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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19065709 - 10/31/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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husmmoor said: Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.
Once again I have to think you must be kidding or not thinking hard. The practical applications to losing ones fear of death or impermanence would be tremendous. For more info check out Ernest Becker - Denial of Death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Something fucking weird happens at death, I bet you, and you find yourself to be some higher dimensional object. My mind is shitfucked from OBEs.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
husmmoor said: Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.
Once again I have to think you must be kidding or not thinking hard. The practical applications to losing ones fear of death or impermanence would be tremendous. For more info check out Ernest Becker - Denial of Death.
You didn't reply about the bully that you brought up a few posts back, I suppose because you realize there's no good answer to my objections. And now you continue to claim "tremendous practical applications" of this enlightenment without a single mention of any of them. You can't hide behind saying your opinions are self-evident, or behind a book reference, you can cite something from the book to support your argument, if it's there.
I know we are in the spirituality&mysticism forum, but as long as you maintain that your position is rational then I don't think I'm harassing you when asking for an elaboration. But you are embarking on territory that most gurus who talk of enlightenment are very, very careful never to tread on, since it's really not a good idea to say something that might be refuted (ie. practical applications) and thus risk endangering the existence of the whole belief system.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19068613 - 11/01/13 06:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Are there practical applications to being enlightened? I giuess so - look at all these Hindu gurus lording it over everybody. Even Ammachi, who's people I know many of and respect is now coming out to be seen as a tyro. So making money and gathering converts is today's goldpanning. I guess liberation does pay off.
-------------------- ...or something
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husmmoor
Invitro


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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19068671 - 11/01/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: Are there practical applications to being enlightened? I giuess so - look at all these Hindu gurus lording it over everybody. Even Ammachi, who's people I know many of and respect is now coming out to be seen as a tyro. So making money and gathering converts is today's goldpanning. I guess liberation does pay off.
hehe, yes. Some of these gurus may qualify as 'enlightened' by one criteria or anoher, but even going by the standards of the gurus themselves, most of them can't be enlightened, as they don't recognize most of their colleagues as being as enlightened as themselves.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19068724 - 11/01/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I gave you several examples which you proceeded to ignore or not comprehend. If I don't fear death then I have no fear attachments that limit my experience in living. I can't make it any plainer than that but since I'm repeating myself you likely won't grok this very basic and obvious fact. This is the last time I will repeat it. If you don't get it you don't have the capacity at this time in your young life.
And unlike guru's I don't have a real stake in whether you believe or not.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
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Pocketlady said: I think enlightenment is constant acceptance of the present moment. I guess as well as situations indirectly related to death that would also include situations where ones life might be at risk, and ultimately the situation that causes ones death. So I think I kind of agree with the OP, but I think there is more to it than that. Not all resistance is due to death anxiety imho.
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Icelander said: that's where we differ. 
If physiological pathologies reflect or manifest the state of the mind and soul, all resistance can be reasonably assumed to be death anxiety. I've always wondered about how I could be affected in unexpected ways by events. I have no faith in the attainability of permanent balance/harmony. Resistance is futile.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I agree, resistance is futile. I learned that after I had wasted much of my life energy. Now, during the breakdown of the body and mind, I can see many of my mistakes for what they were. Pure ignorance due to the nature of the beast.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19068831 - 11/01/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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eve69 said: Are there practical applications to being enlightened?
I suspect not. I also suspect the most enlightened among us don't talk about it.
There's a paradox involved in the "Enlightenment Game." Essentially, what lusts after enlightenment is your ego. The lust for enlightenment is like any other lust. And lust -- craving -- is said to be one of the major impediments to spiritual growth.
In the Tao Te Ching, there's the reminder that "they who know do not talk, and they who talk do not know."
Sounds spot on to me.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment. I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened. I have also grown up surrounded by occultists and done ages of meditation and such. I have no love for religion, spiritual personalities, cults, or mind games. I like the simple centering of my own practice for a small period a day because it feels healthy. I don't think most people nowadays can choose a spiritual practice for such mundane and practical reasons. I also don't think giving people some false motivation for applying oneself to a spiritual discipline is honorable. In fact, I think 99 percent of spiritual systems expand the tenets of their teaching into the absurd because humans love some fancy sprinkles with their gruel. This talk of enlightenment is mostly just such sprinkles, and those sprinkles of fancy don't get less imaginary because they use Existentialist terminology.
An actual state of enlightenment is going to be subtle, invisible, knowable only to oneself, and clear as water.
My present belief is that religions and spiritual systems - every single one of them - have failed humanity, the other kingdoms (such as animal), and increased the speed of which the whole world is going to destruction. Every spiritual system is a total failure.
There are a few people who have come from the oven baked just right. The circumstances which produced whole humans of wisdom is not a process which can be replicated - or it would have been.
-------------------- ...or something
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19068890 - 11/01/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Quote:
nicechrisman said: Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19068968 - 11/01/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment. I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened. I have also grown up surrounded by occultists and done ages of meditation and such. I have no love for religion, spiritual personalities, cults, or mind games. I like the simple centering of my own practice for a small period a day because it feels healthy. I don't think most people nowadays can choose a spiritual practice for such mundane and practical reasons. I also don't think giving people some false motivation for applying oneself to a spiritual discipline is honorable. In fact, I think 99 percent of spiritual systems expand the tenets of their teaching into the absurd because humans love some fancy sprinkles with their gruel. This talk of enlightenment is mostly just such sprinkles, and those sprinkles of fancy don't get less imaginary because they use Existentialist terminology.
An actual state of enlightenment is going to be subtle, invisible, knowable only to oneself, and clear as water.
My present belief is that religions and spiritual systems - every single one of them - have failed humanity, the other kingdoms (such as animal), and increased the speed of which the whole world is going to destruction. Every spiritual system is a total failure.
There are a few people who have come from the oven baked just right. The circumstances which produced whole humans of wisdom is not a process which can be replicated - or it would have been.
agreed
I just wanted to be a super hero.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
nicechrisman said: Desiring a lack of desire is an interesting conundrum

-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19069063 - 11/01/13 10:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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eve69 said: Sorry, I have never felt lust for enlightenment. I have never even felt great desire for it. It is something which I consider a myth, never having met anyone enlightened.
I hear ya.
Yet we spend time reading and posting here, in a forum dedicated to spirituality and mysticism, while most of the online world are on websites obsessed with the size of Britney Spears' breasts.
There are many and varied obsessions.
Each to his or her own.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Motivation wise it's likely all the same.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
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Quote:
Icelander said: Motivation wise it's likely all the same.
That's true. We are all of us merely whacking off.
Each in our own way.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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While I have not met the enlightened I don't think there's simply no point to spirituality. I think that people are different and some people enjoy spirituality as much as other enjoy materials. It's just a preferential thing. I think a big mistake with religion and spirituality is forcing people to act like they give a shit about it if they do not. This duplicity which the world cultivates is its undoing. The hard road of broader understanding is most seriously lacking all over this planet. The last thing people need is more 'spiritual' pressure to be what they aren't. What people do most sorely need is to learn ecology as a moral system. What one needs versus what one wants, what one can get versus what one can never get, how to plan for contentment rather than how to plan the façade of contentment to rub other people's faces in. What the world needs is less motherfucking Mtv materialism.
-------------------- ...or something
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: eve69]
#19069596 - 11/01/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: While I have not met the enlightened I don't think there's simply no point to spirituality. I think that people are different and some people enjoy spirituality as much as other enjoy materials. It's just a preferential thing. I think a big mistake with religion and spirituality is forcing people to act like they give a shit about it if they do not. This duplicity which the world cultivates is its undoing. The hard road of broader understanding is most seriously lacking all over this planet. The last thing people need is more 'spiritual' pressure to be what they aren't. What people do most sorely need is to learn ecology as a moral system. What one needs versus what one wants, what one can get versus what one can never get, how to plan for contentment rather than how to plan the façade of contentment to rub other people's faces in. What the world needs is less motherfucking Mtv materialism.
I'm thinking that you and I aren't really disagreeing on anything, eve69.
Proselytizing in any way, shape, or manner is a great evil. Institutional religions that proselytize are, without question, the greatest threat to world peace and security that exists. Anyone who opens up and reads any history textbook should have no doubt about that whatsoever.
Spirituality and related matters are an "inside job."
It happens (or it does not happen) inside you, and it should stay there.
This shit is fun to talk about, but let people be -- and stop trying to make them see things as you (generically speaking) do.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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I have never gotten anyone to see anything the way I do. It is a good lesson to learn. I speak only for the sake of conversation. My motive is patently superficial. I expect no returns.
-------------------- ...or something
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