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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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Shaking WBS/MS Inoculation
#19043090 - 10/27/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I figured that it would be best to shake around 8-10/% colonized from MS, then wait till 50% or so.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:00 PM)
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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I know I see many expert growers on here that say shake ... shake ... shake some more
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: I know I see many expert growers on here that say shake ... shake ... shake some more
Most people say to shake at 25-30% then don't shake anymore, the idea being that shaking too much will cause the mycelium to exert too much energy recovering. IME shaking more than once can go either way. I have had jars that I shook 2wice do fine and perform well during the spawn run, I have had others recover but then perform poorly during spawning.
I like to try and shake masters only once at 25-30% though if I have a lagging recieving jar I will sometimes give it a shake to see if it can a) catch up to the others or b) see how it recovers period. If its progress stalled due to contam it will rarely finish.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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I will first start my post with I am an idiot, and I simply have access to the internet.
I was under the impression of allowing grains like wbs,rgs,others to colonize a fair amount of the jar 30% before shaking, after there will be a period of recovery for the mycellium, and than growth will procede as normal shortly thereafter.
I would not shake at 8% personally, and even than until around 20-30%.
I would not shake at initial inoculation using a spore syringe because this will lead to a slower growth by a large degree.
I think the only time I would shake at initial inoculation would be during fully colonized grain 2 grain transfers into a new medium, or possible when using an agar wedge.
Cheers 2 you.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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People say that GTG is faster than MS and the same with LC and both are shaken at inoculation. You can get to 8-10 percent in 4-6 days with a good amount of spores, good incubation, and the right moisture content. So why not shake at 10%? Wouldn't it spread mycelium throughout the jar and lead to over all quicker colonization?
Think of it like this, if I had 100 grains colonized in 4-6 days and I introduced that to 1,000 grains and shook it up really well wouldn't that mean that the 1,000 grains will colonize in a shorter time than just letting it sit to colonize by itself?
When you shake a 50% jar does mycelium grow on all adjacent uncolonized grains at the same rate as regular growth?
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:11 PM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: People say that GTG is faster than MS and the same with LC and both are shaken at inoculation. You can get to 8-10 percent in 4-6 days with a good amount of spores, good incubation, and the right moisture content. So why not shake at 10%? Wouldn't it spread mycelium throughout the jar and lead to over all quicker colonization?
Again, as an inexperienced cultivator
My assumption is at the point you're speaking of (8-10%) there is a high chance of once you shake and beat up the mycellium to transfer/mix it around with the other grains, you're taking a huge risk in the mycellium not being able to properly recover and rebuild from the shock, it is highly advisable to wait until there is a large culture within, as to eliminate the risk of damaging all living mycellium to the point of no recovery.
Just a guess.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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I think your mistaken on a few terms. G2G is just referring to a method of mycelium expansion and can be done with master jars that were inoculated with ms or monocultures. Shaking at 10% could speed things up at first, only to slow them down later.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Most people say to shake at 25-30% then don't shake anymore, the idea being that shaking too much will cause the mycelium to exert too much energy recovering. IME shaking more than once can go either way. I have had jars that I shook 2wice do fine and perform well during the spawn run, I have had others recover but then perform poorly during spawning.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17924122#17924122
My theory is that there is not really any mycelium loss, it is just spread around the jar to the other grains.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:20 PM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17924122#17924122
My theory is that there is not really any mycelium loss, it is just spread around the jar to the other grains.
Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.
*Edit*
I have made a post in my thread - It can be viewed here. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19043364#19043364
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.

If you notice fast colonization to begin with I feel it would be better suited to getting a shake. If you end up with a super fast jar you could do a small fruiting early and have a quick harvest!
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:36 PM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.

If you notice fast colonization to begin with I feel it would be better suited to getting a shake. If you end up with a super fast jar you could do a small fruiting early and have a quick harvest! 
As compeling as that may be, I would be robbing eight times the amount of growth to fruit a single jar, as opposed to using that jar for transfer.
Though, doesent sound like a bad idea.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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Well if you are using it for gtg transfer I guess it would make sense to just do that instead.
You can always take a bit of colonized grain and fruit it early, I mean the my mycelium will fruit whenever it runs out of food.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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FAE considering.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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This is exactly 1 1/2 days after shaking at 8%, it looks the same all over and I imagine it looks the same inside where you cant see.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/29/13 10:50 AM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Like I said its a coin flip. You might get some fast colonizing jars this way, only to have them stall out on your spawn run. Unless you are just casing grains in which they might fruit poorly. On the other hand it might do fine. The best way to evaluate this practice is to do side by side experiments with a proven monoculture, however those results will only be generally indicative of the tendency's of those genetics.
IME which is pretty limited as I usually only do about 25-30 quarts a month, unless you know how the culture your working with will respond, its a crapshoot. At best you may gain a week or two from inoculation to harvest. At worst it will all go shit. Its up to you to decide if your a gambler 
Hopefully it works in your favor this time.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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From what I gather most of the people here that have shook more grain jars than most of us will ever make in our whole cultivation career advice to shake 1 time at 30%.
RR even schooled me here: Don't even initially shake with agar wedges
There's reason to not even shake after a g2g or agar wedge transfer until that gets the jars to 30%.
Bottom line is A massive amount of empirical data has been gathered by the people who do this for a living and the 1 single shake at 30% is whats doing best most of the time.
Now we are trying to speed up the speeding up? We try not to speed things up in this hobby but the 30% shake is the one little thing we get, appreciate it.
That or get some isolates and do some tests yourself and then post those results
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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I don't like shaking too early(like say 8-10 percent like you suggested). When I started out and my grain spawn was too dry, and early shaking would cause massive stalling. They'd have probably have stalled anyways I imagine.
Proper grain hydration will account ultimately for faster and non-stalling growth, which means: moisture locked inside the grain from proper soak time(or simmering), and no standing moisture at the bottom of the jar from proper straining/drying.
I've seen it a million times. New growers often have overly wet or overly dry grain. Properly prepared grain is a major key element to master.
I shake at 30-50 percent.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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I just do not see why people claim that the mycelium have a recovery time at all, you are ultimately going to break up the 100% colonized grain and put it in substrate. Is doing that not more devastating to it?
I am not saying to shake every jar, only the ones that look healthy.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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Jars that have pooled moisture could use a shake anyway.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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