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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] * 1
    #19042549 - 10/27/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you could see that oxygen and placebo is not an avid explanation



WTF is an 'avid explanation'?

Quote:

I really dont know how else to explain it



:magicfingers:


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19042585 - 10/27/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Acupuncture has repeatedly been shown to be nonsense. It is very much like astrology and religion in that there are a large number of schools that vehemently disagree with each other.

What cracks me up is the claims that it is thousands of years old. Guess when fine gold and stainless steel needles were invented.

Acupuncture cannot both be backed by science and beyond the purview of science, yet the practitioners and followers regularly make statements to this effect.



I see why you have reason to doubt acupunture. Some people its a hit. Some people its a miss

For me it was a hit, but to the point where it could have been placebo

meditation on the other hand, was a very and easy to feel thing

I am keeping a neutral standpoint here. I can see why you guys have reason to doubt chi. But saying its some mumbo jumbo bullshit is kind of silly too


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19042622 - 10/27/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I see why you have reason to doubt acupunture




The reason is simple: double blind tests have shown no difference from a 'trained, experienced practitioner' and an untrained (in Eastern medicine) Western doctor sticking needles in random spots. This certainly disproves the meridian hypothesis.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19042647 - 10/27/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

you could see that oxygen and placebo is not an avid explanation



WTF is an 'avid explanation'?

Quote:

I really dont know how else to explain it



:magicfingers:



Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

you could see that oxygen and placebo is not an avid explanation



WTF is an 'avid explanation'?

Quote:

I really dont know how else to explain it



:magicfingers:



1) an avid explanation would mean a logical way to help me understand how breathing for 20minutes a day prevented a stimulant drug relapse completely as well as depression. Along with that, all of the changes which go beyond english language that I have found in my life.
2) I cant explain it in common science terms. That doesnt mean its false. The english laugauge wasnt built to explain abstract concepts.A language like sanskrit would be more apt and explaining things like this. Unfortuantely niether of us know that laungauge. so for now, except the mumbo-jumbo explanation lol. It seems to make sense. And I have experienced and felt its claims. Once again, I would be more than glad to experience the opposite and change my views on this entirely. But until then, I have good reason to believe in the reasoning that was given to me

EDIT: To clarify, I went from suicidal depression and drug abuse, to the most spiritually, sexually, mentally, physically satisfied I have been in my entire life


Edited by topdog82 (10/27/13 08:45 PM)


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19042751 - 10/27/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I see why you have reason to doubt acupunture




The reason is simple: double blind tests have shown no difference from a 'trained, experienced practitioner' and an untrained (in Eastern medicine) Western doctor sticking needles in random spots. This certainly disproves the meridian hypothesis.



Lol then I have no choice to label it as placebo. Plz link it


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19043056 - 10/27/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

an avid explanation would mean




Still makes no sense. You chose an inappropriate adjective.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] * 2
    #19044475 - 10/28/13 06:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

topdog82 said:

This is what pisses me off. dont talk about something you have no understnading of. I dont expect you to mindlessly believe in some practice, but I do expect you to not ignorantly comment on something that you havent expericned or dont fully understnad





What makes you think I've never practiced meditation or don't understand it as much or more than you?

A bald assumption and the crux of your argument, if I disagree with you - simply claim that I possess less understanding on the practice than you. That my experience with it was somehow less "deep".


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19044638 - 10/28/13 08:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

an explanation with logical or scientific backing




Still makes no sense. You chose an inappropriate adjective.



Done


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #19044642 - 10/28/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:

This is what pisses me off. dont talk about something you have no understnading of. I dont expect you to mindlessly believe in some practice, but I do expect you to not ignorantly comment on something that you havent expericned or dont fully understnad





What makes you think I've never practiced meditation or don't understand it as much or more than you?

A bald assumption and the crux of your argument, if I disagree with you - simply claim that I possess less understanding on the practice than you. That my experience with it was somehow less "deep".



I am sorry if I went ahead in assumming that. Its just that when you say increased oxygen intake is the only reason meditation has the effects that it does, then I have reason to doubt your experince in the area lol

Now quit ignoring all of my other arguments and picking a convenient one to counter


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82] * 1
    #19044755 - 10/28/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

topdog82 said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:

This is what pisses me off. dont talk about something you have no understnading of. I dont expect you to mindlessly believe in some practice, but I do expect you to not ignorantly comment on something that you havent expericned or dont fully understnad





What makes you think I've never practiced meditation or don't understand it as much or more than you?

A bald assumption and the crux of your argument, if I disagree with you - simply claim that I possess less understanding on the practice than you. That my experience with it was somehow less "deep".



I am sorry if I went ahead in assumming that. Its just that when you say increased oxygen intake is the only reason meditation has the effects that it does, then I have reason to doubt your experince in the area lol

Now quit ignoring all of my other arguments and picking a convenient one to counter




I wasn't aware that you had an argument, all I've read so far has been "I feel this" and "I feel that". Wherever anything tangible was presented I must have missed it.

This is a debate forum, even if I cared about your feelings they would still be irrelevant.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19044807 - 10/28/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:

This is what pisses me off. dont talk about something you have no understnading of. I dont expect you to mindlessly believe in some practice, but I do expect you to not ignorantly comment on something that you havent expericned or dont fully understnad





What makes you think I've never practiced meditation or don't understand it as much or more than you?

A bald assumption and the crux of your argument, if I disagree with you - simply claim that I possess less understanding on the practice than you. That my experience with it was somehow less "deep".



I am sorry if I went ahead in assumming that. Its just that when you say increased oxygen intake is the only reason meditation has the effects that it does, then I have reason to doubt your experince in the area lol

Now quit ignoring all of my other arguments and picking a convenient one to counter




I wasn't aware that you had an argument, all I've read so far has been "I feel this" and "I feel that". Wherever anything tangible was presented I must have missed it.

This is a debate forum, even if I cared about your feelings they would still be irrelevant.



I am telling you that I experienced something radical from meditation. This radical changecould only be explained through eastern medicine and the flow of chi

You argued that placebo and increased oxygen intake were logical explanations for such radical changes. I laughed because if you were to experience these radical changes you would understand how little sense this would make (funny because you try to counter it two posts ago as if it were a valid point. Now you dismiss it as subjective experience)

So once again I state my point. I dont expect you to mindlessly gobble down the presence of chi in this world. I expect you to stop talking as if you have authority in the area until you either experience it, experience the exact opposite of it, or see clear scientific that indicates what I was talking about was complete lunacy (in this case that would be a single study on meditation saying that it has a negative effect. Or was no better than placebo and increased oxygen intake)

That being said. Neither of us know everything in the world. So even finding one study that says it is placebo isnt shit in the ocean of studies that find it to be more. So really the only way to deduce which answer is correct is to expereince it. And there we are. Back to square one lol

EDIT:
Decades ago red meat was godly. Eat red meat you will live longer. Now days its quite the opposite. Yes science means something. But the only real way to actually figure out what is and what isnt these days is to expereince it


Edited by topdog82 (10/28/13 09:23 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19044845 - 10/28/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Decades ago red meat was godly. Eat red meat you will live longer. Now days its quite the opposite.




I'm not sure it's that simple, nor provable that eating meat increases mortality. Only quite the opposite if you take the word of a vegetarian.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Rahz]
    #19045335 - 10/28/13 09:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Decades ago red meat was godly. Eat red meat you will live longer. Now days its quite the opposite.




I'm not sure it's that simple, nor provable that eating meat increases mortality. Only quite the opposite if you take the word of a vegetarian.



:mindblown:

Precisely! someone gets it!

We don't know shit. We are silly humans. And to try and determine if any universal laws apply or not is pointless and illogical.

My point was that to say things with the utmost certainty or not doesnt really make sense at all. I cant say that chi exists or not. But I can say
"I have expereinced things in my life that lead me to strongly believe in some applications of the eastern concept of energy. I have personally experienced things to make me believe in chi as a very real thing"

Thats the only thing that we have. Our experience

I am vegatarian. It feels the best for me. A lot of vegatarians argue that the human body was built to be vegatarian.

What about this guy:
http://www.vice.com/en_au/read/this-guy-has-eaten-nothing-but-raw-meat-for-five-years

I personally feel the best I have in my entire life from being vegatarian. This guy feels the opposite. Who is to say who is right?

I dont have an issue with saying that chi is a radical idea. But for one human to almost assume the role of god and to say "Chi is a stupid concept. It doesnt exist. anything topdog82 or any of the 7 billion people on this planet experienced is placebo or can be explained by western science" is giving way too much credit to themselves and western science


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19045521 - 10/28/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I am telling you that I experienced something radical from meditation. This radical changecould only be explained through eastern medicine and the flow of chi

There lies the whole of it in my opinion, what you have been talking about can easily be explained through modern medicine as limited as that scope is. To assume that there is some supranatural force behind it is a stretch and thus far there is no tangible evidence to support that theory.

Personally, I would sooner trust in the very believable idea that the cause is physiological rather than the more iffy idea that it is supranatural.


(funny because you try to counter it two posts ago as if it were a valid point. Now you dismiss it as subjective experience)

:lolwut:

I did not anywhere in this thread give subjective experiences credence.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19045695 - 10/28/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
I am telling you that I experienced something radical from meditation. This radical changecould only be explained through eastern medicine and the flow of chi

There lies the whole of it in my opinion, what you have been talking about can easily be explained through modern medicine as limited as that scope is. To assume that there is some supranatural force behind it is a stretch and thus far there is no tangible evidence to support that theory.

Personally, I would sooner trust in the very believable idea that the cause is physiological rather than the more iffy idea that it is supranatural.


(funny because you try to counter it two posts ago as if it were a valid point. Now you dismiss it as subjective experience)

:lolwut:

I did not anywhere in this thread give subjective experiences credence.



Supernatural?

Energies and western science both can exist. And in my insuginuficant opinion they do exist

...u still fail to point out how western medicine explains the increase in compassion wit meditation...


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19046245 - 10/28/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

topdog82 said:
Supernatural?

Energies and western science both can exist. And in my insuginuficant opinion they do exist




Never said they couldn't, but where is the reason to suppose that the latter exists as anything more than superstition? Vague feelings are not enough.



Question, how do you explain saying this on the one hand:
My point was that to say things with the utmost certainty or not doesnt really make sense at all.

And this on the other:
This radical changecould only be explained through eastern medicine and the flow of chi



Quote:


...u still fail to point out how western medicine explains the increase in compassion wit meditation...




Placebo / self-fulfilling prophesy.
That fits well into the bounds of western medicine, psychiatry to be specific.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19046600 - 10/28/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, but how do you explain me floating two feet off the floor while in deep meditation? :levitate:


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19047216 - 10/28/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:
Supernatural?

Energies and western science both can exist. And in my insuginuficant opinion they do exist




Never said they couldn't, but where is the reason to suppose that the latter exists as anything more than superstition? Vague feelings are not enough.



Question, how do you explain saying this on the one hand:
My point was that to say things with the utmost certainty or not doesnt really make sense at all.

And this on the other:
This radical changecould only be explained through eastern medicine and the flow of chi



Quote:


...u still fail to point out how western medicine explains the increase in compassion wit meditation...




Placebo / self-fulfilling prophesy.
That fits well into the bounds of western medicine, psychiatry to be specific.




1) i will pick meditation as it is pretty well documented. It has little to do wit superstition. Superstition would be the tribals in bengal believing that having sex at night and concieving a child will result in a blind child. THAT is superstition. No logical explanation and a double blind study could disprove that any day of the week. There is an entire science built to support the idea of meditstion having positive effects. An eastern science just as valid as western science. If u told someone 1000 years ago that we were made of tuny particles which had a concentrated center and the larger chunk of that particle was empty space and within that field there were areas of uncertainty where you could find electrons. And that at any moment there was a small chance that electron could appear on the opposite side of the universe. And that matter itself could act like waves of energy... The medival european would laugh his or her ass off
2) i say that because because i am willing to discard my beliefs in a nanosecond. I firmly believed hat acupunture was a valid medical practice. But wit that belief was an acceptance that those ideas could be proven wrong. Orgone conclusion has just proved my entire opinion of acupunture within a matter of seconds. I gotta admit i was wrong there. I have no ideas to propose in this universe thst arent based on some kind of faulty assumptions. 1=1 could be proven wrong and we would have to rewrite our entire mathematical system. But for the time being, i should go into calculus later this week wit the assumption that 1=1
3) i am sorry but placebo simply isnt a logical explanation for neuroplasticity and increase in cortical thickness as well as cognition. Some studies in meditation have pointed to the ability of hsbitual meditators to finction on 5 hours of sleep as if they had 8 full hours of sleep. Placebo could explain blood pressure and reduced stress. But neuroplasticity?

That being said, i cant say forsure that meditation has enhances the sattvic energy in someone. But it seems to have some positive effect on the body that mimics wat having more sattvic energy flowing. And the increase in cortical thickness could be explanined by some confounding factor. But as of this moment i have little reason to doubt that meditation effects the energies in the body to result in lasting measurable physiological changes on the nervous system

Orgonw conclusion: plz link the acupunture study. Im quite interested
Ur levitation could easily be explained by ur expertise in using the force


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: topdog82]
    #19047311 - 10/28/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Got to www.Skepdic.com and look up acupuncture.


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OfflineBrambolinie
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Re: The Best Objective Evidence of Chi. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #19047771 - 10/28/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not trying to attack you or anything, but you said you used to get fucked up 24/7 on amps and weed. I think it makes a world of difference for your 'neuroplasticity' now that you've quit that habit.


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