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MUSH HEAD420
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Registered: 09/14/08
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Shaking WBS/MS Inoculation
#19043090 - 10/27/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I figured that it would be best to shake around 8-10/% colonized from MS, then wait till 50% or so.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:00 PM)
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MUSH HEAD420
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I know I see many expert growers on here that say shake ... shake ... shake some more
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: I know I see many expert growers on here that say shake ... shake ... shake some more
Most people say to shake at 25-30% then don't shake anymore, the idea being that shaking too much will cause the mycelium to exert too much energy recovering. IME shaking more than once can go either way. I have had jars that I shook 2wice do fine and perform well during the spawn run, I have had others recover but then perform poorly during spawning.
I like to try and shake masters only once at 25-30% though if I have a lagging recieving jar I will sometimes give it a shake to see if it can a) catch up to the others or b) see how it recovers period. If its progress stalled due to contam it will rarely finish.
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JMcDoogle
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I will first start my post with I am an idiot, and I simply have access to the internet.
I was under the impression of allowing grains like wbs,rgs,others to colonize a fair amount of the jar 30% before shaking, after there will be a period of recovery for the mycellium, and than growth will procede as normal shortly thereafter.
I would not shake at 8% personally, and even than until around 20-30%.
I would not shake at initial inoculation using a spore syringe because this will lead to a slower growth by a large degree.
I think the only time I would shake at initial inoculation would be during fully colonized grain 2 grain transfers into a new medium, or possible when using an agar wedge.
Cheers 2 you.
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MUSH HEAD420
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People say that GTG is faster than MS and the same with LC and both are shaken at inoculation. You can get to 8-10 percent in 4-6 days with a good amount of spores, good incubation, and the right moisture content. So why not shake at 10%? Wouldn't it spread mycelium throughout the jar and lead to over all quicker colonization?
Think of it like this, if I had 100 grains colonized in 4-6 days and I introduced that to 1,000 grains and shook it up really well wouldn't that mean that the 1,000 grains will colonize in a shorter time than just letting it sit to colonize by itself?
When you shake a 50% jar does mycelium grow on all adjacent uncolonized grains at the same rate as regular growth?
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:11 PM)
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: People say that GTG is faster than MS and the same with LC and both are shaken at inoculation. You can get to 8-10 percent in 4-6 days with a good amount of spores, good incubation, and the right moisture content. So why not shake at 10%? Wouldn't it spread mycelium throughout the jar and lead to over all quicker colonization?
Again, as an inexperienced cultivator
My assumption is at the point you're speaking of (8-10%) there is a high chance of once you shake and beat up the mycellium to transfer/mix it around with the other grains, you're taking a huge risk in the mycellium not being able to properly recover and rebuild from the shock, it is highly advisable to wait until there is a large culture within, as to eliminate the risk of damaging all living mycellium to the point of no recovery.
Just a guess.
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Pastywhyte
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I think your mistaken on a few terms. G2G is just referring to a method of mycelium expansion and can be done with master jars that were inoculated with ms or monocultures. Shaking at 10% could speed things up at first, only to slow them down later.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Most people say to shake at 25-30% then don't shake anymore, the idea being that shaking too much will cause the mycelium to exert too much energy recovering. IME shaking more than once can go either way. I have had jars that I shook 2wice do fine and perform well during the spawn run, I have had others recover but then perform poorly during spawning.
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MUSH HEAD420
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17924122#17924122
My theory is that there is not really any mycelium loss, it is just spread around the jar to the other grains.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:20 PM)
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17924122#17924122
My theory is that there is not really any mycelium loss, it is just spread around the jar to the other grains.
Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.
*Edit*
I have made a post in my thread - It can be viewed here. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19043364#19043364
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MUSH HEAD420
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.

If you notice fast colonization to begin with I feel it would be better suited to getting a shake. If you end up with a super fast jar you could do a small fruiting early and have a quick harvest!
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/27/13 11:36 PM)
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: Sure, Ive got around 14 jars inoculated at this point on 10/24 - three of them in nearly identical growth at the time being, third day ater MS Syringe inoculation of around .5cc into 1 qt. I am going to go upstairs now, and shake the hell out of one I have duplicate " strains " of - as a show of my ability to appreciate an experiment.
I'll keep you posted.

If you notice fast colonization to begin with I feel it would be better suited to getting a shake. If you end up with a super fast jar you could do a small fruiting early and have a quick harvest! 
As compeling as that may be, I would be robbing eight times the amount of growth to fruit a single jar, as opposed to using that jar for transfer.
Though, doesent sound like a bad idea.
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MUSH HEAD420
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Well if you are using it for gtg transfer I guess it would make sense to just do that instead.
You can always take a bit of colonized grain and fruit it early, I mean the my mycelium will fruit whenever it runs out of food.
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JMcDoogle
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FAE considering.
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MUSH HEAD420
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This is exactly 1 1/2 days after shaking at 8%, it looks the same all over and I imagine it looks the same inside where you cant see.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (10/29/13 10:50 AM)
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Pastywhyte
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Like I said its a coin flip. You might get some fast colonizing jars this way, only to have them stall out on your spawn run. Unless you are just casing grains in which they might fruit poorly. On the other hand it might do fine. The best way to evaluate this practice is to do side by side experiments with a proven monoculture, however those results will only be generally indicative of the tendency's of those genetics.
IME which is pretty limited as I usually only do about 25-30 quarts a month, unless you know how the culture your working with will respond, its a crapshoot. At best you may gain a week or two from inoculation to harvest. At worst it will all go shit. Its up to you to decide if your a gambler 
Hopefully it works in your favor this time.
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bodhisatta 
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From what I gather most of the people here that have shook more grain jars than most of us will ever make in our whole cultivation career advice to shake 1 time at 30%.
RR even schooled me here: Don't even initially shake with agar wedges
There's reason to not even shake after a g2g or agar wedge transfer until that gets the jars to 30%.
Bottom line is A massive amount of empirical data has been gathered by the people who do this for a living and the 1 single shake at 30% is whats doing best most of the time.
Now we are trying to speed up the speeding up? We try not to speed things up in this hobby but the 30% shake is the one little thing we get, appreciate it.
That or get some isolates and do some tests yourself and then post those results
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TheEaglesGift
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I don't like shaking too early(like say 8-10 percent like you suggested). When I started out and my grain spawn was too dry, and early shaking would cause massive stalling. They'd have probably have stalled anyways I imagine.
Proper grain hydration will account ultimately for faster and non-stalling growth, which means: moisture locked inside the grain from proper soak time(or simmering), and no standing moisture at the bottom of the jar from proper straining/drying.
I've seen it a million times. New growers often have overly wet or overly dry grain. Properly prepared grain is a major key element to master.
I shake at 30-50 percent.
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MUSH HEAD420
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I just do not see why people claim that the mycelium have a recovery time at all, you are ultimately going to break up the 100% colonized grain and put it in substrate. Is doing that not more devastating to it?
I am not saying to shake every jar, only the ones that look healthy.
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MUSH HEAD420
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Jars that have pooled moisture could use a shake anyway.
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JMcDoogle
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:

A nice idea to do a side by side but. . . its meaningless if its not a monoculture After my side pin and slatting experiments are concluded I plan to do something like this to see if a) it colonizes any quicker and b) to see if there are any differences in yield. I got just the isolate in mind as well.
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PirateSwazey



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in my experience i've seen much slower colonization when i've shaken my jars before 20-30%.
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
PirateSwazey said: in my experience i've seen much slower colonization when i've shaken my jars before 20-30%.
Oh I agree, I just want to do the experiment and post the results so I can have a ready link for people who don't seem to buy in to the idea. If my hypothesis is disproved by said experiment then fantastic, I may change my methods, or at least run another experiment with different genetics until consistent results are obtained.
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Rubestoad
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IME ( one shook jar lol) the shaking revealed a contam the very next day. Is it possible then that a shake on a suspect jar might give you the verdict faster?
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
Rubestoad said: IME ( one shook jar lol) the shaking revealed a contam the very next day. Is it possible then that a shake on a suspect jar might give you the verdict faster?
I have done this and its not a bad way to reveal a contam but, that is the only time/reason that I would do that. Usually when I shake jars (especially more than once) I find that the colonization speed will slow incremetaly after each shake. Then when/if you get to the spawn run it takes forever
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MUSH HEAD420
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I am not doubting you have experience in the matter, but I do doubt that you shook a perfectly good jar more than once. More likely is that these jars you have shaken more than once were already problem jars.
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: I am not doubting you have experience in the matter, but I do doubt that you shook a perfectly good jar more than once. More likely is that these jars you have shaken more than once were already problem jars.
I have been impatient before. I will try most things once, ill advised or not. I do things that are recommended not to do all the time, just to see how they turn out. I have run no hole monos, no holes in bottom of SGFC, jar lids with no holes, not lined tubs and trays, used micropore tape instead of poly on monotub holes, used LC, tried hay as a sub, bucket tek, slatting tek, thin subs, thick subs, pint size pf cakes, popcorn, made FC's with foggers fans & pumps, ghetto ass agar, open air inoculations, outdoor inoculations, fractionalization, shaken jars after ms inoculation, etc, etc. I could probably fill a book with ill advised shit that I have tried.
Some of these things worked well for me, some were complete fails, some were just ok. Along the way I tried a lot of recommended shit that worked really well too. The result was I got a pretty good idea of what corners I can cut, which ones I can't, and why some shit that just seems easy doesn't work.
I have shaken grain master jars more than once
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MUSH HEAD420
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
I have shaken grain master jars more than once 
Still though, shaking may or may not be what causes you to have a stalled myc.
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: Still though, shaking may or may not be what causes you to have a stalled myc.
Ok I won't argue that. I think that I am now resolved to do a side by side experiment, just to get to the bottom of this, I have seen a few people questioning this, and I know of at least one TC that swore by multiple shakes. If and when I complete this side by side results shall be posted.
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MUSH HEAD420
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JMcDoogle
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An update before work, no pictures as of right now, battery is charging -
The one I shook is doing remarkably well, perhaps 30-50% colonized ( depending on center that cannot be seen )
Compared to 10-15% of the unshaken -
All in all, we will see in the long run.
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cronicr



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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
MUSH HEAD420 said: Still though, shaking may or may not be what causes you to have a stalled myc.
Ok I won't argue that. I think that I am now resolved to do a side by side experiment, just to get to the bottom of this, I have seen a few people questioning this, and I know of at least one TC that swore by multiple shakes. If and when I complete this side by side results shall be posted.
Like citric I am a multiple shake kinda guy. Done it with iso's and ms alike and any stalling that happened was due to a contam and have never seen a healthy jar stall due to shaking, if that were the case g2g would be a littleriskier
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blueconfusion
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Re: Shaking wbs [Re: cronicr]
#19063928 - 10/31/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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IME a jar shaken at 30% will more evenly distribute the grains from 30% my hats usually colonizers in about 4 or less days
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MUSH HEAD420
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The shaken one is going so quick I think its off to the fridge so the other ones can catch up to it.
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cronicr



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No need for the fridge, I just fruited a fout month old grain jar with np's and the fruits pack quite a punch
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MUSH HEAD420
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Re: Shaking wbs [Re: cronicr]
#19065875 - 10/31/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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thanks, no fridge.
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cronicr



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Fridges are dirty anyway lol
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MUSH HEAD420
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Re: Shaking wbs [Re: cronicr]
#19065966 - 10/31/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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so no moldy bread in the fruiting chamber then?
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cronicr



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Unless you like yeast infections....
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Rubestoad
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Re: Shaking wbs [Re: cronicr]
#19066416 - 10/31/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmm could possibly break up one of these giant white pills in med cabinet and add to sub to kill the yeast?
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MUSH HEAD420
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The burning/itch is half the fun.
Wait we are talking about substrate, not my vag.
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MUSH HEAD420
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said jar is around 90% colonized.
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JMcDoogle
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same here, same here.. while the others look moderatley the same to the naked eye as when I shook, I think their colonizing inwards faster than wide.
Also just went to three stores looking for widemouths, none had them >.<
Decided to buy more mono's while I was there -
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Rubestoad
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:

New
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MUSH HEAD420
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lookin good, shake those other ones!
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MUSH HEAD420
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Well give the least colonized like 3 more days.
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JMcDoogle
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If I shook the other ones, how would I have a control variable?
Scientific Experiments 101
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MUSH HEAD420
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I figured the experiment was complete lol
I guess we still don't know if the whole grow faster but fruit less thing is true.
I doubt it to begin with though.
SHAKE! lol
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MUSH HEAD420
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I think shaking the ones that are going slow and witnessing exploding growth, would validate the experiment?
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JMcDoogle
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If this experiment begins with and finished with a more controlled atmosphere, I believe it will be a more pragmatic and efficent method of changing the misconception of " shaking " which is to say as a determental factor in mycellium growth prior to 1/3 colonization.
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MUSH HEAD420
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I guess, in the hopes of changing some minds it should be carried out in a more meticulous way.
Will these be fruited separately by any chance? That would help tell if it does anything down the road.
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JMcDoogle
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Yep, each on their own in an 6 qt sterilite ( shoe box ) mono
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MUSH HEAD420
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JMcDoogle
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Its nearly fully colonized at this point -
Just an update.
Thinking about shaking all other jars now.
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said: If this experiment begins with and finished with a more controlled atmosphere, I believe it will be a more pragmatic and efficent method of changing the misconception of " shaking " which is to say as a determental factor in mycellium growth prior to 1/3 colonization.
Agreed. It will also validate any findings in the eyes of the OMC where ms experiments will only be written off as a one off case of genetics. I do feel that these results are encouraging and if it can be demonstrated that multiple shakes will not negatively affect yield I can tell you what my practice going forward will be
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JMcDoogle
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: If this experiment begins with and finished with a more controlled atmosphere, I believe it will be a more pragmatic and efficent method of changing the misconception of " shaking " which is to say as a determental factor in mycellium growth prior to 1/3 colonization.
Agreed. It will also validate any findings in the eyes of the OMC where ms experiments will only be written off as a one off case of genetics. I do feel that these results are encouraging and if it can be demonstrated that multiple shakes will not negatively affect yield I can tell you what my practice going forward will be 
I agree. Though there were not multiple shakes - the jar was shaken one time at around 5-8% Growth. As of right now, this control situation is only to reflect on shaking upon intial growth sight as opposed to waiting until further colonization.
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Pastywhyte
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Interesting, I always found that shaking too early always resulted in not being able to disperse enough nock points, which ended up creating large pockets that took longer to fill in, compared to shaking at 30%. Might because I usually use rye and don't have as many nock points. I should run another with straight millet and another with rgs to see what works for what (I am totally gonna run this with an isolate).
If you only shook once I totally doubt that yield could be affected negatively.
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JMcDoogle
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I shook three out of these six the other day aswell, I will take a photo and include my data from when I shook, and inoculation dates aswell as colonization levels prior to shaking.
This is fun, the only bad thing is watching these take off with growth, and become colonized very quickly as compared to the others that were not shaken upon signs of intial growth, and to still ask myself why I havent already shaken the other 8-10 jars by now.
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Rubestoad
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:

I shook three out of these six the other day aswell, I will take a photo and include my data from when I shook, and inoculation dates aswell as colonization levels prior to shaking.
This is fun, the only bad thing is watching these take off with growth, and become colonized very quickly as compared to the others that were not shaken upon signs of intial growth, and to still ask myself why I havent already shaken the other 8-10 jars by now.
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: If I shook the other ones, how would I have a control variable?
Scientific Experiments 101 

Patience jmac see this through to the end
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JMcDoogle
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Of the ones I shook, all are nearly or fully colonized, the others remain around 20-25%
I still havent touched the controls.
Will be spawning to bulk here in the next day or two -
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 921
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This one was inoculated on the 23rd and then shaken on the 26th, then shaken once at 50%.
It got to 100% and was birthed alone to a tub in a sgfc cased with 100% verm, fruiting conditions immediately. The wbs is 1 in thick and verm layer is 1/2 inch thick.
the fruiting chamber is a 8qt tub in a 12qt shoebox tub. sitting next to a drafty window on a water heater.
Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (11/04/13 09:32 PM)
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