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vjp
Canowicakte


Registered: 05/28/09
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Loc: Ste-ye-hah' mah
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Photography lighting
#19040659 - 10/27/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Any have experience using a lighting system similar to this? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054EI7BG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=theonlinephot-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0054EI7BG
If you do, how do you think it would translate over to mushroom photography?
I really like my macro ring light, but it's nearly impossible to get perfect white balance due to the weird color temperatures of LED lighting. I put a orange diffuser on and that helps take away the weird blue hues, but it's still not what i'm looking for.
I think having adjustable color temperature, power control, and constant light might help. What do you guys think?
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19040686 - 10/27/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're a photographer right?
Use a flash.
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vjp
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: GoldenEye]
#19040699 - 10/27/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've bought 3-4 different flashes for mushroom photography and none of them produce the results i'm looking for.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19040802 - 10/27/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why not? What are you looking for? Can you show me expamples, I should be able to tell you how it's achieved.
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BubikolRamios
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: GoldenEye]
#19040850 - 10/27/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Flash does not make miracles nor does corupt colors by default.
It is more the problem of color processing in camera.
Forinstance this was taken with nikon R1C1 kit. The yellow of gills should be more intense.
For that prob I go to camera 'set picture control', change from neutral to standard, And I get more intense colors. To intense for sure, one day I will study that prob. into depth.
For 99.9 % of cases camera neutral & R1C1 works without problem, in rest cases blue & violet problems, strenght of color poblem, not existing color (i.e. they are there in nature but not on image), etc.
Otherwise if you are going to buy something, the other day I seen on net thing that looks like ring flash and works optionaly as flash or as light. That could be very good.
R1C1 (instead of controler on top of camera I have SB 800) --> the good thing is that you can remove one or two of those small flashes and produce lighht from under mushromm, I have 'big flash' on camera & optionaly move small flashes around
see example, small flash to the left from shroom, big one direct on it, a bit owerexposed, but still magical: http://agrozoo.net/jsp/Galery_one_image.jsp?id_galery_obfuscated=2a65a504d01d45f8987328cd36b3cb0f
Edited by BubikolRamios (10/27/13 02:11 PM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19041021 - 10/27/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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That really looks pretty cool, I think you should get one. Kind of odd to have such a big thing attached to your camera though, maybe it should go off to the side and have a reflector on the other side to provide better illumination?
If you get it and it works well I will totally buy one.
Interesting how the color temperature is adjustable, I wonder how that works? And how does that interface with the color temperature white balance on your camera? In theory it should interface really well....
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vjp
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: GoldenEye]
#19041635 - 10/27/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said: Why not? What are you looking for? Can you show me expamples, I should be able to tell you how it's achieved.
I can't really show you examples since none of my photos come out how i want them too.
Quote:
Flash does not make miracles nor does corupt colors by default.
It is more the problem of color processing in camera.
I agree. But i also think that for mushroom photography it's almost impossible to get a correct color balance without post processing.
Quote:
Kind of odd to have such a big thing attached to your camera though, maybe it should go off to the side and have a reflector on the other side to provide better illumination?
My plan was to create a homemade stand. The majority of the light would be used to illuminate the gills/stem and the rest would be reflected off of a umbrella that has reflectors on the underside of it. The light would then be reflected on to the caps.
Quote:
Interesting how the color temperature is adjustable, I wonder how that works? And how does that interface with the color temperature white balance on your camera?
I think it works by combining two different color temperatures of LED lights. I think it should interface well, but it will take some practice to narrow down the correct color temperature with default white balance settings on my camera. My camera can't change color temperature in-camera like many cameras can.
Edited by vjp (10/27/13 09:40 PM)
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vjp
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19042937 - 10/27/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, if no one else has a opinion then i'm going to order it. I'll let you guys know how i like it.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19043911 - 10/28/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I fear you will be disappointed and still unable to get what you want.
Find pictures from other photographers that show aspects of the effects you are looking for and research how they are shot. Once you understand lighting you can start making it your own.
Also, do keep in mind that a lot is done in post. Color correction is a big part of that. This was even the case in analog times. Darkroom color corrections were a very important skill.
It's not only about getting the color balance right. (Which should be a lot easier with flash as you are overpowering the daylight and don't have to deal with different temperatures of light!).
There will also be hues caused by reflection. If something pale is close to something colorful, the light reflecting from the colored surface casts a hue on the pale object close to it. This is pretty much unavoidable (direction of light makes a difference though) and almost always needs to be dealt with in post.
If you want the colors to be "realistic" use one color temperature of light (daylight is one so if you use the led you're mixing in a second which will make things complicated - that's why I advised flash). Make a small grey card and use that for setting the color balance. This will be your best starting point. From there, use post.
If you want to freak the colors, then you have ordered a great lamp.
Good luck, even though I am skeptical I do hope it will work for you!
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Joust
Mycotographer




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Re: Photography lighting [Re: GoldenEye]
#19045609 - 10/28/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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get some reflectors, if you are worried about color balance, use natural light and diffuse that with umbrellas, I think any artificial light setup is not what you are looking for, set the white balance to custom on the camera and adjust, or on your computer. Either way, cant wait to see what you come up with
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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vjp
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: GoldenEye]
#19045651 - 10/28/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's not only about getting the color balance right. (Which should be a lot easier with flash as you are overpowering the daylight and don't have to deal with different temperatures of light!).
If you over power daylight with flash than you will have harsh dark shadows and unrealistic colors. I am looking for a fill light - to lighten up the gills and stem and bring out some color. Flash/lighting should be used for color not exposure.
Quote:
If you want the colors to be "realistic" use one color temperature of light (daylight is one so if you use the led you're mixing in a second which will make things complicated - that's why I advised flash)
If you use flash than your still mixing in a second light source.
Quote:
If you want to freak the colors, then you have ordered a great lamp.
I'm not following your reasoning.
Quote:
Good luck, even though I am skeptical I do hope it will work for you!
Appreciate it
Edited by vjp (10/28/13 11:40 AM)
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vjp
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: Joust]
#19045676 - 10/28/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: get some reflectors, if you are worried about color balance, use natural light and diffuse that with umbrellas, I think any artificial light setup is not what you are looking for, set the white balance to custom on the camera and adjust, or on your computer. Either way, cant wait to see what you come up with
I use a umbrella and reflectors - still doesn't produce what i'm looking for.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19045815 - 10/28/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
vjp said:
Quote:
Joust said: get some reflectors, if you are worried about color balance, use natural light and diffuse that with umbrellas, I think any artificial light setup is not what you are looking for, set the white balance to custom on the camera and adjust, or on your computer. Either way, cant wait to see what you come up with
I use a umbrella and reflectors - still doesn't produce what i'm looking for.
I guess i havent seen enough of your pics to know what you are talking about..
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: Joust]
#19046005 - 10/28/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Would be fun to build one of these from scratch. The leds are super cheap on ebay and I am thinking a box of chocolates would make a good enclosure. I would have Joust calculate the resistor values since he is super good at math. Should not take many leds for a little fill light since I usually use long exposures. For the color control I could repurpose an old joystick since they are basically dual potentiometers.
Any ideas for a durable DIY diffuser?
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Hey, i did circuits for a year  Already sounds badass.
Diffuser? I would go with frosted glass, bet that would be interesting, bet there would be a lot of vectored light haha
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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GoldenEye
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Posts: 4,340
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: vjp]
#19046945 - 10/28/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
vjp said: If you over power daylight with flash than you will have harsh dark shadows and unrealistic colors. I am looking for a fill light - to lighten up the gills and stem and bring out some color. Flash/lighting should be used for color not exposure.
Depends on the type of flash. You can bounce the flash off of something, use umbrella's, ring flash. There is always a way.
Quote:
If you use flash than your still mixing in a second light source.
Depends on the shutter speed you're using. If you use the flash synchronisation speed you will not be registering any of the daylight. It's all flash then.
Quote:
I'm not following your reasoning.
You probably will once you start using it. You are going to mix light of different temperatures which will make it hard to get any color right.
The easyness of possibilities would be (from easiest to hardest):
- Bouncing daylight - Flash only - Continuous lighting during the night. - Colour filtered flash mixed with daylight as a fill - Continuous lighting during the day.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: Joust]
#19046952 - 10/28/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Diffuser?
Tracing paper.
Make a wooden frame with tracing paper stapled to it.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19047496 - 10/28/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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That would get shredded quickly iny backpack, but tracing paper with a layer of plastic over it sounds good.
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vjp
Canowicakte


Registered: 05/28/09
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Here is a example of the weird colors i get from my led macro ring flash. It is extremely annoying.

Quote:
You probably will once you start using it. You are going to mix light of different temperatures which will make it hard to get any color right.
With that light you can change the color temperature of the light. That way you can change the temperature to match the environment your shooting in. Most flashes and LED macro ring flashes don't let you change temperature and your stuck with a unnatural looking blue hue.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp] 1
#19049874 - 10/29/13 12:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi vjp, I get those unnatural looking blue hues if I use no flash, reflectors, natural light and long exposures, especially under trees at midday, what I have found works well is to use the same technique but use the flash set to the lowest possible setting, sometimes I also hold a white sheet of paper in front of the flash to diffuse the light a bit.
I usually leave the white balance set to auto but you can try the shade setting or do a preset white balance with a grey or white card.
Learning how light reflects off different coloured objects has helped me greatly, for example, if you have a red surface most of the hues other than red become absorbed into the object so the light being reflected mainly looks red, if the object is blue most of the hues other than blue become absorbed and the light being reflected looks blue, when doing long exposures with very little or no flash be aware of the colours of your clothing especially if the sun is behind your subject and you are standing behind your camera, sometimes I have to set up my shot then walk to the side and use my remote shutter release.
I very rarely get the results I would like to get and just have to make do with what I end up with.
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




Registered: 02/26/02
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you're thinking small. Think android app and an IOIO
--------------------
Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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GoldenEye
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Registered: 05/24/13
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp]
#19050496 - 10/29/13 05:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
vjp said: Here is a example of the weird colors i get from my led macro ring flash. It is extremely annoying.
Are you shooting in raw format? It seems like the camera converted this to jpeg which is never a good idea.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19050506 - 10/29/13 05:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It seems too saturated and vibrant more than anything.
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: canid]
#19050511 - 10/29/13 05:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Now that I think about it, I've got a probably +2 watt RGB-led board with a programmable controller on it salvaged from one of those programmable LED light bulbs. If I can reverse the IR protocol for it or identify the microcontroller on the board for reprogramming, it and a battery pack might be just the ticket. It could even be that the original remote can be retained.
Otherwise, I have a bunch of microcontrollers sitting around and could scavenge the high wattage LEDs from something. Let me know if any of you want to pursue that.
--------------------
Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19051564 - 10/29/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said:
Quote:
vjp said: Here is a example of the weird colors i get from my led macro ring flash. It is extremely annoying.
Are you shooting in raw format? It seems like the camera converted this to jpeg which is never a good idea.
We cannot upload RAW files here, I shoot in RAW then edit the image and convert it to jpeg, I suspect vjp does the same.
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vjp
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19051576 - 10/29/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Appreciate the help inski
Quote:
GoldenEye said:
Quote:
vjp said: Here is a example of the weird colors i get from my led macro ring flash. It is extremely annoying.
Are you shooting in raw format? It seems like the camera converted this to jpeg which is never a good idea.
Yea, raw
Goldeneye can you show us some examples of your mushroom photography?
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vjp
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp]
#19051584 - 10/29/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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inksi do you make your own reflectors?
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp] 1
#19055246 - 10/30/13 12:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
vjp said: inksi do you make your own reflectors?
Yes, I make them, I use two rectangles of thin but rigid plastic(waterproof) taped together in the middle so they can fold and stand like a pyramid, I crinkle some aluminium(aluminum) foil then straighten it out and glue it to one side of the plastic, the crinkled foil diffuses the reflected light, I have two of these reflectors and usually position them on either side of the subject, I look through the eyepiece and change the angle of the reflectors until the light looks good.
The use of these reflectors with natural light plus the flash set at it's lowest setting generally gives me the best results, I usually have to take three or four images before I get the desired result but occasionally I get it first time.
I seem to get my best shots around mid morning, between 9am and 11am and usually the light is coming from behind the subject.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: inski]
#19056406 - 10/30/13 06:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have never taken photo's of mushrooms.
I was speaking from experiences in other fields. Light is light, it works in the same way regardless of the subject. Mushrooms will just be a bit more challenging because they are very small.
I make a living with architectural and interior photography as well as assisting addvertisement and still life photographers on commercial jobs for clients such as vodafone, esquire, range rover, chocomel, etc.
If you're interested: vincenthoutman.com
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GoldenEye
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19056507 - 10/30/13 07:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The most fun way to learn about lighting (apart from experimenting) is probably this blog:
http://guessthelighting.com/
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knarkkorven
Entheoholic


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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19056956 - 10/30/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I use a König ring light KN-RL60 (5500~6000 k temperature). It has adjustable power to the LED:s. http://pictures.content4us.com/products_high_res/KN-RL60_2.JPG Cheap, but good to have when photographing mushrooms in dark conditions. No need to have photos ruined by extreme ISO or blur due to the longer shutter time.
I also use it when I´m hunting mushrooms at night, it's great for this purpose.
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Ran-D



Registered: 12/19/10
Posts: 16,311
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: GoldenEye]
#19056980 - 10/30/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said: I have never taken photo's of mushrooms.
Well give it a shot!
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




Registered: 02/26/02
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: canid]
#19057589 - 10/30/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You know what; I'm just going to get started on it anyway. I'll probably not get it right so I can see about the color temperature stuff after I make the hardware and get started on the firmware.
--------------------
Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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vjp
Canowicakte


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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: canid]
#19116393 - 11/10/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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How do the colors look on this one?
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fry day


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp]
#19116443 - 11/10/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pretty good on my monitor. Maybe just a tad washed out. I'm used to seeing those slugs a bit darker but perhaps he's just a light one. I love their little skirts.
-------------------- "Shrub, 30-90 cm. Leaves 2.5-) 4-9 cm, sessile or amplexicaul, broadly ovate to ovate-oblong, obtuse or rounded to subapiculate or subacute, when crushed not smelling of goats." "The initial quake was a 6.6 but fairly shallow. I felt it as a prolonged up and down vibration followed by a jolt forward and then to the left, like square dancing."
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vjp
Canowicakte


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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: fry day]
#19116590 - 11/10/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Appreciate the feedback. Are the colors on this one a little better? Increased the yellow highlights a little and increased the saturation a little.
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fry day


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp]
#19116902 - 11/10/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeh, that one looks a bit better to me. But I don't bother with monitor calibration or any of that, so don't take it as gospel. ;-)
-------------------- "Shrub, 30-90 cm. Leaves 2.5-) 4-9 cm, sessile or amplexicaul, broadly ovate to ovate-oblong, obtuse or rounded to subapiculate or subacute, when crushed not smelling of goats." "The initial quake was a 6.6 but fairly shallow. I felt it as a prolonged up and down vibration followed by a jolt forward and then to the left, like square dancing."
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vjp
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: fry day]
#19116946 - 11/10/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am about to buy a calibration unit. I might just give up and blow my camera up. The picture looks weird the more i look at it.
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BittrBuffalo
Deaconica

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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: fry day] 1
#19116958 - 11/10/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm a relic from those days where people still used film and photographers were magicians. I've never liked using flashes...for obvious reasons, so I manually override everything and pretend I'm using film.
I disagree about the color balance thing being about your camera doing a crappy job at properly recording the color information (someone said that, right?)...it could be a number of things, I've found the likely culprits are the color of your flash and the fact that things are a lot more reflective than we give them credit for. (Do people still use color filters on their lenses? Or is that all post production now?)
Something I do with directional flashes is bounce the light off of bounce cards and tie lens cleaner tissue over top of the flash with a rubber band to diffuse the light. Then again, I just screw around with f-stops and shutter speed and avoid them altogether if I can. Seriously though, you really only have to worry about exposure--getting the color and contrast right has pretty much always been during the editing process, even back in the dark ages when people used to print and develop their photos on photo paper with an enlarger.  That slug making out with that shroom is sexy. I would totally do the same. Try putting some blue/violet in the shadows and increase the orange in the midtones and yellow in the highlights. You're using photoshop, right?
-------------------- Disclaimer: This post is a work of fiction, provided for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual persons or events, past or present, is strictly coincidental. All celebrity voices are impersonated. If you begin your ID request with, "I just ate a bunch of these mushrooms…should I not have done that?" I'm just gonna sit back and watch Darwin at work.
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vjp
Canowicakte


Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 3,619
Loc: Ste-ye-hah' mah
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Quote:
You're using photoshop, right?
Yea, i'm just not very familiar with it. Is this any better?
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: vjp]
#19122564 - 11/11/13 07:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the first one looks best.
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fry day


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,010
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 5 days
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Re: Photography lightingwi [Re: Byrain]
#19122763 - 11/11/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's the prob with post production for me, other than a quick contrast or sharp. Once you get deep into fiddling it all starts going sideways.
-------------------- "Shrub, 30-90 cm. Leaves 2.5-) 4-9 cm, sessile or amplexicaul, broadly ovate to ovate-oblong, obtuse or rounded to subapiculate or subacute, when crushed not smelling of goats." "The initial quake was a 6.6 but fairly shallow. I felt it as a prolonged up and down vibration followed by a jolt forward and then to the left, like square dancing."
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BittrBuffalo
Deaconica

Registered: 05/19/13
Posts: 1,729
Loc: Church of the SubGenus
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: Photography lighting [Re: fry day]
#19128019 - 11/12/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I liked your first one too. I hope this wasn't outta line...I dicked around with your photo and blew the contrast out. 
The slug looks kind of rude. 
-------------------- Disclaimer: This post is a work of fiction, provided for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual persons or events, past or present, is strictly coincidental. All celebrity voices are impersonated. If you begin your ID request with, "I just ate a bunch of these mushrooms…should I not have done that?" I'm just gonna sit back and watch Darwin at work.
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BittrBuffalo
Deaconica

Registered: 05/19/13
Posts: 1,729
Loc: Church of the SubGenus
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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This one is a bit more realistic than the one above:

Ok, I won't screw around with your work anymore.
-------------------- Disclaimer: This post is a work of fiction, provided for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual persons or events, past or present, is strictly coincidental. All celebrity voices are impersonated. If you begin your ID request with, "I just ate a bunch of these mushrooms…should I not have done that?" I'm just gonna sit back and watch Darwin at work.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
BittrBuffalo said: This one is a bit more realistic than the one above:

Ok, I won't screw around with your work anymore. 
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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