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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Quote:
White Beard said:

Hah! 
SMBC comics are always great. That's a real good one.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 557
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: I gave you several examples which you proceeded to ignore or not comprehend. If I don't fear death then I have no fear attachments that limit my experience in living. I can't make it any plainer than that but since I'm repeating myself you likely won't grok this very basic and obvious fact. This is the last time I will repeat it. If you don't get it you don't have the capacity at this time in your young life.
And unlike guru's I don't have a real stake in whether you believe or not. 
You gave me an example that I completely refuted. Your constant, childish attempts at ridiculing me are just lame. If anything they only prove you don't have the capacity to write a coherent argument in this discussion.
You might be able to fool yourself and a few others by your references to your unlimited age and wisdom and self-evidence of everything you say, but what you are saying is simply not based on any rational argument. You seem to be so attached to the Becker/Death anxiety "theory", that you can't look critically at anything that remotely has anything to do with it, such as this enlightenment spin on it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19073630 - 11/02/13 04:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You never refuted anything that I saw (what did I miss?) and now you are just ranting.
What exactly am I supposed to be looking at critically?
Maybe you're referring to this.
And just as I know lots of people who would most likely be too afraid to try to do anything even if they see some innocent person being beaten by a bully in front of them, I also know a bunch of guys who easily get so enraged by injustice that they act without any thought about the outcome in situations like these. They certainly do have death anxiety, there's no question they want to live forever if they could, but they are also full of moral principles about what is just/acceptable and what is not, and ready to act on them.
Acting without thought imo is a great shield ala Becker for avoiding the actual fear inherent in certain actions. Maybe why being drunk seems to make one often bolder.
But without the fear of death one could act "with thought" to accomplish or attempt to accomplish any goal that has physical or if Becker is correct emotional risks. We wouldn't be taking a chance because there is nothing to fear. This seems self evident to me and why I believed you weren't considering the implications of not having DA.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/02/13 04:51 AM)
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 557
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Your example with the bully/injustice, the only example you have given. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19062270#19062270
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19073658 - 11/02/13 05:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lol, I can't believe this argument is still going on. I might not agree that everything is related to death anxiety, but it's plainly obvious that fear is so incredibly limiting. I can't believe examples are actually needed.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19073659 - 11/02/13 05:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
husmmoor said: Your example with the bully/injustice, the only example you have given. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19062270#19062270
And I just responded in my post above.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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snoot
look alive ∞



Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 9,640
Loc: 45º parallel
Last seen: 13 hours, 46 minutes
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Quote:
Icelander said: Here's how I define it. Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.
I would have to ask how you define, 'overcome'. What does it mean to overcome? To accept the inevitability? To transcend the depths of cultural bunkers that we usually find ourselves in? How bout to ascend past the idea of life/death and acknowledge an existence that moves passed such limitations?
As someone that feels 'enlightened' as you so call it, I do not see myself as having overcame any anxiety, nor do I see myself as enlightened in any sense, only someone that thrives in the light. I am however without any anxiety of this life ending, as I believe, it will end, as it has before, and will again. Enlightenment I feel is something that can never be fully achieved from this side or perspective, for if it were, we would have move passed our idea of ourselves, and evolved into something beyond. Chasing the dragon, or perfection, .. it is, .. it feels something that seems so easily within our grasps but, can never be fully embraced, and always motivates us to carry on tweaking and forever refining. Enlightenment in a very broad sense I feel, can mean many things, in a more eastern setting, it may simply mean someone who is has become aware of 'the true nature of reality', or awoken to a 'true reality', this could in turn imply that they have transcended any fear of death, but it means so much more. Its a very complex notion you bring to the table.
"If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." - Lyall Watson
The only thing I am sure of, is I am alive, now, living, the least I can do is try and make sense and make love. Spread the light.
 julia dunin - enlightened
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
Edited by snoot (11/02/13 05:51 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
#19073724 - 11/02/13 06:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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To accept the inevitability?
This^ To accept completely without any fear conscious or unconscious.
Let me state for the record I don't really believe in enlightenment. I was just stating what I think would be the criteria for such a thing. I do believe in awakenings however.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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snoot
look alive ∞



Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 9,640
Loc: 45º parallel
Last seen: 13 hours, 46 minutes
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Quote:
Icelander said: To accept the inevitability?
This^ To accept completely without any fear conscious or unconscious.
Let me state for the record I don't really believe in enlightenment. I was just stating what I think would be the criteria for such a thing. I do believe in awakenings however.
Its interesting, that word, enlightened. I think about how I became too feel the way I do, how it has transpired, and how for me the fear of death has dissolved and evolved into a state of overwhelming calm and collection. I'm left with thinking about the word ... 'enlightened', it seems so cute and convenient. Naturally like most things these days I feel that word has been abused, and used and thrown around with little significance, which is an unfortunate tragedy.
Without diving into any depths, or getting too spiritual, I would say that I acknowledge the inevitable, or the unavoidable. As water flows, such is life. However I believe though that nothing truly ends in this universe, but is only transformed. I believe we are all one, and the universe is merely an egg. For me there never was a moment when I accepted the fact that there would be an end, for an end never made sense.
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
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Morel Guy
Stranger


Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
#19073814 - 11/02/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have experienced nirvana, but I was not enlightened so it didn't last. I still have fears, sometimes very strong fears. Living with finacial system can cause a lot of fears, as well as a legal system. I don't know how to handle a society that finds enlightenment to be having wealth and the smarts to be weathly.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Icelander] 1
#19074051 - 11/02/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't know if I've met anyone who is perfectly enlightened. If they were, they probably wouldn't go on about it very much.
I also don't know if I've ever met the perfect athlete, but that doesn't mean that there is no point in pursuing perfection is athleticism.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: snoot]
#19074354 - 11/02/13 10:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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A journey of no return: the wanderer's sack is bottomless.
Kyoshu 1769
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
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People define "enlightenment" or "awakening" in so many different ways that it's hard to reach agreement on what those terms mean.
Me, I don't think the enlightened or awakened experience any less human misery or torment than the average shmuck does. They still have highs and lows. They still experience resentment, hurt, shame.
Difference is, they accept and embrace the lows as well as the highs. They recognize the lows to be part of the human legacy. Part of what it means to be "human."
So, for them, it's not a matter of "escaping" anything.
It's a matter of embracing everything.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I have experienced nirvana, but I was not enlightened so it didn't last.
Same here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Embracing doesn't lead to breaking the confines of conditioned impulse/reaction?
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Sse]
#19074725 - 11/02/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: Embracing doesn't lead to breaking the confines of conditioned impulse/reaction?
I believe in the 100 percent sanctity/perfection of the human nature. Every facet of it. Not to be confused with mistakes in judgment, though.
So, for example, my anger or rage at you is part of what it means for me to be human. If I were a frog, I might not experience those emotions. As a human being, though, they're perfectly natural.
I have zero interest in eliminating anger and rage from my repertoire. That's like chopping the head off a chicken and expecting it to still behave like a chicken.
However, if I transfer my anger or rage into picking up a gun and shooting you (other than in self-defense), I've made a terrible mistake in judgment. Two different things: my human bits (anger, rage, love, shame), and my mistakes in judgment.
The human bits, I embrace. The mistakes in judgment, I work to eliminate.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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The following war story is found in the chronicles of a samurai family of the fifteenth or sixteenth century. The general of certain fortress escapes from his enemy into the confines of a Buddhist temple. One of the general's relatives rebels against him and attacks the temple. The general commits suicide by seppuku. His retainer, a warrior named Hyogo, strikes off his head with a "mercy blow" and kill himself as well. Hyogo's son dies in the same battle. Hyogo's wife, upon hearing of her son's and husband's deaths, broke into bitter tears and died within two days. She left this poem:
They who are no more increase from day to day- in such a world how could I think that when it came to me...
Japanese Death Poems by zen monks and haiku poets on the verge of death
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Does embracing your human bits help to eliminate mistaken judgement?
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Sse]
#19074919 - 11/02/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: Does embracing your human bits help to eliminate mistaken judgement?
I think it frees me up to focus and concentrate on the real "demon." The demon is not my human frailty. The demon is the misuse and misdirecting of my human bits.
I'm much better off as a living breathing human being with you as my friend and ally than with you as my enemy. That's why I shouldn't harm you (and, likewise, why you shouldn't harm me). It's like that today and it was like that when we were living in caves and needed each other's help in stopping the mastodons from dragging our babies out of the cave and eating them.
Fear and rage served us well then, and it serves us well today.
I need to focus on what is optimal for me to live in the world and remain safe. You need to do the same.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
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I can dig it 
Flowers of the grass: scarcely shown, and withered name and all.
Asei 1752
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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