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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Registered: 10/24/09
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19040259 - 10/27/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I use a big hospital here in SD, they do everything.  If you go for a procedure and can't pay, they direct you to an office they have.  This office then checks your income, etc, and finds what benefits you actually have (VA, Medicaid, etc, depending on situation) and also has multiple sources of funding for certain levels of illness, i.e. grants, foundations, etc.  In any event they set up a plan of some kind so you can get premium care.  You might still have to pay a lot but everyone who needs the treatment gets it.

Same way with drugs--most expensive drugs have programs for people that can't afford them IF THEY ARE NECESSARY. 

Most private doctors will charge a person what they can afford--if it is legal to do so in that state.  You have to be upfront about it.  If you go for a visit and stiff them well they don't like that.

And NO emergency room will ever turn anyone away--you still had to pay for minor stuff. 

But now I'm sure all these programs that helped people who really need it will go away because we have the big ole sloppy government teat hanging out there to suck on.

People overuse their insurance so much now for the most minor things--that is one of the prime reasons it is expensive--that and liability.  Also endless reams of government intrusion/regulation have made the proliferation of healthcare much more expensive.

That is, the things that cause medical care to be expensive are NOT addressed in Obamacare--it is a cluster fuck of regulation and meddling that is guaranteed to drive prices through the roof.


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Offlinevillui
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19040276 - 10/27/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

no the idiots who think that are


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19040329 - 10/27/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Does the US have universal health care yet?

No...

I'll come back in 10 years and ask the same question



What is universal health care?




It's the thing that every other modern country have the gives everybody health insurance at a lower cost to the taxpayers




I didn't see the word insurance there so I'll ask again.  What is universal health care?  Given that very few people actually pay the vast majority of taxes how will government provided health care lower the cost of it for the actual tax payers?




Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.

Few people pay the vast majority of the taxes: Yep, that what the people have decided long ago by electing officials that then implement this type of system. That's how it works.

How to provide health care at a lower cost: I don't why, there are probably thousands of minor details that end up making a big difference, the numbers show that US health care costs your government a lot more than the countries who have implemented universal health care. Since your health care system is extremely different than the other system modern country use, I can safely assume that its not us that have cheaper health care cost, its you guys that have a more expensive system, which makes sense, it's a private for profit industry. Every middle man wants their cut


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Edited by Patlal (10/27/13 11:31 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19040362 - 10/27/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:


It's the thing that every other modern country have the gives everybody health insurance at a lower cost to the taxpayers




I didn't see the word insurance there so I'll ask again.  What is universal health care?  Given that very few people actually pay the vast majority of taxes how will government provided health care lower the cost of it for the actual tax payers?




Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.




Almost every?  How come there are so many medical tourists from Canoodia in the US?  Must be working real well.
Quote:



Few people pay the vast majority of the taxes: Yep, that what the people have decided long ago by electing officials that then implement this type of system. That's how it works.




Yes I know.  Please tell me how providing health care to millions of non-taxpayers will save tax payers money.  Thanks in advance.
Quote:



How to provide health care at a lower cost: I don't why, there are probably thousands of minor details that end up making a big difference, the numbers show that US health care costs your government a lot more than the countries who have implemented universal health care. Since your health care system is extremely different than the other system modern country use, I can safely assume that its not us that have cheaper health care cost, its you guys that have a more expensive system, which makes sense, it's a private for profit industry. Every middle man wants their cut




Part of the reason your country has lower healthcare costs is because the US government subsidizes medical research that you thus do not pay for receiving the benefits of.  Same goes for drugs.  Do not your health care bureaucrats get paid, i.e. make a profit?  Are not bureaucrats middle men?


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19040485 - 10/27/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Almost every?  How come there are so many medical tourists from Canoodia in the US?  Must be working real well.





Yeah almost every, there's always a crack here in there in every system. Canoodians go to the US because you can get faster treatment if you have the cash for it. here's been a lot of political talk about creating a two gear system that would create for profit hospital to those who can afford it. It would heal more people and reduce the waiting line in the public sector. But since its a political shitstorm, the canadian gvmt doesnt do it. People are afraid that our system would become like the US, which is false, but people scare easy


Quote:

Yes I know.  Please tell me how providing health care to millions of non-taxpayers will save tax payers money.  Thanks in advance.




It's called your duty as a citizen. It's a question of morals. Keeping people healthy is better for everyone. Kinda like the military moto, no man left behind.


Quote:

Part of the reason your country has lower healthcare costs is because the US government subsidizes medical research that you thus do not pay for receiving the benefits of.  Same goes for drugs.  Do not your health care bureaucrats get paid, i.e. make a profit?  Are not bureaucrats middle men?




Medical research is a worldwide thing. But yes, since you have a bigger population, you probably have more researchers. I have no idea how much every country contriubtes to medical research, good point.

Employees are employees, they get their paychecks and thats it. In the private system there's a boss that wants to make a profit on top of paying its employees.


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Edited by Patlal (10/27/13 12:11 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19040565 - 10/27/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Almost every?  How come there are so many medical tourists from Canoodia in the US?  Must be working real well.





Yeah almost every, there's always a crack here in there in every system. Canoodians go to the US because you can get faster treatment if you have the cash for it. here's been a lot of political talk about creating a two gear system that would create for profit hospital to those who can afford it. It would heal more people and reduce the waiting line in the public sector. But since its a political shitstorm, the canadian gvmt doesnt do it. People are afraid that our system would become like the US, which is false, but people scare easy



No kidding.
Quote:





Quote:

Yes I know.  Please tell me how providing health care to millions of non-taxpayers will save tax payers money.  Thanks in advance.




It's called your duty as a citizen. It's a question of morals. Keeping people healthy is better for everyone. Kinda like the military moto, no man left behind.




You didn't answer the question.  You said it would save taxpayers money.  How? 

OK Komrade.  My duty as a citizen extends to producing at least as much as I consume.  What about the duty of the bums?  Do they have none?  What about you?  Do you pay $5,000 a year in taxes?  That is the average cost per person of health care in Canada
Quote:




Quote:

Part of the reason your country has lower healthcare costs is because the US government subsidizes medical research that you thus do not pay for receiving the benefits of.  Same goes for drugs.  Do not your health care bureaucrats get paid, i.e. make a profit?  Are not bureaucrats middle men?




Medical research is a worldwide thing. But yes, since you have a bigger population, you probably have more researchers. I have no idea how much every country contriubtes to medical research, good point.

Employees are employees, they get their paychecks and thats it. In the private system there's a boss that wants to make a profit on top of paying its employees.




Are their paychecks not profit?  How about health union heads.  They don't do shit and make huge bank.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19040621 - 10/27/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well, I use a big hospital here in SD, they do everything.  If you go for a procedure and can't pay, they direct you to an office they have.  This office then checks your income, etc, and finds what benefits you actually have (VA, Medicaid, etc, depending on situation) and also has multiple sources of funding for certain levels of illness, i.e. grants, foundations, etc.  In any event they set up a plan of some kind so you can get premium care.  You might still have to pay a lot but everyone who needs the treatment gets it.





oh, so the hospital does what nearly every hospital does and has done for
decades, they try and find some way to help you cover your medical bills,
charity care so to speak. the very thing that I've mentioned hundreds of
times in these discussions

it still doenst explain how obamacare is supposed to help those that need
medical coverage and cant afford insurance or cant get medicaid.



Quote:

But now I'm sure all these programs that helped people who really need it will go away because we have the big ole sloppy government teat hanging out there to suck on.




nope, obamacare has a provision that threatens hospitals that have 
provided charity care of they cease to provide it in the future


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19040899 - 10/27/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Yes I know.  Please tell me how providing health care to millions of non-taxpayers will save tax payers money.  Thanks in advance.




It doesn't and it's not supposed to. That's the taking care of people part. Money doesn't have any weight here, people's health is the reason the entire system exists.

Then again, if there's a study out there on the topic, I wouldn't be surprised that if people go to the doctor when they first feel symptoms, it would cost less to heal them before they get really sick than when they need extra care because they delayed the doctors visit until it was too late.

But still. Cost efficiency shouldn't come at the cost of people's health. There are plenty other areas you can save money from. Cutting directly in the area the system was invented in the first place is counter productive


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19041141 - 10/27/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
It's the thing that every other modern country have the gives everybody health insurance at a lower cost to the taxpayers





Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.




how is it at a lower cost to the tax payer?, we know where the government
gets their dime, from the tax payer, thus we have a higher taxpayer cost
when government starts paying for medical coverage


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19041185 - 10/27/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
It's the thing that every other modern country have the gives everybody health insurance at a lower cost to the taxpayers





Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.




how is it at a lower cost to the tax payer?, we know where the government
gets their dime, from the tax payer, thus we have a higher taxpayer cost
when government starts paying for medical coverage




Correct. The money is being taken by the GST/HST. Which is the sales tax. It is roughly twice the amount you guys pay on average in the US.

But the fact still remains. The American government has the highest cost per capita in health care cost than other modern countries


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19041186 - 10/27/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:


Yes I know.  Please tell me how providing health care to millions of non-taxpayers will save tax payers money.  Thanks in advance.




It doesn't and it's not supposed to.




Then why did you say it did?
Quote:

That's the taking care of people part. Money doesn't have any weight here, people's health is the reason the entire system exists.




If money doesn't have any weight in Canoodia how come you have to pay your doctors and nurses and politicians?
Quote:



Then again, if there's a study out there on the topic, I wouldn't be surprised that if people go to the doctor when they first feel symptoms, it would cost less to heal them before they get really sick than when they need extra care because they delayed the doctors visit until it was too late.




I bet you would have an easier time finding a study that says most doctor visits are fucking bullshit.
Quote:



But still. Cost efficiency shouldn't come at the cost of people's health. There are plenty other areas you can save money from. Cutting directly in the area the system was invented in the first place is counter productive




So how come you send medical tourists to the US.  Doesn't seem all that Shroomey to me.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19041192 - 10/27/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
It's the thing that every other modern country have the gives everybody health insurance at a lower cost to the taxpayers





Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.




how is it at a lower cost to the tax payer?, we know where the government
gets their dime, from the tax payer, thus we have a higher taxpayer cost
when government starts paying for medical coverage




Correct. The money is being taken by the GST/HST. Which is the sales tax. It is roughly twice the amount you guys pay on average in the US.

But the fact still remains. The American government has the highest cost per capita in health care cost than other modern countries



How is that any of your concern?


--------------------


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19041204 - 10/27/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Patlal said:



Health insurance = the card with a number you are given when you are born that you swipe in almost every medical facility you need if you're sick which then provides you with the health care you require on the government's dime. No real need for the word insurance really, there are no insurance companies involved.




how is it at a lower cost to the tax payer?, we know where the government
gets their dime, from the tax payer, thus we have a higher taxpayer cost
when government starts paying for medical coverage




Correct. The money is being taken by the GST/HST. Which is the sales tax. It is roughly twice the amount you guys pay on average in the US.

But the fact still remains. The American government has the highest cost per capita in health care cost than other modern countries



How is that any of your concern?




It isn't. Its your problem, not mine, but its still an interesting subject to discuss


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19041205 - 10/27/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

how is it at a lower cost to the tax payer?, we know where the government
gets their dime, from the tax payer, thus we have a higher taxpayer cost
when government starts paying for medical coverage




Correct. The money is being taken by the GST/HST. Which is the sales tax. It is roughly twice the amount you guys pay on average in the US.

But the fact still remains. The American government has the highest cost per capita in health care cost than other modern countries



The American government does not pay for most American's health care.  Just the bums.  How is that any of your concern?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Patlal]
    #19041219 - 10/27/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:


It isn't. Its your problem, not mine, but its still an interesting subject to discuss




I didn't have a problem with it until now


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
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Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19041352 - 10/27/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well, I use a big hospital here in SD, they do everything.  If you go for a procedure and can't pay, they direct you to an office they have.  This office then checks your income, etc, and finds what benefits you actually have (VA, Medicaid, etc, depending on situation) and also has multiple sources of funding for certain levels of illness, i.e. grants, foundations, etc.  In any event they set up a plan of some kind so you can get premium care.  You might still have to pay a lot but everyone who needs the treatment gets it.




oh, so the hospital does what nearly every hospital does and has done for
decades, they try and find some way to help you cover your medical bills,
charity care so to speak. the very thing that I've mentioned hundreds of
times in these discussions





Not every place will try to offer charity care. For starters, even if you are a single mom enrolled in college, they do not provide charity care if you have medical insurance. Which means, if you have a high deductible over $5,000, you're shit out of luck.

I've gotten healthcare treatment from both medical facilities in wealthy areas and poor areas. Charity care did not exist in any of them except for one that was an ultrasound lab. Note that in some of these visits, they charged me thousands of dollars to lie in a hospital bed waiting for a blood test until 5am and then send me home. I did not receive pain medication or even ice for my ailments. They finally gave me ice, after I requested it, it came about 4 hours later. No charity care offered.

This was a response I received from a technician who works for UCI Medical about the experience: "Really good insurance for those hack facilities means you get "treated" and not transfered so that they can bill. Some of the facilities in your area are owned by for profit corporations that just feed off people like you that don't know anything about medicine. They "treat" you and let you go on your way hoping they don't have to settle a malpractice lawsuit and if they must settle they have the best attorneys to handle the case for a cheap settlement. Capitalism, what a win."


Edited by Crystal G (10/27/13 03:27 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Crystal G]
    #19041410 - 10/27/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Well, I use a big hospital here in SD, they do everything.  If you go for a procedure and can't pay, they direct you to an office they have.  This office then checks your income, etc, and finds what benefits you actually have (VA, Medicaid, etc, depending on situation) and also has multiple sources of funding for certain levels of illness, i.e. grants, foundations, etc.  In any event they set up a plan of some kind so you can get premium care.  You might still have to pay a lot but everyone who needs the treatment gets it.




oh, so the hospital does what nearly every hospital does and has done for
decades, they try and find some way to help you cover your medical bills,
charity care so to speak. the very thing that I've mentioned hundreds of
times in these discussions





Not every place will try to offer charity care. For starters, even if you are a single mom enrolled in college, they do not provide charity care if you have medical insurance. Which means, if you have a high deductible over $5,000, you're shit out of luck.




What do you mean you're shit out of luck?  You have insurance that covers disasters
Quote:



I've gotten healthcare treatment from both medical facilities in wealthy areas and poor areas. Charity care did not exist in any of them except for one that was an ultrasound lab. Note that in some of these visits, they charged me thousands of dollars to lie in a hospital bed waiting for a blood test until 5am and then send me home. I did not receive pain medication or even ice for my ailments. They finally gave me ice, after I requested it, it came about 4 hours later. No charity care offered.




Did you pay the bill?  If not you got charity care
Quote:





This was a response I received from a technician who works for UCI Medical about the experience: "Really good insurance for those hack facilities means you get "treated" and not transfered so that they can bill. Some of the facilities in your area are owned by for profit corporations that just feed off people like you that don't know anything about medicine. They "treat" you and let you go on your way hoping they don't have to settle a malpractice lawsuit and if they must settle they have the best attorneys to handle the case for a cheap settlement. Capitalism, what a win."




Really?  You remember that entire exchange verbatim such that you were able to put it in quotation marks?  I'm going to call bullshit on this one.


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19041487 - 10/27/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I literally copied and pasted it because our exchange was through text. I went back and found what he wrote around 10 months ago, and pasted it here.

And of course I paid for it, otherwise my credit score would have been ruined. Apparently the county or the state did not offer to help assistance for the costs. It cost me close over $400 a month and I'm still paying for the last of it. :bored: I plan on starting up a business overseas in the next few years, I can't take any chances with my credit score.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19041517 - 10/27/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you were able to pay for it yourself why should anybody else have to do it?  I like you Crystal but you indulge in a lot of self destructive behavior and you are going to have to do a lot of tap dancing to explain why you think anybody else should be inconvenienced by it.  Not for nothing but the technician should go fuck himself.  He draws a paycheck from the company.  Let him work for free if he hates profit so much.


--------------------


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: Is Obamacare raping us? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19041810 - 10/27/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, he does bring up some interesting points about healthcare that are worthy of addressing. Namely, is it right for medical "corporations" to take advantage of people who aren't aware of what standard protocol is for adequate healthcare? Because I had no problems paying for my ultrasounds and lab tests and all that. Even though none of it was covered under my insurance and I had to pay out of pocket, which cost me $3K or so, I was fine paying for that out of pocket. Because I got the healthcare and medical attention that I deserved.

What I completely disagree with paying, was that one hospital fee, where they literally did nothing except give me a blood test and make me lie in a bed all night, and ignored my cries of pain, and I did not even get any assistance from anybody all throughout the night. I really feel like I should not have had to pay for that kind of shit treatment, nor should anybody.


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