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InvisibleIcelander
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Enlightenment.
    #19044857 - 10/28/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19044867 - 10/28/13 09:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

How about something as simple as letting go of prejudice, social programming, and peer pressure?


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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19045341 - 10/28/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.





On that definition; I tasted enlightenment once, but it didn't stick, and so now all I have is a memory of a state beyond death.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Yogi1]
    #19045441 - 10/28/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
How about something as simple as letting go of prejudice, social programming, and peer pressure?




Nope. However that would be pretty cool.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19045516 - 10/28/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

By your definition, are you enlightened?


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: cez]
    #19045565 - 10/28/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

By that definition, none of us are enlightened and by taking a gander at the world it does not show proof for us to believe otherwise.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Withinity]
    #19045571 - 10/28/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know no one has overcome death anxiety?


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: White Beard] * 1
    #19045585 - 10/28/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Some psycho has to be enlightened by way of having fucked up brain wiring.


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: White Beard]
    #19045594 - 10/28/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't. I'm just speaking for the most part. I wont deny there might be a few people out there that have 'cracked' the system so to speak but i still don't know that for sure even though i believe it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: cez]
    #19045605 - 10/28/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
By your definition, are you enlightened?




Not even close.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19045760 - 10/28/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think of it more as a process that will always continue rather than a goal that can be reached.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19045926 - 10/28/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone of us is enlightened in sleep:grin:


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #19045962 - 10/28/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think enlightenment means to 'lighten up.' I think one learns through much meditation that impermanence makes ones actions not less important but more important. Each decision is the only time one can make such a decision. At the same time, all shall pass, and during meditation be erased, and what will be left, the self unchanged.  Little will be seen to make any substantive difference. And yet that doesn't equate with nihilism.  The personality chosen to enact is the one of which ones memories will be ultimately formed - one is ones works. There are various levels of visuals and auditory noise within - these are signs one has a stable Samadhi, and signs of nothing else.  The various visions point to unqualifiable awareness without an object. Since one is unqualifiable those who ascribe to you a specific quality are not liberated nor enlightened.  Someone who identifies with some type of personality or specific iconage are also not enlightened.


--------------------
...or something







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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19046047 - 10/28/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
Everyone of us is enlightened in sleep:grin:




Yup haha :tongue:

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.




I don't wanna say it is impossible, but I don't think I've ever met anyone who's gotten there.

What I do find interesting though is a parallel between overcoming one's impermanence and letting go of a self/ego that's found throughout many areas of philosophy and thought. If there was no-self to try to make permanent, then there'd be no issue. Obviously, easier said than done though. I take this to be a perceived dualism that there's somehow someone or something separate from the world who fights and struggles against it.

As for the instinctual fear of death, I don't personally think that can be overcome. It's too hardwired into us. But who knows? Any ideas on how to overcome that? :lol:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: r72rock]
    #19046162 - 10/28/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, be born that way.


--------------------


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Yogi1]
    #19046591 - 10/28/13 03:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't want to die horribly but if I was told I would be dead soon I wouldn't really worry. Meanwhile, I don't go worrying about it because life seems to be a purposely designed puzzle of some kind and is full of meaning and interest.

I'm not particularly strong nor have I undergone some special enhancement, I have however attained other levels of everyday life that make it all very interesting, and this is because my mind is a co-creator and a purposely happy mind generates an astounding reality.

If life sucked and all this hadn't happened, this higher consciousness or level(s), of course I would be scared, but it seems pretty safe and playful to me. I don't have all the answers but I've eliminated all the bad possibilities.

This is my simple reasoning:
If I am the imagination of myself, if my mind co-creates, if a purposely incited happiness permeates me, and if my body/brain is healing itself faster than usual, and if everything I need is in my choice of mood/consciousness, how can it go wrong from here?


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19047369 - 10/28/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I think enlightenment means to 'lighten up.' I think one learns through much meditation that impermanence makes ones actions not less important but more important. Each decision is the only time one can make such a decision. At the same time, all shall pass, and during meditation be erased, and what will be left, the self unchanged.  Little will be seen to make any substantive difference. And yet that doesn't equate with nihilism.  The personality chosen to enact is the one of which ones memories will be ultimately formed - one is ones works. There are various levels of visuals and auditory noise within - these are signs one has a stable Samadhi, and signs of nothing else.  The various visions point to unqualifiable awareness without an object. Since one is unqualifiable those who ascribe to you a specific quality are not liberated nor enlightened.  Someone who identifies with some type of personality or specific iconage are also not enlightened.





Have you ever met an enlightened person?  How did you know?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19050345 - 10/29/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Based on that definition, Jesus Christ would be enlightened because he conquered death and the world. That is why I model my life after him. In exchange, he gives to me peace and wisdom so that I am much less fearful impermenance and death than I used to be. Christ is the source of all life and happiness and it transcends the mind. All else, is the play of maya.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Deviate]
    #19050388 - 10/29/13 04:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah that's why he screamed out the infamous "(imaginary) father, why have you forsaken me!!!"

Better luck with someone who actually existed like Gandhi


--------------------


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19050490 - 10/29/13 05:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
I think enlightenment means to 'lighten up.' I think one learns through much meditation that impermanence makes ones actions not less important but more important. Each decision is the only time one can make such a decision. At the same time, all shall pass, and during meditation be erased, and what will be left, the self unchanged.  Little will be seen to make any substantive difference. And yet that doesn't equate with nihilism.  The personality chosen to enact is the one of which ones memories will be ultimately formed - one is ones works. There are various levels of visuals and auditory noise within - these are signs one has a stable Samadhi, and signs of nothing else.  The various visions point to unqualifiable awareness without an object. Since one is unqualifiable those who ascribe to you a specific quality are not liberated nor enlightened.  Someone who identifies with some type of personality or specific iconage are also not enlightened.





Have you ever met an enlightened person?  How did you know?




The teachings are to be used or not - therefore enlightenment is a sliding scale as based for oneself in ones own lifestream. Therefore, I have met very very good people, someone better in everything than me (except rabble rousing). I have met people who were deeply peaceful, and people who are truly good. I met a lot of the masters like Bearheart and Shlomo Karlbach and the head of Golden Dawn and Maharishi, and some Lamas.  Lamas because they represent Buddhas teaching they are as enlightened as ones understanding of Buddha :wink:

But fully liberated? I wouldn't know. But for me, it doesn't really matter, my following days are gone. I'm too old to care anymore. Now I just do spiritual practice because that's who I am, not because I expect anything at all.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineJ Dash
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Yogi1]
    #19050785 - 10/29/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He did exist though.


--------------------
All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Deviate]
    #19050833 - 10/29/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Based on that definition, Jesus Christ would be enlightened because he conquered death and the world. That is why I model my life after him. In exchange, he gives to me peace and wisdom so that I am much less fearful impermenance and death than I used to be. Christ is the source of all life and happiness and it transcends the mind. All else, is the play of maya.





Yes if the story is true.  Evidence may not confirm that.  But as we already know you believe anyway and that works for you. :thumbup:

I have yet to meet any living enlightened person as far as I can tell.  I'm only speaking of those I've really gotten to know well as that's about the only way you have of judging someone with any chance of accuracy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19050996 - 10/29/13 08:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"I don't worry about the future, because the present is too important."

I hope I can get to the stage of emotional maturity, enlightenment, whatever where all my prejudices against the flow of Things as They Are become extinguished. I think it's all in the mind - acceptance, etc. Of course, I was having panic attacks yesterday, so count me as a believer and not a practitioner.... yet!


--------------------
full blown human


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OfflineJ Dash
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Deviate]
    #19051195 - 10/29/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Based on that definition, Jesus Christ would be enlightened because he conquered death and the world. That is why I model my life after him. In exchange, he gives to me peace and wisdom so that I am much less fearful impermenance and death than I used to be. Christ is the source of all life and happiness and it transcends the mind. All else, is the play of maya.




This is what I also believe.  Also, I find myself aware of the 'now'  but living for 'eternity'.  Because life is but an instant when compared to eternity.  Obviously not everyone believes this or even that there is an eternity but I do.  Just my  $0.02.


--------------------
All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: J Dash]
    #19052086 - 10/29/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think enlightenment is constant acceptance of the present moment.  I guess as well as situations indirectly related to death that would also include situations where one's life might be at risk, and ultimately the situation that causes one's death.  So I think I kind of agree with the OP, but I think there is more to it than that.  Not all resistance is due to death anxiety imho.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: PocketLady]
    #19052640 - 10/29/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

that's where we differ. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19052649 - 10/29/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should fight about it


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19052817 - 10/29/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.



I define it like this:

Any person who has come to the realization that there is nothing, objectively speaking, to overcome.  That the universe and every atom in it is inviolate and (for lack of a better word) perfect.

That any perceived shortcoming or weakness or vulnerability -- in relation to yourself or any other sentient being -- is a subjectively-felt experience only.

Subjective consciousness vs. objective consciousness.   

No accidents.  No mistakes.  Nothing needing "correction."

Anywhere.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19053189 - 10/29/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know :facepalm:


Edited by cez (10/29/13 05:48 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19053494 - 10/29/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
You should fight about it





Mud wrestling sounds good to me. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19053521 - 10/29/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.



I define it like this:

Any person who has come to the realization that there is nothing, objectively speaking, to overcome.  That the universe and every atom in it is inviolate and (for lack of a better word) perfect.

That any perceived shortcoming or weakness or vulnerability -- in relation to yourself or any other sentient being -- is a subjectively-felt experience only.

Subjective consciousness vs. objective consciousness.   

No accidents.  No mistakes.  Nothing needing "correction."

Anywhere.





That's pretty good too. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19053753 - 10/29/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.



I define it like this:

Any person who has come to the realization that there is nothing, objectively speaking, to overcome.  That the universe and every atom in it is inviolate and (for lack of a better word) perfect.

That any perceived shortcoming or weakness or vulnerability -- in relation to yourself or any other sentient being -- is a subjectively-felt experience only.

Subjective consciousness vs. objective consciousness.   

No accidents.  No mistakes.  Nothing needing "correction."

Anywhere.





That's pretty good too. :thumbup:




Nope.  :hypnotoad:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Yogi1]
    #19053813 - 10/29/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

OK, mine was better. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19056480 - 10/30/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
You should fight about it





Mud wrestling sounds good to me. :heart:




Careful what you wish for :wink:




--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: PocketLady]
    #19056573 - 10/30/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That's true but I just can't seem to help myself. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19056659 - 10/30/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This mortality issue though isn't of ultimate importance. At some point each person comes to a point of whether they will continue to feel or fly on standby. To continue to feel might need a major reworkup.  Even when one thought they were done for this lifetime, they yet might surprise themselves. I hope they do.  Surprise is the delight of living. Hopefully, and it's not the bad surprise.

I made a choice when I was about 25 to not learn from mistakes any longer. I decide to stop making them.  I didn't care to accept suffering as a teacher.  That was a real good lesson. I can really read through bullshit really well. Few masters are what someone should follow for any reason. After enlightenentm shopped woold and carry waters and wprse watch someeonseles do it.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineMeinDarkEye
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19058408 - 10/30/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



Enjoy the ride.


--------------------
Why can't you be normal!
What you mean to say is, Average.

What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will?
What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill?
What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again?
Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.


Edited by MeinDarkEye (10/30/13 03:50 PM)


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19058651 - 10/30/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.




I'm curious why you would choose these criteria for your definition of enlightenment? Do you think they derive from some objective condition, and if so, what is that?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19059510 - 10/30/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I just think DA is universal.  If you beat it then you got my respect. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19059547 - 10/30/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I only read the first post but anyone that tries to define enlightenment is doomed to be defined as short-sighted, ignorant and arrogant.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Enlightenment is a concept humans use to justify their self-importance.




:nyan:

Anyone that tries to define people that try to define enlightenment is :cool:.


--------------------


Edited by WScott (10/30/13 07:41 PM)


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19061566 - 10/31/13 02:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I just think DA is universal.  If you beat it then you got my respect. :satansmoking:




Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~  I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?

If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19061576 - 10/31/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I understand life better as a ride, because it just seems that you alone and your present awareness... this is all there is, it is the All. I used to try and apply a lot of meaning because I thought life was real and was a struggle, but you alone are real... surely this has no purpose, to be in this circumstance whatever it may be. So yeah, I like that idea, that it's just a ride. We are not the body.

We are eternal reality, everything is illusion. Know the reality and see for yourself that we are in a dream world.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: circastes]
    #19061578 - 10/31/13 02:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's funny how simple the message of all these masters is....


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My shield...
My armour...

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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19061655 - 10/31/13 03:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If one shines the truth itself from inside himself to give light to others in these dark places :sunny:
All forms of anxiety are blocking the ways of truth, as they are just shadows in the light of it.
:stoner:


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19061901 - 10/31/13 06:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I just think DA is universal.  If you beat it then you got my respect. :satansmoking:




Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~  I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?

If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?




Because without DA you'd be fearless and all doors would be open to you. Doors that can be open to you I mean.  And I can't imaging how one would totally do all that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19061984 - 10/31/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

husmmoor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I just think DA is universal.  If you beat it then you got my respect. :satansmoking:




Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~  I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?

If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?




Because without DA you'd be fearless and all doors would be open to you. Doors that can be open to you I mean.  And I can't imaging how one would totally do all that.




What doors would being fearless open that couldn't be opened by regular, fearful people?


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19061993 - 10/31/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You've got to be kidding.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062022 - 10/31/13 07:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, what would you want to do if you were fearless that you can't do now?


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19062077 - 10/31/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

For one tiny example I'd always challenge the bad guy or bully no matter what the risk or anything I didn't fully believe in.  I can't believe you're asking this seriously.  We all limit our experience due to our fears. 

Now you're going to tell me you don't. Right?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062089 - 10/31/13 07:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

check this video out... ill just post the link, don't know how to post the actual vid.

http://thespiritscience.net/spirit/2013/01/14/spirit-science-22-enlightenment/


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062172 - 10/31/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.




I think that's a decent definition of it, although i think the 'person' can not ever overcome death, as whatever is beyond death, if anything, is also prior to birth, it's the person that is born & that dies, so the person can not overcome death, the person must succumb to death!


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062203 - 10/31/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A journey, not a destination


--------------------
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it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19062214 - 10/31/13 08:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

no journey, no destination


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Chronic7]
    #19062240 - 10/31/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As a doctor of spirituality (self defined) before prescribing enlightenment I would have to look at the candidate. Some people still have regard for material life and goal setting and achieving. Enlightenment is said to be an ultimate goal through which one doesn't turn back, and from which there is no return.  Is the candidate looking for true liberation and freedom from samskara, or do they want to become a better painter, a more groovy Liberal, or have really far out sex? Maybe they just want to pat themselves on the back for all their rather pointless drug use and make it seem like it had some meaning.  Maybe they want to be a psychic healer or Reiki adjuvant.

I must know what you are seeking before I can know if enlightenment is good for you.  It may be that enlightenment is like burning up your house from the inside while you're sleeping. As long as you're living in your house, and you haven't set out for the cave retreat you are needing the comfort it provides.

Nothing is more stupid than someone who was forced into enlightenment unwisely through a path which didn't care about them.  A liberated sort who was burned out of their home will have no heart and they will corrupt a great many people.

Also, these enlightened' gurus and 'avataras' who make loads of money have all failed. This liberation is not a business.  These showpeople who don robes and sell practices are ignorant, and they all fall - every single last one of them.

There is only one system which bestows liberation and also material success.  It takes a very potent wisdom to cleave to the middle and seek not an extreme to defend. Such a defenseless position isn't made for leading, or for politics, it is only made for self practice. The person practicing such tantra can only practice for themselves because it has no qualitative or quantitative goal and no signposts.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062270 - 10/31/13 08:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For one tiny example I'd always challenge the bad guy or bully no matter what the risk or anything I didn't fully believe in.  I can't believe you're asking this seriously.  We all limit our experience due to our fears. 

Now you're going to tell me you don't. Right?




No of course we take actions according to our perception of what the outcome will be and fears - real or imagined - are part of that. But I think someone who didn't have any anxiety about death would also subject his decisions to some degree of rational thought, or else I certainly do have a hard time understanding why that person should be called enlightened. Accepting that one has to die, I would presume, doesn't mean that one jumps at every opportunity to get one self killed: Some things may be deemed worth risking death for, others not!

And just as I know lots of people who would most likely be too afraid to try to do anything even if they see some innocent person being beaten by a bully in front of them, I also know a bunch of guys who easily get so enraged by injustice that they act without any thought about the outcome in situations like these. They certainly do have death anxiety, there's no question they want to live forever if they could, but they are also full of moral principles about what is just/acceptable and what is not, and ready to act on them.

I don't think I understand your point, and if you find your ideas so self-evident that you don't want to explain them, then fine. But I salute you for being brave enough to put out your own personal definition of enlightenment for all to see and in a way that can be questioned. Mostly, definitions of enlightenment are not very clear cut like yours, but a set of abstract, mystical notions.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19062625 - 10/31/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

OK I'll try again.  Death anxiety is our ultimate attachment imo and all other attachments are connected to it.  If you win the battle with that attachment the door is open to living attachment/suffering free.  The Buddha would approve. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062767 - 10/31/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all unrelated:


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062804 - 10/31/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. :wink: That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! :thumbup:
But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.:feelsgoodman:


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19062833 - 10/31/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I'll try again.  Death anxiety is our ultimate attachment imo and all other attachments are connected to it.  If you win the battle with that attachment the door is open to living attachment/suffering free.  The Buddha would approve. :laugh:



Yes.  I could raise my glass to that.

Death anxiety is the raison d'etre of most religion.  Fear of death and dying is, for example, the root of the Jesus myth.  Jesus, through his torment and through our obedience to his word, provides the follower with an escape from finality.  An escape from death.  Jesus's resurrection is, after all, the ultimate conquest over death.

Mystics of all eras, religions and denominations, however (including the Christian mystics) recognize death as the companion piece to life.

Death results, ultimately, in more life.  Life results, ultimately, in more death.

And so the glorious cycle continues.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Chronic7]
    #19065456 - 10/31/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.




I think that's a decent definition of it, although i think the 'person' can not ever overcome death, as whatever is beyond death, if anything, is also prior to birth, it's the person that is born & that dies, so the person can not overcome death, the person must succumb to death!




Yeah, I personally subscribe to this too. I forget where I read it, maybe one of Robert Firestone's books, but it said, "You already lost. You're powerless against death. Might as well accept it and try to live with it." :thumbup:


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19065709 - 10/31/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. :wink: That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! :thumbup:
But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.:feelsgoodman:




Once again I have to think you must be kidding or not thinking hard.  The practical applications to losing ones fear of death or impermanence would be tremendous.  For more info check out Ernest Becker - Denial of Death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19067347 - 11/01/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Something fucking weird happens at death, I bet you, and you find yourself to be some higher dimensional object. My mind is shitfucked from OBEs.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19068063 - 11/01/13 03:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

husmmoor said:
Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. :wink: That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! :thumbup:
But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.:feelsgoodman:




Once again I have to think you must be kidding or not thinking hard.  The practical applications to losing ones fear of death or impermanence would be tremendous.  For more info check out Ernest Becker - Denial of Death.




You didn't reply about the bully that you brought up a few posts back, I suppose because you realize there's no good answer to my objections. And now you continue to claim "tremendous practical applications" of this enlightenment without a single mention of any of them. You can't hide behind saying your opinions are self-evident, or behind a book reference, you can cite something from the book to support your argument, if it's there.

I know we are in the spirituality&mysticism forum, but as long as you maintain that your position is rational then I don't think I'm harassing you when asking for an elaboration. But you are embarking on territory that most gurus who talk of enlightenment are very, very careful never to tread on, since it's really not a good idea to say something that might be refuted (ie. practical applications) and thus risk endangering the existence of the whole belief system. :smile:


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19068613 - 11/01/13 06:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Are there practical applications to being enlightened? I giuess so - look at all these Hindu gurus lording it over everybody. Even Ammachi, who's people I know many of and respect is now coming out to be seen as a tyro. So making money and gathering converts is today's goldpanning. I guess liberation does pay off.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19068671 - 11/01/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Are there practical applications to being enlightened? I giuess so - look at all these Hindu gurus lording it over everybody. Even Ammachi, who's people I know many of and respect is now coming out to be seen as a tyro. So making money and gathering converts is today's goldpanning. I guess liberation does pay off.



hehe, yes. Some of these gurus may qualify as 'enlightened' by one criteria or anoher, but even going by the standards of the gurus themselves, most of them can't be enlightened, as they don't recognize most of their colleagues as being as enlightened as themselves. :wink:


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19068724 - 11/01/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I gave you several examples which you proceeded to ignore or not comprehend.  If I don't fear death then I have no fear attachments that limit my experience in living.  I can't make it any plainer than that but since I'm repeating myself you likely won't grok this very basic and obvious fact.  This is the last time I will repeat it. If you don't get it you don't have the capacity at this time in your young life.

And unlike guru's I don't have a real stake in whether you believe or not. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19068767 - 11/01/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pocketlady said:
I think enlightenment is constant acceptance of the present moment.  I guess as well as situations indirectly related to death that would also include situations where ones life might be at risk, and ultimately the situation that causes ones death.  So I think I kind of agree with the OP, but I think there is more to it than that.  Not all resistance is due to death anxiety imho.



Quote:

Icelander said:
that's where we differ. :wink:




If physiological pathologies reflect or manifest the state of the mind and soul, all resistance can be reasonably assumed to be death anxiety. I've always wondered about how I could be affected in unexpected ways by events. I have no faith in the attainability of permanent balance/harmony. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #19068785 - 11/01/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, resistance is futile. :sad:  I learned that after I had wasted much of my life energy.  Now, during the breakdown of the body and mind, I can see many of my mistakes for what they were.  Pure ignorance due to the nature of the beast. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19068831 - 11/01/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Are there practical applications to being enlightened?



I suspect not.  I also suspect the most enlightened among us don't talk about it.

There's a paradox involved in the "Enlightenment Game."  Essentially, what lusts after enlightenment is your ego.  The lust for enlightenment is like any other lust.  And lust -- craving -- is said to be one of the major impediments to spiritual growth.

In the Tao Te Ching, there's the reminder that "they who know do not talk, and they who talk do not know."

Sounds spot on to me.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19068883 - 11/01/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment.  I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened.  I have also grown up surrounded by occultists and done ages of meditation and such.  I have no love for religion, spiritual personalities, cults, or mind games. I like the simple centering of my own practice for a small period a day because it feels healthy.  I don't think most people nowadays can choose a spiritual practice for such mundane and practical reasons. I also don't think giving people some false motivation for applying oneself to a spiritual discipline is honorable. In fact, I think 99 percent of spiritual systems expand the tenets of their teaching into the absurd because humans love some fancy sprinkles with their gruel. This talk of enlightenment is mostly just such sprinkles, and those sprinkles of fancy don't get less imaginary because they use Existentialist terminology.

An actual state of enlightenment is going to be subtle, invisible, knowable only to oneself, and clear as water.

My present belief is that religions and spiritual systems - every single one of them - have failed humanity, the other kingdoms (such as animal), and increased the speed of which the whole world is going to destruction. Every spiritual system is a total failure.

There are a few people who have come from the oven baked just right.  The circumstances which produced whole humans of wisdom is not a process which can be replicated - or it would have been.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19068890 - 11/01/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum


--------------------
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it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19068900 - 11/01/13 09:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum





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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19068968 - 11/01/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment.  I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened.  I have also grown up surrounded by occultists and done ages of meditation and such.  I have no love for religion, spiritual personalities, cults, or mind games. I like the simple centering of my own practice for a small period a day because it feels healthy.  I don't think most people nowadays can choose a spiritual practice for such mundane and practical reasons. I also don't think giving people some false motivation for applying oneself to a spiritual discipline is honorable. In fact, I think 99 percent of spiritual systems expand the tenets of their teaching into the absurd because humans love some fancy sprinkles with their gruel. This talk of enlightenment is mostly just such sprinkles, and those sprinkles of fancy don't get less imaginary because they use Existentialist terminology.

An actual state of enlightenment is going to be subtle, invisible, knowable only to oneself, and clear as water.

My present belief is that religions and spiritual systems - every single one of them - have failed humanity, the other kingdoms (such as animal), and increased the speed of which the whole world is going to destruction. Every spiritual system is a total failure.

There are a few people who have come from the oven baked just right.  The circumstances which produced whole humans of wisdom is not a process which can be replicated - or it would have been.




:thumbup:  agreed


I just wanted to be a super hero.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: White Beard]
    #19068997 - 11/01/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum







:hahthatsrich:


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19069063 - 11/01/13 10:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment.  I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened.



I hear ya. 

Yet we spend time reading and posting here, in a forum dedicated to spirituality and mysticism, while most of the online world are on websites obsessed with the size of Britney Spears' breasts. 

There are many and varied obsessions.

Each to his or her own.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19069119 - 11/01/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Motivation wise it's likely all the same.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19069139 - 11/01/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Motivation wise it's likely all the same.



That's true.  We are all of us merely whacking off.

Each in our own way.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19069449 - 11/01/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

While I have not met the enlightened I don't think there's simply no point to spirituality. I think that people are different and some people enjoy spirituality as much as other enjoy materials.  It's just a preferential thing.  I think a big mistake with religion and spirituality is forcing people to act like they give a shit about it if they do not.  This duplicity which the world cultivates is its undoing. The hard road of broader understanding is most seriously lacking all over this planet. The last thing people need is more 'spiritual' pressure to be what they aren't. What people do most sorely need is to learn ecology as a moral system.  What one needs versus what one wants, what one can get versus what one can never get, how to plan for contentment rather than how to plan the façade of contentment to rub other people's faces in.  What the world needs is less motherfucking Mtv materialism.


--------------------
...or something







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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
    #19069596 - 11/01/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
While I have not met the enlightened I don't think there's simply no point to spirituality. I think that people are different and some people enjoy spirituality as much as other enjoy materials.  It's just a preferential thing.  I think a big mistake with religion and spirituality is forcing people to act like they give a shit about it if they do not.  This duplicity which the world cultivates is its undoing. The hard road of broader understanding is most seriously lacking all over this planet. The last thing people need is more 'spiritual' pressure to be what they aren't. What people do most sorely need is to learn ecology as a moral system.  What one needs versus what one wants, what one can get versus what one can never get, how to plan for contentment rather than how to plan the façade of contentment to rub other people's faces in.  What the world needs is less motherfucking Mtv materialism.



I'm thinking that you and I aren't really disagreeing on anything, eve69.

Proselytizing in any way, shape, or manner is a great evil.  Institutional religions that proselytize are, without question, the greatest threat to world peace and security that exists.  Anyone who opens up and reads any history textbook should have no doubt about that whatsoever.

Spirituality and related matters are an "inside job."

It happens (or it does not happen) inside you, and it should stay there.

This shit is fun to talk about, but let people be -- and stop trying to make them see things as you (generically speaking) do.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19070056 - 11/01/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have never gotten anyone to see anything the way I do. It is a good lesson to learn.  I speak only for the sake of conversation. My motive is patently superficial. I expect no returns.


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...or something







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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: White Beard]
    #19070159 - 11/01/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:





Hah! :rofl:

SMBC comics are always great. :tongue: That's a real good one.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19073512 - 11/02/13 02:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I gave you several examples which you proceeded to ignore or not comprehend.  If I don't fear death then I have no fear attachments that limit my experience in living.  I can't make it any plainer than that but since I'm repeating myself you likely won't grok this very basic and obvious fact.  This is the last time I will repeat it. If you don't get it you don't have the capacity at this time in your young life.

And unlike guru's I don't have a real stake in whether you believe or not. :lol:



You gave me an example that I completely refuted. Your constant, childish attempts at ridiculing me are just lame. If anything they only prove you don't have the capacity to write a coherent argument in this discussion.

You might be able to fool yourself and a few others by your references to your unlimited age and wisdom and self-evidence of everything you say, but what you are saying is simply not based on any rational argument. You seem to be so attached to the Becker/Death anxiety "theory", that you can't look critically at anything that remotely has anything to do with it, such as this enlightenment spin on it.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19073630 - 11/02/13 04:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You never refuted anything that I saw (what did I miss?) and now you are just ranting.

What exactly am I supposed to be looking at critically?

Maybe you're referring to this.

And just as I know lots of people who would most likely be too afraid to try to do anything even if they see some innocent person being beaten by a bully in front of them, I also know a bunch of guys who easily get so enraged by injustice that they act without any thought about the outcome in situations like these. They certainly do have death anxiety, there's no question they want to live forever if they could, but they are also full of moral principles about what is just/acceptable and what is not, and ready to act on them.

Acting without thought imo is a great shield ala Becker for avoiding the actual fear inherent in certain actions.  Maybe why being drunk seems to make one often bolder. 

But without the fear of death one could act "with thought" to accomplish or attempt to accomplish any goal that has physical or if Becker is correct emotional risks.  We wouldn't be taking a chance because there is nothing to fear.  This seems self evident to me and why I believed you weren't considering the implications of not having DA.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/02/13 04:51 AM)


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19073642 - 11/02/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Your example with the bully/injustice, the only example you have given. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19062270#19062270


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19073658 - 11/02/13 05:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol, I can't believe this argument is still going on.  I might not agree that everything is related to death anxiety, but it's plainly obvious that fear is so incredibly limiting.  I can't believe examples are actually needed.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
    #19073659 - 11/02/13 05:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
Your example with the bully/injustice, the only example you have given. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19062270#19062270





And I just responded in my post above.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19073703 - 11/02/13 05:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's how I define it.  Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.





I would have to ask how you define, 'overcome'. What does it mean to overcome? To accept the inevitability? To transcend the depths of cultural bunkers that we usually find ourselves in? How bout to ascend past the idea of life/death and acknowledge an existence that moves passed such limitations?


As someone that feels 'enlightened' as you so call it, I do not see myself as having overcame any anxiety, nor do I see myself as enlightened in any sense, only someone that thrives in the light. I am however without any anxiety of this life ending, as I believe, it will end, as it has before, and will again. Enlightenment I feel is something that can never be fully achieved from this side or perspective, for if it were, we would have move passed our idea of ourselves, and evolved into something beyond. Chasing the dragon, or perfection, .. it is, .. it feels something that seems so easily within our grasps but, can never be fully embraced, and always motivates us to carry on tweaking and forever refining. Enlightenment in a very broad sense I feel, can mean many things, in a more eastern setting, it may simply mean someone who is has become aware of 'the true nature of reality', or awoken to a 'true reality', this could in turn imply that they have transcended any fear of death, but it means so much more. Its a very complex notion you bring to the table.

"If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." - Lyall Watson

The only thing I am sure of, is I am alive, now, living, the least I can do is try and make sense and make love. Spread the light.

julia dunin - enlightened


--------------------



I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -


Edited by snoot (11/02/13 05:51 AM)


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
    #19073724 - 11/02/13 06:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

To accept the inevitability?

This^  To accept completely without any fear conscious or unconscious.

Let me state for the record I don't really believe in enlightenment.  I was just stating what I think would be the criteria for such a thing.  I do believe in awakenings however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19073775 - 11/02/13 06:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
To accept the inevitability?

This^  To accept completely without any fear conscious or unconscious.

Let me state for the record I don't really believe in enlightenment.  I was just stating what I think would be the criteria for such a thing.  I do believe in awakenings however.





Its interesting, that word, enlightened. I think about how I became too feel the way I do, how it has transpired, and how for me the fear of death has dissolved and evolved into a state of overwhelming calm and collection. I'm left with thinking about the word ... 'enlightened', it seems so cute and convenient. Naturally like most things these days I feel that word has been abused, and used and thrown around with little significance, which is an unfortunate tragedy.

Without diving into any depths, or getting too spiritual, I would say that I acknowledge the inevitable, or the unavoidable. As water flows, such is life. However I believe though that nothing truly ends in this universe, but is only transformed. I believe we are all one, and the universe is merely an egg. For me there never was a moment when I accepted the fact that there would be an end, for an end never made sense.


--------------------



I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
    #19073814 - 11/02/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have experienced nirvana, but I was not enlightened so it didn't last.  I still have fears, sometimes very strong fears.  Living with finacial system can cause a lot of fears, as well as a legal system.  I don't know how to handle a society that finds enlightenment to be having wealth and the smarts to be weathly.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19074051 - 11/02/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know if I've met anyone who is perfectly enlightened. If they were, they probably wouldn't go on about it very much.

I also don't know if I've ever met the perfect athlete, but that doesn't mean that there is no point in pursuing perfection is athleticism.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
    #19074354 - 11/02/13 10:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A journey of no return:
the wanderer's sack is
bottomless.


Kyoshu 1769


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander]
    #19074426 - 11/02/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

People define "enlightenment" or "awakening" in so many different ways that it's hard to reach agreement on what those terms mean.

Me, I don't think the enlightened or awakened experience any less human misery or torment than the average shmuck does.  They still have highs and lows.  They still experience resentment, hurt, shame. 

Difference is, they accept and embrace the lows as well as the highs.  They recognize the lows to be part of the human legacy.  Part of what it means to be "human."

So, for them, it's not a matter of "escaping" anything.

It's a matter of embracing everything.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #19074454 - 11/02/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have experienced nirvana, but I was not enlightened so it didn't last.

Same here.  :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19074629 - 11/02/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Embracing doesn't lead to breaking the confines of conditioned impulse/reaction?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Sse]
    #19074725 - 11/02/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
Embracing doesn't lead to breaking the confines of conditioned impulse/reaction?



I believe in the 100 percent sanctity/perfection of the human nature.  Every facet of it.  Not to be confused with mistakes in judgment, though.

So, for example, my anger or rage at you is part of what it means for me to be human.  If I were a frog, I might not experience those emotions.  As a human being, though, they're perfectly natural.

I have zero interest in eliminating anger and rage from my repertoire.  That's like chopping the head off a chicken and expecting it to still behave like a chicken.

However, if I transfer my anger or rage into picking up a gun and shooting you (other than in self-defense), I've made a terrible mistake in judgment.  Two different things:  my human bits (anger, rage, love, shame), and my mistakes in judgment.

The human bits, I embrace.  The mistakes in judgment, I work to eliminate.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19074789 - 11/02/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The following war story is found in the chronicles of a samurai family of the fifteenth or sixteenth century. The general of certain fortress escapes from his enemy into the confines of a Buddhist temple. One of the general's relatives rebels against him and attacks the temple. The general commits suicide by seppuku. His retainer, a warrior named Hyogo, strikes off his head with a "mercy blow" and kill himself as well. Hyogo's son dies in the same battle. Hyogo's wife, upon hearing of her son's and husband's deaths, broke into bitter tears and died within two days. She left this poem:

They who are no more
increase from day to day-
in such a world
how could I think
that when it came to me...

Japanese Death Poems by zen monks and haiku poets on the verge of death


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19074810 - 11/02/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Does embracing your human bits help to eliminate mistaken judgement?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Sse]
    #19074919 - 11/02/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
Does embracing your human bits help to eliminate mistaken judgement?



I think it frees me up to focus and concentrate on the real "demon."  The demon is not my human frailty.  The demon is the misuse and misdirecting of my human bits.

I'm much better off as a living breathing human being with you as my friend and ally than with you as my enemy.  That's why I shouldn't harm you (and, likewise, why you shouldn't harm me).  It's like that today and it was like that when we were living in caves and needed each other's help in stopping the mastodons from dragging our babies out of the cave and eating them. 

Fear and rage served us well then, and it serves us well today. 

I need to focus on what is optimal for me to live in the world and remain safe.  You need to do the same.


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: all this beauty]
    #19074937 - 11/02/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I can dig it :hug:

Flowers of the grass:
scarcely shown, and withered
name and all.


Asei 1752

:yinyang2:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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