto corner ). Risky to possess or sell. There is no way people would ever allow cocaine or heroin or speed to be sold at a store. Can't even prescribe them. These drugs can cause serious problems. I read the Chinese opium epidemic was pretty bad back in the day. I've used all 3 and I think they should remain illegal.


Edited by UziSuicide (11/25/13 12:36 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19186874 - 11/25/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Nonetheless, tobacco is widely advertised.  Heroin would be, too.

I don't believe in legislating "attitude."  Society will create, alter, and abandon stigmas as society sees fit.  That is not the law's job.  All drugs could be made legal today, and heroin addicts would still be stigmatized...just like alcoholics are stigmatized despite alcohol's legal status.

As far as the black market, there are ways to combat that without full legalization.  Nonetheless, a black market will always exist as one does for alcohol and tobacco.




heroin's presence and popularity in the market exists with or without advertisement. i think it would be fine to go as far as to prohibit any mass advertisement for recreational drugs. it's not like people don't already know. perhaps marketing regulations are one of the safety valves we would initially need with legalization. a sea change in how the public is educated regarding drug use could and should certainly be another safety valve in the event of legalization or decriminalization.

moreover, while you can't legislate attitude, you can legislate the conditions from which attitude arises. alcoholics are in no way stigmatized on the level of other drug addicts, and a big part of this is because alcohol is legal and therefore perceived as more acceptable than illicit drugs. legalization could foster a positive change in the way society views its addicts as a whole, which could then foster actual solutions to the problem of addiction.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: millzy]
    #19186892 - 11/25/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think it would be fine to prohibit mass advertisement for recreational drugs.  On the contrary, I think it would be a violation of the first amendment. 

I also think there are far more direct ways to attack addiction.  I'm not even convinced that reducing the stigma will reduce addiction.  It might very well increase use and therefore addiction.  Certainly when smoking carried no stigma, addiction to tobacco was rampant.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19186927 - 11/25/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Prevention is worth 10 times the cure. I don't know how you " attack addiction " anyways. Care to explain? In the western world we all know about drugs and drug addicts before highschool. So it's not a matter of education.


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: UziSuicide] * 1
    #19186938 - 11/25/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Primarily through education and readily available treatment, but certain demographics would also benefit from programs that offer alternative activities for at-risk youth.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19186971 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, all that exists here already. It can help of course, but I imagine it would be very much overrun and ineffective if suddenly these hard drugs became readily available to everyone and legal.

When it comes to adults, instead of working and paying taxes and buying stuff contributing to society and the economy. They are eating food, and living off of the people who are working.

As it stands the law makers agree and it's not going to change anytime soon. But it's worth speculating another reality.

I don't see why you would legalize it really. From a moral point of view anyways.


Edited by UziSuicide (11/25/13 01:16 PM)


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: UziSuicide]
    #19186985 - 11/25/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe in Vancouver, but in most of the U.S. treatment is very expensive or hard to get into, and education is limited.  Knowing about something isn't a replacement for education about it. 

As far as alternative activities, the communities that are hit hardest with heroin addiction in the U.S. are also the ones where teens have very little to do other than bang.

Quote:

UziSuicide said:
I don't see why you would legalize it really. From a moral point of view anyways.




I wouldn't, but I would also end the imprisonment of people for using drugs.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19186999 - 11/25/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What would you replace it with as a deterrent? A fine? BTW People aren't prosecuted for being high or being an addict of any sort. It's a matter of possession, could be selling and using how could anyone know? Basically you are arrested for being caught.


Edited by UziSuicide (11/25/13 01:22 PM)


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: UziSuicide]
    #19187016 - 11/25/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the protip, bro...

I wouldn't make possession a crime at all.  And yes, people can be arrested, charged, and convicted for being high.  It's called bodily possession, and it does happen...although not often.

As far as what to replace as a deterrent, incarceration isn't a deterrent, so it needs no replacement.  Heroin addicts will shoot up an hour before a scheduled probationary drug test, knowing it means they will fail and get locked up.  Jail/prison is not a deterrent for a drug addict, although it certainly can be for a drug manufacturer/seller.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19187028 - 11/25/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So you wouldn't legalize drugs, but you wouldn't punish possession. Bleh I don't know what you're saying now. Forget it.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: UziSuicide]
    #19187036 - 11/25/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't think it would be fine to prohibit mass advertisement for recreational drugs.  On the contrary, I think it would be a violation of the first amendment. 

I also think there are far more direct ways to attack addiction.  I'm not even convinced that reducing the stigma will reduce addiction.  It might very well increase use and therefore addiction.  Certainly when smoking carried no stigma, addiction to tobacco was rampant.




do you think regulating tobacco marketing is a violation of the first amendment?

the stigmatization of drug addicts obstructs avenues to potentially highly effective methods for addiction treatments. for example, one of the main reasons why ibogaine isn't legal for medical use here is because pharmaceuticals don't want their names associated with heroin addicts. while drugs like suboxone fly under the radar, ibogaine would be sensationalized because its a psychedelic as well as a psychedelic that can and does dramatically change addicts lives in short time. so a change in laws could lead to a change in attitude, which could lead to better solutions to the problem of addiction. and while you can speculate on drug usage rising with legalization, the fact remains that the only thing that has risen with prohibition is incarceration rates.

Quote:

UziSuicide said:
In the western world we all know about drugs and drug addicts before highschool. So it's not a matter of education.




what are you taught about drugs and drug addicts in school? that drugs are bad and drug addicts are terrible people. we can all see where that type of rhetoric has gotten us. along with legalization, education would be a key factor in harm reduction. the approach must be holistic because it's not just about legality but rather a slew of other things that need to be revised in order to bring us to a healthier approach to drugs and drug use in general. and that would include alchol. by no means do i think we handle alcohol appropriately. alcohol is swept under the rug in most families and lumped in with other drugs in grade school. it's no wonder why kids get to college with their first taste of freedom and go completely bonkers with binge drinking. countries where kids are introduced to alcohol from an early age don't have collegiate binge drinking. so when you say "it's not a matter of education," i'm not sure what you mean by that because, like any other issue, knowledge is power.


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OfflineUziSuicide
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: millzy]
    #19187056 - 11/25/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Am I missing something or is there some kind of special fucking education on drugs I don't know about.

Just what is it that's going to cure people's addictions in this education. What can we learn?

If anything it's a matter of determination and spirituality that helps people quit abusing whatever it is. We all know what needs to be done. You stop getting high. That's it. Taper off for physical dependence. It's elementary.


Edited by UziSuicide (11/25/13 01:39 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: millzy]
    #19187065 - 11/25/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't think it would be fine to prohibit mass advertisement for recreational drugs.  On the contrary, I think it would be a violation of the first amendment. 





do you think regulating tobacco marketing is a violation of the first amendment?


Tobacco is mass marketed.  It would be a violation of the first amendment if the government tried to ban mass marketing of tobacco, yes.
Quote:



the stigmatization of drug addicts obstructs avenues to potentially highly effective methods for addiction treatments. for example, one of the main reasons why ibogaine isn't legal for medical use here is because pharmaceuticals don't want their names associated with heroin addicts. while drugs like suboxone fly under the radar, ibogaine would be sensationalized because its a psychedelic as well as a psychedelic that can and does dramatically change addicts lives in short time. so a change in laws could lead to a change in attitude, which could lead to better solutions to the problem of addiction. and while you can speculate on drug usage rising with legalization, the fact remains that the only thing that has risen with prohibition is incarceration rates.


You may have a point about the treatment options, but it's not clear that the benefits from a lack of stigma would outweigh the harms.  Lack of stigma might very well increase usage exponentially.

Lets face facts.  More people are addicted to legal drugs than illegal drugs.  There's no disputing that reality.  The only question is whether the drugs are used more because they're legal or if they're legal because they're used more...or some external reason for both higher usage and legality.

My opinion on the issue is that legal drugs are used more because they don't have the same social consequences that illegal drugs do.  I also believe that if we remove the social consequences to using a drug like heroin, use will increase greatly.


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19187102 - 11/25/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i know we've discussed the cato paper on portugal before. if i recall correctly, i think usage has decreased since decriminalization. i would tend to think that under legalization it may decrease as well. but i also recall you saying that there was another study that showed that drug usage stayed the same under portugal's decriminalization policies. perhaps that would be the case with legalization here. i certainly can't predict the future, but my position is that prohibition is ineffective, monstrously harmful and decriminalization doesn't seem to completely address the problems that drugs bring to society.


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: millzy]
    #19187108 - 11/25/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you believe that legalization completely addresses the problems that drugs bring to society?


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OfflineBitter Cactus
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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Enlil]
    #19187395 - 11/25/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I honestly think decriminalizing it will do nothing. That is basically saying the users can possess personal amounts without problems, but where did they get it from? The dealers.. Dealers are not necessarily bad people, just businessmen taking up opportunities available to them. I remember back when I was younger, with an a quarter pound of weed, couple ounces of mushrooms, from Edmonton suburbs into my little town, that at any moment i could be pulled over and put in prison for a long fucking time. Was I bad for doing this? No! I liked helping people get the drugs they wanted, giving people introductions to the psychedelic experience. I have been to jail a few times, talking to many people learning their story. Some of them are in there with seven year sentences for distribution of large quantities of meth, heroin, weed, anything. I don't see them as bad people for doing that either.. I think they are actually just taking initiative to make their own money and it's really the only way of life they have known, due to prohibition putting power into the hands of the drug dealers. This is the life they know and they are simply living it.

Have we ever given freedom a chance? I don't believe so. We can legalize drug X, but not Y, but maybe Z, and think that will change anything. I've seen the destruction of alcohol, the destruction of meth, the destruction of heroin, ruin the lives of good friends around me. I have seen it take someone exactly like me to living on the streets. He gave me that last shot before he ran away and that was the last time I saw him.. Anyways, regardless of the impact these drugs have on people I still think they should be given a chance to be legalized. I know you guys have seen people have their lives destroyed by heroin and simply want it to not exist. You wish it were never there and don't want to face it and that's what legalization does. I live in Alberta, western Canada, and heroin isn't the problem. It's meth, it's everywhere and in my city everybody uses it and it's easier for me than weed to find. I sometimes think that it's a part of us no matter what. I think that all the problem surrounding the drug comes from acquiring it, which is the part I look forward to the least. When I actually have that bag in my hands I have probably spent the entire day setting things up, only to have them fall through, only to find somebody else. If I had a stack of bills, a magic wand to make them magically transform into my DOC,

I swear, swear, swear, most of the problems surrounding these drugs would be gone! Legalization would make acquiring them easier to the people who want them. Would you smoke crack if crack was legal? No. But anyways flame me all you want but my arguments just come from personal experience. I wish these problems didn't exist as much as the next guy but it's time we face up to them. It's the mother fucking elephant in the room.


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Edited by Bitter Cactus (11/25/13 02:50 PM)


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Re: My brother wrote me a letter telling me to quit drugs - here is my response [Re: Bitter Cactus]
    #19187429 - 11/25/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bitter Cactus said:
I honestly think decriminalizing it will do nothing.



It would stop a lot of people from going to jail for possession.  If that's "nothing" in your book, then you're right.

I personally think it is tragic the way that people are sent to jail for possession...obviously you don't see that as anything significant at all.


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