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 Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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 Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spore Printing!  23
#19035259 - 10/26/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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HI! 
I'm here with this technique essay to discuss the simple handling and selection of ideal Cubensis cultures, a topic that seems quite under-discussed!
Culturing is the most important avenue of mycology, be it professional or home hobby. It's possible to grow without culturing but it's likened to throwing countless random seeds of a plant into a field, accepting whatever may come. With quite little materials and effort it's easy to select mycelium that is fast, hardy, prolific, and potent.
But of first importance is being able to handle mycelium apart from contaminant organisms!
It should (but won't) go without saying that this is sterile work to be done in a still-air box or in sterile laminar airflow.
*** This was developed as a culturing approach to a grow method that is essentially a scaled version of this but with more substrate in the container, inoculated with the final cultures, fruited in a variety of humidity chambers, and watered for repeated flushes.
That method, just a small later facet of this culturing approach, is found Here and is thought to be my most significant post here... although it is not - you're in it currently! ***
GRAINWATER AGAR
 
This liquid left over from brown rice or grass seed preparations is a suspension of the same nutritive goods the grains contain. It makes for no-extra-cost agar and works great! Why dump this great stuff down the drain? That amounts to boiling out and throwing away a part of one's paid-for value.
Malt extract is a derivative of grain so malt solutions for agar could be considered a grainwater made from purified concentrate!
For firm agar use 9-10g for 500mL, or .5g per 25mL.
Agar from brown rice may look nearly clear when shallow but mycelium are nonetheless able to get more than they need from just the surface alone. Agar from grass seed may be very dark but visibility is great from above.
Spores germinating on ricewater agar:
Transfers quickly recovering & taking off:
   
Grainwater can be frozen for later thaw and use!
CONTAINER AGAR DISHES
These screw-top containers (I greatly prefer the Ziploc brand) are recycling code 5 which holds up perfectly under hi-pressure temperature (as long as the cooker doesn't run out of water).
Requiring no modification whatsoever, they are sterilized with the lids slightly cracked loose. Do not attempt to sterilize them while sealed!
On the left, a sealed container. Seal them while removing from the sterilizer until and after inoculation.
On the right, a container with the lid very loose but still threaded in to where it does not come off when lifted. This is the loosest it should be for sterilization, but it's more loose than it should be for anything except maybe growing grains invitro.
In the middle, how I suggest keeping lids cracked - for sterilization or when one's project comes to involve a bit of gas exchange.
This is about One to Two of the "notches" around the edge of the lid.
Amongst their many uses, pint (16oz) containers are re-usable sterilizable "petri" dishes, or simply said, agar dishes.
They have a very wide area per dish for colonies to run-out, possibly coming to require fewer transfers and dishes. The photos above of growth on ricewater agar are examples of these in use.
25mL of solution is enough for each dish, so 500mL of prepared agar still makes 20.
Agar can be mixed in a large batch and distributed, or for small or quick batches ~0.5g of agar-agar powder can be put in each container with 25mL.
I have found using these containers to be far favorable to single-use dispose plastic petris for several reasons:- Use a container as such 8-12 times and it's paid for itself and used only a fraction of the plastic, with still more uses to come! I feel all plastics should be permanent-application where possible instead of the revolting wastes of plastic today.
- They can be "pre-pour" sterilized and opened just once for better sterile success chances!
- Since there's no pour involved, they can be allowed to cool however and used whenever instead of making sure to catch it & pour before solidified.
- They have a very wide area for mycelium to run out, so likely fewer dishes and transfers will be necessary, and there's more inoculation power from each one.
- Since they close air-tight no parafilm need be bought or messed with.
I also find them preferable to any other container I have purchased to these ends and others. Their use for any is ideal, and they also can be used for nearly anything!
The only potential drawback I have experienced is the higher sides. This likely will not bother you depending on how well you can handle agar with a scalpel or other choice tool. I quickly learned how to use them without trouble and now experience only the advantages listed above.
Edited by Violet (07/20/19 01:42 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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 Culturing • ABOUT SELECTING IDEAL CULTURES [Re: Violet] 2
#19035260 - 10/26/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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ABOUT SELECTING IDEAL CULTURES
Ideal cultures are those with as much as possible of these traits combined: Speed and veracity of colonization, quickness until fruiting initiation, where pins prefer to form, abort likelihood, number of pin sites and number of pins at each, size of those fruits which combined totals "yield", and great potency.
Additionally we may observe and select by physical appearance of fruits, physical appearance of mycelium, apparent susceptibility to contamination, sporulation if much or little/none is desired, dense or hollow stems, and one may even go so far as taste although this is mostly left to the realm of culturing edible species.
It is my opinion that those factors be considered in the following order of priority:
1. YIELD. This is not concerned simply with a large first flush but the total yield per a spent substrate.
2. POTENCY, which truly is yield also. If two cultures yield the same but one is more potent that one has actually yielded more; a hugely-yielding strain with no potency is still useless. This is equal to raw yield in importance but is the last factor that can be determined.
3. LOCATION OF PIN SITES makes the difference between clean or hasslesome harvests. It can also effect abort rate (side-pins are more likely to abort) and thus yield.
4. SPEED OF FRUITING. There's no point in waiting around for a culture that hogs fruiting chamber space for extra time without any other advantage. This is especially important when it comes to fruiting directly from whole grains, where most cultures seem to take their sweet time. That factor refers to nutrition tolerance. Another significant factor is CO2 tolerance... if possible, we want strains to pin fast even within enclosure.
5. NUMBER OF PINS PER PIN SITE / FRUIT SIZE. Yield comes from the interaction of these two factors. We want as high as possible of a value of both simultaneously. The most numerous field of pins may abort or grow to be small fruits; the largest of fruits may grow alone. The best is likely to produce a great number of medium-sized fruits, so dense clusters of well-sized mushrooms is ideal.
6. EASE OF RELEASE AT HARVEST. For me this has become very important. My favorite champion cultures are those that pluck easily from their substrate with little effort. They do not call for cutting in order to avoid damaging the substrate which is especially important for keeping casing layers healthy and full.
7. ABORT LIKELIHOOD. This is a lower priority simply because it is only potentially of significant relevance. If a certain culture forms 3 times as many pins as another, a 50% abort rate is not actually a problem as there are still more pins capable of growing fully.
8. SPEED OF COLONIZATION. It's very nice to have a quickly-colonizing culture, but for sterile work it comes to make little difference as long as the culture isn't simply slow. Fortunately strong fruiting strains are often plenty quick. I care about this one a lot solely due to pickiness, and this method allows for speed to be selected for first.
9. SUSCEPTIBILITY TO CONTAMINATION. Some cultures can be early giving way to Trich & company before the sub's potential is fully used, but this has more to do with the health and nutrition of the cake
10. PHYSICAL APPEARANCE OF FRUITS AND/OR MYCELIUM. Mushrooms have many different likeable aesthetics, with many novel possibilities. Some people care for more consistently rhizomorphic mycelium.
11. SPORULATION. Good cultures should be heavy sporulators to keep the line going, but a strong fruiter that drops few/no spores is very nice and tidy to have also, and should be considered preferable for long-term storage and wide use.
Few strains are prolific pinners. Not all strains fruit sizably. Most strains will pin in side-pin microclimates if they're available, and many will even pin against the sides and create side-pin microclimates anyway.
Of the few top-yielding strains, not all will stubbornly fruit on the intended fruiting surface like we want them to. Of the strains that will hardily fruit on the intended surface instead of side-pin, not all will give top yield. The rare strains found to be ideal in both will still need to be compared for potency!
Once such a specimen is found it should be kept carefully for years and years to come!
The younger our cultures, the better. Mycelium's "age" regards how much it has expanded since germination & mating, multiplying towards and through senescence where performance gradually then drastically drops. By minimizing the expansion required to find and isolate the genes we want & keeping un-expanded samples of them on reserve we can use & expand a single strain seemingly endlessly.
Such culture practise done well results in master cultures that can be spread world-wide and be eaten by millions of people, such as the famous Shiitake75 and so many others, shown again and again to colonize most veraciously and yield most prolifically.
Just a little setup, patient observation, careful transfers, and in this case some small-scale testing, makes for unimaginable differences in ease and effectiveness for lifetimes.
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There are many ways to go about finding a strong fruiting strain of Cubensis, but removing factors of randomness and guessing greatly reduces the sterile work, materials, energy, and space involved. "Cloning" mushroom pins/fruits by taking a sample to agar is a great shortcut to reducing mycelium one handles to fruiting strains.
However this has usually involved expanding to colonize a fruiting substrate and expanding as a mushroom, capable of re-expanding but naturally expecting to die and decay, so it's possible that mycelium has expanded very much by the time the genetics are isolated. Further, depending on the fruiting scenario the clone is taken from we may be somewhat blind to the quality of our selections.
We can set-up conditions where the strongest genetics are as much more likely to shine out from the mix as possible.
Cloning from a "bulk" substrate grow may be a great quick & easy shortcut to finding cultures trusted to do well in those scenarios again. However the amount of expansion involved prior is the most extreme, and there are some aspects to it that can bring haze to identifying and selecting ideal genes.
In brief, RATIO OF FRUITING SURFACE AREA TO SUBSTRATE SIZE.
This 'value' greatly effects the concentration of fruits and thus our ability to clearly perceive how densely-fruiting the genetics we're seeing really are.
Consider two divisions of a single substrate, each with the same 9 square inches in fruiting surface area. One is 1 inch deep and the other is 3 inches deep, colonized with the same culture. The 3-inch-deep substrate has 3x the fruiting capacity, but the greater number/size of fruits it will attempt to grow have but the same surface area to fruit from.
Thus a mycelium genetic that will grow sparse single fruits may nonetheless grow side-to-side on the deeper sub in what appears to be clusters and quite a prolific amount, while the more shallow substrate more easily shows in macro what the genetic's solitary fruiting traits really are.
There are more factors as well that are not explained or understood as simply but are no less at work. Large substrates, particularly bulk substrates dense with water mass, tend to grow larger mushrooms. Nobody can complain about a good yield of big guys, and my early clones were almost always such specimens, but I've come to accept that this is a poor way to select cultures. They tend towards a few hard-to-dehydrate giants that would suit 4 people instead of plentiful quick-drying clusters of numerous fruits. (I also believe smaller fruits to be capable of a slightly greater potency.)
As I gradually moved over to my current grow style as shown in the seed & plastic tek I realized that my somewhat-prized cultures, mostly clones from rye/coir sub mixes, were simply not as close to top-notch as I thought. For some of the reasons named above, they appeared about equally prolific on bulk substrate but their differences and limited adequacies were made quite clear from the small & efficient substrates I then used instead.
So I'm here to advise using very small substrates to both find & test the capabilities of our selected genes!
With my grow tek this naturally comes to manifest as what I affectionately call…
Edited by Violet (12/19/17 02:30 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet] 4
#19035262 - 10/26/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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MAJOR ADDENDUM!
Use grass seed!
Because of the greater volume of the seed, the nutrition is spread-out and thus in a sense "dilute".
Cubensis greatly prefers to fruit from sites of no nutrition, whether it didn't have any or has all been consumed.
For invitro fruiting of (uncased) grains, grass seed is the only substrate of choice.
Had I used grass seed for the culturing and photos taken in this thread I would have had much clearer results with a greater likelihood of top fruiting.
Although all the photos of this tech are taken with brown rice, grass seed is by far the suggested grain-of-choice for these methods.
Here I have written the process by which I use the below method to observe, select, and test for ideal cultures.
It's a thorough step-by-step of my process so I'd rather link to it than insert so much text here.
GRAIN "PETRIS"
  
Containers are loaded ~1/2 inch deep with prepared brown rice or grass seed.
Brown rice works, as does millet (maybe even a bit better), but grass seed has notably superior results. The seed is lighter per volume, and fills that volume ideally to make a seamless puck without extra depth, so a pound goes a longer way.
It's an ideal substrate for Cubensis, yet its lightness and volume make it nutritionally more "dilute" in a sense as well.
This makes it the ideal single substrate for growing Cubensis, which will have greater troubles and longer delays finding a suitable pinning location on increasingly nutrition-dense substrates.
The goal is to make them as evenly shallow as one can without having holes in the flat cake-to-be. (Grass seed makes this perfect easy)
Sterilization times are very short, 15PSI 30-35 minutes depending on cooker load and gas/electric. 25 minutes may work for light-loaded small cookers on gas burners, 40 may become necessary for tall cookers loaded high on electric stove eyes.
 ( )
Inoculate just like an agar dish - right in the middle. ("Dig in" the wedge a bit amongst the grains if you like and can do so without risking sterility; not necessary)
My preference is a single transfer directly from a sterile multi-spore dish with many spore flakes, cuts not made adjacent to each other. This keeps expansion to a mere 3 inches before a clone is possible while giving more genetic diversity opportunity to make a show!
Mycelium growing out into the rice:
   
I love this little trick! These have many advantages.
- THEY PIN! Mycelium may pin on agar but this often isn't indicative of much more than capability to fruit as they are tiny and usually abort tiny. However these small grain substrates form full pins like any other and are capable of easily growing mature fruits.
- Spore solutions are finally easily usable for proper culturing from spore. Just a drop or two in the middle is enough! Instead of leaving loose water all over the surface of agar or favoring and spreading bacteria, they germinate and grow outward just like a spore syringe inoc on grain but in "petri" form!, expanding no more than necessary before selections and never destroying/recovering colonies.
- Transfers can be done easily and quickly with sterile tweezers! Single grains, chunks, or pins can be moved in a second with the easiest of tools to handle.
- After their use, instead of becoming waste they can be allowed to play out as a mini-grow! With a cracked lid and little bit of bottom-watering they can have up to the grow power of a small or regular PF cake that requires no fruiting chamber. Even your "lab waste" can yield, making full use of energy and work! (More about this kind of invitro growing is seen in the sections below)
Here is the "first flush" "lab waste" from 6-7 small rice pucks after cloning pins:
 
Here I "bottom-water" these, allowing them to have the moisture they need for more!
The pins (advantage #1) are my main purpose for using this method. It's an extremely easy way to "clone", simply transferring the still-sterile pins via tweezer to a new agar dish, which not only allows for absolutely minimal expansion but selecting genes that want to cluster even on tiny substrates
They may pin on their own with time, but when they've colonized over all the grains I crack the lids loose a bit to allow excess CO2 to be pushed out and a very small amount of gas exchanged. This may help prompt a show of pins from genetics responsive to the cultivator's shift from colonizing to fruiting conditions.
This container has had lids loose for several days:
You can see that the condensation near the top of the container has evaporated. This is a pretty ideal looseness.
This is not, however:
All of the moisture has evaporated. It's a slight difference between the two, a difference exaggerated by the thinness of the substrate within and how easily it can loose its little moisture.
As a rule-of-thumb I generally loosen the lids by turning them a little over an inch counter-clockwise. For Ziploc containers this is the width of the little nodes along the lids.
Some pins that emerged very quickly from the recently colonized outer edge of a rice puck:
There are options to choose from. At the top a bit to the left a single fat pin that may grow tall. At the bottom another sizable pin with just a single small partner at its feet. On the left a nice cluster with some large fruits but that are deformed or mutated. I choose the sizely member of a medium cluster on the right.
 
Pins make for not only incredibly easy transfers but powerfully reductive selections in a single transfer and dish!
 
This here is EXACTLY what I was looking for – a quick-fruiting dense cluster of pins at the top edge of the substrate despite a welcoming side-pin environment just half an inch away. I took a few samples from this and labeled them accordingly to paying extra attention.
  Same container later: 
Absolutely beautiful. I was happy to see this in just one of eight quart invitro containers (you'll read about these below).
Multiple clustering sizeable pins that seem not concerned about hiding in the side-pin microclimates.
Cubensis likes to pin on places with no nutrition, either with none originally or where they've consumed it, so the high nutrition density of brown rice leads them to seek other places to pin from. This is almost unavoidable, but can give different observational opportunities for selecting cultures.
All-over the sides of the containers are specimens that show to be masters of migration – migrating nutrition and water that is – pinning numerously on bare-naked plastic closest to the edges of the lid where gas is exchanged and moisture lost. A few samples of pins from dense areas are taken, especially of clusters in densely-pinning areas.
Many of those fruits became full size, so large that they fell and ripped the mycelium network off the container sides!
How did that mushroom get so big? Mycelium migrated ten whole grams of water to that one single pin, four inches up the side of bare plastic!
That is quite a gene to snag. Not only did it not hide in the sidepin microclimates but went well out of its way to grow on a bare & exposed surface close to the gas exchange where the moisture is lost!, migrating large amounts of moisture quite a distance over just several days.
Mycelium are truly amazing. They have abilities that past techniques don't take full advantage of.
 
Sweet! Even after taking 2 pins earlier, there are still tons of them growing from this agar wedge. They fruit from the grainwater agar and migrate water up from below.
I'm particularly interested in the two expressions of genetics shown above, for growing mushrooms on only agar...
 
Prolific pins are great but I still ignore them if they insist on forcing side-pinning.
The 2nd photo above is an example of one I may be willing to give a second shot to. Perhaps the environment on top of this cake is drier than my fruiting conditions will be, due to a lid screwed too loose.
Pins will take a few days to fuzz-up and start growing across the agar.
 
It's best to transfer pins as early as possible into maturity.
Some sterile pins transferred quite late:
   
At a certain point they may even continue to mature and open sporulating caps. We definitely don't want that for a clone dish.
These dishes were all started with small pins:
     
Growth is much more ideal; these cultures are and will continue to be more healthy and vigorous.
From there it's a snap to isolate the fastest & strongest of the mycelium that grows from the pin and start a small test batch!
* Test batches of cultures should also be on small substrates for the same reasons mentioned in the prior post (clarity due to fruiting area/substrate size ratio etc.) as well as others. Large batches are needlessly large failures if the strain is little good, a problem even more likely when not selecting fruiting strains first! Also, failures of tests due to contams on the likes of monotubs (which happened to me too many times) are incredibly annoying and wasteful speed bumps in determining a culture's ability.
Here I outline exactly how I utilize this culturing technique to select the best cultures from a round, from cloning to testing.
Edited by Violet (03/11/15 10:44 AM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Culturing • INVITRO GROWING [Re: Violet] 1
#19035268 - 10/26/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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CONTAINER INVITRO GROWING
I've really been enjoying this style of invitro. These containers work as perfectly self-contained tunable fruiting chambers, making each one a single instance of the complete growing process. Success rate is extremely high, yield can be near ideal, and it's ridiculously quick and easy. Combined with bottom-watering it is an ultimate neglect tek.
I've actually given this method its own tek post, as I think it deserves it! It's an excellent beginners method, or one for culturers as per this tek, or just lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, people who just want to try some alternatives and maybe fall in love with the ease and simplicity.
Containers (especially quarts/litres) are loaded just about 1/4 full to leave fruiting space, sterilized, inoculated and colonized.
 
On the left, colonized with grass seed. On the right, brown rice.
They grow dense as always:
    
Those containers are slightly larger than the pints, holding about 20oz. They are excellent for small invitro grows especially to test the strength of a culture using small substrates.
Some genetics might do better than others in an invitro circumstance such as these.
For using brown rice or any other grain besides grass seed, an invitro casing layer is likely required for optimal results
Fruiting conditions are initiated by cracking the lid moderately to very loose. It will take some experience to learn intuitively how loose to leave them for full fruiting since maturing fruits greatly increase the amount of mycelium exuding CO2.
  
A nice first flush for multi-spore on a small substrate, even after taking some of its best first pins for clones.
It's given a tad of water to absorb for the next round!
With good culture, good conditions, and bottom-watering, quart invitro containers are capable of reaching almost the same yields as other typical "violet tek" style cakes in a very discrete and low-energy fashion. Tiny invitros are even capable of PFtek-like yields.
However it's their ability to retain sterility that makes them useful when there's no need for their discretion.
Sterile cloning like from grain petris is of course possible, but for the same reason it's a cinch to get...
Edited by Violet (04/05/17 05:18 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Culturing • STERILE SPORE PRINTING [Re: Violet] 5
#19035270 - 10/26/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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ASEPTIC SPORE PRINTING
Considered an oxymoron by most that I've seen on these forums. It's often said that "No spore print is sterile, since fruits do not grow in sterile conditions." These ones do.
 
Sporulating caps can be held with sterile tweezers:
... while stems are cut as close to the gills as possible by another sterile tool (I use small hygiene scizzors, scalpels should work):
...then transferred into containers sterilized with square rectangles inside them.
 
Lid the containers before leaving to drop spores.
If the edges of the cap are turned up enough it's pretty easy to see the progress.
This below is after 10 hours.
 
After enough time has passed to leave a hardy print (8-30 hours depending on sporulation) the cap can be removed again with sterile tweezers or by carefuly poking into (not through) the cap with a pin or something.
Don't worry if the print is smudged in the process of removing the cap. It's all sterile so nothing is compromised.
But, a little trick I have to avoid this from happening:
With the tweezers against one edge of the cap, turn the container on its side in the direction of the tweezers, causing the cap to drop away from the foil onto the tweezers.
Allow the print to dry. In sterile laminar airflow this happens quickly with the container's lid off. In a still-air/glove box the lid should be left loose, even cracked upwards on one side of the top, to allow the print to gradually dry without contaminants falling downwards onto it.
Once the print is ready to go, only alcohol'd gloves need touch the edges to close it up and fold over the edges.
Placed into a fresh baggie (inside is sterile) this print can be opened and used with a 100% chance of sterility! (Given proper sterile tech of course)
I feel that taking one's prints in a fashion that guarantees sterility is a must. As I say, "start sterile, stay sterile." Once culture sterility is achieved it's easy to keep it that way, even from one spore to the next.
This technique ensures one's prints to be of top quality, a show of courtesy and convenience not only to yourself but anyone who receives your work as a gift or in trade. After all, the point is to share a sample of a single organism, so we've not done it right if there is more than one species in the sample!
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Thanks for reading! Hope you enjoyed it even a tenth as much as I enjoy using this method!
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (09/30/17 08:31 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19035380 - 10/26/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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 OregonMushys
Rye Wata Whippin
Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 280
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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You swooped the 'sterile spore printing' idea from me. I was gonna post that  i been takin 'sterile prints' from invitro fruiting containers for a bit now, just never got around to post it. You should filter the lids of the printing containers to eliminate all that moisture on the foil.
EDIT: by definition thr is no such thing as a sterile spore print, but taking a print from invitro is as clean as it can get.
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Ps. Cubensis Ps. Cyanescens Ps. Stuntzii *GrowLog*
  
  
Edited by OregonMushys (10/26/13 02:53 PM)
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Sagescruffy
CH
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 2,011
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 8 months, 27 days
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19035460 - 10/26/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Awesome!
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Love.   
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 666 
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19035582 - 10/26/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Malt extract is a derivative of grain so malt solutions for agar could be considered a grainwater made from purified concentrate!
Your 'grainwater' shares NO characteristics with malt, and does not contain the sugars present in malt extract. The malting process of grain involves germination until the acrospire grows, modifying the staches in the endosperm. The starches of this malted grain is then converted to 'malt' via a conversion in liquid at appox 68ºc. This is then reduced under a vacuum, and spray-dry techniques are used to make malt extract.
So while your 'grainwater' may work fine for these purposes, people need to be aware that it's not even close to being a substitute for malt extract.
And I have no idea what "made from a purified concentrate" is supposed to mean.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19035737 - 10/26/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Not even close to being a substitute for malt extract." You cannot say it's not even close as a substitute when here it is clearly being a complete substitute. I haven't used malt extract in over a year. It may not be due to the switch but I experience the best agar performance I've ever had.
My point is that malt is a single extracted material from grains (which you also pointed out) and that grain prep water contains the same spectrum of materials that the grains do which are clearly far more than enough for what Cubensis needs, as well as many other species (every species I've worked with so far which is Many!)
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 666
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet] 1
#19035774 - 10/26/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:that grainwater contains the same spectrum of materials that the grains
But it does not contain the same spectrum of 'materials' that malt extract does. I'm not suggesting it will or won't work, but it's not even close to being malt extract. How that impact mycelium growth remains to be seen . I'm sure it would work, hell dogfood works.
And for all the time and mess, plus timing issues, or storage requirements, for your grainwater against having malt extract quickly and readily on hand, there's really no point, apart from it being another 'novel' idea of yours. There's plenty of people wishing to reinvent the wheel, and good luck to you, if it works.
Cost of 1lb malt extract = $4.50
Cost of 20g malt extract = 20 cents
Cost of malt extract per 20mL solution for plate = 1/2 a cent !
Cost saving by using grainwater = an almost irrelevant arguement
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong] 3
#19035840 - 10/26/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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"An almost irrelevant argument." Yet you're the one making it here, yes?
Sure malt is cheap. However its cheapness is no concern of mine because spending even a dime on it is a waste since I don't need it, I already buy grains.
Thanks for your demeaning posts.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong] 1
#19035845 - 10/26/13 01:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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some peeps , wanna make every grow a oliver twist contest.
im convinced.
violet writes a great tek,
with great practical value.
and barong, likes malt. alot.
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Edited by anne halonium (10/26/13 01:54 PM)
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 666
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium]
#19035862 - 10/26/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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And thank you (both of you)for spreading poorly researched misinformation.
keep using those chemical fertilisers on your grows !
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium]
#19035880 - 10/26/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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whatever barong......
can of malt on the tracks, wont stop the nitro V train.
i would note, ive never been fond of foil,
as i prefer baby food bottle bags ( sterile), and slides.
sometimes i combine both.
i totally endorse the rest of this thread though.
i wanna see more violet pics of boomers in quart PP5s!
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Edited by anne halonium (10/26/13 02:17 PM)
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19036014 - 10/26/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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If spore prints were sterile nothing would grow from them.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Mush4Brains]
#19036091 - 10/26/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like Sterile Spores. It's nicely written.
I've considered doing something similar, but with 1/2 pint wide mouths. PP5 containers might actually be better though because of the size.
Couple questions though.
1) How are you introducing sterile FAE for fruiting? Periodically opening in front of flowhood? SAB?
2) Are you bottom watering? Using sterile water?
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anne halonium
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, [Re: Mush4Brains]
#19036099 - 10/26/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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so far, a can of malt hurled, and graffiti on the overpass.
nitro V train keeps rollin.
of note,
theres a wide variety of PP5 containers that work with this.
its direct, its easy, it performs.
spits question above seems legit.
FAE isnt an issue when done as shown , its a mater off loose lids.
bottom watering, would be assumed.
lets see what else violet has to share..........
Edited by anne halonium (10/26/13 03:11 PM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Mush4Brains]
#19036103 - 10/26/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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In this context, "sterile" means does not contain anything but the desired spores.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19036192 - 10/26/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks!
1) Gas exchange is simply from slightly loose lids. The bottom of the lid's threads sits on the top of the container's threads, keeping the seal of the lid just off the edge of the container. Similar to how still-air boxes work, contaminants do not easily drift in. During the rounds of pin transfers that the grain petri photos are from I tweezered 20 pins to 20 agar containers. They've all grown out with 0 contams.
2) After the first flush I do bottom-water as to make the most of everything. Based on potential 200-330% BE, the 22 dry grams of rice in a grain petri could yield 4.5-8 grams. More per larger the invitro.
I use sterile water for this only when I want to retain sterility for the following flushes. Plain water works once fully colonized.
:]
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19036264 - 10/26/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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1) I still wonder if your prints are still actually sterile. I'm not saying "they're not".
Pins are very aggressive when transferred and will usually outrun most contams, so I'm not sure that's a perfect qualifier.
Even if they are not totally sterile, I bet they are at least clean as hell and worth the effort.
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MaJiK_420
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19039218 - 10/27/13 03:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You sure do catch a lot of flak on your posts Violet. You go against the grain and think for yourself, and I appreciate that. I still love doing monotubs, who doesn't love seeing a tub full of mushrooms? but you got me hooked on the plastic containers and I like some of the options you present here.
I wish I had a picture... actually I think I do somewhere, but im too tired to find it, but I had a colonized pp5 that I emptied out for spawn and then put a lid on it and it went in my dirty bin. finally get around to cleaning a week or two later and just from the seeds stuck to the side of the plastic, they all networked together and grew a mushroom from bottom to top and halfway back down. I dropped my jaw, is was spindly and the cap was tiny, but it had to have been 6-7 inches. Anyway I thought it was pretty remarkable. Amazing that such little can still produce fruit, like your rice patties. good stuff.
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anne halonium
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: MaJiK_420]
#19040342 - 10/27/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MaJiK_420 said:
You go against the grain
actually its WITH the grain......
but ,i see your point lol.
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bodhisatta  
Smurf real estate agent
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium]
#19040614 - 10/27/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm pleasantly surprised.
Some of these ideas will make it into my future grows.
I've been on the pp5 train since I started, it's an obvious vessel for this hobby compared to glass.
As for the grain water/ malt extract being substitutes for eachother.
Wouldn't the mushrooms have the enzymes necessary anyway to treat both as the "same"
150F mash turns starches to sugars by enzymatic reaction so LME has sugars more than starches that the grain water would have. Either way the mycellium can eat it and turn it into the same amount of energy I would imagine.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/27/13 12:43 PM)
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OgreLokon
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19041148 - 10/27/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I love reading your Teks, Violet! Always detailed and very well written. 
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MaJiK_420
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: OgreLokon]
#19042073 - 10/27/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm gonna try the brown rice thing, but I was wondering, how do you prepare the brown rice?
I assume you hydrate it and let it dry... but any specifics? I'll do a search but I figured it might be something worth addressing here.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: MaJiK_420]
#19042120 - 10/27/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MaJiK_420 said:
I had a colonized pp5 that I emptied out for spawn and then put a lid on it and it went in my dirty bin. finally get around to cleaning a week or two later and just from the seeds stuck to the side of the plastic, they all networked together and grew a mushroom from bottom to top and halfway back down. I dropped my jaw, is was spindly and the cap was tiny, but it had to have been 6-7 inches. Anyway I thought it was pretty remarkable. Amazing that such little can still produce fruit, like your rice patties.
It absolutely is wonderful. A single grain can sustain a mushroom 10 times its size, as long as the network can pull moisture from anywhere. Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
MaJiK_420 said:
You go against the grain
actually its WITH the grain......
but ,i see your point lol.
I love a good pun! Lamer, better!
Quote:
MaJiK_420 said:
I'm gonna try the brown rice thing, but I was wondering, how do you prepare the brown rice?
I assume you hydrate it and let it dry... but any specifics? I'll do a search but I figured it might be something worth addressing here.
And someone got iffy with me about posting my grain preparation...
Rice is easy to prepare, just have to make sure you don't overdo it!
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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MaJiK_420
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19042157 - 10/27/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Awesome, thanks for the quick reply.
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wildernessjunkie
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: MaJiK_420]
#19050205 - 10/29/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19052520 - 10/29/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:A single grain can sustain a mushroom 10 times its size
You really are redefining science. Is that by weight or by size? Need clarification before I mathematically disprove the possibility of this ever happening.
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bodhisatta
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19052725 - 10/29/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
barong said:
Quote:
Violet said:A single grain can sustain a mushroom 10 times its size
You really are redefining science. Is that by weight or by size? Need clarification before I mathematically disprove the possibility of this ever happening.
Dry a mushroom and grind it into a powder, you'll see just how little non-water material a mushroom is. I do doubt that a single grain can make a mushroom 10 times its size, but a single grain can make a mushroom large enough you wouldn't imagine it having came from a single grain.
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barong
Nada
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19052968 - 10/29/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
barong said:
Quote:
Violet said:A single grain can sustain a mushroom 10 times its size
You really are redefining science. Is that by weight or by size? Need clarification before I mathematically disprove the possibility of this ever happening.
Dry a mushroom and grind it into a powder, you'll see just how little non-water material a mushroom is. I do doubt that a single grain can make a mushroom 10 times its size, but a single grain can make a mushroom large enough you wouldn't imagine it having came from a single grain.
For weight, it's not even close to being possible. Grain vs hydrated grain is a ratio of roughly 1:16. For a mushroom that's 90% water, how on earth is the transfer possible? It defies logic and completely goes against bioefficiency observations from RENOWNED AND CREDIBLE GROWERS such as Paul Stamets & Marc Keith
Let's look at it another way. For every 3 grams of grain, would you expect to get 30 grams of wet shrooms? If so, then this TEK truly is magical, to turn a tiny few grains into a full trip.
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bodhisatta
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19053270 - 10/29/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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For every 3 grams of grain, would you expect to get 30 grams of wet shrooms?
Your getting confused with mass and density. 3grams of grains wouldn't produce 30 grams of wet shrooms for sure, but 1 grain might weigh 1g make a mushroom that's 3g wet but looks a hell of a lot bigger than the single grain.
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barong
Nada
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19053989 - 10/29/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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So the question remains. Where's the clarification on "TEN TIMES" a single grain? Whether by volume or by weight, it's a ridiculous statement
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19057234 - 10/30/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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First you play as if a very general statement about grain nutrients in agar is saying something entirely different about malt,
and now that little statement is "redefining science"? Can I not say something in an unscientific fashion without some anal-retentive person pretending that I'm trying to pass it off as a scientific certitude?
For starters, I did not say the grain is alone. You assumed my statement literally means that you can accomplish such a grow on nothing but a single grain or by proportion. That sure would be an easy thing to fail, yes?
Why didn't you think I said a single grain can physically support a mushroom ten times its size? Because, well, that's mainly what I meant.
Even further: Many of the fruits I grow recently grow from absolutely nothing except their own network on the side of plastic. As long as they can bring what they need from anywhere, typically less than 5 inches, fruits can from anyhow.
It's quite clear that I wasn't making a yield claim of some sort. I do talk about yield ratios and that statement not what it looks like. I'm always honest about my results, why would I lie?
But to make a bit of a point (and oh how I do love it when detractors inadvertently set me up for one) lets indeed approach the question mathematically as you say, and see how unduly your incredulousness is:
I'm sure you understand how B.E. is calculated?
Since I grow straight-grain my isolate cultures easily reach 300%+.
The grain petris in this thread have around 22g of rice in each. Solid isolates give me up to 7-8 grams from these little cakes, a BE of 320-370%
Since mushrooms are ±90% water, and 1mL (1 cubic cm) water weights 1g, it's adequate to say that a 10g mushroom contains 9mL water and will be over 9 cubic centimeters.
With a BE of 350% from straight grains via bottom-watering, by proportion 10g of rice can grow 35 fresh grams of mushrooms, ~35 cubic centimeters.
This is what 10g of rice looks like:
 
This photo is the closest I have to 35g fresh:
About 3 times the volume, and even looks like more.
So even if I were saying your spin on my statements, at worst I would be exaggerating some. At best you would be focusing on a trivial point, removed of its meaningful context, in an unsuited light.
Besides, you may not fully understand science in this regard: Science doesn't "disprove" anything, it only succeeds or does not succeed in proving a hypothesis. Edgy scientificky-advocate-type people just think science disproves things they don't believe in.
I have no doubt in your ability to "disprove" something of that sort - all you have to do is fail the grow; anyone can do that and think he/she has "disproved" something, especially if what they think they disproved wasn't even the real hypothesis so-to-speak.
What counts is how far one can succeed! With ideal process and great culturing, which is what this thread is about, the wonderful results I actually do lay claim to are not difficult to reach!
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, [Re: Violet] 2
#19057440 - 10/30/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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i think they miss the larger point violet,
and, mainly seem to parse statements to be annoying on details.
i find it odd, how the bucketeers,
only apply scientific reasoning to grain grows.
im not sure i would go for 10-1 ratio, but,
i know from experience, the sub weight ratio from bulks , is off the charts lame ,
compared to grains.
of course, parsing words,
makes peeps overlook that point.
most of the bulkers, dont do bulks because they love feces.
they do bulks because they dont have skills for grains,
and alot of em, havent done grains to scale, so they really dont know any better.
when someone shows decisively, that grains yield more,
bucketeers are left with the choice of limited teks,
or actually cleaning their labs and upping the skill.
( or, be outdated)
so,the rational response?
parse words, attack threads on minor points.
to admit grains have advantage, when used with skill,
is NOT an option, for some of them.
1-1 or 1000-1 , minor point.
big point is this
"grains kick ass 100% of the time."
buckeeters, would never guess on their ratio, as no matter what it was, it would invite the obvious comparisons.
peeps out front , do things all the time,
that cause great debate on the most minor of details.
after while , the most geeky scientists , actually measure such stuff.
by then, no one cares, cuz , it either performs, or it doesnt.
i suppose ,
some peeps need a data sheet, and some dont ,to see the obvious.
Edited by anne halonium (10/30/13 01:02 PM)
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jpack666
Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19075474 - 11/02/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi violet, been reading your post after seeing the link in mine about seringe vs print if transfering to agar. Nice tek!
But as I was reading it, I kept asking myself what experiences led you to get involved in these extra steps... I suppose being fed up of contaminants in agar from unclean prints?
Maybe something else....
If I buy a print online, is it gona require isolating the culture from the contams (in petri dish) with a couple of petri transfers?
Or is this more of an issue when we make our own prints because we don't use the same environment or have te same goals or budget as these online suppliers?
So if prints are not sterile, does it mean you are garanteed not to have a pure culture on your first agar plate?
How many isolations/transfers do people usually go through to get pure culture? (Not lab conditions, more like home project conditions with glove box)
--------------------
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: jpack666]
#19075646 - 11/02/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpack666 said:
as I was reading it, I kept asking myself what experiences led you to get involved in these extra steps... I suppose being fed up of contaminants in agar from unclean prints?
What extra steps?
I'm sure you'll understand a bit better once you have some grows under your belt. These aren't extra steps at all - in fact some of them skip several steps from other grow procedures.
Taking a clone is only possible after a fruiting grow begins pinning. This technique allows one to get to the clone point with a single dish and makes the sterile work of taking a clone far easier. It skips all the steps of a full grow-out and eliminates cultural hyper-expansion, leaving the culture far more young than it would otherwise.
In fact the whole tek is about skipped steps and shortcuts.
No petris regularly ordered online, no parafilm clingwrap or bags, no extra materials for agar, no careful pour timing or procedure, few transfer tediums, nearly no isolation from contaminants, no dud cultures, no large grows of chance with multi-spore, no fruiting chamber, no automation... all the while producing a bonus yield and resulting in young, strong, ideal cultures!
Quote:
jpack666 said:
If I buy a print online, is it gona require isolating the culture from the contams (in petri dish) with a couple of petri transfers?
Hopefully you'll have bought from a place with good clean standards for their product. You are quite unlikely to have contaminations from such. Wild-card vendors or trades from growers of questionable quality might cause some real clean-up work though, or even total failure...
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Or is this more of an issue when we make our own prints because we don't use the same environment or have te same goals or budget as these online suppliers?
If you take a print from a mushroom grown in gnarly environs there is a variable chance of issues. If you take them from sterile invitro, you will have NO issues, as long as your clean tech is good.
Quote:
jpack666 said:
So if prints are not sterile, does it mean you are guaranteed not to have a pure culture on your first agar plate?
Depending on the environment, and how soon the cap was picked, and how clean of a printing method was used, it's possible either to require lots of transfers or to have a totally clean dish right-off. When it's so easy to take invitro prints I don't see a point in gambling.
Quote:
jpack666 said:
How many isolations/transfers do people usually go through to get pure culture? (Not lab conditions, more like home project conditions with glove box)
This is kindof like asking how many beans are in the jar.
If the contaminant isn't wide-spread, and the transfer is done well, it may only take that one transfer or one more. This is usually my experience. Perhaps someone only semi-experienced with still-air box work with a very contaminated petri could end up needing lots of plates... poor souls.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19140896 - 11/15/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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May it suffice to say that it's best to transfer pins as early as possible into maturity.
Some sterile pins transferred quite late:
At a certain point they may even continue to mature and open caps. We definitely don't want that for a clone dish.
These dishes were all started with small pins:
Growth is much more ideal; these cultures are and will continue to be more healthy and vigorous.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (11/15/13 01:13 PM)
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twistedty
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19140939 - 11/15/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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you freeze grain water?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: twistedty]
#19141848 - 11/15/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Awesome post Violet! just bookmarked it as well as ur grain prep. gotta try this, cause I hate throwing away plastic petris, and I had no idea agar could be done so well with the PP5's.
1. if u do get a contam, do u just pc the plastic jar before using it again?
2. going along with twisted's Q above, u freeze the grain water for later use, then when u r ready, take it out, defrost, and then.....add agar and pour then PC? I got lost a bit on the initial post about ur media prep I guess. U employ a no pour style, right?
3. the PP5's of agar, they are not completely sealed in PC? just a tiny twist less that tight?
4. I know it was asked before above, but to clarify, when fruiting the grain containers, the FAE is provided by the loosening the lid after 100%?
5. And ur idea behind it (one of ur many ideas in the post) was that this container of fruits, with just a loosened lid, would be a much better place to take pins from to clone because of the relatively low chance of con tams entering fruiting area vs. SGFC, Mono spawned in open air, etc. correct?
Sorry for all the Q's there are so many good ideas here! gotta try this, but gotta come correct!
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: blindingleaf]
#19144469 - 11/16/13 07:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said:
1. if u do get a contam, do u just pc the plastic jar before using it again?
Personally I don't. Kindof a waste of a PC run. I can understand why others might do this, but I already have a great contam control due to my tek etc., and it could only do any good with mold contams anyway which I almost never see.
I just dump out the contam'd container in an appropriate place outside, and bring it right back in to the sink to be washed out.
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
2. going along with twisted's Q above, u freeze the grain water for later use, then when u r ready, take it out, defrost, and then.....add agar and pour then PC?
I freeze it when it will be used MUCH later, like the pulpy stuff I have for future agar grows (not culturing).
Usually the grainwater for agar dishes doesn't get frozen as I'll go thru it in a week or so; fridged rather.
You can add agar-agar to the grainwater then distribute, but you have to make sure the agar mix is even before every pour, as it will settle especially if the liquid is cold.
Different strokes for different folks, but I just weigh out around .5g agar-agar per container with 20-25mL grainwater already loaded in them. This ensures the agar is distributed evenly, avoiding leaving some of them too soft and others too hard.
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
3. the PP5's of agar, they are not completely sealed in PC? just a tiny twist less that tight?
That's right! Although a 'tiny' twist may be too little depending on how tiny you mean. 1 inch turn is great. Between 1/2" and 2" is the loose range without falling off.
The containers all say "UNSCREW LID BEFORE MICROWAVING" – that's pretty much exactly what we're doing here, so it could be said it's simply following the container's directions!
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
4. I know it was asked before above, but to clarify, when fruiting the grain containers, the FAE is provided by the loosening the lid after 100%?
Yes, when invitro fruiting grain containers, as shown in this thread
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
5. And ur idea behind it (one of ur many ideas in the post) was that this container of fruits, with just a loosened lid, would be a much better place to take pins from to clone because of the relatively low chance of con tams entering fruiting area vs. SGFC, Mono spawned in open air, etc. correct?
Yes correct. Not just a "low" chance of contams, but nearly NO chance. I ended up taking at least 24 pins in this last culturing round and had not a single contaminant.
Not only does it have a great sterile success chance, but doesn't require splitting and/or cutting a mature mushroom for a tissue sample, ending up with a clean and vigorous culture with less work and expansion, needing only sterilized tweezers to pluck and drop a pin.
All of my cultures have been isolated with just 2-4 transfers!
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
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• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19145797 - 11/16/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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awesome! thx for the articulate response! I love this idea, super creative thinking outside the box. Hopefully thread keeps going, cause I wanna try this and post pics after my current project! do u PC ur tweezers or just flame?
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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dr.alkaline
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: blindingleaf]
#19152112 - 11/17/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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For a 30oz twist top container (Ziplock twist-n-loc brand medium) filled 1/4 way up with grains, about how much water do you recommend adding as "bottom water". I know you mentioned adding more bottom water after the first flush, but is this done in between each and every flush?
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: dr.alkaline]
#19153146 - 11/18/13 08:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Doesn't take much, we can only add a bit of water at a time. 1/2 inch to 1 inch is fine, no more than halfway up the cake is my suggestion
Not only is it done for every flush, but full-fruiting genetics will need it at least 2 times per flush to grow what they're capable of!
In fact certain grains don't hold enough water for what they could put out in the first flush. With some grains (particularly RGS) I get 2nd to 3rd flushes the same size as the 1st since the water starts flowing after the 1st flush. Rice seems to hold more water and ends up calling for less bottom-water. So it all depends on the status of each cake.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Mosey3012
Registered: 12/12/12
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19153870 - 11/18/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well so far I've had 0 luck with using the RGS soak water mixed with agar. As instructed I've added .5g agar per 25ml "soak water" and PC'd like I would my normal (MEA) agar recipe. As a test I've tried a few different things, the final test will be a fully colonized grain plucked from a jar and placed on it prior to a G2G.
I've attempted 2 separate spore germination's (1 by simply scraping spores from the print to fall onto the agar, another using an inoculation loop which I would dip into the agar prior to rubbing it on the print then swooshing it around on the agar itself) - 2 weeks have passed and nothing (those same spores have germinated on rye berries already)...
I've also attempted 3 separate clones along side my regular agar recipe and none of those piece have done anything other then sit there while my regular agar (MEA) recipe has shown signs of regrowth.
Not sure y this would be, made quite a few of these plates whenever I read this tek so perhaps the mixture I used was 2 rich in nutrients or something? As stated above my final test with this particular mixture will be to see if a fully colonized grain will continue its growth out onto the media. Will be reporting back then.
Plan on trying the rice water next and another version of my malt mixture as it seems that not matter what I do with my current mixtures spores just wont germinate to save my life. Im assuming this means the mixture is 2 rich for the spores...
Note- the MEA recipe im using is (6g of malt and 5g of agar to 340mL water) - would that create a mixture 2 rich for spores?
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"Each of these lives is the right one! Every path is the right path. Everything could have been anything else and it would have just as much meaning"
  
"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost"
Edited by Mosey3012 (11/18/13 12:32 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Mosey3012]
#19154688 - 11/18/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's quite strange. Haven't heard of that happening before.
The cause is surely not "too much nutrition", I've grown full flushes on much greater concentrations of grain nutrient suspensions.
When you say "soak water", if you mean that the solution you're using is just water that grains were literally soaked in, then it's hardly grainwater at all. It takes a boiling prep to really get grainmatter suspended in the water.
One thing is certain: Grainwater agar works. Your problem isn't due to the grains themselves. Maybe a fungicidal seed coating, in which case food-grade rice will work for you as well as untreated seed. Maybe it's something else...
Keep trying stuff! Isolate your variables. For instance, if myc grows on the whole prepared sterile grains but not grainwater agar from those very grains, your problem is something you're adding to the grainwater after prep, or the likes.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19154749 - 11/18/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
STERILE SPORES
Considered an oxymoron by most that I've seen on these forums. It's often said that "No spore print is sterile, since fruits do not grow in sterile conditions." These ones do.
Sterile spores will not grow. I think you meant to say 'clean spore print' or something similar, but not sterile. The term sterile spores is only an oxymoron if you expect them to grow.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
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"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19155025 - 11/18/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Um,
that was already brought up...
Quote:
Mush4Brains said:
If spore prints were sterile nothing would grow from them.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
In this context, "sterile" means does not contain anything but the desired spores.
I say "sterile spores" in the same way that we do "sterile work" despite that we are actually breaking sterility by inoculating the target organism.
If we did "sterile work" and "kept our jars sterile" as strictly as you imply "sterility" to mean there, we'd never grow anything in our jars either...
But perhaps it would be good to change the headline to "sterile spore printing" to stop drawing posts for such a thing
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19155230 - 11/18/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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After reading this thread, there is a huge amount of
useful and mind-expanding information, coupled with a
ton of shit, and even detrimental information.
As a whole, I'd say the good outweigh the bad.
I will NOT go deeper into this statement,
I do not plan on starting an argument on this thread, though
I feel I am able to voice this simple opinion.
My second opinion, Is that anne halonium and violet..
are clearly the same person, or have a seriously
close relationship, even cultish.
Adios
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Mosey3012
Registered: 12/12/12
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19155311 - 11/18/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The soak water im referring to was the left over water from my tote after "flash hydrating" the seeds as you described doing before changing the tek up into parts whenever you wrote out these newer ones you just did. The exact same redish water stuff u have pictured right below "grainwater agar" in this tek to the right. I simply jarred that up after the grains were removed then a few days later added .5g agar to every 25mL plate I planned on using. Heated it up a bit on the stove and poured them, then into the PC as usual. I totally get what you're saying though, thus my posting about it. Was hoping to see where in the process I goofed.
EDIT: Went ahead and moved off topic info onto correct thread
--------------------
"Each of these lives is the right one! Every path is the right path. Everything could have been anything else and it would have just as much meaning"
"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost"
Edited by Mosey3012 (11/18/13 05:01 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: JMcDoogle] 1
#19156216 - 11/18/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
even cultish.
glad to see ya on board " J",
even my detractors are a cult.
good teks inspire the grow.
violet has some good teks.
enjoy them or be happy with thy own.
we dont follow people, we follow teks and education.
good job violet.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spore Printing! [Re: Violet]
#19157784 - 11/19/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wtf jmc? A "ton" of "shit" and "detrimental" information? I notice you first cop-out of discussion entirely without pointing out what that is. You say yourself you're about entirely new to this, only reading things on the board and starting to grow with first pins, yet feel yourself fit to judge?
Find a single bit of info that's "shit" or "bad", go on and find it, and we'll point you to the many places where it is an established known.
Go on, find all that horrible and wrong stuff that RR and these other peeps must have missed.
However, far be it from me to deny strangers the right to type their 2¢ wherever they want on the internet.
Your statements about me and Anne are ridiculous and behind the curve:
Quote:
FooMan said:
FYI- anne and Violet aren't the same person. I've checked and there is no doubt that they are 2 different people in two very different locations. You may not agree with their methods, but please don't falsely accuse them of being puppets of each other.
Aaaaaaanyways.....
Weeks later, I'm still getting 4th-5th flushes from bottom-watered multispore rice pucks, made mainly for the selection of pins for culture isolation
     
I have pretty small 'needs' as far as fruits are concerned, so honestly this culturing alone has had more accidental grow power than I'd expect PFtek to put out on purpose, and with the ease of neglect tek, all the while offering up opportunity for clear visual of ideal genetics.
I'm starting to test some of the isolated clone cultures, and it's looking great...!
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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bowserk
Strangler
Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 82
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19158188 - 11/19/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thank you for this, this is a lot of great info.
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Trade List
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
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Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bowserk]
#19158359 - 11/19/13 05:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey now, I started off with a compliment!
Tons of good info here!
Keep up the work!
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spore Printing! [Re: Violet]
#19159311 - 11/19/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are fast becoming my favorite poster! Keeping this thread marked!
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spore Printing! [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19159724 - 11/19/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like glass and the use of sfd for sterile fae, I spelled it out here 10 months ago here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17459279/page/2
I must say it's a fine write-up 
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
Edited by WillSolvem (11/26/13 05:33 AM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19161419 - 11/19/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
First you play as if a very general statement about grain nutrients in agar is saying something entirely different about malt,
and now that little statement is "redefining science"? Can I not say something in an unscientific fashion without some anal-retentive person pretending that I'm trying to pass it off as a scientific certitude?
For starters, I did not say the grain is alone. You assumed my statement literally means that you can accomplish such a grow on nothing but a single grain or by proportion. That sure would be an easy thing to fail, yes?
Why didn't you think I said a single grain can physically support a mushroom ten times its size? Because, well, that's mainly what I meant.
Even further: Many of the fruits I grow recently grow from absolutely nothing except their own network on the side of plastic. As long as they can bring what they need from anywhere, typically less than 5 inches, fruits can from anyhow.
It's quite clear that I wasn't making a yield claim of some sort. I do talk about yield ratios and that statement not what it looks like. I'm always honest about my results, why would I lie?
But to make a bit of a point (and oh how I do love it when detractors inadvertently set me up for one) lets indeed approach the question mathematically as you say, and see how unduly your incredulousness is:
I'm sure you understand how B.E. is calculated?
Since I grow straight-grain my isolate cultures easily reach 300%+.
The grain petris in this thread have around 22g of rice in each. Solid isolates give me up to 7-8 grams from these little cakes, a BE of 320-370%
Since mushrooms are ±90% water, and 1mL (1 cubic cm) water weights 1g, it's adequate to say that a 10g mushroom contains 9mL water and will be over 9 cubic centimeters.
With a BE of 350% from straight grains via bottom-watering, by proportion 10g of rice can grow 35 fresh grams of mushrooms, ~35 cubic centimeters.
This is what 10g of rice looks like:
This photo is the closest I have to 35g fresh:
About 3 times the volume, and even looks like more.
So even if I were saying your spin on my statements, at worst I would be exaggerating some. At best you would be focusing on a trivial point, removed of its meaningful context, in an unsuited light.
Besides, you may not fully understand science in this regard: Science doesn't "disprove" anything, it only succeeds or does not succeed in proving a hypothesis. Edgy scientificky-advocate-type people just think science disproves things they don't believe in.
I have no doubt in your ability to "disprove" something of that sort - all you have to do is fail the grow; anyone can do that and think he/she has "disproved" something, especially if what they think they disproved wasn't even the real hypothesis so-to-speak.
What counts is how far one can succeed! With ideal process and great culturing, which is what this thread is about, the wonderful results I actually do lay claim to are not difficult to reach!
 OWNED
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 666
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19163435 - 11/20/13 03:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
After reading this thread, there is a huge amount of
useful and mind-expanding information, coupled with a
ton of shit, and even detrimental information.
And that's just the opening post !
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: barong]
#19163853 - 11/20/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Enough of the bullshitting already. You may want it to be true really bad, especially after being told off, but it's simply not.
Seriously. All this talk about "bad info", from newbs and nobodys that don't want to actually point any of it out, is entirely contrived. Just wanna throw sticks and run off pretending a jeered insult is true, like ignorant little children.
If there really were any such stuff, do you not think someone could point it out? Do you not thing RR and these other people would have called it?
Your pathetic failed attempts with the "malt" and the "x10" were all you could dig up, troll. Give it up.
Don't waste your time posting more nonsense bullshit or spin. Don't post again unless you have something real, which you won't; everything in this thread is clearly an established known. The novelty is in the logical arrangement of material and procedure per ends. Set out to prove me wrong, and you're setting out to prove most of mycology wrong. Good luck with that.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (11/20/13 07:39 AM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19163867 - 11/20/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Other people have called it plenty of times,
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References. I even
think I saw a RR example of your ignorance once.
Dont act like you dont know.
I let it go, I left you with a " theres
plenty of good information, and thank you."
You're the one diggin this back up.
Drama-Queen.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19163900 - 11/20/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium]
#19163913 - 11/20/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References.
DQ#2
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19163955 - 11/20/13 08:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i know, even you had to laugh when ya thought about it.
fact is, you and frank know nothing about violets teks.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19163966 - 11/20/13 08:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Dont act like you dont know.
There you go again avoiding pointing out the so-called "bad info" here, instead you're pretending it's somehow obvious and that your statements are warranted;
and if the point is that I'm wrong about something why would you assume I must know and am acting a farce?
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
I let it go, I left you with a " theres
plenty of good information, and "thank you."
You also trashed it first, remember, saying my thread had a ton of shit and even detrimental info, then "let it go" without even pointing to any of what that was. As if you would know anyways.
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
You're the one diggin this back up.
Drama-Queen.
Child, YOU started this in my thread. YOU perpetuated it right there.
If anything, my statement was clearly to that troll, who actually was "diggin it up" btw, so you're being the drama queen.
Just shut up about personal bullshit for everyone's sakes.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Reply to discuss mushrooms, but shut the hell up about each other. I feel like a goddamn hall monitor at jr high school and it pisses me off.
RR
Anne, plz stop
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19163985 - 11/20/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh boy does the banality flow through you.
Child, hah.
Good one!
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19163995 - 11/20/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just point out this thread's so-called "bad info" already. Quit beating around the bush and trying to troll personally. If you're so smart, and have this all figured out, show it. Prove that your words aren't empty bs. I'll easily show where you're wrong. Go on, address the facts.
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19164003 - 11/20/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're derailing your own thread.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19164130 - 11/20/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
You're derailing your own thread.
your simply a graffti artist,
when ya cant grow, crash a growers thread.
and then claim " its all their fault"
mods, remove this troll.
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium]
#19164232 - 11/20/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
You're derailing your own thread.
your simply a graffti artist,
when ya cant grow, crash a growers thread.
and then claim " its all their fault"
mods, remove this troll.
Who says I cant grow? I do just fine Anne.
I think this thread is a wonderful floodgate of information...
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19164447 - 11/20/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Other people have called it plenty of times,
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References. I even
think I saw a RR example of your ignorance once.
Dont act like you dont know.
I let it go, I left you with a " theres
plenty of good information, and thank you."
You're the one diggin this back up.
Drama-Queen.
This is the most off topic delerious post of the week, congratulations. You just put yourself right on anne's level too
Serisouly kid. I think anne is a troll half the time and I'm not a huge fan of either of their works presented as is. I can still see and take value from Violets work. You're just as big of a troll coming here and posting this garbage. Just walk on by like any right minded person. If you were really smart you would know what's right and wrong and give advise based on your experience and welcome discussion. Right now you're acting like one of those kids in college ready to vote for the first time regurgitating all the anne rhetoric while failing to make your own view points.
There's plenty of good info here. Take it for what it's worth and don't recommend it to people if you don't like it. That simple. Just like polyfil or tyvek or SFD works in a grain lid PP jars can work for agar. Use which one is your cup of tea and be a man.
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle 
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19164521 - 11/20/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Other people have called it plenty of times,
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References. I even
think I saw a RR example of your ignorance once.
Dont act like you dont know.
I let it go, I left you with a " theres
plenty of good information, and thank you."
You're the one diggin this back up.
Drama-Queen.
This is the most off topic delerious post of the week, congratulations. You just put yourself right on anne's level too
Serisouly kid. I think anne is a troll half the time and I'm not a huge fan of either of their works presented as is. I can still see and take value from Violets work. You're just as big of a troll coming here and posting this garbage. Just walk on by like any right minded person. If you were really smart you would know what's right and wrong and give advise based on your experience and welcome discussion. Right now you're acting like one of those kids in college ready to vote for the first time regurgitating all the anne rhetoric while failing to make your own view points.
There's plenty of good info here. Take it for what it's worth and don't recommend it to people if you don't like it. That simple. Just like polyfil or tyvek or SFD works in a grain lid PP jars can work for agar. Use which one is your cup of tea and be a man.
hi violet ....anne......
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   It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: cronicr]
#19164534 - 11/20/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nah I use glass jars and glass petri's I guess I would have to be the anti-anne
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19164566 - 11/20/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i use anything i can get my hands on , a real myc whore! another nice write up witha bunch of flak behind it but the point is what matters
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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19164575 - 11/20/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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its ok bod, youll catch up.
we all started with glass.
i will say, bod and cronic,
JM makes you guys look like polite pros.
keep up the good work.
im pleased at your progress!
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: anne halonium] 1
#19164627 - 11/20/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There's the atheist's who want to burn the bible and then there's the atheist's who can read it and learn while not being tainted.
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barong
Nada
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 666
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19164846 - 11/20/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Enough of the bullshitting already.
Is that a promise?
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19165803 - 11/20/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Other people have called it plenty of times,
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References. I even
think I saw a RR example of your ignorance once.
Dont act like you dont know.
I let it go, I left you with a " theres
plenty of good information, and thank you."
You're the one diggin this back up.
Drama-Queen.
This is the most off topic delerious post of the week, congratulations. You just put yourself right on anne's level too
Serisouly kid. I think anne is a troll half the time and I'm not a huge fan of either of their works presented as is. I can still see and take value from Violets work. You're just as big of a troll coming here and posting this garbage. Just walk on by like any right minded person. If you were really smart you would know what's right and wrong and give advise based on your experience and welcome discussion. Right now you're acting like one of those kids in college ready to vote for the first time regurgitating all the anne rhetoric while failing to make your own view points.
There's plenty of good info here. Take it for what it's worth and don't recommend it to people if you don't like it. That simple. Just like polyfil or tyvek or SFD works in a grain lid PP jars can work for agar. Use which one is your cup of tea and be a man.
Why dont you go ahead and read the thread, I've said numerous
times that I find a plethora of great information from violets
work and a lot of mind expanding ideas and things that just click.
Her work makes me think outside the box, and I enjoy that on a very
intimate level.
That doesent take away from the other statements i've made.
I've got nothing against you, but that post was downright
arrogant and uneducated.
I may be on " anne's level " but who gives you the right
to call me a kid? Do ya got a little man complex or something?
Are you trying to be a bully?
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19175663 - 11/22/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey Violet, I see you going back and forth between the agar petri and the grain petri, but can you isolate and transfer straight grain petri to grain petri. Can you go from fruit to grain petri? Can you go from spore to grain petri?
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 41
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat] 1
#19176823 - 11/22/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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JMcDoogle,
I've only been on this forum for a week or so.... but I've spent about 40 hours reading...basically, my head is ready to explode and different teks are smushed together in my brain.....
The value of this site is information for noobs like myself. I realize different people have different ways of getting from point A to Z.... I'm in the middle of trying to process all of this information to determine where I wish to start.
I say all of this to point out that it's not only useless for you to say "some things are bad info", but it's also harmful. As a newbie, I value information from all sources that have experience, which clearly you and Violet both do. I don't mind that the two of you don't agree as the which method is "best".... but when someone says "there is some bad info" and then doesn't begin a specific debate, it's does nothing but cloud the ENTIRE process for someone like me. So, as a noob, I can't determine which parts of the info you think are good and which you feel are bad. Now I have to just either ignore you totally or throw out the baby with the bath water.
I suggest that it might be easier in the future to simply post what you agree with specifically if you don't wish to point out the things you disagree with. At least then I can use your opinion while reading the thread.
Thanks again to all for the info.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19176850 - 11/22/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BigGreenMat said:
Hey Violet, I see you going back and forth between the agar petri and the grain petri, but can you isolate and transfer straight grain petri to grain petri. Can you go from fruit to grain petri? Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Can you go from fruit to grain petri?
Yes you can, but I wouldn't recommend it. After a clone you want to isolate the strongest growth from that clone and this is possible on the 2D of straight agar.
Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Yes you definitely can, but mostly I wouldn't suggest it, except a certain way.
If you have a clean print, and are using SAB (Not laminar airflow for this one), you can drop spores onto the middle area of the grains. Hopefully the top of the grains will be adequate, which it will be if containers are air-tight and the ratio of grain to air not too shallow.
Better for this would be spore solution, which is the certain way I mentioned. Grain petris are the perfect and ideal starting medium for spore solution when the intent is not to do a full-size multispore grow.
Just 2-3 drops is perfect, I suggest only in the middle just like agar wedge transfer. In this scenario the spore solution has its best chance of germ without bacteria, just the same as with jars, and also the advantage of uni-centric outward growth like on agar - in fact it's the only easy/assured way of getting such growth from spores on agar.
The big question is your first: Can you isolate and transfer grain petri to grain petri?
Firstly, yes you definitely can easily and excellently transfer from grain petris to others. Tweezers are the perfect tool in general, and getting to use them for mycology work instead of scalpel-juggling/scraping is absolutely heaven.
With tweezers, a single tiny grain petri is hand-transferred to dozens of containers in minutes with great ease.
Isolation... This I'm not entirely sure about, but my guess is No. The mycelium within the grains grows 3D and we do not see "sectoring" amongst grains with this growth. Though it's likely it would eventually happen with transfers, it would not be possible or easy to isolate genetics in this fashion. That's much more effective and assured on agar.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19177858 - 11/23/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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pay no attention to JM,
lemme spell it out for ya so theres zero doubt.
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References.
now heres a quote from his trusty master.........
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
You don't even have to be sterile with a colonized grain. I used to make isolates from grains that fell to the floor of my SAB during G2G. Just pick it up when you are done with your work and place it on a clean dish
^sounds more crusty , than trusty to me.
its no surprise ,
that these posers defame anything that doesnt involve turds in buckets.
they are literally unable to master sterile skills beyond that.
JM pops up on threads, to misinform and slander.
and, has nothing to offer a serious grower.
if anything JM, frank is a reference for your grow skill, and his own.
now back to Vtek.........the grow tek so cool,
that it drives peeps that lack grow skill , insane.
Edited by anne halonium (11/23/13 07:21 AM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar
Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 4 years, 8 days
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, [Re: anne halonium]
#19177895 - 11/23/13 07:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
pay no attention to JM,
lemme spell it out for ya so theres zero doubt.
Quote:
JMcDoogle said:
Frank Horrigan - Plenty of References.
now heres a quote from his trusty master.........
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
You don't even have to be sterile with a colonized grain. I used to make isolates from grains that fell to the floor of my SAB during G2G. Just pick it up when you are done with your work and place it on a clean dish
^sounds more crusty , than trusty to me.
its no surprise ,
that these posers defame anything that doesnt involve turds in buckets.
they are literally unable to master sterile skills beyond that.
JM pops up on threads, to misinform and slander.
and, has nothing to offer a serious grower.
if anything JM, frank is a reference for your grow skill, and his own.
now back to Vtek.........the grow tek so cool,
that it drives peeps that lack grow skill , insane.
I find this insulting - You're directly aiming insults at my
character and I will not have that.
How you like me now.
Oh wait, I dont care what you say Anne, nor does half of the people who
come across your posts.
Would you like to know why?
You're bat-shit crazy, thats why.
Thanks.
This tek is a wonderful beginning, I like where its headed.
Could use some finer-tuning but hell, we all start somewhere.
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19177906 - 11/23/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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glad ya quoted it,
i would have gladly said it 2 x............
now, on with the show
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19179058 - 11/23/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Quote:
BigGreenMat said:
Hey Violet, I see you going back and forth between the agar petri and the grain petri, but can you isolate and transfer straight grain petri to grain petri. Can you go from fruit to grain petri? Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Can you go from fruit to grain petri?
Yes you can, but I wouldn't recommend it. After a clone you want to isolate the strongest growth from that clone and this is possible on the 2D of straight agar.
Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Yes you definitely can, but mostly I wouldn't suggest it, except a certain way.
Just 2-3 drops is perfect, I suggest only in the middle just like agar wedge transfer. In this scenario the spore solution has its best chance of germ without bacteria, just the same as with jars, and also the advantage of uni-centric outward growth like on agar - in fact it's the only easy/assured way of getting such growth from spores on agar.
The big question is your first: Can you isolate and transfer grain petri to grain petri?
Firstly, yes you definitely can easily and excellently transfer from grain petris to others. Tweezers are the perfect tool in general, and getting to use them for mycology work instead of scalpel-juggling/scraping is absolutely heaven.
With tweezers, a single tiny grain petri is hand-transferred to dozens of containers in minutes with great ease.
Awesome thanks for the info.
Here is what I am thinking. I have a few different syringes with different varieties. I was thinking to make up a batch of your grain petris and inoculate them from 2 different syringes (I am thinking my Albino PE and Pan Cyan to try it out). Let the petris grow out then use them to transfer to either RGS or Brown Rice according to your V container tek, and then run them out from there to fruiting. After that I would then transfer a fruit to Agar for some isolation work. Does that sound like a reasonable use of your teks?
Thanks again for all your answers.
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 41
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19179174 - 11/23/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BigGreenMat said:
Quote:
Violet said:
Quote:
BigGreenMat said:
Hey Violet, I see you going back and forth between the agar petri and the grain petri, but can you isolate and transfer straight grain petri to grain petri. Can you go from fruit to grain petri? Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Can you go from fruit to grain petri?
Yes you can, but I wouldn't recommend it. After a clone you want to isolate the strongest growth from that clone and this is possible on the 2D of straight agar.
Can you go from spore to grain petri?
Yes you definitely can, but mostly I wouldn't suggest it, except a certain way.
Just 2-3 drops is perfect, I suggest only in the middle just like agar wedge transfer. In this scenario the spore solution has its best chance of germ without bacteria, just the same as with jars, and also the advantage of uni-centric outward growth like on agar - in fact it's the only easy/assured way of getting such growth from spores on agar.
The big question is your first: Can you isolate and transfer grain petri to grain petri?
Firstly, yes you definitely can easily and excellently transfer from grain petris to others. Tweezers are the perfect tool in general, and getting to use them for mycology work instead of scalpel-juggling/scraping is absolutely heaven.
With tweezers, a single tiny grain petri is hand-transferred to dozens of containers in minutes with great ease.
Awesome thanks for the info.
Here is what I am thinking. I have a few different syringes with different varieties. I was thinking to make up a batch of your grain petris and inoculate them from 2 different syringes (I am thinking my Albino PE and Pan Cyan to try it out). Let the petris grow out then use them to transfer to either RGS or Brown Rice according to your V container tek, and then run them out from there to fruiting. After that I would then transfer a fruit to Agar for some isolation work. Does that sound like a reasonable use of your teks?
Thanks again for all your answers.
I think she recommends going from spore syringe to thin RGS layer in container.... then take a strain using tweezers to agar.... transfer as need to get isolation, then agar wedge back to 1 cup RGS in container for colonization
Seems to prefer that over spore syringe to agar....... just from what I read of her tek.
Edited by MMagg (11/23/13 02:20 PM)
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19179221 - 11/23/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MMagg said:
I think she recommends going from spore syringe to thing grain layer in container.... then take a strain using tweezers to agar.... transfer as need to get isolation, then agar wedge back to grain container.
Seems to prefer that over spore syringe to agar....... just from what I read of her tek.
I see what you are suggesting, but without some sort of fruiting phase you can't choose good genetics. You could be isolating mycelium which will be poor fruiters and you would never even know. So from all my reading the flow always goes: Spore->Mycelium->Pin/Fruit->Agar for isolation.
Are you suggesting that I try to fruit or pin the initial rice petri and move to agar from that? I could see that being a possibility too.
Oh and welcome fellow neophyte MMagg
Edited by BigGreenMat (11/23/13 02:34 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19180095 - 11/23/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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To give you an idea of my experience with and feelings towards full-size grain cakes of multispore... Ugh.
Yeah typically I get 9-18 dry from them when (if) I follow through, at least that's not too bad. They're kindof annoying to harvest particularly having to clean off side/under-pins which is quite likely to happen. Mostly single fruits.
My last run if 24 "grain petris" with no duplicate genetics from one variety's multi-spore agar germination on 2 dishes, I only took about 12 total samples and several of those were multiples from single containers. Taking the best sectors and best dishes, they somewhat divided out to total 24 isolate cultures to test. Of those I'm likely to find that some aren't really heavy fruiters, some may be slow fruiting and end up not having enough flushes, some may yield well but still delay too long for flushes, some may have prolific but small fruits... Some marked from the same clone may also be duplicates...
So from 24 separate multi-spore inoculations, all with several spore flake germs of their own thus countless genetic mixes, I hope to get 1, maybe 3, really good isolates to put to a final race for time & yield & potency.
That is my opinion of the proportion of good genes from the wildcard of multispore.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19180140 - 11/23/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
My last run if 24 "grain petris" with no duplicate genetics from one variety's multi-spore agar germination on 2 dishes, I only took about 12 total samples and several of those were multiples from single containers. Taking the best sectors and best dishes, they somewhat divided out to total 24 isolate cultures to test. Of those I'm likely to find that some aren't really heavy fruiters, some may be slow fruiting and end up not having enough flushes, some may yield well but still delay too long for flushes, some may have prolific but small fruits... Some marked from the same clone may also be duplicates...
So from 24 separate multi-spore inoculations, all with several spore flake germs of their own thus countless genetic mixes, I hope to get 1, maybe 3, really good isolates to put to a final race for time & yield & potency.
That is my opinion of the proportion of good genes from the wildcard of multispore.
Hey violet! can u clarify for me this part? when u say u took 12 total samples, I assume u mean from the ms petri, correct? were these fruit samples or agar wedge samples? those 12 sample grew out, and then from there u transferred the 24 most rhyzo mycelium? and they ended up being isolates at that point by luck? or out of those 12 initial samples, 24 isolates were produced after numerous transfers? sorry if I misread and this is a dumb question.
Im confused and intrigued, because this is what I want to get into next, just got my PP5's.
--------------------
A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19180200 - 11/23/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I took 12 pins total (from maybe only 4-8 of the 24 containers) to 12 agar dishes, and from there took transfers from most of those dishes, which either right away or after 2-3 transfers went thru sectoring where I took the best growth. In this case I came out to 24 dishes of isolated genetics.
I'm pretty picky for strong white growth and favor thick ropey more than cottony, although sometimes a culture switches for various reasons.
That's quite a large culture round I did, but it's done in the hopes of assuredly ending up with having found some wonderful strains.
Transferring to another requires at least 2 dishes at the same time, a sending and at least one receiving.
For the beginner who hasn't amassed enough of a collection to be able to bounce from that many containers to just as many more, surely not as many cultures can come of a round. Over time compare the winning cultures of whatever size culturing round you can transfer containers for.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (11/23/13 11:26 PM)
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BigGreenMat
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19180840 - 11/23/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok, yeah I won't be doing anywhere near that volume. I was thinking of starting on the rice petri and going to agar after a fruit so I could pick something decent to start with. I can see why, at the volumes you talk about, you wouldn't bother even doing a multispore container. I guess I kind of just have to jump in and do it and then see how it pans out and hopefully get some good fruits to clone and isolate.
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Mosey3012
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19187294 - 11/25/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well out of all my plates 1 did turn out to show some growth, and in a surprisingly quick period once it started I can only assume. I feel like I check these just about daily but I must admit I must have been overlooking this plate... Plate marked 11-12-13, growth is about the size quarter. Definitely no sign of life within first 7 days after making clone xfer. Checked on it this morning and found this... So the grain water does work! Even just taking the left over soak water and throwing in .5 agar per 25ml
Close Up
Out Some
Unrelated to the topic but in relation to the the provided pictures... Notice how fluffy that has grown out? Is this normal for clones or in general to grow out that fluffy? I can only assume there's no visible ropeyness from any rizo growth because there's so many different sets of genetics growing out so close to each other? All of my plates seem to grow out this way. Now in these pics (surprisingly) you're able to see on the outter edge of the growing ring some sectoring occurring. I marked off what to my knowledge in the green would more then likely be tomentose growth then in blue where I'd likely get more ropeyness if making a transfer from there?
*Zoom in pic to see markings* (We can call left green sector A, Blue: B, and to the right green sector C)
I appreciate any feedback on that haha, I'd like to one day have some iso's under my belt!
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"Each of these lives is the right one! Every path is the right path. Everything could have been anything else and it would have just as much meaning"
"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost"
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WillSolvem
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Posts: 1,519
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Mosey3012]
#19187977 - 11/25/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm going to use SFD's for sterile fae, but you really sold me in the PP5 containers
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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WillSolvem
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Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19189117 - 11/25/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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So here's where I'm at so far:
Using "Friendly Felt" I made some filter discs
Then I abraded around the center so the RTV would adhere well, then drilled a 1/4" hole in the center
I double up the friendly felt, if you notice this stuff has a "rough" side and a "smooth" side. I apply a bead of RTV around the rim on the "smooth" side
And firmly apply to lid
Then lay a bead of RTV around the rim of the "rough" side of the disc
Then I drop another filter disc onto this one, "rough" side down so the "rough" sides of the two filter discs are facing each other and only the "smooth" side will be exposed when finished
Then press firmly, some RTV will push out of the sides, just run your finger around the discs to smooth out the excess
I stuck them in my super high tech anti-cat-curiosity-chamber for the night
I'll update tomorrow after I fill, sterilize, and inoculate. I'll keep posting as the isolates I obtain are expanded and fruited. Thank you Violet for the inspiration and beautiful write-up
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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MMagg
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19189617 - 11/25/13 11:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Will,
Just curious.... why did you choose to modify the lid when Violet repeatedly advises not to do so? I've got 20 containers cooling off for noc myself.... I didn't modify the lids...
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WillSolvem
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19190536 - 11/26/13 05:37 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MMagg said:
Will,
Just curious.... why did you choose to modify the lid when Violet repeatedly advises not to do so? I've got 20 containers cooling off for noc myself.... I didn't modify the lids...
That's how I have been doing this long before this Tek ever existed
Proof in pudding: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17459279/page/2
The following is the post I made briefly outlining the technique from the above link
Quote:
Check this out:
Pinning: ksss strain
I fill a jar about 1/4 the way with hpoo/strawn/grain/gypsum, and case with verm, sterilize and inoculate (spores will make it through the verm layer) and wait until colonization/consolidation/fruiting, take clones with a syringe through a hole drilled though the jar and sealed with rtv, use a large hole and a thick layer of rtv so you can move the needle around with confidence, open under your flow hood/SAB for a sterile mushroom for printing or further cloning
It can even be done using the PF tek..
 Quote:
--------------------
AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
Edited by WillSolvem (11/26/13 05:48 AM)
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MMagg
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19190992 - 11/26/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right, but those are glass jars, not the PP5 plastics.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19191006 - 11/26/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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part of the value of PP5 , is they can be stored and stacked discretely, and alot of peeps have collections of storage containers.
its a little stealthier than the stack of masons.
modified lids, sorta take away the stealth factor.
we never mod lids, as our experience shows,
they get plenty of FAE with loose lids.
some peeps , like to drill and modify and build.
i dont see any problem with that.
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MMagg
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
part of the value of PP5 , is they can be stored and stacked discretely, and alot of peeps have collections of storage containers.
its a little stealthier than the stack of masons.
modified lids, sorta take away the stealth factor.
we never mod lids, as our experience shows,
they get plenty of FAE with loose lids.
some peeps , like to drill and modify and build.
i dont see any problem with that.
Just curios that Violet said she modified the lids when she started, but said she wished she hadn't. Advised against it, but didn't give much reason other than it was not necessary..... as FAE occurs with a loose lid.
Normally, when someone goes out of their way to advise against something, there is a reason... I just wondered if that was the case here....
Edited by MMagg (11/26/13 12:04 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19191692 - 11/26/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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well, ya can do it, or not.
some peeps like to mod things.
technically i see no harm.
question is , why?
especially when ya have alot of em.
alot of the violet tek, is designed to avoid extra things.
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MMagg
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Registered: 11/19/13
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
well, ya can do it, or not.
some peeps like to mod things.
technically i see no harm.
question is , why?
especially when ya have alot of em.
alot of the violet tek, is designed to avoid extra things.
On a side note... why couldn't the Violet Tek be expanded to fill a mono tub? I mean, couldn't you spawn the grain in bags, then fill mono tub and just be using RGS? Would that not be as easy?
Don't get me wrong, i'm in the process of doing the violet tek right now, but some seem to thing small containers just isn't as good as big tubs...lol. Couldn't they modify it? If so, where would the pitfalls/areas of concern be?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19191863 - 11/26/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MMagg said:
Don't get me wrong, i'm in the process of doing the violet tek right now, but some seem to thing small containers just isn't as good as big tubs...lol. Couldn't they modify it? If so, where would the pitfalls/areas of concern be?
Uh oh, now you did it
Provided you are using clean spawn and pasteurized field capacity sub, there are no pitfalls, unless you consider a set and forget FC with consistent results a pitfall. I believe that the reason someone might consider the v tek over a mono is they might not be able to pull off a proper spawn run, in which case the v tek is a simpler way to get fruits with less steps. But IMO a spawn run is not difficult.
I am going to run my own v tek right away here just to compare the pros and cons of both methods.
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MMagg
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19191892 - 11/26/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
MMagg said:
Don't get me wrong, i'm in the process of doing the violet tek right now, but some seem to thing small containers just isn't as good as big tubs...lol. Couldn't they modify it? If so, where would the pitfalls/areas of concern be?
Uh oh, now you did it
Provided you are using clean spawn and pasteurized field capacity sub, there are no pitfalls, unless you consider a set and forget FC with consistent results a pitfall. I believe that the reason someone might consider the v tek over a mono is they might not be able to pull off a proper spawn run, in which case the v tek is a simpler way to get fruits with less steps. But IMO a spawn run is not difficult.
I am going to run my own v tek right away here just to compare the pros and cons of both methods.
No... I'm not talking about a traditional mono tub tek. I'm talking about the Violet tek with a much larger container.... a tub. It seems the Violet tek's advantage is 100% grain, which is 100% nutrition.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19191917 - 11/26/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I doubt you are gonna find a PC large enough to put a tub in? Unless you were going to break up and case the grain in the tub, at which point you might as well spawn it and get the extra water and nutes. Also if you used 5 quarts of grain for a mono and 5 quaets of grain for V tek, you still are using 5 quarts of grain
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MMagg
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19191937 - 11/26/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
I doubt you are gonna find a PC large enough to put a tub in? Unless you were going to break up and case the grain in the tub, at which point you might as well spawn it and get the extra water and nutes. Also if you used 5 quarts of grain for a mono and 5 quaets of grain for V tek, you still are using 5 quarts of grain
That's why I said to spawn the RGS fully in bags.... then put them fully colonized into one big mono tub. At that point, sterility wouldn't be such a concern... but obviously, I'd clean it as much as possible.
The absence of substrate in the Violet tek is credited with other benefits as well....
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19191961 - 11/26/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Credited by who? Based on what? I have yet to see a single side by side comparison using an isolate. Until that day comes (and it will soon) everything is simply speculation and rhetoric.
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MMagg
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19191970 - 11/26/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Credited by who? Based on what? I have yet to see a single side by side comparison using an isolate. Until that day comes (and it will soon) everything is simply speculation and rhetoric.
Goodness, dude... you're taking my question and trying to start a debate. And everyone I've spoken to who currently uses the Violet Tek has done PLENTY of other teks and seem to prefer it. I choose to believe they aren't all just morons.... But anyway... my question remains.....
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19192048 - 11/26/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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pasty doesnt care about a side by side experiment, if he did he could find out for 5$ in 3 weeks himself and prove his point.
he cant, and hes see where we are slowly.
if he did the experiment honest , and lost , he loses face.
if he cooks the experiment and wins, , someone else will exceed him, and he looks dum in a few months,
its not in his interest in the least to find out.
its just easier for a limited grower to look imperitive to ask for data. cheap and easy tactic to monkey wrench a tek ya lack the skills for yourself.
anyone not here more than 5 minits,
realizes data never sways the ignorant.
they just dismiss the data.
dragging bulks into this thread, is just adding troll fog
the whole idea is to avoid bulks, and capitolize on the BE of grains.
all peeps see is container or tub.
its shallow way to look at a grow.
imagine a v-tek pp5 , the size of tub.
considering multi flushes,
sub weight, energy costs, contam losses,
by all sane measures.
subs seem sorta ridiculously innefficient.
i think pasty has it in reverse,
bulks,
are for peeps that lack the skills for V tek.
truthfully , if i was a noob, and just wanted enuff for me and friends, and was generally low budget, and lacked science skills,
id absolutely do bulks.
however, if i was reasonably funded , had lab skills, and was interested in reliable production, over time, and strain selection and power, along with space and energy savings , and require big steady yeild no contest ,violet tek.
it all comes down to energy and supply, and time "in"
and surface area / yield " out"
the idea who has the bigger bucket " wins"
is a fantasy promoted by in experinced growers,
to distract from their skill levels and luck factor.
in the real world, winner has the biggest pile of most power,
the fastest, with least supply and attrition.
if big wins, i grew kiddie pools back in the 80s with bulk straw.
makes even biggest tubs look like shoe boxes.
i no longer do kiddie pools and tubs.
i do v tek,
v tekkers know its about all factors.
there are many of us now, and its for a reason.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/26/13 01:31 PM)
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 41
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
the whole idea is to avoid bulks, and capitolize on the BE of grains.
all peeps see is container or tub.
its shallow way to look at a grow.
imagine a v-tek pp5 , the size of tub.
considering multi flushes,
sub weight, energy costs, contam losses,
by all sane measures.
subs seem sorta ridiculously innefficient.
i think pasty has it in reverse,
bulks,
are for peeps that lack the skills for V tek.
truthfully , if i was a noob, and just wanted enuff for me and friends, and was generally low budget, and lacked science skills,
id absolutely do bulks.
however, if i was reasonably funded , had lab skills, and was interested in reliable production, over time, and strain selection and power, along with space and energy savings , and require big steady yeild no contest ,violet tek.
it all comes down to energy and supply, and time "in"
and surface area / yield " out"
the idea who has the bigger bucket " wins"
is a fantasy promoted by in experinced growers,
to distract from their skill levels and luck factor.
in the real world, winner has the biggest pile of most power,
the fastest, with least supply and attrition.
if big wins, i grew kiddie pools back in the 80s with bulk straw.
makes even biggest tubs look like shoe boxes.
i no longer do kiddie pools and tubs.
i do v tek,
v tekkers know its about all factors.
there are many of us now, and its for a reason.
I Don't disagree... just wondering if the same tek could be modified to go into a bigger container....like a tub.
Clearly, smaller containers are good if one gets tainted, you don't lose em all.... but maybe pouring an entire pint of 100% colonized grain into a large spawn bag.... shaking.... that would colonize quickly... then into a tub. Just wondering how that would work.....or where the negatives would be. It's still 100% RGS inside plastic.... just bigger plastic
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19192112 - 11/26/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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its the contam thing.............
any small containers, can be easily removed if contamed
we dont lose entire crops because of a bad spot.
you guys need to think this thru.
ya dont need a million containers
24 clone containers, done right,
will out run almost anything its
equal size.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/26/13 01:38 PM)
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
its the contam thing.............
any small containers, can be easily removed if contamed
we dont lose entire crops because of a bad spot.
Right, but once a bag full of RGS was 100% colonized, how much of a risk would it really be to load it into a mono tub? Isn't the big risk already passed?
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19192138 - 11/26/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MMagg said:
Quote:
anne halonium said:
its the contam thing.............
any small containers, can be easily removed if contamed
we dont lose entire crops because of a bad spot.
Right, but once a bag full of RGS was 100% colonized, how much of a risk would it really be to load it into a mono tub? Isn't the big risk already passed?
why bother?
the fetish should be in the total operations crop size.
i like ya MM.
dont let the bulkers convince ya the bigger the bucket the better.
thats just posing.
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 41
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
MMagg said:
Quote:
anne halonium said:
its the contam thing.............
any small containers, can be easily removed if contamed
we dont lose entire crops because of a bad spot.
Right, but once a bag full of RGS was 100% colonized, how much of a risk would it really be to load it into a mono tub? Isn't the big risk already passed?
why bother?
the fetish should be in the total operations crop size.
i like ya MM.
dont let the bulkers convince ya the bigger the bucket the better.
thats just posing.
I don't disagree that bucket size is akin to penis size.....
just that, for me, dealing with 6 pint jars, 12 bags, and 6 tubs may end up being easier than 108 containers.
Maybe it won't be... just wondering if there is any reason apart from contamination segmenting.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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from a purely technical stand point, yes ya can do it. we had some massive tray farms back in the early 90s like that.
thing is, its garden engineering.
if 100 containers is a little much, cycle 50 containers.
thats another advantage of v tek, cycling crops,
the second one pp5 goes down, another one in place.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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This isn't even in the right thread,
this is the CULTURE TECH thread and this is a VIOLET TEK conversation.
Please direct inquiries and discussion to their related threads.
But for the record, since it was asked here...
A giant tub of straight-grain would not be so easy to water. The individual cakes are surrounded with contact area with a small amount of water - a giant cake would have much less exposure area and require sitting in excess standing water to even get close to necessary hydration.
It would also involve breaking-up and "recovering" the original colony on the grains but within unsterile environs. This simply doesn't go as well.
Side-pins would become a problem where it otherwise is not. One large grain substrate would be extra likely to side-pin, with the problem being that the sides are isolated from most of the substrate. Yield would be pathetic, and the potential hardly realized. With many cakes, sides are always close by, and the whole container is full of sides, so side-pins become a more trivial matter.
The efficiency would also drop dramatically. It's common myco knowledge: the larger the sub, the lower the biological efficiency.
Plus when there's a contaminant it All goes in the dump, instead of just 1 container going and the others continuing on.
There are many many reasons to keep containers unbroken and individual instead of breaking and amassing them.
As for why I don't modify the lids... I had silicone/SFD fall off my lids several times AFTER containers were sterilized and inoculated. What a frustrating waste.
The ones that DIDN'T Fall off like that allowed moisture loss and the drying of the surface mycelium closest to the filter. As long as you're using filters as such, not only can you not stop it, but you're practically doing it on purpose. That might not happen or badly, but since it's not necessary to grow, why would you maim your containers for that reason?
The containers already have more than enough air, especially for Agar dishes so a filter could stop a container from being used for agar dishes.
Besides, it eliminates many of the multiple uses for these containers Besides the direct grow.
I use them for nearly Everything, including many uses that wouldn't be possible with ugly maim mods.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (11/26/13 02:34 PM)
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MMagg
Stranger
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19192359 - 11/26/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
This isn't even in the right thread,
this is the CULTURE TECH thread and this is a VIOLET TEK conversation.
Please direct inquiries and discussion to their related threads.
But for the record, since it was asked here...
A giant tub of straight-grain would not be so easy to water. The individual cakes are surrounded with contact area with a small amount of water - a giant cake would have much less exposure area and require sitting in excess standing water to even get close to necessary hydration.
It would also involve breaking-up and "recovering" the original colony on the grains but within unsterile environs. This simply doesn't go as well.
The efficiency would also drop dramatically. It's common myco knowledge: the larger the sub, the lower the biological efficiency.
Plus when there's a contaminant it All goes in the dump, instead of just 1 container going and the others continuing on.
There are many many reasons to keep containers unbroken and individual instead of breaking and amassing them.
As for why I don't modify the lids... I had silicone/SFD fall off my lids several times AFTER containers were sterilized and inoculated. What a frustrating waste.
The ones that DIDN'T Fall off like that allowed moisture loss and the drying of the surface mycelium closest to the filter. As long as you're using filters as such, not only can you not stop it, but you're practically doing it on purpose. That might not happen or badly, but since it's not necessary to grow, why would you maim your containers for that reason?
The containers already have more than enough air, especially for Agar dishes so a filter could stop a container from being used for agar dishes.
Besides, it eliminates many of the multiple uses for these containers Besides the direct grow.
I use them for nearly Everything, including many uses that wouldn't be possible with ugly maim mods.
Good answer... makes sense. Thanks.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
pasty doesnt care about a side by side experiment, if he did he could find out for 5$ in 3 weeks himself and prove his point.
If that's what you think you don't know me at all. I will try all kinds of stuff, ill advised or not. I have had many people admonish me not to do things but, I'm the kind of cat who has to try most things at least once. Bulk has been good to me but, that does not mean I'm not going to give v tek my best shot Already got my pp5 containers and am just trying to decide what kind of FC will give it the best chance of doing well in my horribly dry climate. Gonna do the G2G this week. I don't do experiments to watch them fail, not if I can help it. My biggest issue with it was people like you bashing people for growing any other method than what you approve of. If I see a person with a good grow, be it a straw log, pf cakes, monotub or even V tek, I will give them props on a job well done. IMO results speak for themselves and just cause I don't like cakes or straw, does not mean that results obtained with them are suddenly worthless.
Back on topic, I do like using grain soak water for agar, seems like it gives a little indication of how the culture will do when you put it to grain media. Too many times I have had deadly rhizomorphic cultures on PDA or MEA, only to have it go totally tomentose on the grains. I also remember that my first decent performing clone actually came from a BRF culture that I did with my last drop of spores solution from my first syringe. Good memories 
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19193431 - 11/26/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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ill take ya at your word pasty.
dont do it for me, or for violet, or even for the " report"
do it cuz ya want a better way to get more shrooms with less BS.
peeps who try it and the variants, like it for a reason.
the community is more mature than it was even a few yrs ago.
a good percent, now have the sterile skills, to do v-tek.
im most certain, youll be pleased.
in many ways pasty, this tek was designed for YOU.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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today after my maimed lids were done drying I filled them to tek and loaded them in the autoclave
I also pre-poured some agar for cloning pins, a couple grain jars and two LC's (not shown) for an unrelated projects also took the trip in the autoclave. Note: everything was cycled at 120minutes @20psi to test the durability of the PP5 containers which resulted in NO WARPING!!
here's the donor petri: PRINT>AGAR>5PETRIS(this being one of them) originated from a spore print to agar plate that has shown great bulk sub (judge me not) yields rendered from it's sister plates. I would like to isolate a few of the producer strains via this tek
loaded the glove box and went to work:
That's about it for now, I will update periodically until pinning.
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19193667 - 11/26/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think your doing fine.
im not even against the lids, as it does look good.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Yeah, looks sharp!
You said you roughed around the edges for the silicone so it should work pretty well.
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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mushrume man
Sadis Factory
Registered: 11/18/08
Posts: 375
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19195115 - 11/27/13 05:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Very encouraging. I think this in vitro tek is the new beginner step to replace PF for the beginning of this century. I love the idea of these agar petris but one thing I'm bothered by is whether or not you can see the myc growing without opening in SAB. I'm not willing to give up the visibility just yet or open contam dish in my room unknowingly
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19195297 - 11/27/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah you can easily see the contents thru the tall sides. The lids are colored but see-thru also.
Moisture condensation droplets inside are more likely to block visibility than the container itself.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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MMagg
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 41
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19195463 - 11/27/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushrume man said:
Very encouraging. I think this in vitro tek is the new beginner step to replace PF for the beginning of this century.
From what I can tell, it's a replacement for the bulk grow teks more than a beginning tek. Most people I see doing it have done all other teks and landed on this one as a final tek.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: MMagg]
#19195529 - 11/27/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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they are like i was,
using outdated teks,
and knowing in the back of your mind, theres a better way.
PF tek, lacks yield, and has a high supply effort ratio.
its why pros dont use it for scale usually.
bulks, work, for peeps that like shit, need a simple tek, and are happy with a big stinky energy consuming trich ending fast flush.
those that " just want a few handfulls," fast, and have rural access, are into this, it requires little more than buckets and hope.
not all teks, are for all people, environments and skill levels.
v-tek, was primarily designed, for the serious urban farm,
with BE, and work and supply, and power efficiency in mind,
now, the urban grower, can out run barn bulkers,
and avoid the pitfalls associated with monotubs.
its a good times,
its the future of the new age urban uber growers.
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (11/27/13 09:18 AM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
they are like i was,
using outdated teks,
and knowing in the back of your mind, theres a better way.
PF tek, lacks yield, and has a high supply effort ratio.
its why pros dont use it for scale usually.
bulks, work, for peeps that like shit, need a simple tek, and are happy with a big stinky energy consuming trich ending fast flush.
those that " just want a few handfulls," fast, and have rural access, are into this, it requires little more than buckets and hope.
not all teks, are for all people, environments and skill levels.
v-tek, was primarily designed, for the serious urban farm,
with BE, and work and supply, and power efficiency in mind,
now, the urban grower, can out run barn bulkers,
and avoid the pitfalls associated with monotubs.
its a good times,
its the future of the new age urban uber growers.
Not really, I have to add while the v-tek is a good tek, it really isn't that efficient. Comparing Pftek with vtek, the results can be the same, especially messing with MS. Which most people start off with anyway. If I have a proven clone that has a strong yield, why bother with more than a dozen plastic trays when someone could spawn to a larger coir substrate. I'm not arguing one tek versus the other but to me it sounds like you just like attention.
There is no evidence to the vtek being more BE than a bulk grow. Your're arguments are never objective, they're always so demeaning and there is really no need for that. Why can't you just accept that both teks have their cons and pros. They both work, but to say bulk teks are for people that have no skill is plain D-U-M-B. I don't understand your radical feminist point of views...
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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i wouldnt expect ya to understand
youd have to understand BE first.
ya dont.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19194185
takes moxy to have an opinion like that,
considering the link above shows your experience level.
all those with bio training,realize all ag products,
can be measured scientifically for nute values.
oz per oz, whole seed, is way more nutes / energy per pound.
of course, you dont realize that, and fill in the blanks on your theories.
i dont think anyone here, is trying to convince bulkers.
if they had the bio training to appreciate BE , and sterile skills, they wouldnt be doing bulks in the first place.
classic, how everything bends to bulks ,
to compensate for lacking skill.
anyone can grow if they stack enough cow.
as said, some of are aware of the total grow,
and, not just who got the biggest tub at wall world.
the easy question is,
why dont lab growers ever convert to bulk?
maybe they know something you dont?
and no, i really dont wanna hear about your failed lab, and how bulks saved the day.
thats not a success story, thats failure and a lucky rebound.
if ya had the lab skills in the first place, no need for bulk,
and stacking cow, didnt make ya a mycologist all of a sudden.
it just means ya got lucky.
those who practice good lab skill, can use many difernt teks, and get good results, if ya have to use a tek " because it works for you"
id question skill , and not teks.
fact is, at some point, someone is gonna do a tub sized V-tek,
and record the yield.
the comparison, adjusted for surface value, and flushes,
will be apparent.
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (11/27/13 12:31 PM)
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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@anne halonium
Your posts about bulk grows intrigue me and I would like to have a discussion that would help me understand your views. by the way I have a full understanding of B.E. please pardon any lack of grammar as I'm on my phone right now
I guess my first question is, what is your preferred method of cultivation on a commercial basis?
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19196288 - 11/27/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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my prefered method is the v-tek,
for the last 15 yrs for scale of exotics .
i have no interest in common edibles.
if your argument is
" giant comercials use bulks for edibles"
save it for another forum.
it has no relevancy to the points made here.
or to the type of logistics, and species involved here.
if your aware of BE,
seed over turd, should be apparent.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
my prefered method is the v-tek,
for the last 15 yrs for scale of exotics .
could you give me a link or brief overview?
Quote:
i have no interest in common edibles.
if your argument is
" giant comercials use bulks for edibles"
save it for another forum.
No argument just asking, That's been my position so far but I'm always open to new methods, smoke a bowl and relax
Quote:
if your aware of BE,
seed over turd, should be apparent.
quite apparent, but how is it applied?
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19196618 - 11/27/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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rather than get too far off topic, see this link........
the basic v-tek.........
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18135103
some of my original teks, can still be found on other forums.
our next thread here , will also include an annie -v -tek version
application, would be obvious, use seed.
there are energy/ composition calculators on the web.
im always humored, no one has figured this out yet.
one can get the energy value for any ag material this way.
peeps who have questions beyond the thread , would be best served,
to PM me, or find me thru my blogs.
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mushrume man
Sadis Factory
Registered: 11/18/08
Posts: 375
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Ok Anne enough poo talk we all know a lot of bulkers use coir or straw anymore.
I think this is a great beginner tek because it is accessible to many as these container are everywhere and cheap. It uses rice which most available. No need for any fluff or glue or busted equipment cuz you drilled to hard. It's a perfect way to learn cloning and agar and the whole life cycle of the fungus. It does require a PC but any real amateur mycologists needs one anyhow.
The BE of bulk is what draws me to violets teks. Why prep all the pounds of coir if it is diluting your BE. I thought ten pounds of compost would equal a pound of dry fungus but it didn't for whatever reason even with the four quarts of grain.
When it's said that ten lbs of grain will net me three lbs with a good clone I can't help but follow along with the teks that promises to help realize what I've read to be possible
Think back to when these numbers were first established. Cubes were grown out of straight grain in jars much along the lines of v tek. It's honorable to revive and perfect that in the face of such industrialized bulk grows that waste time and money on poor BE, prep and waiting to recolonize. Sure bulk has its upsides but its more applicable to a large working area. Commercial
Enough debate tho I just had to put in my 2cents on this.
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19196723 - 11/27/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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probly use to it by now though lol, some neat stuff in here though
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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: cronicr]
#19196918 - 11/27/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right on, thanks for the link and discussion, I shall do some reading/calculating.
as it stands now my current method is agar>grain>10grain>100 grain jars spawned at 2:1 with hpoo(free) mixed straws ($11 for a 40lb perfectly chopped compress block, good for ten grows) verm ($18 for a 50lb bag, good for ten grows). each tub ( again free - used merchandise shipping tote, with the two piece plastic lids removed). there's 20 totes total each receiving 5qts spawn 10qts sub mix. on average yielding 5lbs dry from a single yield puts me at~55%B.E. per cycle as I do not flush more than once, all with a floor space of 48 square feet.
I bring this up because from a commercial aspect I must take into account yield per grow area, container cost, substrate costs ( rice is more expensive than free poo) and time prepping the substrate or grow medium (I can steam pasteurize 200qts of poo/straw in one cycle).
I'm not arguing the B.E. of grain vs poo but instead which has a better B.E. when used as a cultivation technique on a commercial basis(?)
I do not know the answers to these questions but I am interested in the results
I don't flush more than once as I've found that the second flush (10-14 days later) is only about 20-30%B.E. and the third resulting in only 10-15% 10-14 days after that and very contam prune at this time, instead I take my 55% and dump, clean, and refill the tubs and so on
--------------------
AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
Edited by WillSolvem (11/27/13 03:12 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19196940 - 11/27/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushrume man said:
Think back to when these numbers were first established. Cubes were grown out of straight grain in jars much along the lines of v tek. It's honorable to revive and perfect that
when oss and oeric came out in the mid 70's,
the times and equip were different.
believe me, i know i started in 1977.
v tek , is essentially oss and oeric,
with seed, plastics , ferts, and bottom watering.
blue lights, are also a possible mod.
updated and more enhanced from the original.
always cracks me up, some of the things peeps say.
the basics of this tek, was proven before most were born.
the new age, v-tek, and you.
also, i wouldnt suggest its a " beginner tek",
the sterile skills, to replicate with confidence every time,
would put it in the range of mid level to advanced.
oss and oeric, is one of the original mass market teks.
think about it.
the rise of PF tek, and bulks,
is based on people not being able to do oss and oeric in the first place.
Quote:
WillSolvem said:
Right on, thanks for the link and discussion, I shall do some reading/calculating.
pm me, and ill share some info id rather not discuss on this thread,
i understand your concerns, we get around it, and we are pry more budget aware than most, as we see the entire grow picture.
peeps only see $ , they fail to relaize, the best growers,
are actually among the cheapest per unit over time.
Edited by anne halonium (11/27/13 03:17 PM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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|
Quote:
anne halonium said:
i wouldnt expect ya to understand
youd have to understand BE first.
ya dont.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19194185
takes moxy to have an opinion like that,
considering the link above shows your experience level.
all those with bio training,realize all ag products,
can be measured scientifically for nute values.
oz per oz, whole seed, is way more nutes / energy per pound.
of course, you dont realize that, and fill in the blanks on your theories.
i dont think anyone here, is trying to convince bulkers.
if they had the bio training to appreciate BE , and sterile skills, they wouldnt be doing bulks in the first place.
classic, how everything bends to bulks ,
to compensate for lacking skill.
anyone can grow if they stack enough cow.
as said, some of are aware of the total grow,
and, not just who got the biggest tub at wall world.
the easy question is,
why dont lab growers ever convert to bulk?
maybe they know something you dont?
and no, i really dont wanna hear about your failed lab, and how bulks saved the day.
thats not a success story, thats failure and a lucky rebound.
if ya had the lab skills in the first place, no need for bulk,
and stacking cow, didnt make ya a mycologist all of a sudden.
it just means ya got lucky.
those who practice good lab skill, can use many difernt teks, and get good results, if ya have to use a tek " because it works for you"
id question skill , and not teks.
fact is, at some point, someone is gonna do a tub sized V-tek,
and record the yield.
the comparison, adjusted for surface value, and flushes,
will be apparent.
So because I failed to put on a proper lid that makes me inexperienced?  OKEEDOKEE clown shoes It happens when your're dealing with multiple dozens of jars.
Your're a simple cube grower, congrats
You're an arrogant radical feminist who tries to run her mouth about topics you have no clue about.
Please, I've tried your tek and it's simple as pie, so is bulk
You act like you have to be a mycologist to grow cubes, grow up druggie and grow some edibles
Then come talk to me about BE, any idiot savant could grow cubes. ANYBODY. I'm not going to brag about my lab, i'll leave that to you.
All you do is say how bulkers are just worried about yield, yet to defend your tek you say it is better because of yield? Doesn't make a lot of sense. I've tried your tek and it works, but you know what? It isn't harder than bulk. A noob could do it too. It's wasted space in a greenhouse, you can fruit straight wheat if you wanted 
But anyway I'm done
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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your dozens of jars opinion has been noted.
if your so fond of bulks, be happy.
of course a noob could do it.
they dont usually.
they prefer 5$ bucket teks.
of course any fool can grow cubes.
its a cornerstone.
and a testimint to cube survival , not skill.
however,
getting lots of cubes fast and reliable, with power,
with minimal equip and energy is skill.
thats the point.
fact is, the v-tekkers arent interested in " just growing'
were interested in efficient controllable reliable crops.
proper lids, or lid issues , really arent a problem, when ya use PP5.
you should be aware, its a cornerstone of the tek.
as far as edibles, i dont spend major money, time or effort,
on things i can buy for a few dollars a pound at the mall.
edibles are usually grown bulk style under low security,
and,
they have nothing to do with high value, high yield, fast moving indoor, high security exotic crops.
you might as well compare indoor dank, and outdoor corn.
if a feminist tek offends your misogny,
crash a tek where bucket size, and only big shrooms,
count more than power, yield or skill.
theres plenty...........how they workin for ya?
--------------------
Edited by anne halonium (11/27/13 06:40 PM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: anne halonium] 1
#19197755 - 11/27/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh everyone shut up already.
This is CULTURE TECH thread. The original posts' topics are the thread's topics.
I don't give a damn about anyone's feelings about anyone else, nor whoever feels they got their toes stepped-on by what anonymous strangers on a forum said. Grow up people, this is a mushi culti forum. If you really want to get it out of your systems, it's a completely off-topic and you can take it to OTD or wherever else you like.
In the sense relative to this thread, it's significantly easier to home-grow already-isolated master cultures of hardy edible isolate cultures than it is for common hobbyists to isolate ideal Cubensis in the same way those master cultures were found.
Personally I would call this a "beginner" tech, considering that a beginner in culturing is a beginner in still-air clean transfer work too.
If a smart beginner wisens up to using a SAB right off the bat, I'm quite sure that this culturing and its expanded invitro growing style would be an excellent beginner technique, easier and more fruitful than PFtek.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
your dozens of jars opinion has been noted.
if your so fond of bulks, be happy.
of course a noob could do it.
they dont usually.
they prefer 5$ bucket teks.
of course any fool can grow cubes.
its a cornerstone.
and a testimint to cube survival , not skill.
however,
getting lots of cubes fast and reliable, with power,
with minimal equip and energy is skill.
thats the point.
fact is, the v-tekkers arent interested in " just growing'
were interested in efficient controllable reliable crops.
proper lids, or lid issues , really arent a problem, when ya use PP5.
you should be aware, its a cornerstone of the tek.
as far as edibles, i dont spend major money, time or effort,
on things i can buy for a few dollars a pound at the mall.
edibles are usually grown bulk style under low security,
and,
they have nothing to do with high value, high yield, fast moving indoor, high security exotic crops.
you might as well compare indoor dank, and outdoor corn.
if a feminist tek offends your misogny,
crash a tek where bucket size, and only big shrooms,
count more than power, yield or skill.
theres plenty...........how they workin for ya?
Anne the damn vtek works and it works great. Violet my sincerest apologies mam
Great write up by the way and thank you for contributing this vast amount of information to the community. I'd have to say your wrong on growing cubes versus edibles, edibles are harder imo to grow.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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You really think edibles are harder to grow?
I own and have grown several cultures of Shiitake, several species of Oyster, and many other edible fungi cultures.
They're such a cinch. Getting equally easy and fruitful crops of Cubensis involves doing some culture work that has already been done for you with edible cultures.
Sure growing multi-spore Cubensis is easy. Squirting an LC of a mailed-in power master edibles culture and growing veracious Oysters on whatever is easy too, IMO even easier since good edible isolates are less picky.
However, for someone with a given skill level they'll have a much easier and larger crop from lab-handled edible isolates than Cubensis they started from spore.
Even with an equally strong Cubensis isolate it's not going to be any easier than would be those identical procedures with edible isolates.
That's what this tek thread is about, bringing awesome Cubensis culturing not only down to simplicity but within a beginner's reach.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19200080 - 11/28/13 10:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
simplicity but within a beginner's reach.
most beginners can do it. key word "most".
some , may have difficulty on the sterile part.
Edited by anne halonium (11/28/13 10:10 AM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19205269 - 11/29/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
Violet said:
simplicity but within a beginner's reach.
most beginners can do it. key word "most".
some , may have difficulty on the sterile part.
LOL agreed IMO it always takes a couple fails and shortcuts before a person realizes that cleanliness and proper sterile procedure is the most important part of mycology. If you don't have the time to do it right, then don't do it. The most valuable lesson I have learned in all my projects.
Quote:
Violet said:
You really think edibles are harder to grow?
I own and have grown several cultures of Shiitake, several species of Oyster, and many other edible fungi cultures.
They're such a cinch. Getting equally easy and fruitful crops of Cubensis involves doing some culture work that has already been done for you with edible cultures.
Sure growing multi-spore Cubensis is easy. Squirting an LC of a mailed-in power master edibles culture and growing veracious Oysters on whatever is easy too, IMO even easier since good edible isolates are less picky.
However, for someone with a given skill level they'll have a much easier and larger crop from lab-handled edible isolates than Cubensis they started from spore.
Even with an equally strong Cubensis isolate it's not going to be any easier than would be those identical procedures with edible isolates.
That's what this tek thread is about, bringing awesome Cubensis culturing not only down to simplicity but within a beginner's reach.
I agree with the first part of being able to start directly with clean LC as most vendors sell viable cultures with great genetics already, so that makes it easier to obtain a master slant for edibles, but on the actual growing side of things I think hands down edibles are harder to grow than cubes. There are generally more parameters that need to be followed than there are with cubes. Most edibles need more FAE and a more stable RH%. It's easier to keep a GH or GR stable at 95-99% but try keeping a GH at 80-85% and it seems more hard at least in my experience. Cubes and oysters are fairly easy and both I would recommend to a person just jumping into mycology but as for lions mane or portabellos where you have to have different RH% in different stages of the mushrooms life cycles I would not.
They just seem more tedious and I have tremendous respect for people that are able to make a living off of growing edible and medical mushrooms. It is so much work. What evens out psychedelic mushrooms I think is the potency factor as well. Not only does one have to find a culture that creates ample fruit bodies, but they also have to be worth the work. Especially dealing with MS, it can take hundreds of agar plates to find that one holy grail.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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^ kinda off topic.
even by my standards.
i wanna see more grain petri pics.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/29/13 03:32 PM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
^ kinda off topic.
even by my standards.
i wanna see more grain petri pics.
If I only had any grain petri dishes
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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just PC'd 6 small (4oz) grain containers. they were glad brand snap on (in know not the TEK to a t, but i use these for agar sometimes when I'm out of petris), but I modified the lid with a small 1/8inch hole with 2 layers micropore (thats how I prep these for agar with success, thanks to pastywhite) 4 of them are brown rice, per Violets prep, and 2 of them are wheat berries, also per Violets prep. both were hydrated enough to easily break when squished between fingers, but not "fully" hydrated, in hopes of the PC cook finishing the job(there was still some moisture on the grains, hopefully correct amount). not much in each container, I'd say about 3 heaping tablespoons of grain in each wheat berry, and 2 heaping in each brown rice. PC was 15 psi for 38 minutes ( I read Violet saying 43 min or so but for bigger containers with much more grain, these are tiny and no stacking of containers was needed). All containers were lifted well above water line by putting three 1/2 pints glass jars under PC grate, so no water would touch/get into them. foil was also placed on top of each container and wrapped tightly around the lid, so no PC "rain" would fall on top of them and so that no plastic was directly touching PC wall. I work overnights so Ill take them out of PC around 10pm before work and see how they look (I'm hoping they expanded just a little), then put some agar wedges in them tomorrow, which is when I will also post pics. Only thing I'm concerned about was the 38 minute thing, but since i used so little in each container (3 tablespoons) I think Im ok. it may have been 41 min just cause I started timer a little after reaching 15psi, and the cool down probably was at 15 psi for at least 2-3 minutes. I just didn't want to do longer because they were so small and I didn't want to overcook the grains. any thoughts are welcome, good or bad, otherwise I'll update tomorrow. Thanks Violet!
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19205976 - 11/29/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said:
just PC'd 6 small (4oz) grain containers. they were glad brand snap on (in know not the TEK to a t, but i use these for agar sometimes when I'm out of petris), but I modified the lid with a small 1/8inch hole with 2 layers micropore (thats how I prep these for agar with success, thanks to pastywhite)
Oh wait, I love them things. Easy as pie, small, can fit lots in the fridge, reuse em many times 
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19206345 - 11/29/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so update...just took them out of pc. there isa lot of moisture inside containers, not a pool on bottom, but drips around sides. I shook them all, making it disappear, and put them aside to look tomorrow, and am hoping for no pooling on bottom. the grain, when I shook the containers, sounded a little firmer than al dente. brown rice is not clumpy at all, but in reference to Violets picture on her grain prep page (maybe I should move these posts there) my rice was a little less cooked than her final BR pic, there were no split grains at all. I was aiming for less hydrated than more hydrated, as per ur post, at least with the brown rice. my rice looks more cooked than ur first BR pic and less cooked than ur second BR pic in this post in the section "short boiling prep"
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19035211
I'm hoping they are saturated enough, but we will find out within a week or so when the agar wedge starts or doesn't.
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Quote:
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT said:
I have tremendous respect for people that are able to make a living off of growing edible and medical mushrooms.
Thank you, most people haven't a fucking clue how hard the gourmet and medicinal mushroom industry is.
though you make good points I would like to add a few that weren't mentioned
first, cubes will sell themselves, even the most fugiphobic people I've met are willing to eat mushroom if it gets them high
second, the price, cubes are about $1000 per pound while gourmet and medicinal mushrooms average $12 a pound ( as per the American mushroom institute's website) considering if they are unprocessed
third, adhering to mushroom GAP standards for cultivation and to the FDA cleanliness and purity standards in regards to packaging
forth, most of the janky-ass teks around here wouldn't pass health code, so here's looking at all new food grade equipment, even the fucking tables have to stainless in this state. like your Martha? I was told the plastic isn't food grade and the tubing and shelves can't be used because they rust even if there is no direct contact, but they are ok to use if it's for starting seedlings you intend to sell.
and fifth, no mushroom farm can turn a profit offering only one species. my company offers 14, that's fourteen different grown parameters...
so to recap, between demand/desire, production, the amounts needed to produce a profit, varieties offered, pricing, cost of goods sold, regulation, taxes, and the over all stress of running a business by far makes edibles ALLOT HARDER TO CULTIVATE AND SELL
I will not link my website to this page, at least not while discussing p. cubensis. But PM if your interested in checking it out
Edited by WillSolvem (11/30/13 08:59 AM)
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Yuri.Pono
MAD SCIENTIST
Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 279
Loc: SO HIGH O 
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: MaJiK_420]
#19207831 - 11/30/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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just curious to how you handle the condensation for your Agar dishes?
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Yuri.Pono]
#19207849 - 11/30/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I prepour them, leave open until cool, add lids then autoclave, no condensation. there's a few ways to skin this proverbial cat, this is what works for me, I posted some pictures of my agar dishes earlier in this thread
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: WillSolvem]
#19207877 - 11/30/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i use culture bottles......
therefore condensation isnt an issue really.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Yuri.Pono]
#19207961 - 11/30/13 09:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are little tricks one can employ to help with condensation. Things like knocking moisture off the sides after removing from cooker and sealing, and things regarding the heat differentials which cause condensation, such as waiting until the dishes are cool when pouring disposable plastic dishes and keeping them stacked. One thing that can help some is leaving them in the cooker until room temperature.
Personally I don't bother with it much since I use sterile laminar airflow for sterile work. I just shake the moisture out of them so I don't have any extra in there.
I think condensation will only be an issue if you have problems with bacteria contams.
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs
Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19208164 - 11/30/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Glad to see that someone else showing photos of their glad/ziplock pp5 petri contraptions. I have been using ziplocks for the last 3 months, and think they are splendid because they are cheap, reusable and very inconspicuous. They have a large surface area. I have hated the condensation build up which seems to happen on some dishes more than others. I noticed that keeping them in the autoclave until cool helps, as does the addition of stacking them and waiting a few days prior to use.
I made GE ports for mine by melting a small hole in the center of the lid. I was concerned that a drill would cause the lid to crack later, where the burn reinforced itself.
I used poly fill and packed it tight, then melted both fuzzy ends till it was a nice flat "puck" on the inside and out of the lid. I did not melt the polyfill to the lid, just got it close. Its hard to explain without pictures, but it works great.
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19208395 - 11/30/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
There are little tricks one can employ to help with condensation. Things like knocking moisture off the sides after removing from cooker and sealing, and things regarding the heat differentials which cause condensation, such as waiting until the dishes are cool when pouring disposable plastic dishes and keeping them stacked. One thing that can help some is leaving them in the cooker until room temperature.
Personally I don't bother with it much since I use sterile laminar airflow for sterile work. I just shake the moisture out of them so I don't have any extra in there.
I think condensation will only be an issue if you have problems with bacteria contams.
I work with plastic petris so I don't know if my method will help with condensation or not, but I like to stack a hot glass of water on the first couple of petris that were poured(they're usually the hottest and thus create the most dry adiabatic heating). It makes a tremendous difference in the amount of condensation in those first dishes, by then it though my agar usually seems to cool off. Quote:
WillSolvem said:
Quote:
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT said:
I have tremendous respect for people that are able to make a living off of growing edible and medical mushrooms.
Thank you, most people haven't a fucking clue how hard the gourmet and medicinal mushroom industry is.
though you make good points I would like to add a few that weren't mentioned
first, cubes will sell themselves, even the most fugiphobic people I've met are willing to eat mushroom if it gets them high
second, the price, cubes are about $1000 per pound while gourmet and medicinal mushrooms average $12 a pound ( as per the American mushroom institute's website) considering if they are unprocessed
third, adhering to mushroom GAP standards for cultivation and to the FDA cleanliness and purity standards in regards to packaging
forth, most of the janky-ass teks around here wouldn't pass health code, so here's looking at all new food grade equipment, even the fucking tables have to stainless in this state. like your Martha? I was told the plastic isn't food grade and the tubing and shelves can't be used because they rust even if there is no direct contact, but they are ok to use if it's for starting seedlings you intend to sell.
and fifth, no mushroom farm can turn a profit offering only one species. my company offers 14, that's fourteen different grown parameters...
so to recap, between demand/desire, production, the amounts needed to produce a profit, varieties offered, pricing, cost of goods sold, regulation, taxes, and the over all stress of running a business by far makes edibles ALLOT HARDER TO CULTIVATE AND SELL
I will not link my website to this page, at least not while discussing p. cubensis. But PM if your interested in checking it out
Absolutely cubes sell themselves, forgot about that part! I never knew how hard the FDA swamps growers. Are you organic? I have family out in California that own a major fruit and nut orchard an they go crazy with dealing with California's safety codes along with the FDA constantly on their ass. Plus I believe my uncle has to pay thousands of dollars just to obtain the licence and certification of being named ORGANIC. When I would work at the farmers markets I would always go browse the mushroom stands. It was a shame though because most the growers only spoke Japanese or mandarin, so I couldn't ask how well their business does. I'm assuming anyone who busts his or her ass of that hard to grow mushrooms should make a decent salary...close to 6 digits I would imagine. I know what out-grow does is basically set up mushroom farms for his living in PA and he makes a pretty penny I would imagine as well.
I would love a link, PM me! If you don't mind I would love to get all the info I could if possible. When I started asking out-grow too much information he kind of shunned me lol.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Our products are not certified organic for the same hassles your uncle has to endure to obtain and keep his. I'm hoping regulation with regards to mushrooms labeled as organic will stabilize.
one of the big hang ups is that you have to use 100% cert organic everything, sawdust: they want to know where it originated from, not just if I got it from a lumber mill but where did they get that wood and from what tree, grain: where did they get/grow, rice bran, gypsum, straws, ect. and since I use multiple or chance sources for spawn/substrate media that unless every single source is verified if they aren't already certified becomes too time consuming and not with the time/costs to keep those records to obtain the certification
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19208560 - 11/30/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I also just made up 40 'brown rice' agar plates. I don't have anything to use them for yet, but hopefully I will have some promising pins and fruits in the next week or so to start isolating. How long do your plates usually last? I made a lot because I figure I would have to do a number of transfers per variety I am playing with.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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you assume all cube growers are hacks.
im certainly aware of food and safety standards,
federal state and local.
my grows, likely exceed food grade,
and my standard , is pry close to medical grade.
im pretty confident, most edibles peeps, wouldnt meet my standards.
edible sales, are no different than any other ag crop.
exotics, you over look the presence of LEO in the loop.
anyone actually growing at a 1k LB rate,
needs to offer better quality, find better buyers, or get a real job.
once again,
this is comparing dank farmers indoor hydro, and outdoor soybean crops.
i really dont get, how advanced micro lab teks,
for high value crops, relates to edibles.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
you assume all cube growers are hacks.
you don't know me, how do you know what I assume? am I not devoting some of my time to this Tek?
what I truly assume is when people get defensive about someone else's point of view, I assume they can't form one of their own...
I also assume that when a user has only been registered for 6 months but has 1300+ posts of expert advice claiming a vast history and experience in the field, yet ops out of ratings and posts zero pictures and posts what has already been said, I assume I'm dealing with a troll, want to change my mind, post a picture with my name on a piece of paper next to a living mushroom, take as long as you need
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
Edited by WillSolvem (11/30/13 06:16 PM)
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Dark76
Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 121
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19209484 - 11/30/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wondering whether I should turn my ignore off....
On second thought...
EDIT: Evidence or Scapegoatery. You be the judge.
Edited by Dark76 (11/30/13 06:07 PM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac
Registered: 07/19/12
Posts: 380
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19209886 - 11/30/13 07:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
WillSolvem said:
Quote:
anne halonium said:
you assume all cube growers are hacks.
you don't know me, how do you know what I assume? am I not devoting some of my time to this Tek?
what I truly assume is when people get defensive about someone else's point of view, I assume they can't form one of their own...
I also assume that when a user has only been registered for 6 months but has 1300+ posts of expert advice claiming a vast history and experience in the field, yet ops out of ratings and posts zero pictures and posts what has already been said, I assume I'm dealing with a troll, want to change my mind, post a picture with my name on a piece of paper next to a living mushroom, take as long as you need
Exactly, Anne gets too defensive about topics I truly believe she knows nothing about, I'm sorry, Anne, I'm having a decent conversation with someone who grows medicinal and gourmet mushrooms
I looked at your link and your farm looks great! I am curious as to how you fruit in such a large scale? Do you do outdoor and indoor grows? And are all those pics on your site your own grows? Your reshi's look  amazing if that's the case amigo!
Anne I seriously doubt your little lab as you say meets FDA requirements lol.
Please, if you have ever actually worked on a farm or orchard you would know how tedious that would be
Violet I'm going to do some grain petri dishes! Wish me luck
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Culturing Tech • Agar containers, "Grain Petri" Tek, Invitro growing & Sterile Spores! [Re: Violet]
#19210272 - 11/30/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool post, I used a jar and just agar:
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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leap off!
They all look good, I love how clear these PP5 containers are, sorry for the shotty pictures, I'll take more soon!
@nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
it's divided up pretty well, in spring we inoculate stumps and ground contact logs in the local state parks/forests for outdoor cultivation while others are cultivated indoors only I usually don't cultivate chaga (obviously), birch polypore, or Turkey tail as the latter two aren't huge sellers and are extremely plentiful here in the northeast. this year we have moved into 13k sq ft warehouse to offer year round fresh produce but still continue the hop houses on the original farm for seasonal growing. reishi conks are achieved through bag culture, 4.5lbs of substrate are inoculated with grain, the bag is closed with two pieces of metal that form a collar, the opening is plugged with polyfil, after colonized I stack them 10 bags high by 15 bags long (see stamets ggmm "reishi wall" for those who want to know more) with the opening facing forward, I secure them with wire and poles that guide the wire, I wait 48 hrs for the mycelium to recover then remove the plugs.. you can fit two of these walls in a car port from harbor freight, I use solid top plastic shipping pallets for the flooring, bolt them together, drill holes for cables as needed, you get the idea. there is even space in the center for two fold out tables for block or bottle cultivation. I really like the car ports they are very solid once set in concrete, it defused the light perfectly, the entire fabric can be replaced as needed, if you use buckets of cement or rocks it can be disassembled and stored as needed.. I use fabric glue to apply mesh for pest control. and at the price expanding to multiple units is easy and looks uniform, the down side for a few months out of the year they are useless
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
Edited by WillSolvem (12/01/13 08:51 AM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19211663 - 12/01/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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^once again, your not only off topic, but boring.
im sure at this point , youll resort to insults,
in a sad attempt to be relevant,
mostly cuz im rather well known, and you, are not.
insulting me, is the closest youve been to on topic.
and pry the closet you get to glory.
do something of note sometime, and ill care about your opinions.
i scanned your threads.....
im not sure your even an established amatuer.
your comments above, suggest your a new grower, that passed shop class
an established grower would be built out, and not as ego centric .
also,
im glad as an expert grower, you finally discovered PP5 in 2013
we have used grain and PP5 for over a decade.
glad ya finally caught up.
i dont see where this characters shop class grow for edibles, has anything to do with the thread at hand.
i scanned your threads.....
im not sure your even an established amatuer.
Edited by anne halonium (12/01/13 10:00 AM)
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mastercultivator
Master Cultivator
Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 653
Last seen: 9 months, 18 days
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19211751 - 12/01/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Violet. Awesome writeup especially enjoyed the pics of the pin placed on agar and the pin still maturing into a sporulating fruitbody. I cut the tops off my pins when I know they are gonna be on agar for more than 5 days because they do try to mature and produce spores.
aeseptic or aseptic is the correct term for 'clean spores' It means the spores are viable but not contaminated with junk.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Violet said:
STERILE SPORES
Considered an oxymoron by most that I've seen on these forums. It's often said that "No spore print is sterile, since fruits do not grow in sterile conditions." These ones do.
Sterile spores will not grow. I think you meant to say 'clean spore print' or something similar, but not sterile. The term sterile spores is only an oxymoron if you expect them to grow.
RR
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I'm awesome sauce with a dash of sunshine.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Quote:
mastercultivator said:
Violet. Awesome writeup especially enjoyed the pics of the pin placed on agar and the pin still maturing into a sporulating fruitbody. I cut the tops off my pins when I know they are gonna be on agar for more than 5 days because they do try to mature and produce spores.
aeseptic or aseptic is the correct term for 'clean spores' It means the spores are viable but not contaminated with junk.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Violet said:
STERILE SPORES
Considered an oxymoron by most that I've seen on these forums. It's often said that "No spore print is sterile, since fruits do not grow in sterile conditions." These ones do.
Sterile spores will not grow. I think you meant to say 'clean spore print' or something similar, but not sterile. The term sterile spores is only an oxymoron if you expect them to grow.
RR
Yea, I'm going to have to not go with RR on this one. Obviously it's not "sterile" but since there's no word for "only spores and no other material capable of producing some sort of life on a piece of foil etc." we just call it a sterile spore print. Everyone with the slightest hint of common sense would know a sterile SPORE print means there's spores and it's inherently not sterile because of that, but we're obviously not talking about a virgin piece of foil. Clean would be a good word IE clean spore print, but that's more vague and less precise than saying a sterile SPORE PRINT (IE has spores duh).
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: bodhisatta]
#19212080 - 12/01/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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@anne halonium
Quote:
I assume I'm dealing with a troll, want to change my mind, post a picture with my name on a piece of paper next to a living mushroom, take as long as you need
still waiting on that picture...
Edited by WillSolvem (12/01/13 11:24 AM)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Peeps want to talk about something other than broken-record applications of diverse semantics, edible mushroom farms, egotism defense/attack, sizing-up, bullshit?
CULTURE TECH thread.
Willsolvem's grain petri posts are the only on-topic part. Thus it is the only part that may be continued.
Those look great Will!, but it's hard to tell if your lid is screwed down tight.
Since your containers are tall and your grain layer extra shallow, you'll need to be quite careful to minimize moisture loss. When the time comes to pin them, only slightly crack its lid.
Bodhisatta you see what I mean!
Quote:
I say "sterile spores" in the same way that we do "sterile work" despite that we are actually breaking sterility by inoculating the target organism.
If we did "sterile work" and "kept our jars sterile" as strictly as you imply "sterility" to mean there, we'd never grow anything in our jars either...
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19212237 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Peeps want to talk about something other than broken-record applications of diverse semantics, edible mushroom farms, egotism defense/attack, sizing-up, bullshit?
CULTURE TECH thread.
Willsolvem's grain petri posts are the only on-topic part. Thus it is the only part that may be continued.
Loud and clear, I'll cut the bullshit out, my apologies
Quote:
Those look great Will!, but it's hard to tell if your lid is screwed down tight.
Since your containers are tall and your grain layer extra shallow, you'll need to be quite careful to minimize moisture loss. When the time comes to pin them, only slightly crack its lid.
the lids are on tight, these are an off brand/store brand containers. I only opted for them because they didn't have the indentations on the sides and they were on sale for .99¢ for three, I already wish I bought more!
I have some allenii I just cleaned up for the 2014 fall season, I'm thinking of trying it out on this Tek before I start my grain masters, would you know off hand if allenii can be fruited from Brown rice or would I need to supplement with sawdust? does allenii require a casing? I've never done anything but the flower-pot-woodchip-tek so I'm limited on my allenii knowledge
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: WillSolvem]
#19212265 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh yeah I know those type store-brand containers, they label them differently for all kinds of chain marts. They're quite good, the only kind I get other than Ziploc, and I'm happy with them especially for invitro fruiting.
My memory leads me to think Allenii is a seasonal woodeater that calls for the shift of fall to winter conditions.
If that is the case, this culture tech and the container growing tech are probably only limitedly applicable.
Using these containers for agar dishes would still work with any species of course.
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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mushrume man
Sadis Factory
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19212378 - 12/01/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I haven't seen these cheaper PP5s. I would love to find them tho since Im a broke SOB.
Could someone post a link or send me in the right direction?
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • STERILE SPORES [Re: Violet]
#19212480 - 12/01/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
My memory leads me to think Allenii is a seasonal woodeater that calls for the shift of fall to winter conditions.
If that is the case, this culture tech and the container growing tech are probably only limitedly applicable.
Using these containers for agar dishes would still work with any species of course.
you are correct, it's a seasonal woodlover. my thoughts were too mimic the temperatures I recorded this year to promote fruiting. I'll grab some more containers and try some varied media. it could be a waste of time by my search results rendered only theories but no similar applications so somebody should try it, even if all we learn is that it doesn't work, I'll keep you updated
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs
Registered: 01/05/13
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
mostly cuz im rather well known, and you, are not.
You are guilty of being a hero in your own mind. Your horrible attempts to "promote" your future WHILE you are murdering sentence structures does not impress. You may be well known, but its not for the reasons you seem to think. Infamous/famous are two different things.
Thanks for your whatever it is you brought to the table Anne, but I have given you enough of my time. I feel dumber for reading your posts, and will be ignoring you. You come preaching about the future, but the only solid thing you have presented about said future is PP5 containers. Myself and others around these parts discovered pp5 long before you ever came here telling us how wonderful it was. TBH, this forum would be better off without you, but that is my opinion.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Excuse me, but what does that have to do with Culture Tech Thread?
Did someone ask you to post your opinion of Anne here? That wasn't even worth your mental time or typing energy.
Especially not posting a single thing relevant to the thread. I'd even say that garbage is plenty more annoying.
I said no more of both that type comment from Anne as well as if not Especially yours. I don't give a damn how badly you want to get your shot in. Get over it / grow up and drop it, or retain it and stew over it at OTD, but this is not the place.
You'll only irritate the moderators. And rest assured they Will be notified of any more off-topic, personal attack or flaming, egotistical sizing-up, rule-breaking, wrong-forum bullshit. I have lost all patience for that over the last year.
Quote:
mushrume man said:
I haven't seen these cheaper PP5s. I would love to find them tho since Im a broke SOB.
Could someone post a link or send me in the right direction?
They're really not that much cheaper, if at all.
All kinds of stores carry these type re-brand containers, for instance stores like kmart & target, and local grocery marts
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (12/02/13 07:50 AM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Quote:
Whippy said:
Quote:
anne halonium said:
mostly cuz im rather well known, and you, are not.
im not interested wipey,
in giving you a platform for your trollery on this thread.
PM me , and let me know who you are so i can care?
please, on with the culture tek show.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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sry took a bit to upload. so, my last post talked about how the grains might have been too dry...guess not. the wheat doing ok too, but only has spread to one grain, so this is only worth pic. guess I'm gonna drop agar wedges in the other 5. the rubber band is on there because its a glad snap on and its a bit too loose for my taste. i don't band up my agar PP5s made exactly same way, but grains I do cause the agar plates get used within 4-5 days, where these will go ......1-2 weeks....? thats only 3 tbs BR, so maybe a week?
BR:
Agar
Question: about peat moss. I live in the city and own a bike. The closest thing to a chain I have is a 35 min bike ride to get peat/jiffy from home depot/target/etc. the local pet store has peat moss in a gallon zip lock bag (I guess the guy bags it himself..?) it literally looks like green moss. can I use this to case the little grain jars (with verm, pasteurized) or should I go for the gold? (just don't wanna bike a big bag of peat/jiffy back home, but I will if I have to)
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A few thoughts on cultivation
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mushrume man
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19218586 - 12/02/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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So I just got done making eight agar pp5s. And one pp5 of distilled water for myc suspension.
My first attempt at scraping myc from agar was a bit clumsy. I did end up w some floating in the water but it was chunky so I shook it hard and it eventually sprayed water all across my walls and floor. Just a warning to everyone these things CAN leak.
Not sure if my suspensions soiled but I will test it w a dish I just made
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19218703 - 12/02/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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good report.
its a learning curve with PP5.
for most all purposes, PP5 is considered " no shake"
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blindingleaf
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19218717 - 12/02/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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can't u just drop an agar wedge into the pp5 of water or do u have to scrape the myc off? or maybe let the pp5 grow out a bit, squirt in some clean water, swish it around to get the myc off the agar, then suck up again to use/store?
I've only done an LC once, and all I did was drop a single grain from a 100% WBS jar into honey water that was PC'd. u probably have done it way more than me, but thats my idea/experience.
now that I said that...I just had an idea/question...
what if u used the PP5 agar and let it grow out 75%. then put X amount of sterilized water in, say 50 ml. can that be used continuously until the 50 ml is gone? meaning each time u want to use the water to noc up a jar, just swoosh it around till some myc is floating, then get 2-4 cc's out then put back and do again when u wanna noc up more jars later (so if u had 50ml and used 2ml for each innoc. u could theoretically use it 25 times)? will the solidified agar at the bottom act as a (delayed?) nutrient base and keep the myc growing or will this idea just not work at all? so I guess Im asking, could the violet PP5 agar petris be used/converted into an LC/suspended myc container? like I said LC's are very foreign to me, so I haven't done much reading on them.
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19218729 - 12/02/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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lets see what violet says on this topic.
i use polycarbonate at that phase of ops for slurry.
i dont want to wander to far .
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19218732 - 12/02/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blindingleaf said:
or maybe let the pp5 grow out a bit, squirt in some clean water, swish it around to get the myc off the agar, then suck up again to use/store?
I did this a year or so ago. Not sure how reliable it is overall but I got clean growth with mine. It actually picked up some of the nutes and green tint from my colored agar and actually colonized the syringe quite thick.
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mushrume man
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19227087 - 12/04/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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All but one of my agar dishes liquified, there was some boilover in the PC as well.
Half gram agar and malt each mixed w colonized grain soak water ~25ml.
I loaded the 921 w rings on bottom then trivet. Eight containers lids cracked and one more w 250ml water for suspension. Rings around the sides too. Water level was slightly above trivet maybe an inch deep or so.
What's the deal here? I'm planning another run ASAP
Thanks
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19228706 - 12/04/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Regardless of your conainer, agar boiling over means that the pressure isn't keeping down the boil at a given temperature. Blowing off steam after the run will cause an agar catastrophe. The rocker shaking and releasing pressure for even just a moment can send the agar up to a boil.
I never get boil-overs or anything like you described, but if I blew off the cooker's steam or shook it around at pressure you bet I would.
To see how quickly agar can boil over, just boil a little bit in the microwave....
Having it under pressure keeps it at a simmer, but dropping the pressure without dropping the temperature will allow boil-over.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19229215 - 12/04/13 10:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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So my first Violet tek In Vitros are running using Brown Rice. I see growth in my Albino PE hybrid, but nothing yet in my Pan. Cyans. Hoping the Pan. doesn't go bust. Looking forward to cloning and isolating with my Brown Rice Water Agar.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19229266 - 12/04/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It'll be interesting to see if different Panaeolus grow from straight grains, particularly ones like rice. I have high hopes for ones like Cinctulus growing on straight grass seed under bio-active casing, but not as much for others particularly on the likes of rice.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19230167 - 12/05/13 07:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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@mushrume man
Check out the Tek in my sig "Willsolvem's Convert your walmart PC to a autoclave tek"
I had the same boil over problem..
Good luck
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19232933 - 12/05/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so here are some pics. I used pasty's pp5 method and lid mod with grains, BR and wheat. there is growth. innoced with agar. Wheat maybe a bit too dry to be able to reach full colonization, but have high hopes for the BR
I also picked up some of Violets preferred PP5 and did some BR prep. u can see, this BR is MUCH more saturated than the little PP5 above. it seemed way too wet an environment after PC, so I waited 2 days will some moisture cleared up, and just inoculated today (3 of them, about 1 cup prepared BR each) with an agar wedge. Violet, do u think this BR looks a bit too moist? when I shake it, 90% of the rice is a cake that does not separate, but there is very little starchy smear on the sides of the container, which I took as a good thing. The BR above I feel is perfect, if a little UNDER done. when I shake that it is like a WBS shake.
we will see I guess, I have the lids a LITTLE twist loose for GE...does that sound ok or no?
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A few thoughts on cultivation
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BigGreenMat
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19234392 - 12/05/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I was worried you might say that. I haven't run into a lot of advice on Pan growing conditions so I figured it wouldn't hurt to use a couple CC's to experiment. I am holding out hope for some growth even if not to fruiting stage (I was planing on casing). The general page for Pans said they spawn to grain.
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WillSolvem
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19235381 - 12/06/13 07:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nothing new really to report, everything looks good, moisture content, colonization, and contam free
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anne halonium
jaguarette
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Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19235488 - 12/06/13 08:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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if i remember correctly,
one of our peeps, pulled off a pan grow on another forum with v-tek.
and of course, mexicanas have been v- tekked.
even though i take a dim view on turdage,
it may be required for some species.
v-tek turd mods, may work for those species.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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I have fruited the goliath strain of pan off strain grain, rice being a grain I don't see why it wouldn't work with brown rice, you do have to case so may I make the suggestion to sprinkle some moist (but not wet) vermiculite over the brown rice before sterilizing. Any mycelium from an LC or wedge will reach the brown rice, spores too. They (pans) don't like a thick casing so less is more. I have successfully fruited goliath in vitro in half gallon glass mason jars, but I used hpoo not brown rice but IMO it should work. Good luck and keep us posted
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BigGreenMat
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19246026 - 12/08/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think I see the first tiny signs of growth in the pan in vitro! The albino pe is way further along. Pans are generally slower right? It is hardcore cold here so my conditions are a bit cooler than optimal. I am keeping the place just below 70 so at best they are experiencing just above 70.
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WillSolvem
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19246235 - 12/08/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BigGreenMat said:
I think I see the first tiny signs of growth in the pan in vitro! The albino pe is way further along. Pans are generally slower right? It is hardcore cold here so my conditions are a bit cooler than optimal. I am keeping the place just below 70 so at best they are experiencing just above 70.
No pans colonize fast, they have a lighter, more grayish look to the mycelium than cubes and is often thought to be cobweb mold initially, and pan mycelium has a smell that is very very unique, thought I should mention that
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StickyIcky Fingers
Free DOOM!! Available Here
Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 178
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19246389 - 12/08/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I loosened the lid a bit on an overloaded petri(around 250ml of seed in it) yesterday. I'll see how this turns out I'm hoping to use this as a stealthy neglect grow.
I like the flash boil prep and grain water agar thanks violet.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Many of my isolated clone cultures are raring with pins on agar.
   
This agar is especially firm, making its water harder to access, yet still!
I'm particularly excited about trying some of these strains for agar-only grows...!
Some preliminary culture tests on rice are starting to pin and showing very nice behaviors.
As expected, every single culture I have isolated is a fruiting strain.
Since I knew I would have no contaminations, and am familiar with making decent invitro conditions with loose lids, I only agar inoculated 1 container of shallow rice for each isolate culture to test.
A few days after fully colonized, each container had lids loosened the same amount to give them the same conditions.
This has allowed to see me how quickly the different strains would pin in the same conditions, and will allow me to see a little bit into their type of behaviors.
However the "first flushes" have been and will be somewhat uneven and likely to "sidepin" at the plastic, so especially since they're limited on water and very shallow with wide exposure, I'm more interested in seeing what will happen for the "second flush" once the grain cake is no longer networked to the container sides and the bottom/side environment is blocked by bottom-watering. Once that shallow cake is 'floating' on its own and the mycelium have no choice but to pin from the exposed area, Then we will see how hardy they are for such a condition and how well they'll draw bottom water into a larger yield!
Since new cakes have limited water on hand for first flush, due to the lighter amount of water grains must hold to be colonized and due to water loss during colonization and before the flush, I am pretty sure 2nd flushes will be larger than 1st.
Oh! Also:
Almost 3 months from inoculation, the invitro rice pucks pictured flushing in the tek are STILL putting up fruits despite total neglect of water and soso ambient room light.
I've gotten biological efficiencies ranging from 250% to 400% - and those pucks were multi-spore! Goes to show that the same substrate potential will yield more when more divided into smaller intervals (as long as the smaller intervals are fully successful grows too of course)... not that we didn't already know this from Stamets and others.
So I think it's about time to talk biological efficiency. Today I'll be filling that post out at the end of the grow tech.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19274482 - 12/14/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice job, 400%-B.E. is impressive
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19279941 - 12/15/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Today I noticed in 4/6 of the containers although none are fully colonized I'm observing allot of knot forming. Roughly 80 per cm2! The following picture was the best I could do for taking pictures of knots but doesn't do it justice. I have never seen such tight knot formation
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oxana
i am the fun guy
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19282178 - 12/16/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so i made some ziplock petri dishes and i have a lot of condensation on the sides and top im wondering if others have this problem. im wondering if this could be agar related. i have asian food store agar, im gonna look into professional agar
also i just started making 5quart spawn bags with grass seed. so time effective.
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mushrume man
Sadis Factory
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: oxana]
#19282354 - 12/16/13 03:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I also had a lot of condensation in my PP5 agar dishes, one has about a TBS of loose water, other not as bad.
I'm leaving them to sit at about 72* for a week to see if that'll help. I think its just a thing PP5s do, it's like plastic in the dishwasher.
It doesn't hold enough heat to dissipate the water? I will probably dump it while in SAB
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19282578 - 12/16/13 06:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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yea I have dumped it in SAB before as well, same thing here with H20 on sides. Didn't think it was a problem (the excess water) till one time after a transfer, I went to do next containers, and noticed as I moved the one I had just put a wedge into, the wedge kept sliding around on surface of agar... "WTF!!" I thought, so I turned it on its side and a couple drops came out, no biggie, plate grew out like normal.
--------------------
A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man] 1
#19282597 - 12/16/13 06:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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To stop condensation in either agar or grain.
First condensation occurs only in the cool side of things where they're is moisture already present. So if your media (agar, grains, ect) has a temp around 75°f but an air temp of 70°f you will have condensation. To remedy try increasing the air temp around the media, remember that with increased temp you will have increased evaporation
Second properly hydrated media is key, take agar for example, after you pour hot agar it continues to out-gas for several hours even after cool (don't believe me, just sit a hot agar dish on a scale and record it's weight over a few hours). To remedy this I (personally) will mix, heat, and pre-pour my agar into dishes, let cool and to firm up, then sterilize. Let the autoclave completely cool before opening. With grains I make sure they are room temperature before putting lids on and sterilizing.
Hope this helps
Edited by WillSolvem (12/16/13 06:34 AM)
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oxana
i am the fun guy
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19284418 - 12/16/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
WillSolvem said:
To stop condensation in either agar or grain.
First condensation occurs only in the cool side of things where they're is moisture already present. So if your media (agar, grains, ect) has a temp around 75°f but an air temp of 70°f you will have condensation. To remedy try increasing the air temp around the media, remember that with increased temp you will have increased evaporation
Second properly hydrated media is key, take agar for example, after you pour hot agar it continues to out-gas for several hours even after cool (don't believe me, just sit a hot agar dish on a scale and record it's weight over a few hours). To remedy this I (personally) will mix, heat, and pre-pour my agar into dishes, let cool and to firm up, then sterilize. Let the autoclave completely cool before opening. With grains I make sure they are room temperature before putting lids on and sterilizing.
Hope this helps
thanks ill try that
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: oxana]
#19300510 - 12/19/13 11:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey Violet, I have a question for you about your in vitro tek. I have 2 of the Quart containers fully colonized for almost a week now. How do you sterilely bottom water? I have some autoclaved tap water. Should I just try to do it sterily my best in an SAB or should they pin and fruit without watering at first so I can get my first pins out?
Also as an update. I have VERY little growth from the Pan Cyan. Seems to not like straight brown rice... I am considering taking one of the colonized grains and moving to an agar plate to see if that will move things along. In another thread I was told that Pan Cyan should pretty easily colonize grain and only needs to be cased or spawned with poo. Maybe I just have some bad spores/genetics.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19303465 - 12/20/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Don't water until after the 1st flush. The cakes may not have enough water for a full-size 1st flush, particularly the extra-shallow cake dishes, but that's kindof the point of the tek as well.
You don't have to water them sterile. It could only help to do so if you intend to continue having totally clean clones or prints to take after the 1st flush. Otherwise it's nearly pointless to use sterile water to water as clean procedure!
"In another thread I was told that Pan Cyan should pretty easily colonize grain and only needs to be cased or spawned with poo."
It's interesting how some pieces of information hold to be both very true and quite untrue depending on the context and how the statement is taken.
Nobody can convince me that the different grains are just the same to mycelium, especially to the more picky mycelium. All these species can grow on grains not because all of them are natural substrates but because of similarities to their natural substrates. Mycelium can colonize brown rice and rye seeds because of their similarities to the grains of other grasses.
It makes good sense to me that you could have better luck with Panaeolus using grass seed than brown rice. You should be able to get Pan mycelium to grow over anything once up and rolling... but perhaps you'll find better culture luck starting with new spores on grass seed, grass seed agar, or dirt agar (+gs water) as germ media.
Combined with that, I feel that it's moreso the Casing that helps Paneolus, less so a substrate "requirement". If grass seed and casing fulfills the needs, then the "benefit" of using poo is overrated. I've definitely seen many great Pan grows that use very little poo in the sub mixture.
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19303500 - 12/20/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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On a side note (pun intended).... I'm starting to get pretty fed-up with straight grains invitro.
They don't easily seem to pin where I want them to on uncased grain cakes, and although this has been a tiny bother it has been extremely educational.
I've learned that Cubensis does not want to fruit from highly-nutritious spots if it can avoid it!
So many of the pins from my single invitro culture tests formed up on the side of the plastic container instead of from the rice cakes themselves, and when they formed on the cake it was usually on the side/bottom in the "microclimate" despite the invitro container retaining humidity well so the whole container is a good climate.
It was confusing seeing only the extremes of "courage" and "cowardice" both coming from every one of my many isolated cultures... but my experiments with Anne Halonium's pom tek shed some special light on this for me. This behavior is instead the ideal fruiting behavior when a low- or no-nutrition pinning surface area is provided.
I believe this offers a greater perspective on side-pinning.
Pinning seems much more likely and numerous at "barriers", regardless of even if the mycelium just got there! Mycelium doesn't necessarily want to fruit from where it first started colonizing if it's not a great place for it. Almost every one of my clones from "grain petris" were taken from the most recently colonized edge of the shallow cakes, from mycelium that was only a week-ish old!
It's well known that "the #1 pinning trigger is full colonization of substrate." But I think this is not exactly as it reads, but rather we think of it this way almost entirely just because of how we come at cultivation, since we put the mycelium in a "box" of conditions so-to-speak.
Some curve balls in cultivation show us that it's not quite as said:
  
They're pinning exclusively at the edge of where they have not colonized!
Also, all of my "pom" grows pin Far more from the scrubbies which are expended of nutrition shorty after colonized, fed by migrating water and nutrition from the nutrient-rich grainwater slurry below.
This is why I think grain cakes benefit so hugely from a casing layer. It's a sort of low-nutrition "barrier" that allows the mycelium to fruit away from their nutritive source. It's not JUST for moisture retainance, and not JUST for creating an ideal microclimate, but about giving Cubensis a low-nutrition site on which it will love to pin, instead of forcing it to pick the best of the worst fruit sites on the sides of highly-nutritious cakes.
And it sure matches my experience. Using a casing layer seems almost like a magic trick for getting Cubensis to fruit fully from straight-grains in fruiting conditions. Otherwise they seem much more likely to "do nothing", despite all the potential of the highly-nutritious substrate they're on!
Don't anybody ever tell me again that Cubensis doesn't "need" or even really "benefit" from a casing layer. It does.
Such a difference may not so visibly manifest with "bulk subs" because they're much more nutrient dilute, but this is not an "advantage" to bulk substrates but another example of how the use of bulk substrates hazes myco perceptibility.
A casing layer, or other provided nutritionally-dilute fruiting surface, has Huge benefits for Cubensis particularly and especially on substrates packing lots of nutritive potential. It directs what we have thought is the desire to "side-pin" towards our intended fruiting surface, and seems to 'unlock' the full fruiting potential of all that dense nutrition, whereas otherwise results may seem pathetic and extra-slow while also annoyingly coming mostly from the sides since the mycelium cannot find a location to fruit that best suits their preference.
Large yield is made possible not only with lots of nutrition but by providing an ideal fruiting surface away from the nutrition source for that nutrition to be used. A cake with large nutrition can still easily have shitty yield if the two are not brought together.
So, to bring this full-circle... I suggest using casing layers even growing full half-pint cakes invitro, with extra-loose lid!
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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (12/20/13 03:38 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19303640 - 12/20/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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hmmm.......
some of that stuff has me perplexed violet.
normally i see very few side pins.
usually i case. but not always.
  
even when i dont..........
keep in mind, LED lighting is highly directional
and these are all LED pinsets.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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From what i have seen cubensis and pans tend to pin from the sides of the substrates in nature and on a sub indoors you can only get a good top pinset if you deny all other avenues for pin formation. If you allow side pins to get a foothold it seems that the culture will pour all its energy into those spots to the detriment of other seemingly viable options regardless of the conditions.
If you ever see people fruiting bulk cakes or brf cakes, most of the pins form from the sides despite te fact that the verm or casing application is usually better on top. I do have some experiments planned down the road to test this further.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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That's great Anne but it hasn't worked out for me like that, even with the cultures that have turned out to be best so far.
I didn't get (m)any photos of the first pinset which had many pins from the rhizo networks on the plastic, but this is in effect what I almost always get:
None on the bare surface of the grain itself.
Even in the seemingly best of invitro conditions.
 
More pins from this wedge stuck on the side of the plastic than from the rest of the cake put together:
I find that particularly telling about fruiting preferences, nutritional dilution, and agar growing ;]
It's not that I'm not getting full yields and efficiency after all flushes... Because I am, still the best I've seen even multi-spore.
It's just that those yields come almost exclusively from the edges of the cakes. Not really a problem with the smaller invitros like 'grain petris', but a pain-in-the-ass for full sized ones, and in some instances the reduced total fruiting has effected yield.
Yet the same behavior on Poms is actually a Great thing and is one of the biggest advantages of Poms I've seen yet.
I'm becoming a full-on Pom convert. Damn it works so well.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (12/21/13 05:25 PM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19308771 - 12/21/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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shhhh.
poms, youll spark WW3........
i am sorta baffled at the side pin thing though.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Pins!! I'll be back in a few with the porn
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19316095 - 12/23/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
WillSolvem said:
Pins!! I'll be back in a few with the porn
rockin........
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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so i have a couple violet tek things going
(two middle containers will be addressed below, as for the coffee filters on jars, they are a dust buffer, there are SFD's hiding underneath, just in case someone was about to chime in with a "YOU USE COFFEE FILTERS!?!?! i have 2 cats and a dog, plus i smoke in adjacent room, so a lot of dust is generated)
some are "grain petris" and 3 are filled with whole BR, and plan was to use as spawn. so i guess i used violets PP5 method and her BR prep method in the case of these 3 containers. problem with these was I over saturated the BR. innoc'd with agar wedge, and growth was going, just slow because of excess moisture.
so just now, i could not help myself and shook 2 of the three containers that look like the one above. i know violet tek is not a shake needed tek, but i have many grain jars going, so if it didn't work I have more than enough to keep me busy. my goal was to spread colonized grains around and increase colonization speed as well as maybe better distribute the excess moisture around grains and walls of PP5. but the most curious thing happened, 1 min after i shook i looked up and saw blue!!! never has this happened to me
a chill went down my spine at first because i though there was a contam hiding on inside and the shake dispersed it, but its just super blue now....anyone else had this happen? is it because the grain is so soft that it is easy to bruise?
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19317736 - 12/23/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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they will do that sometimes.
especially if ya used ferts.
the big thing with shaking PP5, is that because they are "soft"
shaking changes air pressure in them, and if your not under best conditions......bacteria.
as far as water? sterile water is harmless.
the poms prove your not gonna drown your mycelia,
and the airflow/ FAE is more forgiving in PP5 .
therefore, water is not an issue.
if ya cooked em right in PC, and had a clean innoc.
water will affect nothing.
over all, looks good though.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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hmmm...well like my post said, the jars and PP5's share a room with a dog and 2 cats...hopefully the shake will not breed bacteria if it did indeed change the air pressure. if it did its ok, i have one more BR that was not shaken, as well as several that are only 1 inch high, like the grain petri tek. i actually just nocced up three more with an lc started with agar. anyone have a pic of an agar petri with myc AND bacteria? i've been having some bacteria problems in my regular glass quarts, even with SFD's, and its either because my WBS was not PC'd long enough or there was an unseen bacteria on my plate. my sterile technique is fine because all of my agar work is clean (unless there is some very translucent bacteria I'm not seeing, thats why i think its the PC time for WBS-just 60 min). another thing that makes me think its PC time is the 3 jars that did get bacteria colonized to 80% and then the last 20 had no growth and the tell tale slimy/wet grains against the jar wall. just switched to rye though, i like it better just cause i'm bad at getting WBS moisture correct even with 24 hr soak/10 min simmer. they are either too dry or burst. I've done it with success before, all my grows have used WBS, but now that I'm starting more and more jars, i didn't want to have 1/10 fall to bacteria. bad side is price of rye...luckily my friend works at whole foods, so the 20% discount helps, but still not close to price per lb of WBS.
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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J. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.
Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19318621 - 12/23/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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thought i'd throw some pics of my work on this thread, for giggles.
  
my first MS inoculations on agar, transferred to grain petri a week ago. kept the jars to see if they'd contaminate, as i felt like i really bungled the process. look good to me so far.
      
next are the grain jars to which the samples were transferred. moving right along. the last two are the same jar. they look so scattered because that's the jar i had problem with. couldn't get the wedge to let go of the salpel, flung it across the jar, stuck to the side, had to dig and dig and dig to pick it up and put it in the middle. such a noob.
      
finally, MS direct to rice made at the same time as the agar above. watching these progress has been absolutely beautiful. i'm loving this mycology thing. three jars originally, one lost to trich i think. tiny green dot, out it went.
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the j stands for jesus.2020 new years grow along
Edited by J. Jack Flash (12/23/13 10:07 PM)
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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awesome JJ! haha i still get the agar stuck to the scalpel, its annoying!
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A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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ok JJ looks good to me.............
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Quote:
J. Jack Flash said:
couldn't get the wedge to let go of the salpel, flung it across the jar, stuck to the side, had to dig and dig and dig to pick it up and put it in the middle. such a noob.
You will find at a pet supply store those reptile heating pads, buy the smallest one and tape to the underside of your SAB. When setting up for agar work plug it in, set up your SAB but place your scalpel over the area with the heat pad underneath, by the time it's closed, sanitised, and got your gloves through you have a nice warm blade for agar to slide right off.
Like a warm knife through butter 
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19321975 - 12/24/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Two of the containers started pinning so I decided to take clones
This one I'm calling Santa
And this one Fatboy
Sorry I had compress the rest of the photos, getting close to my weekly upload limit
Santa
Fatboy
Fatboy was actually sooo big I had to stab it with the tweezers to remove it!
I will keep you all posted while I grow out these two strains
Merry Christmas Everybody
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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oxana
i am the fun guy
Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 258
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19324062 - 12/25/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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so im looking to isolate and test out some new strains to be used in monos.
im wondering if i fruit an isolated strain on several brown rice pucks and they do well on brown rice, will this be a pretty good indicator that this strain will also do well on coir/verm/grass seed?
it seems like a much easier path to take then to waste limited monotub space on strains that are not proven to provide high yields and other positive factors.
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J. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.
Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: oxana]
#19324333 - 12/25/13 03:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'm not experienced enough to answer the question definitively, but can say for certain that this is what i'm counting on. also, it's pretty much my understanding of the whole point of this approach... that is, to draw out and test isolated Strains using as little time and as few resources as possible.
thus achieved, you're ready to improve the world with whatever larger scale cultivation method you desire.
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the j stands for jesus.2020 new years grow along
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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--------------------
AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: oxana]
#19324751 - 12/25/13 08:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxana said:
so im looking to isolate and test out some new strains to be used in monos.
im wondering if i fruit an isolated strain on several brown rice pucks and they do well on brown rice, will this be a pretty good indicator that this strain will also do well on coir/verm/grass seed?
it seems like a much easier path to take then to waste limited monotub space on strains that are not proven to provide high yields and other positive factors.
kinda strikes me like test driving sports cars,
cuz you wanna drive the best school bus ya can.
think about it, developing strains on a high BE system,
so ya can switch to a lower BE?
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J. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.
Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
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i'm puzzled by this biological efficiency concept applied to our work.
http://www.fanaticus.com/ripsnort.htm
Quote:
Biological Efficiency is a term frequently used in the mushroom industry to describe yield potentials of mushrooms from various agricultural by-products (straw, sawdust, sugar cane bagasse, banana fonds and coffee plant wastes, to name a few). This formula was first developed by the Button mushroom (Agaricus) industry.
this means to me that commercial farmers looking to grow the best they can need to choose which agricultural waste product to collect tons of in order to make a viable business out of selling $3.99/lb salad fodder. seems like to the average hobbyist, biological efficiency isn't so meaningful. i mean the materials are super cheap, right? and it all goes back to the earth one way or another, assuming it doesn't go to the landfill.
no disrespect. so if someone already used to using one method of growing likes that method enough to stick with it, what's wrong with that? different strokes, man.
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the j stands for jesus.2020 new years grow along
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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one can grow.
or,
one can use half the effort,
half the supplies,
half the energy , and grow double.
skill,equip, and BE is the key.
i demand a power grow fast and plenty.
i dont have the time to slave in the lab.
fact is urban growers, who demand scale grows,
need advanced teks and equip.
space, heat, power, odors , time,
speed and mobility count to the urban uber grower.
if i was forced to use the old teks,
it would essentially disable my entire op.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/25/13 09:59 AM)
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bluecap
mychanical
Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 286
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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I really give you kudos for the sanitation.i also agree with your clean working inviro and such... but I like more of a harvest myself. grain to bulk, will blow your tek,s yield, out of the water imho...I use plastics myself too. but , I think your getting too anal about it. this is fine for agar or cloning. but as far as yield....seems like a waste of time to me...ya I know about biologic efficiency and such, but really?....
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I wish I was a grain of sand, layin in a babies hand...fallin like a diamond chain into the ocean... A willow tree is strong enough to bend, never like the oak who lives in fear of a wind....Gamma...    
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Doc Seta
Sinister Das Trip Sober
Registered: 12/18/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Tunafish, Ocean
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: bluecap]
#19325218 - 12/25/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Props to Violet this hobby is all about experimentation
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: bluecap]
#19325238 - 12/25/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Jack,
But the BE understanding applies to all mushroom food and all yield, not just the ingredients you have listed.
BE calculations figure for Grain too of course, which is far from free.
And we all grow on grains... they're the heart of all our grows.
So having a stronger bio efficiency means more for our money - money on grain, on energy, on space, and on time.
Quote:
bluecap said:
... but I like more of a harvest myself. grain to bulk, will blow your tek,s yield, out of the water imho... this is fine for agar or cloning. but as far as yield....seems like a waste of time to me...ya I know about biologic efficiency and such, but really?....
Yeah, really.
I suppose I can only explain this by pointing out your misperception.
You seem to be basing your belief about yield based on the idea that seven quarts of grain in a wet pile of coir will yield more than one quart of grain spread out in four to eight cups.
DUH. It used 7 times the grain.
But will it yield 7 times as much, by the time all have spent and contam'd?
THAT is the important question.
So I ask: when the grain used is the same, what makes you believe that a different method of watering changes the yield capability of that grain? That would be ignorant.
7 quarts of prepped grain yields more for me spread in 16-35 bottom-watered cups (depending on if 'grain petris' or full grow) than destroyed and mixed into one monster block of low-nutrition watermass.
The reasons why are well-known around here. Failure to understand doesn't change the facts.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (12/25/13 11:35 AM)
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: bluecap]
#19325240 - 12/25/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluecap said:
but as far as yield....
i did bulks all thru the 80s' up to kiddie pool size.
ya they put out boomers.
now i get more from way less energy and supplies.
and the quality is better.
WBR, has shown the highest recorded power levels.
i suspect strongly, RGS is close to that also.
seriously, id retire before i returned to bulks.
the yield, power, and effort/ energy equation,
its not worth it to me any longer.
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Doc Seta
Sinister Das Trip Sober
Registered: 12/18/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Tunafish, Ocean
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Doc Seta]
#19325265 - 12/25/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc Seta said:
exactly.
i find it comically ironic,
the best v-tek converts, have done bulks before also.
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Doc Seta
Sinister Das Trip Sober
Registered: 12/18/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Tunafish, Ocean
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
bluecap said:
but as far as yield....
i did bulks all thru the 80s' up to kiddie pool size.
ya they put out boomers.
now i get more from way less energy and supplies.
and the quality is better.
WBR, has shown the highest recorded power levels.
i suspect strongly, RGS is close to that also.
seriously, id retire before i returned to bulks.
the yield, power, and effort/ energy equation,
its not worth it to me any longer.
Nice page just got done viewing it
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bluecap
mychanical
Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 286
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19325286 - 12/25/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I get it. but I don't do monotubs. just 2 jars of grain to 2 jars of sub.(coir,verm) in plastic, for my substrates. I guess your tek, is just too fastidious for me. not trying to down you at all.this print tek is the best ive seen in my years of growing... of course contams are an issue with either pp5 or fgfc, after 5 flushes. but the yields are bigger. because I,m using more substrate and spawn... keep on keepin on there. just my 2 cents...just my opinion. everyone has their own methodologies and preferred methods. I respect your opinions... hook line and sinker, as far as biting...LOL
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I wish I was a grain of sand, layin in a babies hand...fallin like a diamond chain into the ocean... A willow tree is strong enough to bend, never like the oak who lives in fear of a wind....Gamma...
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: bluecap]
#19325379 - 12/25/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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keep in mind, v-tek "as presented",
is not exactly what i do.
note the pic.
polycarbonate culture flasks for fert BRF agar,
are made wholesale assembly line in 250ml and .5 litre sizes.
and inoc with MS........
fert agar, pins easily, clones are apparent fast.
clones are selected with long tweezers,
and transferred to more polycarb flasks.
flasks of water are then prepped for 30 min PC, and cooled.
sterile water is added to the polycarbs and shaken.
instant 1/2 liter of clone slurry.
we then start slinging large heavy bore syringes.
at PP5's
all this done assembly line style , goes very fast.
done right, contams are super low.
now, yes you can use PP5's for agar work and such.
and it works good......
however, its not nearly as fast for scale ops, as some of the mods like above.
v tek, done as presented, is a fantastic tek.
with mods, its a tek on steroids.
i suggest mastering the basic v-tek as violet presents it.
then , scale up with the mods.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/25/13 12:18 PM)
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: bluecap]
#19325441 - 12/25/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i am using the v tek because i think it is interesting way to approach the hobby, because the hobby is indeed itself interesting, and this is a way to test spores, semi isolate, isolates, different grains, mediums, etc in a small efficient way. i am using the bulk teks as well to get a lot at once for my friends and i. i enjoy growing mushrooms and mycology in general. its really up to the person and their life's circumstances and mycological goals to decide which way to go.
let me expand...while the BE may be higher with these grows, it does not make them suitable for everyone here, and I mean this with no disrespect at all, because I value the info u (violet) have given me and the ppl here and admire the tenaciousness of ur arguments. some ppl want/need to grow a lot at one time, hence going to bulk is easier to get a good harvest at once, then clean up and move, or clean up and forget about growing for a while, because they do not want to or actually can not keep waiting for more and more flushes to take advantage of the full BE of these grains petris. there is nothing wrong with this method, just as there is nothing wrong with v tek method. several ways to skin a cat right? it comes down to what u r gonna do with that cat, and if u need that cat skinned by next week or next month. bulk style and "grain petri/v tek" style have advantages and disadvantages, all depending on how the person approaches the grow... are they a hobbyist? a drug dealer? a guy who is moving out of his apt next month? a startup for edibles? etc.
there will always be this argument of BE, and i read more and more about it, but some don't care or if they care don't have the patience or life situation to take advantage of it, just like some don't care about huge initial harvests with bulk or the living situation that allows it to occur.
...again, this posts intention is not to disrespect either BE style or bulk style, and i encourage both sides to keep going with this stuff (teks, grow logs, pics, etc) its interesting and well written, and helps the OMC go further and further.
ps..violet u never responded to my PM last week!! I know ur on here! haha, i know it was a lot of questions, but....? what gives?!?! if u have little time, no worries.
--------------------
A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19325493 - 12/25/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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truthfully, in 35 yrs ive tried all styles extensively in phases,
just to keep from falling over in stoned boredom.
my bulks come out great.
if i lived on a ranch in kansas and could snag turds ,
boil em up in a barrel, and fry em under a tube light array,
corn mason quarts gleaming and all, id do it.
especially if i could bill it all to the host farm!
fact is, im a downtown beach tower girl, and have a life.
how the hell am i gonna get a scale barn grow past my door man?
for real, am i suppossed to get the maid to distract him while we run carts of shit and bales of straw up the freight elevator?.
i live in the tropics, waterfront. 3rd floor.
ill just put the pasturization barrel on the balcony.
hmm hallway stinks like boiling spawn.
masons rattling all hours.
discolored carpet.
neighbors wheezing from trich outbursts.
tube lights baking..........
IR on the tower. lol
strange sounds and visitors late at night............
oooooo, spooky, and no its not halloween ,
its bulk at the boardwalk towers!
reality peeps, bulkers methods collapse in dense urban areas.
and it gets worse to scale.
fortunately,
v -tek, is for scale growers downtown, who dont take "no" for an answer, and demand performance, in the power grow.
peeps in kansas? merry xmas, gas the bucket loader up on me.
peeps in the city? we have different agenda.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/25/13 01:09 PM)
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Aero
Orea
Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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ah yea urban life..
i just imagine my housemates faces if i would be pasteurizing hpoo down at kitchen..
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SPREAD THE SPORES 
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Aero]
#19325538 - 12/25/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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when one needs scale and performance .......city style.
its ironic, the rural peeps could do v-tek, if they choose easily.
where as its almost abusive, to suggest city peeps use only rural methods.
v-tek, would be the more universal and democratic tek to all.
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mushrume man
Sadis Factory
Registered: 11/18/08
Posts: 375
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19325569 - 12/25/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ha Anne I have the same torch you do! That looks like a great setup for cloning, might have to pick up some culture bottles afterall...
Got to get me some of those glass syringes also
I may not be urban, but I still feel weird carrying 40 lbs of WBS, boxes of jars and 6 totes in my house.
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Aero
Orea
Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19325580 - 12/25/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i use similar jars for agar work, zero contam by using a glovebox
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SPREAD THE SPORES
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: mushrume man]
#19325597 - 12/25/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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supply raids are an issue also.
supplies should appear like ninja magic, be minimal,
have low waste profile,
be silent , odorless, and hide-able for storage.
i always imagine " if leo was sleeping on my couch, would he wake up?"
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19325637 - 12/25/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxana said:
so im looking to isolate and test out some new strains to be used in monos.
im wondering if i fruit an isolated strain on several brown rice pucks and they do well on brown rice, will this be a pretty good indicator that this strain will also do well on coir/verm/grass seed?
it seems like a much easier path to take then to waste limited monotub space on strains that are not proven to provide high yields and other positive factors.
There's no reason one couldn't use a method like this to micro-size powerful culturing and leaving full growouts to monos if one really wants to.
A culture found this way will definitely still do well on bulks, since the main core of the bulk substrate is still grain. The substrate is indeed consumed but it's nutrition is really of little consequence, it's the watermass that we colonize it for. We can easily get mycelium to jump off grains onto things with NO nutrition to take advantage of water holding.
For sure this will allow clear selections of colonizing speed, fruiting speed, flush rate, and appearance.
It will also tell you much about what a culture can do. But to know for sure exactly what one will do on bulks it would still of course need a test on bulks.
____________________________________
blindingleaf, to your post I'll say this: the differences between the full-yield timeline of "bulk" flushing and straight-grain sustained flushing is not THAT dramatic. In some of the scenarios you mentioned I'd say it would be uncalled for to do EITHER or ANY growing, and in the others I'd say that the so-called "advantages" of bulks aren't really advantages worth speaking of, whereas the advantages of my style of grows are assured regardless of the scenario.
You made one half-decent point: Some may not be patient enough to wait for full flushing from watered straight-grain.
That's not something to Pander to, though! That doesn't make any grow tech "advantageous"!
Such a concept relies on the disadvantage of impatience making the disadvantages of bulks seemingly preferable, but that logic is spread too thin over a case attempting to be made to convince that 'bulk' watering is equal.
It's this simple: Impatience and mycology don't go together.
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
ps..violet u never responded to my PM last week!! I know ur on here! haha, i know it was a lot of questions, but....? what gives?!?! if u have little time, no worries.
I prefer to spend time and energy answering cultivation questions where more than one person will read them
So I'm sure you won't mind me pulling some of your message in here
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
Do u think that shaking grain jars, even once (@30,40,50% etc) would constitute the same thing as a transfer...meaning, do u feel like it leads to the strains degradation, like several G2G's would?
Yes, definitely... Not that it would manifest as a big deal unless done several times in the generation.
I almost never shake anything though, so for me, it's a moot point that's already settled.
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
If u had a PP5 of just agar, and it was fully colonized, what would happen if u dumped some PC'd grain on top? would it colonize upwards, and would this be a contamination risk?
If you had the working environment to pour sterilized grain into an agar dish, you could shake that grained-up dish around after closing it and mycelium would swipe off all over the grain, leading to quite a quick colonization time.
But if you're gonna sterilize all the grain, might as well take the agar to the grains instead...
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
For Rye and WBS, or BR for that matter, how long would u say to PC it for, if the PP5's were filled [over halfway]?
I know u said plastic transfer heat more quickly, and that 30-45 min would do, but is it the case with a PP5 filled that much? what about a quart sized PP5 filled 3/4 of the way? does the plastic allow heat to pass through that much easier?
Yes plastic transfers heat that much more quickly, but with larger substrate masses, more heat is required and more distance must be traveled to raise it.
I typically sterilize 3/4 loaded quart containers for 50-60 minutes, depending.
When preparing "masters" of grass seed for G2G, I sterilize even pints for 45 minutes, quarts for 65.
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
Do u have any suggestions for shiitaki PP5s, recipes, tek etc?
I use grainwater for All of the Many species I handle, including several Shiitakes and many Oyster species, and more!
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
I only have MEA powder at the moment from mycosupply, it has done me well so far. How important is it to change nutrients when doing agar work? is it necessary? what are the ramifications if this is not done?
I'm not much of a pro on this topic, and not many people on this forum really are either. But all I find it necessary to say is that I Never switch-up from grainwater agar, and that based on what I've read on the topic the point is to avoid selectivity which is not a problem towards grains.
I believe (and find) it to be needed to alternate media only when sugars one of the media being alternated between, to avoid laziness due to being used to the simplicity of sugars.
--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!
PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
• Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (12/25/13 01:54 PM)
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BigGreenMat
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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I am city folk and like the idea of vtek. Still working on good implementation. Have a sgfc but for larger grows I am going to test out 2 liter individual chambers as well. So much to play with!
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: BigGreenMat]
#19325746 - 12/25/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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thats sorta the point.
v-tek is great stuff,
but theres a bigger dynamic at play.
as peeps become more confident with the grow,
it enables one to see many containers, and sub types, and supply/ lighting and equip options.
when i started over 35 yrs ago , supply was different. there were limits in choices.
now there are endless options.
use em to win.
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invitro
Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
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 Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19327182 - 12/25/13 10:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see there is no mention of using coffee during your grain soak. I have to assume you've experimented with it and your not using it?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: invitro]
#19327937 - 12/26/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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u posted from a PM....i feel so violated! haha
like i said in my initial post, ur teks make great points, are well written, and ur passion for the technique is quite tenacious.
yes, patience and mycology don't go together. thats well understood, as anyone who reads the signatures of popular posters and Trusted Cultivators would know.
im not siding with bulk. I'm not siding with v tek.
I like this hobby because it is fascinating to me, and i try a lot of different things, like violet said ":to avoid sheer boredom"
i like v tek because a lot of different mediums can be experimented with on a small scale, then, then, like u said "There's no reason one couldn't use a method like this to micro-size powerful culturing and leaving full growouts to monos if one really wants to."
if i had to guess, i would say that a lot of ppl (including me) are utilizing ur tek as a "step 1" for their bulk grows. finding an ideal culture with grain petris, cloning, isolating, knocking up a master, g2g expand, then spawn to bulk.
i think a lot of ppl are also using ur tek (including me) to experiment with grains, mediums, environments, etc.
there are also many, i would guess, beginners who can utilize ur tek to start out in this hobby. materials are cheap, easy to find, inconspicuous, etc.
ur tek is a wonderful multipurpose tool, there is no question in my mind.
however i still stand by my last post, outlining the reasons ppl will either choose to or choose not to, utilize ur tek.
one of ur main points is that the BE is much higher with ur tek, and less materials can be used to produce more and better results. materials, cost money, and we should not have to break the bank to perform a proper grow. nor should we waste biological material because we have not utilized it properly. but...isn't time another "material" we are using? many cannot or do not have the time, like i said earlier, to wait for the full BE to unfold. this, however, does not necessarily imply one is impatient. i'd guess many of us have jobs, families, etc that don't allow us to properly maintain many many small containers of grain, bottom watering, harvesting, etc. we may only have a small window of opportunity to perform a grow, and we want that grow to perform well and have a high initial yield. time, in this sense, is just another material we need to take into account for our grows, and does not imply impatience, but rather a situation where proper planning is just as important as anything else. (just woke up, i hope i explained that right...)
again, i know i keep saying this, i love ur tek! but i equally love many bulk teks. there is value in both (for me at least)
we all have different life circumstances that must be taken into account when selecting a well written take to implement
--------------------
A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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anne halonium
jaguarette
Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: blindingleaf]
#19327978 - 12/26/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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if time is your big issue, then its all about v-tek.
one can do straight spore MS on assembly line containers,
and assuming 4-45 minit loads a day @ 8 containers each,
even for a few days........
at about the 25 day mark, you can start to bury a bulk container in boomers........
this tek was designed to be reliable and fast to scale.
fact is , alot of you act like ya have to do 1000 containers.
ya dont.
12 containers or so, equals the avg surface area of the typical tub.
low PC time, low prep time, fast innoc time, and no grow out then spawn then grow out.......
makes it WAY faster..............
i see it polar opposite, i dont have time for bulks.
my peeps find it bulk crops unnacceptable for power,
and the space , effort/ yield/ harvest ratio, is abysmal.
id seriously quit if i had to do bulks again.
it just would not be worth it to me.............experience .
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Got leap off for the two clones "Fatboy" and "Santa" I took on Christmas eve
Fatboy:
Santa:
I'll keep y'all updated
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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J. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.
Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: WillSolvem]
#19330235 - 12/26/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Looking good. 
This stuff makes me want a time lapse camera.
--------------------
the j stands for jesus.2020 new years grow along
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Doc Seta
Sinister Das Trip Sober
Registered: 12/18/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Tunafish, Ocean
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: invitro]
#19330369 - 12/26/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said:
I see there is no mention of using coffee during your grain soak. I have to assume you've experimented with it and your not using it?
Coffee actually is beneficial? , I know it does nothing for jars that Ive noticed thought that was a fad that went away a few years ago? As for the two people below they both have valid points and I think Blindingleaf is kinda spot on about us all having families , jobs ect. Most of us cant or do not have the time nor the extra money to spend on mass bulk grows, just want decent results with minimal amount of time wasted & cash. Alotta people on here don't have jobs , gf bf's ect, kids and have all the time of day to play the growing games & experiments. I try to keep it as simple as possible with max results. I do alotta casings so I go threw casing sub like crazy, money adds up so fast so one of things I don't have time to experiment with but I do like your tek Jaguarette.
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oxana
i am the fun guy
Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 258
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Culturing • GRAIN 'PETRI' TEK [Re: Violet]
#19331383 - 12/27/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Quote:
oxana said:
so im looking to isolate and test out some new strains to be used in monos.
im wondering if i fruit an isolated strain on several brown rice pucks and they do well on brown rice, will this be a pretty good indicator that this strain will also do well on coir/verm/grass seed?
it seems like a much easier path to take then to waste limited monotub space on strains that are not proven to provide high yields and other positive factors.
There's no reason one couldn't use a method like this to micro-size powerful culturing and leaving full growouts to monos if one really wants to.
A culture found this way will definitely still do well on bulks, since the main core of the bulk substrate is still grain. The substrate is indeed consumed but it's nutrition is really of little consequence, it's the watermass that we colonize it for. We can easily get mycelium to jump off grains onto things with NO nutrition to take advantage of water holding.
For sure this will allow clear selections of colonizing speed, fruiting speed, flush rate, and appearance.
It will also tell you much about what a culture can do. But to know for sure exactly what one will do on bulks it would still of course need a test on bulks.
thanks so much
i love your concept, it seems like such a great idea for testing new strains. im going to to run 6 containers of 10 different isolated strains and record the results.
unfortunately this would never work for me on a large scale, as i was able to find someone who would pressure cook 5 quart bags of rye grain spawn for $3.50 plus $1 for bag/ rye grain, and pasteurize 10 quart bags of coir/verm for $3 plus $1 for the materials.
just inoculate the grain spawn.colonize and dump it into a 30gallon bag along with the coir/verm packet, toss the ingrediants in the bag until its mixed right. dump bag into tray with liner, let colonize. pick two flushes, pull the contents out of the tub by its liner, dump it into my compost pile. only a tini bit of waste as i recycle/reuse my mixing bag and spawn/substrate bag.
i can get a
56pound bag of rye grains for $10
40pound bag of annual rye grass seed for $32( use it for my masters, thanks for that )
coarse vermiculite $17 4cu foot bag
coco coir $0.40pound( off a 2500lbs pallet)
perennial bulb crates $2.50 2.1 square feet
spawn bags $0.50 each (reuse at least 3 times)
substrate bags $0.04
i spend less than an hour growing a pound and i pay about $20 for a dry pound in costs not including my equiptment that lasts forever.
my grows are very green. the heat used to sterillize and pasteruize help heat a mans house, all bio "wastes" at the end become compost i use in my garden. occasionally i throw the liner away but i use very thin 18 micron painters plastic. so i am only throwing away a few grams of plastic
. no chemicals are used. when i have a fungas gnats i get them with nofly bioinsecticide, instead of a bomb.
Quote:
anne halonium said:
kinda strikes me like test driving sports cars,
cuz you wanna drive the best school bus ya can.
think about it, developing strains on a high BE system,
so ya can switch to a lower BE?
it more like loading a few sports cars onto my cargo ship
Edited by oxana (12/27/13 01:15 AM)
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