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Offlineblojo02184
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PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns
    #19033357 - 10/25/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Pmp tek.

Tote with bubble wandS, covered in 4-5" clay, lava rock, or perlite pebbles and 2.5-3'5" water.
Pumping in roughly 3 complete air exchanges an hour.
Evaporation happens in the 1.5" of media surface above water level and the air passing by it.

I'm going to build a pmp to magash tek, except I'm replacing the lid with a piece of tyvek, facing as if the inside of the tub would be the exterior of the house.
Tyvek is a moisture barrier, and if placed properly, would allow air exchanges and keep moisture inside of the terrarium.

Thoughts and concerns?
Action happening soon...


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19033364 - 10/25/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

many concerns


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19033392 - 10/25/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

... Like?


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19033428 - 10/25/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I apologize for my weak initial response.
It is too much work and seems like a breeding ground for contamination.
Monotubs and SGFCs work much better.
Try and stay away from overcomplicating things.
Make sure you are reading recent and relevant posts. no more than 2 years old.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17897163#17897163


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19033443 - 10/25/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like to think outside the box...
I understand low fae and humidity was the cause of the phasing out of magash's pmp tek.

My theory is that by allowing more air circulation through a water barrier would solve both issues...


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19033451 - 10/25/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

how can you argue against minimum 6 ounces first flush from one tub? (if not more)
automating never works.
i have never seen someone make it work better than a greenhouse or monotubs.
please correct me if im wrong.

from this point on i will not rain on your parade if you want to experiment.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19033532 - 10/25/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Every tek I've seen that uses an aquarium pump always puts the fucking aquarium pump into a bubble stone in water.  WHY?  It's not going to give you humidity.  Just have the aquarium pump piping fresh air into the chamber and you will get your full fresh air exchange.

Quote:

hgmstl said:
I apologize for my weak initial response.
It is too much work and seems like a breeding ground for contamination.
Monotubs and SGFCs work much better.
Try and stay away from overcomplicating things.
Make sure you are reading recent and relevant posts. no more than 2 years old.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17897163#17897163




Perlite is messy and fucking sucks.  Yes it's simple.  It's the perfect tek for beginners and it works great for everything from cakes to trays etc.

If the SGFC was perfect AND convenient people wouldn't constantly ask about an alternative to it.  People don't want to fan and mist 3 times a day.  They want a set it and forget it for CAKES.  Don't fire back with 'well just do monos if you want to set it and forget it' because that's not what people want.  People want a set it and forget it solution for CAKES.  Not monos.  Something that can be used without perlite, that will work in an enclosed environment ('stealth') and is guaranteed to keep humidity, provide evaporation and give full FAE.

No one has come up with the answer yet.  Some people make the PMP work.  The moment someone brings up using an air pump or something everyone immediately jumps down their throat and says build a SGFC or just switch to monos.

But for some reason buying a fan and dialing it in to a monotub is good while finding an air pump for automated FAE in an enclosed environment is bad.  The monotub has been proven to work.  But not everyone wants to buy a fucking pressure cooker.  Not everyone wants to fan and mist 3 times a day.  Regardless of price point, there has to be some kind of automated setup that will accomplish these things for cakes without the mess of perlite and without the attention needed for an SGFC.

That being said, I'm thinking arduino's and a thermal sensor connected to an automatic 'mister' that will detect when the cakes need to be misted / fanned.  OR swarms of nanobots specifically programmed to bring EZ water molecules (
to the surface of the cakes in sync with multiple oscilating fans to evaporate it and 'helper' nano bots to move mycelium strands into knots to accelerate the forming of pins. :rockon:


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

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No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19033542 - 10/25/13 10:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

over complicated.
just switch to monos.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19033635 - 10/25/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hgmstl said:
over complicated.
just switch to monos.



:drunkdriver:


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19033645 - 10/25/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i wish i was as awesome as officer jim lahey.
please show me when you are able to automate and get good consistent yields.
prove me wrong with evidence of your automated grow.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19034374 - 10/26/13 06:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blojo02184 said:
I like to think outside the box...
I understand low fae and humidity was the cause of the phasing out of magash's pmp tek.

My theory is that by allowing more air circulation through a water barrier would solve both issues...




Then think outside the box and build a shotgun terrarium which fixes all the problems with outdated PMPs and does so with natural air currents.

The problem with PMPs was and is the steady-state humidity.  Mycelium wants a varying humidity level to pin and fruit properly.  A shotgun terrarium goes through these daily oscillations as the temp and humidity in the room its in changes throughout the day.  A PMP is isolated from these changes, thus develops a steady saturation-humidity level which impedes pinning and growth.

Take a quick look at all the so-called 'automated terrariums' over the last ten years via the search function and try to find one single grower who is still using one.
RR


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Offlineanon887
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19035617 - 10/26/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You won't find many friends on this site. Unspoken rule of shroomery is your only allowed to talk about SGFC and monos. Anything else you just get as you see, people shout they know everything and your wasting your time.

I have a pmp going, as RR said, the FAE is really the only problem with PMP. FAE really hurts humidity in PMP. These are the 2 systems you have to 'dial in' on PMP. For most of the people here its too much work and they resign to mono and SGFC.

My first run, PMP with manual fan and mist did the best so far. Somewhat equal to a SGFC; but still sub-par.

Second run with a 3inch hole w/CPU fan. Produced less and smaller and stretchy fruits, though I had many more pins and the automation was nice; the drop in humidity too much from the open hole/fan.

Third run, currently going. I have a SFD under my fan. I have it set to run 30m every 2 hr. The humidity drops only 3~5% with fan on for 30m. Hopefully this provides enough FAE with keeping humidity in.

We will see.... If you are in the buying stage, I would say do a PMP but instead of the bubble-wands/air pump. Get a humidifier and PVC it to your tub. This seems to work the best on the site and keeps automation and perlite out.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: anon887]
    #19035637 - 10/26/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

anon887 said:
You won't find many friends on this site. Unspoken rule of shroomery is your only allowed to talk about SGFC and monos. Anything else you just get as you see, people shout they know everything and your wasting your time.

I have a pmp going, as RR said, the FAE is really the only problem with PMP. FAE really hurts humidity in PMP. These are the 2 systems you have to 'dial in' on PMP. For most of the people here its too much work and they resign to mono and SGFC.

My first run, PMP with manual fan and mist did the best so far. Somewhat equal to a SGFC; but still sub-par.

Second run with a 3inch hole w/CPU fan. Produced less and smaller and stretchy fruits, though I had many more pins and the automation was nice; the drop in humidity too much from the open hole/fan.

Third run, currently going. I have a SFD under my fan. I have it set to run 30m every 2 hr. The humidity drops only 3~5% with fan on for 30m. Hopefully this provides enough FAE with keeping humidity in.


 
We will see.... If you are in the buying stage, I would say do a PMP but instead of the bubble-wands/air pump. Get a humidifier and PVC it to your tub. This seems to work the best on the site and keeps automation and perlite out.





Sure it wouldn't have just been a lot easier to build a sgfc or do bulk in a monotub? :lol:

Sorry I couldn't resist


Edited by Stromrider (10/26/13 01:06 PM)


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: Stromrider]
    #19036482 - 10/26/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Prove us wrong with a grow that is not "sub par"


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: Stromrider]
    #19036489 - 10/26/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm thinking along the lines of maybe fan it out once in awhile for the drop and raise in rh.

Again, the lid is tyvek, so as to keep moisture in the tub.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19036644 - 10/26/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Tyvek won't keep in enough RH.

Just go with something simpler. You're seriously making more work and costing yourself more money for a smaller yield. That makes sense to you?

I know you wanna experiment, but they have been done. Just look it up. There's a million different automated systems with all kinds of different equipment, and none of them can out-perform a box with some holes in it.

Anyone who's tried it for long enough will say the same, I promise.

Keep in mind that there is no verification when someone writes a TEK. It looks all nice and they use the right terms and people assume it's perfect when it's usually some guy who got lucky once or twice and then decided to do a writeup.

Also, if you still have to fan, you're definitely wasting your time and materials. The point of a PMP is that you leave it alone.


--------------------
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Pat The Bunny said:
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bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: blojo02184]
    #19036978 - 10/26/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Those clay pebbles are not an easy workaround to perlite. I'm speaking from personal experience.

I tried the PMP with some success and modified it to try and increase performance.

I concluded that standing water with air bubbles blowing through it was not a good way to create high RH. I guess if you have enough bubbles then you could get it up. I made some modifications to create this.

I also concluded that it's not enough to get the RH up by making more bubbles. The air has to be able to escape as well. Blowing in more air with the pump was not the same as FAE. The air has to actually exchange. My attempts at creating FAE dropped my RH.

Tyvek will allow for gas exchange, but not to the degree that you will get the FAE you need for fruiting.

So I got a bigger pump. This seemed to help. But it was loud and didn't really seem to help with my yields. The cakes will still dry out if you don't mist.

Sometimes it's good to get on the bandwagon because it's going where you want to go. I don't know why people hate the bandwagon so much. Is it hauling the box or something?


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Offlineanon887
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19037777 - 10/26/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
Sure it wouldn't have just been a lot easier to build a sgfc or do bulk in a monotub? :lol:

Sorry I couldn't resist





There are other reasons. It's not all about how easier or time-proven a method is.. I think it would be better to suggestion people go for greenhouse/humidifier route if they are thinking about PMP. It's more close to what we want then a mono or sgfc; and is easy to workout then PMP.

Quote:

hgmstl said:
Prove us wrong with a grow that is not "sub par"




I will. PMP is just not liked around here because none of the teks provide the right environment. And to get there on a PMP is not as easy as drilling more holes or misting.

After my run with this SFD, which I already am having doubts about the amount of exchange it provides. It seems to spin the air inside the tub more then exchange it.

Next run, I will be doing a mono-tub type thing. Add polyfilled-holes at the bottom and then using some window type screen - create a polyfill filter to cover my fan port.


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Offlinehgmstl
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: anon887]
    #19038313 - 10/26/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

anon887 said:
Quote:

Stromrider said:
Sure it wouldn't have just been a lot easier to build a sgfc or do bulk in a monotub? :lol:

Sorry I couldn't resist





There are other reasons. It's not all about how easier or time-proven a method is.. I think it would be better to suggestion people go for greenhouse/humidifier route if they are thinking about PMP. It's more close to what we want then a mono or sgfc; and is easy to workout then PMP.

Quote:

hgmstl said:
Prove us wrong with a grow that is not "sub par"




I will. PMP is just not liked around here because none of the teks provide the right environment. And to get there on a PMP is not as easy as drilling more holes or misting.

After my run with this SFD, which I already am having doubts about the amount of exchange it provides. It seems to spin the air inside the tub more then exchange it.

Next run, I will be doing a mono-tub type thing. Add polyfilled-holes at the bottom and then using some window type screen - create a polyfill filter to cover my fan port.




Awesome I can't wait to see your posts.
I didn't mention greenhouse because I was  under the assumption bloke wanted to stay with cakes.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: hgmstl]
    #19194357 - 11/26/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Just to throw it out there(and i know it will be torn apart), here are a couple of shots of my version of a PMP.



I made this because it has gotten colder in my area and I needed to keep the cubes(and pan cams I have almost ready to cast)in their optimal range.  The SGFC I had was drying out too fast and not keeping the humidity where it needed to be as I don't have a closet in my room to use.  My room also has 2 a/c vents as well as a window unit(good size room, 16ft*25ft) to keep the room cooler for the most of the year.  I work a lot of long hour days, and can usually only fan/mist 2 times a day, once before and after work.  I needed something a little less maintenance.  I came up with this so far. 

I didn't use any rocks or such to put the cakes on, but suspended them about 1.5in above the water with this metal grid.  I am running a duel outlet air pump for a 60gal tank into 2-6.5in bubble bars, each with a small in-hose air filter.  I also have a tank heater in the water to keep the temp in the box as needed.  I didn't put any holes in it as the top is a split fold top, so it has constant crack in the top to let co2 out.  I've seen 90-95* humidity and 78*F temps the last 3 days i've ran it and that is way more pins on one cake in one bunch then i've ever had, and quicker since I picked the first flush.


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: twiztidunreal]
    #19194527 - 11/26/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

twiztidunreal said:
Just to throw it out there(and i know it will be torn apart), here are a couple of shots of my version of a PMP.




:facepalm: never heat the chamber, heat the room.

The heat is killing your humidity, and air pumps do not give sufficient constant FAE.

That chamber has fail written all over it, I suggest making a SGFC but that's just my advice....take it as you will...

http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Terrarium-Tek


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: PussyFart]
    #19194696 - 11/26/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

hey if it works for u then thats all that matters:2cents: i personally have tried monos, Marthas, PMP, and SGFC to which i say the PMP worked better for me than SGFC and i love my marthas just for the amount i can put inside em and they have given me some of my best pin sets

you dont wanna heat your chamber though as notahacker stated. using perilte(never tried clay pebble things) helps to wisk the water into the air which will create higher humidity and bubble wands IMO help disperse the fresh air being induced into the PMP. i currently use marthas and monos . still trying to decide which to focus on as both are pretty much set and forget other than refilling the humidifier like twice a day(once i wake up and before bed)....speaking of which lol


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OfflineSynKyd
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19195159 - 11/27/13 05:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said: swarms of nanobots specifically programmed to bring EZ water molecules to the surface of the cakes in sync with multiple oscilating fans to evaporate it and 'helper' nano bots to move mycelium strands into knots to accelerate the forming of pins. :rockon:




That seems overly complicated, and probably has a very high ROI, but you should experiment with it ET and post your results!  :cheers:


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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: PussyFart]
    #19195369 - 11/27/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

twiztidunreal said:
Just to throw it out there(and i know it will be torn apart), here are a couple of shots of my version of a PMP.




:facepalm: never heat the chamber, heat the room.

The heat is killing your humidity, and air pumps do not give sufficient constant FAE.

That chamber has fail written all over it, I suggest making a SGFC but that's just my advice....take it as you will...

http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Terrarium-Tek





I had/have a SGFC, built to a T, but as I stated before, I don't have a closet to put it in, so it sits on top of my gun safe.  I was only getting 80-85* humidity with the SGFC, and that was with misting and fanning it 2 times a day.  There is just too much air flow in my room for the SGFC.
Also as far as heating the water, I don't control the temp in the house, as it is not mine.  I have a space heater I use when i'm home, but i'm not going to leave a space heater on when i'm not here.  So the PMP seems my best option for my cakes and pans.
On a side note, I am constructing 3 mono tubs for my Thai, PE and PES Hawaiian.  These will be my main way of growing, I just didn't want to make a tub of Pan Cams, as i've ready they do better in trays and need more controlled parameters.


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: PMP theory/idea tek, thoughts and concerns [Re: twiztidunreal]
    #19205294 - 11/29/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's looking not too bad. How full have you gotten it before?

How many cfm are you pushing through?


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Offlineonwardupward
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PMP humidity variation solution? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #21117566 - 01/13/15 09:57 PM (9 years, 17 days ago)

Roger Rabbit's problem with PMP's is:  "The problem with PMPs was and is the steady-state humidity.  Mycelium wants a varying humidity level to pin and fruit properly.  A shotgun terrarium goes through these daily oscillations as the temp and humidity in the room its in changes throughout the day.  A PMP is isolated from these changes, thus develops a steady saturation-humidity level which impedes pinning and growth."

Is the solution to this just to take the lid off the PMP for an hour or two each day, switch off the aeration pump, and circulate air over the PMP with a fan, thereby dramatically reducing humidity for two hours?

Then return PMP to normal set-up for the rest of the day.  Your fruits will experience the required humidity variation with only a single tending per day.


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InvisibleBig Bear
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Re: PMP humidity variation solution? [Re: onwardupward]
    #21118070 - 01/13/15 10:47 PM (9 years, 17 days ago)

Bumpin it like its on a key I see :rail2:


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: PMP humidity variation solution? [Re: onwardupward]
    #21120222 - 01/14/15 12:12 PM (9 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

onwardupward said:
Roger Rabbit's problem with PMP's is:  "The problem with PMPs was and is the steady-state humidity.  Mycelium wants a varying humidity level to pin and fruit properly.  A shotgun terrarium goes through these daily oscillations as the temp and humidity in the room its in changes throughout the day.  A PMP is isolated from these changes, thus develops a steady saturation-humidity level which impedes pinning and growth."

Is the solution to this just to take the lid off the PMP for an hour or two each day, switch off the aeration pump, and circulate air over the PMP with a fan, thereby dramatically reducing humidity for two hours?

Then return PMP to normal set-up for the rest of the day.  Your fruits will experience the required humidity variation with only a single tending per day.




You would think so, but no.

Opening the lid causes drastic humidity loss instead of the slow decline and rise.

Good idea tho

But please, anyone thinking of using a pmp, or hydroponics system for mushrooms... DONT!!!

Now, some mod want to :lockdance:


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OfflineFreeWorldOrder
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Re: PMP humidity variation solution? [Re: blojo02184]
    #21120539 - 01/14/15 01:31 PM (9 years, 16 days ago)

When I first started out I had to use an unheated area inside during the winter months. I had some degree of success with an aquarium heater in a quart water jar with pump & air stone. (pumped from outside the terrarium. To bring the RH back up I used 2 of the miniature ultrasonic humidifiers right inside the terrarium. If I would have had the misters/foggers dialed in better with the proper type timer it may have worked better.

Since then I now have a HEATED room to work in.

Nothing beats a SGFC or MONOTUB, but I had no choice at the time but to do what I had to do. It was a hassle getting it to work right. And it most definitely WAS NOT STEALTH....lol.

Did it work? In short, yes. But nothing compared to the ease and yields obtained from a properly set up mono or sgfc in a heated room.


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