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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all 3
#19045567 - 10/28/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it's much more important to accept life as it is and seek pleasure than try to perfect or better ourselves to some abstract unclear definition of what is "good". I also think that most of those definitions are likely to be flat out bonkers or make believe. Either way, it's not worth the worry or the work. So relax fellow fuck ups.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19045628 - 10/28/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ima hab a gapefoot for beckfest.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19047120 - 10/28/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's much more important to accept life as it is and seek pleasure than try to perfect or better ourselves to some abstract unclear definition of what is "good". I also think that most of those definitions are likely to be flat out bonkers or make believe. Either way, it's not worth the worry or the work. So relax fellow fuck ups. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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desert father
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19053855 - 10/29/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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seek pleasure?
ok dorian grey.
-------------------- vi veri veniversum vivus vici What she said : "I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an Early death AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"
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Kickle
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19054052 - 10/29/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's much more important to accept life as it is and seek pleasure than try to perfect or better ourselves to some abstract unclear definition of what is "good". I also think that most of those definitions are likely to be flat out bonkers or make believe. Either way, it's not worth the worry or the work. So relax fellow fuck ups. 
Yeah I hear that. Why waste time trying to get to acceptance and happiness on the long and potentially misguided route? If I can.... then I will...
Just go straight at it
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19054104 - 10/29/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I had this exact same realization today...
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19054217 - 10/29/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree to a degree
The agressive, and I am using this word purposefully - the agressive pursuit of pleasure is degrading
I'm not going to eat an entire cake in a drunken daze - And that makes me better than the person that does.
People who pursuit pleasure agressively create bad karma and destroy the quality of their life.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19054267 - 10/29/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not going to eat an entire cake in a drunken daze - And that makes me better than the person that does.
That does not sound pleasurable at all...
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19054294 - 10/29/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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To some people it is 
To some, feeling like shit is pleasurable
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19054661 - 10/29/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I strongly disagree, to a degree.
I 'work' a lot on myself, but not because I have some idea of good or some standard, but because I have suffered a lot in my life and have had a lot of healing to do. I grow ill and suffer more if I don't tend my heavy heart and wounded spirit.
In the past, I have made the mistake of addressing my demons with pleasure, sex, drugs... More than once.
It's effects were no different than the drugs they put me on as a kid for my intense anger, which was born of my inability as a child to articulate the painful and complex emotions I was dealing with.
It treated the symptoms, it did not address the cause.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#19054807 - 10/29/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oops, I disagree actually. I was unclear about the definition of hedonism. I don't believe in an intrinsic good. 
I think seeking maximum pleasure is a valid philosophy. Why not get the most pleasure out of life as possible? Really, provide a logical argument against it.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19054905 - 10/29/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is this in response to me or a reply in general about the thread topic?
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#19055576 - 10/30/13 01:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pleasure doesn't exclusively mean intoxication and sugar and I wasn't using it in that sense. One of the best ways to enhance the amount of pleasure you can get out of life is to accept it as it appears to you IMO. But really I advocate any path that works for the individual. My point was that all too often we are trying to shoot for things just because they seem "morally right" to us or fit an ideal we have in our head, often we don't know this and it leads to pain overall.
Quote:
Yeah I hear that. Why waste time trying to get to acceptance and happiness on the long and potentially misguided route? If I can.... then I will...
Just go straight at it 
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19055649 - 10/30/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Both.
Quote:
Why not get the most pleasure out of life as possible? Really, provide a logical argument against it.
^^^^^^^ I want an logical argument against that from you specifically or anyone who has one I suppose.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19056227 - 10/30/13 05:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not going to happen
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19057123 - 10/30/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Utility principle seems pretty solid to me.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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cez

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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19057612 - 10/30/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The standards we hold ourselves to completely matter IMO. It's the foundation to our feelings.
We can surrender to the moment and all that jazz but I think it's much easier accepting/being in the moment when I am living within my relative standards. This is a comfort of the sorts and a clinging to the past, but it's part of the growing process IMO.
I ate like shit yesterday, I've been working out a lot and justified to myself that I needed the calories. I ate garbage and I tried accepting the fact I ate garbage. Easier said than done.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19058380 - 10/30/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Pleasure doesn't exclusively mean intoxication and sugar and I wasn't using it in that sense. One of the best ways to enhance the amount of pleasure you can get out of life is to accept it as it appears to you IMO. But really I advocate any path that works for the individual. My point was that all too often we are trying to shoot for things just because they seem "morally right" to us or fit an ideal we have in our head, often we don't know this and it leads to pain overall.
Indeed, this is exactly why I only disagree to a degree, the aspect I was talking about and you weren't.
People don't like to accept things as they are, and IMO its because much of life really isn't that pretty. In my experience, that just makes things more complicated and difficult.
Quote:
Cactilove said: Both.
Quote:
Why not get the most pleasure out of life as possible? Really, provide a logical argument against it.
^^^^^^^ I want an logical argument against that from you specifically or anyone who has one I suppose.
I really can't muster a genuine logical argument against it as it doesn't challenge or threaten any idea I hold. 
Only arguments I could think of are things I wouldn't personally argue, but could see people from a religiously indoctrinated background arguing.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#19067808 - 11/01/13 02:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I keep having the same conversation with my girl every time we trip together. She just can't let go of the guilt of feeling awesome. I really don't understand the idea of it? Just Why?
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19067870 - 11/01/13 03:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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One could only speculate... We can never be in her head and know her precise circumstances for feeling the way she does...
It's her trip, both figuratively and literally.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19068673 - 11/01/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I keep having the same conversation with my girl every time we trip together. She just can't let go of the guilt of feeling awesome. I really don't understand the idea of it? Just Why?
Did she have a religious upbringing?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070104 - 11/01/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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There's an underlying problem with self-improvement that I fell victim to. The concept of improving yourself implies that you're never good enough as you are as you exist at that moment. You're always striving to be someone else. How can you love someone you're not satisfied with?
For as much as I learned and changed because of my actions, more or less reflecting on my own life in a way that I relived it and decided what I could handle differently, I was never satisfied because I was always striving to grow as a person. Being unsatisfied is not a viable path to happiness.
Still wanting to evolve, I had to change my mentality to do so with peace of mind, but this wasn't learned until after a long and brutal 8 month period of ego death. To grow as a person doesn't require that you be judgmental towards yourself. When I stopped riding my own ass and let go of the need to become anything, I found that change happened regardless of my desire to change, and interestingly, in a way that I would have wanted to change if I had desired it (to become more loving with all that entails).
It naturally follows that when you learn to accept yourself as you are you'll be more willing to accept others as they are (a loving act). Practice makes perfect.
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19070205 - 11/01/13 02:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I keep having the same conversation with my girl every time we trip together. She just can't let go of the guilt of feeling awesome. I really don't understand the idea of it? Just Why?
I hung out with a friend while he was tripping and he said essentially the same thing. "I don't think that anyone is entitled to this much happiness." It did make me curious where that train of thought was coming from and he is a Christian.
If anything, I think it's guilt to see that all of the world is suffering while realizing that you're no longer having to deal with it. You want to help them but some part of you believes that you should feel what they're feeling in order to do so.
When I trip it's the opposite. I realize they're suffering and feel silly about it because I know it's a choice, merely how you perceive the world. Shrooms obliterate the past and any notion of a future, thus eliminating your burdens while forcing you to live in the moment. Moderate doses are essentially a watered down Oneness experience. The stillness of everything is the same, time slows down rather than stops, and your sense of love for everything is greatly heightened without quite reaching the infinite love state.
In that state of being, it's so hard for me to feel bad. I can ask, "why so sad?" but I can't do it without giggling at how absurd it is that I'm asking while already knowing the answer. Burdens are a bitch that we've been conditioned to accept as normal. "Everyone's got problems." Just because they do doesn't mean that they should. You could let them all go, but it's not such an easy feat to accomplish.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070274 - 11/01/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
When I trip it's the opposite. I realize they're suffering and feel silly about it because I know it's a choice, merely how you perceive the world. Shrooms obliterate the past and any notion of a future, thus eliminating your burdens while forcing you to live in the moment. Moderate doses are essentially a watered down Oneness experience. The stillness of everything is the same, time slows down rather than stops, and your sense of love for everything is greatly heightened without quite reaching the infinite love state.
Ya, right. Ignorance is bliss isn't it. If you just said what I think you said then what you just said was painfully naive.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19070298 - 11/01/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Explain yourself and I'll be happy to respond. It's hard for me to know what you think I said.
Actually, it's the exact of opposite of ignorance being bliss. It's the realization of the truth that brings bliss.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070495 - 11/01/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I realize they're suffering and feel silly about it because I know it's a choice,
How exactly do you know they have a choice in the matter?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070566 - 11/01/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Unless they have a mental illness, and only then a few certain types in that case, then they have a choice in how they perceive the world. It's only through perception that you can perceive suffering.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070675 - 11/01/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Then you wouldn't mind if I capped you in the knee would you? I mean seeing as suffering as a choice, you could choose not to suffer from the pain. Better yet can we air drop you into Ethiopia with no money, no way to get home, and with no food and water. You can totally just choose not to suffer from starvation right? You know because you can satiate your need for food and water with your near infinite love? Some people are born and all they do is starve to death. That is suffering, are you really going to argue that it is their choice to do so? Out of curiosity have you ever been on the brink of starvation with no way to get food? Do you have any idea how painful that is?
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070817 - 11/01/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I keep having the same conversation with my girl every time we trip together. She just can't let go of the guilt of feeling awesome. I really don't understand the idea of it? Just Why?
Did she have a religious upbringing?
Ya she was brought up catholic (in fact her sister is becoming a nun), but after all the decent love that was eaten between the 2 of us somewhere along the way she's shed that shell. But I guess that old "habits" die hard.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Cactilove]
#19070844 - 11/01/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not entirely. A part of me would be pissed off at you that it happened but another part would understand that deep down you didn't do it on purpose, you're lack of love that you displayed was merely a result of the love you failed to receive. Understanding dissipates the former.
Physical pain wasn't the type of suffering that I was referencing, obviously. Even so, if it happened at random and someone I didn't know capped me in the knee for no apparent reason, I'd laugh inside despite the physical pain. It's pretty absurd situation to find yourself in. Something along the lines of, "just another day on planet Earth" would cross my mind and I'd crack up, but not as much so as if I were on shrooms because I'd be less burdened by egotistical nonsense.
It sounds to me as though you're taking life too seriously. Where did you ever get that notion?
I can't argue that someone chose to be born to starve to death any more than you can argue that they didn't. I don't know the specifics of incarnating. However, I do accept that the struggles and hardships of my own life provided me with the greatest opportunities to learn. If everything was perfect, who would seek to change that and thus learn something new?
Since you seem hell-bent on using the starving to death example, they didn't have to starve to death. You, me, and everyone else on this planet who chose to do nothing about it let them.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070872 - 11/01/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Unless they have a mental illness, and only then a few certain types in that case, then they have a choice in how they perceive the world. It's only through perception that you can perceive suffering.
I'm afraid that's not quite true. Unconscious conditions from childhood trauma could easily make choice impossible on a conscious level. I don't think you know wtf you're talking about.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070889 - 11/01/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ditto to you. Name such a condition.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#19070890 - 11/01/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: I keep having the same conversation with my girl every time we trip together. She just can't let go of the guilt of feeling awesome. I really don't understand the idea of it? Just Why?
Did she have a religious upbringing?
Ya she was brought up catholic (in fact her sister is becoming a nun), but after all the decent love that was eaten between the 2 of us somewhere along the way she's shed that shell. But I guess that old "habits" die hard.
Especially in childhood patterning, old habits may never die. This is usually the case and explains how people may want to change but ultimately can not or achieve only a very partial change.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070898 - 11/01/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Not entirely. A part of me would be pissed off at you that it happened but another part would understand that deep down you didn't do it on purpose, you're lack of love that you displayed was merely a result of the love you failed to receive. Understanding dissipates the former.
Physical pain wasn't the type of suffering that I was referencing, obviously. Even so, if it happened at random and someone I didn't know capped me in the knee for no apparent reason, I'd laugh inside despite the physical pain. It's pretty absurd situation to find yourself in. Something along the lines of, "just another day on planet Earth" would cross my mind and I'd crack up, but not as much so as if I were on shrooms because I'd be less burdened by egotistical nonsense.
It sounds to me as though you're taking life too seriously. Where did you ever get that notion?
I can't argue that someone chose to be born to starve to death any more than you can argue that they didn't. I don't know the specifics of incarnating. However, I do accept that the struggles and hardships of my own life provided me with the greatest opportunities to learn. If everything was perfect, who would seek to change that and thus learn something new?
Since you seem hell-bent on using the starving to death example, they didn't have to starve to death. You, me, and everyone else on this planet who chose to do nothing about it let them.
You let them starve to death? That makes you a pretty nasty individual in my book.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070910 - 11/01/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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That argument about childhood circumstances causing old habits to never die is self-defeating. If one person overcomes their childhood traumas then the rest are equally capable. Not wanting to deal with the hell involved with it isn't the same as being incapable. A certain drug that used to be used for therapeutical purposes took the hell out of it, that drug being ecstasy.
Logically, it's not hard to understand how it works either. If your brain releases a shit ton of the feel good chemical then you're not going to be crippled with pain while confronting your issues.
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070915 - 11/01/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Ara16w said: Not entirely. A part of me would be pissed off at you that it happened but another part would understand that deep down you didn't do it on purpose, you're lack of love that you displayed was merely a result of the love you failed to receive. Understanding dissipates the former.
Physical pain wasn't the type of suffering that I was referencing, obviously. Even so, if it happened at random and someone I didn't know capped me in the knee for no apparent reason, I'd laugh inside despite the physical pain. It's pretty absurd situation to find yourself in. Something along the lines of, "just another day on planet Earth" would cross my mind and I'd crack up, but not as much so as if I were on shrooms because I'd be less burdened by egotistical nonsense.
It sounds to me as though you're taking life too seriously. Where did you ever get that notion?
I can't argue that someone chose to be born to starve to death any more than you can argue that they didn't. I don't know the specifics of incarnating. However, I do accept that the struggles and hardships of my own life provided me with the greatest opportunities to learn. If everything was perfect, who would seek to change that and thus learn something new?
Since you seem hell-bent on using the starving to death example, they didn't have to starve to death. You, me, and everyone else on this planet who chose to do nothing about it let them.
You let them starve to death? That makes you a pretty nasty individual in my book. 
What was it that you did about it?
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070967 - 11/01/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't hold the same opinions about not feeding other humans.
I consider it a blessing not to feed them cause then they just reproduce and then another round of human suffering. I'm one of the good guys.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070975 - 11/01/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Ditto to you. Name such a condition.
I did explain it. Any decent psychologist will affirm it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070977 - 11/01/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Already refuted that one.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070984 - 11/01/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If one person overcomes their childhood traumas then the rest are equally capable.
This comes from shear ignorance imo. There are so many factors in human psychology that no two people can ever be alike or we all would be. This kind of black and white view of our human psychology is youthful folly.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070986 - 11/01/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Already refuted that one.
Wrong
Btw I know people who have had bad experiences with ecstasy.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/01/13 05:13 PM)
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19070995 - 11/01/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't hold the same opinions about not feeding other humans.
I consider it a blessing not to feed them cause then they just reproduce and then another round of human suffering. I'm one of the good guys. 
It's not like it cost a fortune to feed them..
Having to currently be dependent on the illusory concept of economics, we should have went the way of Asia. Farming insects is dirt cheap. They can't all taste terrible and it's by far healthier protein than what the American diet consists of. At least they'd be eating real food instead of food product.
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19070998 - 11/01/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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In this day and age it's hard to say what's ecstasy and what isn't unless they tested it every time.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071016 - 11/01/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I don't hold the same opinions about not feeding other humans.
I consider it a blessing not to feed them cause then they just reproduce and then another round of human suffering. I'm one of the good guys. 
It's not like it cost a fortune to feed them..
Having to currently be dependent on the illusory concept of economics, we should have went the way of Asia. Farming insects is dirt cheap. They can't all taste terrible and it's by far healthier protein than what the American diet consists of. At least they'd be eating real food instead of food product.
Then go do it and quit talking about it. I don't believe it myself. Ignorant humans will always over breed their environment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ara16w
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19071018 - 11/01/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Icelander said: If one person overcomes their childhood traumas then the rest are equally capable.
This comes from shear ignorance imo. There are so many factors in human psychology that no two people can ever be alike or we all would be. This kind of black and white view of our human psychology is youthful folly.
That wasn't even an argument. It was just "no" repeated in the form of a lot of trivial words. The basis for human psychology is the same or psychology wouldn't work at all. Every human being starts off the same way, a blank slate. Environment and to a lesser role genetics determines the person they will become.
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071023 - 11/01/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ara16w said: In this day and age it's hard to say what's ecstasy and what isn't unless they tested it every time.
I've used it a lot and it's always tested as pure or I and my friends don't use it and I know of two people who had melt downs on it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19071047 - 11/01/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Ara16w said:
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Icelander said: I don't hold the same opinions about not feeding other humans.
I consider it a blessing not to feed them cause then they just reproduce and then another round of human suffering. I'm one of the good guys. 
It's not like it cost a fortune to feed them..
Having to currently be dependent on the illusory concept of economics, we should have went the way of Asia. Farming insects is dirt cheap. They can't all taste terrible and it's by far healthier protein than what the American diet consists of. At least they'd be eating real food instead of food product.
Then go do it and quit talking about it. I don't believe it myself. Ignorant humans will always over breed their environment.
If the powerful interests that control this world wanted Africa fed then it'd be done already. Instead, we led a propaganda campaign against the only guy who wanted to see a strong independent and united Africa, and then murdered him. I think I'll pass for the time being. There's countless ways in which Africa could have been fed though. Instead, we've chosen to prolong the problem by sending them food rather than giving them the means to produce their own.
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19071062 - 11/01/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Elaborate. What's your definition of a melt down?
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071068 - 11/01/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said:
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Icelander said: If one person overcomes their childhood traumas then the rest are equally capable.
This comes from shear ignorance imo. There are so many factors in human psychology that no two people can ever be alike or we all would be. This kind of black and white view of our human psychology is youthful folly.
That wasn't even an argument. It was just "no" repeated in the form of a lot of trivial words. The basis for human psychology is the same or psychology wouldn't work at all. Every human being starts off the same way, a blank slate. Environment and to a lesser role genetics determines the person they will become.
As an egg maybe they are a blank slate but even in the womb there is cause and effect at work. No two peoples psychology can be equated due to all the variables and times of traumatic or other events not to mention the role genetics plays. I've read enough on psychology to at least get that much not to mention 60 years of observing myself and other humans. I know people who have been desperately trying to change their outlook for 40 years with little practical result. We are basically set in youth for most. I will admit to seeming exceptions but again I can't say due to the variables of individual psychology.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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drkkenny
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Grapefruit]
#19071080 - 11/01/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think there are certain morals we have to apply to our life if we are to ever find a firm foundation in which we can build for future generations to celebrate our achievements of abstaining from pleasures. Certain pleasures must be prevented from ever being attained, we must try our hardest in order to abandon any endeavor to release the expression that would seek to dispose of the notion that we were preventing pleasure from presenting itself. For some pleasures we no longer deserve and will have taken away from us, as if someone purposely decided to impose their command in order that you had that pleasure removed. They would go to any length in order to assure that the pleasure never revealed itself, to try and put them out of ever acquiring that pleasure. But then pleasures we will give ourselves up to, they will be the ones we most wish to abandon ourselves to, we no longer have any desire to resist to the temptation of rediscovering that pleasure in ourselves, so indeed we never do find out all the pleasure we lost.
I know that I always informed my friends that we would have to have a code of honor we'd follow it we ever were to get anywhere together. It was about bringing people together so we could resolve our difficulties for at times we would be prone to not talking to each other, we will choose to purposely ignore them and choose to talk to someone else instead. As if trying to signify that certain people could never be acknowledged as being your type to exchange social intercourse with and only a certain breed could keep you amid their company without asking to leave 5 seconds after first gaining that bond.
I also was hoping that after I told my friends to keep this honor intact, that after I left them they wouldn't discard all those important moral codes I passed down to them, as if it was some secret code of conduct that they had to pass if they ever wanted to work with a professional. Sometimes we won't talk to someone if they have abandoned the notion that we shouldn't mention the morals to others that need to know, as if it was something they knew they had to acknowledge at some point and now they could dedicate their thanks to the person that gave them a new moral outlook. For there are certain things which cannot be done, certain words that should be refrained from saying, as if uttering some sort of strange enchantment such as this would result in the entire detainment of my character and I'd be locked up soon. However, I also wished that the priests at my church also inform the church children that they should respect their parents imperial command for them to consist in a moral universe for indeed it would show how you are a much more patriotic person than others, that you deserve a badge of merit in which you have been denying yourself, as if a trifle inclined to being skeptical to the notion that because you viewed some opening of a play that no longer plays on Thursdays, but is actually played on Saturdays, usually also no longer is show in most countries. They decided never to announce this pla yon account of the realization that they weren't excited to be there.
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19071184 - 11/01/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Ara16w said:
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Icelander said: If one person overcomes their childhood traumas then the rest are equally capable.
This comes from shear ignorance imo. There are so many factors in human psychology that no two people can ever be alike or we all would be. This kind of black and white view of our human psychology is youthful folly.
That wasn't even an argument. It was just "no" repeated in the form of a lot of trivial words. The basis for human psychology is the same or psychology wouldn't work at all. Every human being starts off the same way, a blank slate. Environment and to a lesser role genetics determines the person they will become.
As an egg maybe they are a blank slate but even in the womb there is cause and effect at work. No two peoples psychology can be equated due to all the variables and times of traumatic or other events not to mention the role genetics plays. I've read enough on psychology to at least get that much not to mention 60 years of observing myself and other humans. I know people who have been desperately trying to change their outlook for 40 years with little practical result. We are basically set in youth for most. I will admit to seeming exceptions but again I can't say due to the variables of individual psychology.
I already said environment. Is the womb not an environment? People having different problems doesn't mean their minds operate in totally different ways. A human being is a human being and the human mind is a human mind. Implying that we're too weak to deal with our problems is a cop out. I'll grant you your early childhood influences are the most rooted, but they're not irreversible. If someone spent 40 years and got nowhere then they were going about it in a very inefficient way.
Those people that changed dealt with their childhood traumas in a manner in which they got over them. It's no more complicated than that. You have to face things to get over them.
The sad fact is that most of us are crazy. During all the isolation experiments that I've ever seen, the person going through it appears to suffer a severe mental breakdown. The reason for this is simple enough. There's no more distractions. There's just you and most of us are unwilling to face ourselves and thus overcome our traumas.
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071200 - 11/01/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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As far as your ecstasy example and the breakdowns, it was lacking too much information for me to reach any conclusion. The dose could have caused it, but a lack of dopamine is the most likely candidate. Once you're out of dopamine there is no being happy. They don't call it Suicide Tuesdays for nothing.
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Cactilove
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: drkkenny]
#19071229 - 11/01/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not entirely. A part of me would be pissed off at you that it happened but another part would understand that deep down you didn't do it on purpose, you're lack of love that you displayed was merely a result of the love you failed to receive. Understanding dissipates the former.
Maybe shooting you in the knee cap was an act of compassion... I took time out of my day and money out of my pocket to educate you about the fact that suffering may not always be a choice.
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Physical pain wasn't the type of suffering that I was referencing, obviously. Even so, if it happened at random and someone I didn't know capped me in the knee for no apparent reason, I'd laugh inside despite the physical pain. It's pretty absurd situation to find yourself in. Something along the lines of, "just another day on planet Earth" would cross my mind and I'd crack up, but not as much so as if I were on shrooms because I'd be less burdened by egotistical nonsense.
Yet, you would still suffer regardless.
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It sounds to me as though you're taking life too seriously. Where did you ever get that notion?
On the contrary, I am a nihilist. What would be the point?
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can't argue that someone chose to be born to starve to death any more than you can argue that they didn't. I don't know the specifics of incarnating. However, I do accept that the struggles and hardships of my own life provided me with the greatest opportunities to learn. If everything was perfect, who would seek to change that and thus learn something new?
This supports your argument that suffering is a choice how?
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Since you seem hell-bent on using the starving to death example, they didn't have to starve to death. You, me, and everyone else on this planet who chose to do nothing about it let them.
This doesn't support your argument that they chose to suffer either. Why did you let them starve to death?
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071262 - 11/01/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Implying that we're too weak to deal with our problems is a cop out.
I never implied any such thing. I said that to say that everyone can change there outlook is incorrect. I've lived long enough to see that everywhere I look. And if they are "doing it wrong" that is neither here nor there. They are doing the best they can given their abilities.
Everyone wants to be happy but for some it's not going to happen because of their inner landscape and they don't create that at least in childhood.
Two people trying the same things can get very different results.
So I'm not saying everyone can't change. I'm just saying not everyone can. If we could we'd all be enlightened buddhas or something.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071273 - 11/01/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: As far as your ecstasy example and the breakdowns, it was lacking too much information for me to reach any conclusion. The dose could have caused it, but a lack of dopamine is the most likely candidate. Once you're out of dopamine there is no being happy. They don't call it Suicide Tuesdays for nothing.
Why would these people be out of dopamine? How could they be and function in day to day?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Penelope_Tree
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Icelander]
#19071640 - 11/01/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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This thread is a relief.
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full blown human
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Icelander
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#19071665 - 11/01/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Glad you think so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cactilove
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19071815 - 11/01/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I suggest you stick around awhile...
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
Edited by Cactilove (11/01/13 07:51 PM)
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Raven Gnosis
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Re: The standards we hold ourselves too matter little if at all [Re: Ara16w]
#19072010 - 11/01/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said:
That wasn't even an argument. It was just "no" repeated in the form of a lot of trivial words. The basis for human psychology is the same or psychology wouldn't work at all. Every human being starts off the same way, a blank slate. Environment and to a lesser role genetics determines the person they will become.
What you are talking about is called Tabula Rasa, and it is simply untrue. Albeit, neuro-plasticity allows these things to change over-time with the right conditions.
Mythbusters II: We Do NOT Begin as Blank Slates
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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