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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 557
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: I just think DA is universal. If you beat it then you got my respect. 
Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~ I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?
If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19061576 - 10/31/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I understand life better as a ride, because it just seems that you alone and your present awareness... this is all there is, it is the All. I used to try and apply a lot of meaning because I thought life was real and was a struggle, but you alone are real... surely this has no purpose, to be in this circumstance whatever it may be. So yeah, I like that idea, that it's just a ride. We are not the body.
We are eternal reality, everything is illusion. Know the reality and see for yourself that we are in a dream world.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
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Loc: straya
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It's funny how simple the message of all these masters is....
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
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If one shines the truth itself from inside himself to give light to others in these dark places  All forms of anxiety are blocking the ways of truth, as they are just shadows in the light of it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19061901 - 10/31/13 06:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
husmmoor said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I just think DA is universal. If you beat it then you got my respect. 
Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~ I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?
If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?
Because without DA you'd be fearless and all doors would be open to you. Doors that can be open to you I mean. And I can't imaging how one would totally do all that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 557
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
husmmoor said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I just think DA is universal. If you beat it then you got my respect. 
Legs and arms are pretty universal, but cutting them off doesn't make you enlightened ~ I don't see why the universality of DA is a good reason in itself. So why does being free from death anxiety classify as enlightenment, in your opinion?
If DA is a psychological problem then coming up with some solution to it should at least ideally increase ones wellbeing and/or freedom of choice, is that what you mean?
Because without DA you'd be fearless and all doors would be open to you. Doors that can be open to you I mean. And I can't imaging how one would totally do all that.
What doors would being fearless open that couldn't be opened by regular, fearful people?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19061993 - 10/31/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You've got to be kidding.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
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No, what would you want to do if you were fearless that you can't do now?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19062077 - 10/31/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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For one tiny example I'd always challenge the bad guy or bully no matter what the risk or anything I didn't fully believe in. I can't believe you're asking this seriously. We all limit our experience due to our fears.
Now you're going to tell me you don't. Right?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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cubensi11
Stranger

Registered: 03/02/11
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check this video out... ill just post the link, don't know how to post the actual vid.
http://thespiritscience.net/spirit/2013/01/14/spirit-science-22-enlightenment/
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Quote:
Icelander said: Here's how I define it. Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.
I think that's a decent definition of it, although i think the 'person' can not ever overcome death, as whatever is beyond death, if anything, is also prior to birth, it's the person that is born & that dies, so the person can not overcome death, the person must succumb to death!
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
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A journey, not a destination
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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no journey, no destination
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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Loc: isle de la muerte
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Chronic7]
#19062240 - 10/31/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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As a doctor of spirituality (self defined) before prescribing enlightenment I would have to look at the candidate. Some people still have regard for material life and goal setting and achieving. Enlightenment is said to be an ultimate goal through which one doesn't turn back, and from which there is no return. Is the candidate looking for true liberation and freedom from samskara, or do they want to become a better painter, a more groovy Liberal, or have really far out sex? Maybe they just want to pat themselves on the back for all their rather pointless drug use and make it seem like it had some meaning. Maybe they want to be a psychic healer or Reiki adjuvant.
I must know what you are seeking before I can know if enlightenment is good for you. It may be that enlightenment is like burning up your house from the inside while you're sleeping. As long as you're living in your house, and you haven't set out for the cave retreat you are needing the comfort it provides.
Nothing is more stupid than someone who was forced into enlightenment unwisely through a path which didn't care about them. A liberated sort who was burned out of their home will have no heart and they will corrupt a great many people.
Also, these enlightened' gurus and 'avataras' who make loads of money have all failed. This liberation is not a business. These showpeople who don robes and sell practices are ignorant, and they all fall - every single last one of them.
There is only one system which bestows liberation and also material success. It takes a very potent wisdom to cleave to the middle and seek not an extreme to defend. Such a defenseless position isn't made for leading, or for politics, it is only made for self practice. The person practicing such tantra can only practice for themselves because it has no qualitative or quantitative goal and no signposts.
-------------------- ...or something
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 557
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: For one tiny example I'd always challenge the bad guy or bully no matter what the risk or anything I didn't fully believe in. I can't believe you're asking this seriously. We all limit our experience due to our fears.
Now you're going to tell me you don't. Right?
No of course we take actions according to our perception of what the outcome will be and fears - real or imagined - are part of that. But I think someone who didn't have any anxiety about death would also subject his decisions to some degree of rational thought, or else I certainly do have a hard time understanding why that person should be called enlightened. Accepting that one has to die, I would presume, doesn't mean that one jumps at every opportunity to get one self killed: Some things may be deemed worth risking death for, others not!
And just as I know lots of people who would most likely be too afraid to try to do anything even if they see some innocent person being beaten by a bully in front of them, I also know a bunch of guys who easily get so enraged by injustice that they act without any thought about the outcome in situations like these. They certainly do have death anxiety, there's no question they want to live forever if they could, but they are also full of moral principles about what is just/acceptable and what is not, and ready to act on them.
I don't think I understand your point, and if you find your ideas so self-evident that you don't want to explain them, then fine. But I salute you for being brave enough to put out your own personal definition of enlightenment for all to see and in a way that can be questioned. Mostly, definitions of enlightenment are not very clear cut like yours, but a set of abstract, mystical notions.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: husmmoor]
#19062625 - 10/31/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK I'll try again. Death anxiety is our ultimate attachment imo and all other attachments are connected to it. If you win the battle with that attachment the door is open to living attachment/suffering free. The Buddha would approve.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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cbub
it


Registered: 10/17/10
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-------------------- It's fine.
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husmmoor
Invitro


Registered: 04/17/11
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Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Now you did after all opt out of the world of everyday, annoyingly concrete examples (such as confronting the bully) to seek liberation in the world of blurry abstract/mystical notions of "attachment", "freedom from suffering" and so on. That's the history proven immediate liberation due to mystical philosophy! But while I don't see the practical use of any such enlightenment, I'm with you on mysticism and idealism more generally, as long as it doesn't make us too alienated from practical life.
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all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
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Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
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Quote:
Icelander said: OK I'll try again. Death anxiety is our ultimate attachment imo and all other attachments are connected to it. If you win the battle with that attachment the door is open to living attachment/suffering free. The Buddha would approve. 
Yes. I could raise my glass to that.
Death anxiety is the raison d'etre of most religion. Fear of death and dying is, for example, the root of the Jesus myth. Jesus, through his torment and through our obedience to his word, provides the follower with an escape from finality. An escape from death. Jesus's resurrection is, after all, the ultimate conquest over death.
Mystics of all eras, religions and denominations, however (including the Christian mystics) recognize death as the companion piece to life.
Death results, ultimately, in more life. Life results, ultimately, in more death.
And so the glorious cycle continues.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Enlightenment. [Re: Chronic7]
#19065456 - 10/31/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Here's how I define it. Any person who has completely overcome Death/Impermanence anxiety on all levels conscious and unconscious and including the instinctual fear of death.
I think that's a decent definition of it, although i think the 'person' can not ever overcome death, as whatever is beyond death, if anything, is also prior to birth, it's the person that is born & that dies, so the person can not overcome death, the person must succumb to death!
Yeah, I personally subscribe to this too. I forget where I read it, maybe one of Robert Firestone's books, but it said, "You already lost. You're powerless against death. Might as well accept it and try to live with it."
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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