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Offlineloggrower
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Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust...
    #19039594 - 10/27/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Been doing some testing and measuring of spawn run rates. I have been using chainsaw sawdust +20% Oatmeal. I have been getting some very interesting results... I just place two Shiitake or Oyster plugs on top of the substrate in quart jars and let it run!

Now, here is the interesting thing... Different plugs within the same jar can have VERY different spawn run rates. I am maintaining temp at 72-73F, and the Shiitake is running through the substrate at everywhere from a quarter inch to three quarters of an inch per day.

So far... It appears the mycelium that got to a high speed run stays at a high speed run, and the stuff growing downward through the substrate at a quarter inch per day is staying that way. *Head scratcher...* Yes, some cases... Just on different sides of the same jar, and the mycelium is growth together in the middle. Visit my website if you want to look at a picture of how I am measuring.

Some of the Oyster stuff just detonated, and some of it is forming a thicker slower growing mass of mycelium... Everything is compacted the same and with the same moisture levels!


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19041646 - 10/27/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

loggrower said:
Been doing some testing and measuring of spawn run rates. I have been using chainsaw sawdust +20% Oatmeal. I have been getting some very interesting results... I just place two Shiitake or Oyster plugs on top of the substrate in quart jars and let it run!

Now, here is the interesting thing... Different plugs within the same jar can have VERY different spawn run rates. I am maintaining temp at 72-73F, and the Shiitake is running through the substrate at everywhere from a quarter inch to three quarters of an inch per day.

So far... It appears the mycelium that got to a high speed run stays at a high speed run, and the stuff growing downward through the substrate at a quarter inch per day is staying that way. *Head scratcher...* Yes, some cases... Just on different sides of the same jar, and the mycelium is growth together in the middle. Visit my website if you want to look at a picture of how I am measuring.

Some of the Oyster stuff just detonated, and some of it is forming a thicker slower growing mass of mycelium... Everything is compacted the same and with the same moisture levels!



That is interesting and doesn't make sence unless they are different strains. Where did the plugs come from?


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19041737 - 10/27/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They are all from the "best" west coast supplier located in Washington.

The interesting thing about their plugs is they seem to just fully colonize them, and not let them fully whiten out. Different plugs have slightly different levels of colonization...

Perhaps if I leave the plugs out of refrigeration long enough to fully whiten they will behave the same... The other possibility is that the mycelium acts different depending upon how far the plug is pushed into the substrate or left on top.

I would assume that the mycelium would all act the same once it has established more than an inch into the substrate, but that is not the case... Hmmm


Edited by loggrower (10/27/13 05:26 PM)


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19041784 - 10/27/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They aren't fluffy when you get them because they get disturbed in shipping. We shipped about 40,000 plugs last year, various strains. I would recommend letting them fuzz just a bit before you plug them into wood. Another question. If ur doing a lot of logs have you considered sawdust spawn? Way way cheaper. Ex,  We sell a five pound bag which will do approx 60 logs for 25 retail and 15 wholesale. We sell 200 plugs for the same price. Also,  I wouldn't try to expand fp plugs into sawdust if that's what ur doing. They expand that shit out to the extreme by the time you get the plugs. Prolly not worth the effort.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19041827 - 10/27/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just an experiment with a few plugs. I am going to get grain spawn from Aloha next time. I still have 10,000 Shiitake plugs to put in before the end of the month... Arr... Time to get back to work! 10,000 plugs down, 10,000 to go!

I am going to be doing a lot of Oyster wafer stacks this winter and Aloha's grain spawn should expand out nicely.

I am going to clone some of the wild oyster logs around here for person use... Their flavor is much better!


Edited by loggrower (10/27/13 05:55 PM)


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19041870 - 10/27/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, and for why not sawdust spawn... Sawdust spawn is too much hassle. I have a wax free plugging process now. I knock the plugs in to the inner bark and store the logs indoors without too much airflow. Otherwise the plugs would get dry killed by the strong dry winds we get here.

Sawdust would take too much time for the number of logs I am doing. Not to mention... Never managed to get any type of wax to stay on Red Alder bark for more than a few months in outdoor conditions.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19042435 - 10/27/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Also,  I wouldn't try to expand fp plugs into sawdust if that's what ur doing. They expand that shit out to the extreme by the time you get the plugs. Prolly not worth the effort.




:whathesaid:


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Aleon]
    #19042536 - 10/27/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do you actually have any proof or are you regurgitating paranoia? I see a lot of that on the forums... Peoples paranoid thoughts go viral.

Has anyone actually tested the spawn from different suppliers to see if they bring it down to near the last expansion before noticeable senescence? The only way to test I can think of would be to sterilize four foot long glass tubes of supplemented sawdust, grow the spawn through them one by one... And see how long until it slows/stalls.

That doesn't make any sense... If they were actually doing that their spawn would be low quality and wouldn't even grow through wood very far.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19044819 - 10/28/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

My proof is personal experience, no ones trying to trick you; we are try to help you. And no it doesn't make the spawn low quality for incoluated fruiting substrate,  it makes a low quality inocluate for making more spawn or isolating a culture from it. Senescence is real, and if you want to act like it isn't, that's fine.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Aleon]
    #19046799 - 10/28/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying it's not real. I'm saying that a lot of suppliers are selling bulkable spawn with at least one extra transfer in it.

Aloha Medicinals Website says... They say they don't even track grain transfers!

According to FP's website and books... They do a maximum of 3G2G transfers before running their spawn to sawdust and dowels. Oysters start their senescence around eight transfers. Fp's spawn is likely equivalent to 4-5G2G/G2S or G2D.


Edited by loggrower (10/29/13 04:47 PM)


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19047783 - 10/28/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

loggrower said:
I'm not saying it's not real. I'm saying that a lot of suppliers are selling bulkable spawn with at least one extra transfer in it.

According to FP's website and books... They do a maximum of 3G2G transfers before running their spawn to sawdust and dowels. Oysters start their senescence around eight transfers. Fp's spawn is likely equivalent to 4-5G2G/G2S or G2D.



Oh, I wasn't referring just to fp!  All large commercial spawn producers do the same thing. That's how they maximize profit. Irregardless, Going from a plug to sawdust is going backwards in my mind.  I know plenty if people that have cloned plugs to agar and thought they captured the strain. What they captured was a really watered down version of it.  But nothing wrong with a bit if experimentation. I just wouldn't make sawdust spawn from a plug and then plug shitloads of logs with it.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19049478 - 10/28/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nah, If I was making my own plugs I would use a master slant with some plates. I wouldn't even go past G1 before moving to substrate with the scale of my mushroom operation. I buy plugs in 10,000 lots from FP right now.

What I am experimenting with isn't really expansion... I am just putting some plugs in a quart, then once colonized... Packing that quart of spawn between a couple wafers of Red Alder to see how fast it fruits.

Btw, has anyone tried re-invigorating a semi-senescent plate by sprinkling it with tons of spores?


Edited by loggrower (10/28/13 10:51 PM)


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19049859 - 10/29/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

re-invigorating?

Clone your best shiitake off the logs when they fruit for re-invigoration. 

best to stay close to the good master (sadly this has little meaning until observed)  for production until re-inviogration is clearly obvious then name the stain after yourself and give it a number.

The reason I say sadly is because 10,000 logs, is a lot of work and unless someone used the same master culture with the same wood, in the same climate, you are randomly picking strains to use.  I have yet to see a single company show comparative fruiting data based on their own experimentation.  They acquire strains often well known and re sell them or make spawn.  The mushroom grower has to sort it all out by experiments and works with the heaviest, dirtiest, and most labor intensive aspects of mushroom cultivation.    Although the sales of fresh mushroom are easiest to the mass because they are food.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: wood chip]
    #19049968 - 10/29/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
re-invigorating?

Clone your best shiitake off the logs when they fruit for re-invigoration. 






Unless you started with a multi spore, this wont re-invigorate anything. Cloning a fruit retains the same genetic information that the original culture had and at this point it's even older.

the only way to "re-invigorate" would be to use spores to get a young culture or to go back to stored cultures that are younger and pull them out of refrigeration (or other storage technique).


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: deadmandave]
    #19050008 - 10/29/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
Quote:

wood chip said:
re-invigorating?

Clone your best shiitake off the logs when they fruit for re-invigoration. 






Unless you started with a multi spore, this wont re-invigorate anything. Cloning a fruit retains the same genetic information that the original culture had and at this point it's even older.

the only way to "re-invigorate" would be to use spores to get a young culture or to go back to stored cultures that are younger and pull them out of refrigeration (or other storage technique).



Exactly right. Multispore ultimately saves the world from senescence. Sprinkling spores on a strain isn't reinvigorating that strain, it's creating thousands of completely new ones with completely unknown and untested genetics. Isolation and testing is painstaking and time consuming. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19050068 - 10/29/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Are you sure?  rejuvenescens (asexual advantageous mutations) do not occur in fungi.

"Cloning a fruit retains the same genetic information that the original culture had and at this point it's even older."

Don't you think if the culture is older the genetic information is different? 

I agree this is true frequently, but the assertion presupposes immortally does not exist at all in fungi and a culture cannot become genitally identical and the same age or even "younger" or rejuvenated under ideal conditions after a run though a specific substrate. 









Edited by wood chip (10/29/13 02:30 AM)


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: wood chip]
    #19050251 - 10/29/13 03:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

10,000 Plug lots. Not 10,000 logs.

I can put in 3,000 plugs in a day myself.

Quote:

wood chip said:
re-invigorating?

Clone your best shiitake off the logs when they fruit for re-invigoration. 

best to stay close to the good master (sadly this has little meaning until observed)  for production until re-inviogration is clearly obvious then name the stain after yourself and give it a number.

The reason I say sadly is because 10,000 logs, is a lot of work and unless someone used the same master culture with the same wood, in the same climate, you are randomly picking strains to use.  I have yet to see a single company show comparative fruiting data based on their own experimentation.  They acquire strains often well known and re sell them or make spawn.  The mushroom grower has to sort it all out by experiments and works with the heaviest, dirtiest, and most labor intensive aspects of mushroom cultivation.    Although the sales of fresh mushroom are easiest to the mass because they are food.




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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19050659 - 10/29/13 06:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

this is why there are 'commercial' cultures that are so damn expensive!  if you really want that vigor, you gotta pay for it.  you can also use 'regular' cultures from vendors, they seem to work for me.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19050824 - 10/29/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

loggrower said:
I'm not saying it's not real. I'm saying that a lot of suppliers are selling bulkable spawn with at least one extra transfer in it.

According to FP's website and books... They do a maximum of 3G2G transfers before running their spawn to sawdust and dowels. Oysters start their senescence around eight transfers. Fp's spawn is likely equivalent to 4-5G2G/G2S or G2D.




This is totally useless info.  It matters little if one claims to do 3 grain to grain transfers or 200 grain to grain transfers unless it's validated with an amount expanded each time.

Counting number of G2G is as useless as tracking P value.  Remember, any number multiplied by zero is still zero.  3 G2G transfers with quart jars expands the mycelium much less than 3 G2G with large filter patch bags, but both had the same number of transfers.  Don't be misled by only getting part of the story.

Senescence is real, as all the experienced growers here know very well from personal experience.  Be very careful when insinuating members here are regurgitating paranoia, because your own results with unstable performance show what we are talking about, particularly with that supplier.  Since you signed a paper saying you won't divulge where you got the crappy cultures, you're screwed.  It shouldn't surprise you that the reputable spawn suppliers place no such gag order on their customers.
RR


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: wood chip]
    #19051072 - 10/29/13 09:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
Don't you think if the culture is older the genetic information is different? 





When you (human form) get older, does the information encoded in your DNA become younger or different? Not really, there are some mutations and damage that occur because of radiation and free radicals etc. but even after you have mated with someone you do not get new genetic information.

Quote:

I agree this is true frequently, but the assertion presupposes immortally does not exist at all in fungi and a culture cannot become genitally identical and the same age or even "younger" or rejuvenated under ideal conditions after a run though a specific substrate. 




Are you suggesting that mushrooms are immortal and self rejuvenating? I encourage you to pursue this and do the experiments regardless of everyone elses experience and understanding. This is how science progresses :pipesmoke:


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: deadmandave]
    #19051326 - 10/29/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nothing is immortal in the 3rd dimension, except the presence of the overmind/god. Only in the forth and higher dimensions can things exists forever.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: wood chip]
    #19051332 - 10/29/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
Are you sure?  rejuvenescens (asexual advantageous mutations) do not occur in fungi.

"Cloning a fruit retains the same genetic information that the original culture had and at this point it's even older."

Don't you think if the culture is older the genetic information is different? 

I agree this is true frequently, but the assertion presupposes immortally does not exist at all in fungi and a culture cannot become genitally identical and the same age or even "younger" or rejuvenated under ideal conditions after a run though a specific substrate. 



The mutation rate among eukaryotic organisms is about one in a million mitotic division. So yes. There are mutated cells in cultures but they are irrelevent at best and impossible to isolate. Keep in mind that the. Vast majority of these mutations have no obvious effect on the organism. A small percentage are potentially beneficial. Even so your odds of getting something "good" or "better" by relying on these asexual mutations is exceedingly slim. Sexual reproduction (in this case two spores fusing) is the single greatest source of genetic variability in eukaryotes, not mutation. Bacteria, on the other hand....mutate at a rate of one in 100 to 1000 binary fissions, making mutation much more revelant.


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19051988 - 10/29/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"Are you suggesting that mushrooms are immortal and self rejuvenating?"

I am suggesting it is possible "some" are. Clearly not "all" are and most strains die out when expanded exponentially over time.   

I am not suggesting to use a strain in mass without testing it.   

I do think strains degenerate at different rates not only because of their genes but also because of the substrate and fruiting conditions.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: wood chip]
    #19052833 - 10/29/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

My supplier with unstable performance wasn't FP... If you are talking about my first posts with failed logs. I had a small operation called "Thyme Garden" send me a few thousand plugs a couple years ago for testing...

And it turns out the Shiitake they sent me wasn't even Shiitake... LoL! It was some type of Oyster.

Fp is the only supplier I trust at the moment, followed by Aloha. The plugs aggressively colonize Red Alder. I'm kind of uncomfortable with Aloha's statement that they don't track grain transfers... As for cultures, Aloha's I would trust as much as Fp's... If I ever get the equipment to work with cultures!


Edited by loggrower (10/29/13 04:54 PM)


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Re: Spawn run rates in supplemented sawdust... [Re: loggrower]
    #19054702 - 10/29/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I was emailing my customer service contact at Fp and she confirmed that the Oyster sawdust spawn can likely be bulked another equal volume without any problems, but the plugs won't reliably expand any more.

Anyone know how long Oyster grain masters can be stored for? I am thinking about getting one... But, it would take me half a year to use it all! If it can't store that long, no go...


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