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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Representing yourself
    #19030711 - 10/25/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So I need some advice on representing myself.
Cops performed a blatantly unlawful search and seizure.
I should be fine by exclusionary rule, and I have several witnesses to back me up, along with any recordings the cops may have taken.

I really just want some advice from someone to make sure I know how to prepare for defending myself.
If you have experience with defense by exclusionary rule then that would be greeeat.

:igor:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19031147 - 10/25/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
So I need some advice on representing myself.
Cops performed a blatantly unlawful search and seizure.
I should be fine by exclusionary rule, and I have several witnesses to back me up, along with any recordings the cops may have taken.

I really just want some advice from someone to make sure I know how to prepare for defending myself.
If you have experience with defense by exclusionary rule then that would be greeeat.

:igor:



As a pro se, your motion to suppress will probably fail.  You're welcome to post the facts leading up to the search, and I'll give you whatever law I can that helps your case out, but Motions to Suppress are always a long shot, and as a pro se, you're really stacking the odds against yourself.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19032372 - 10/25/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Okay.
Texas seems very favorable of the exclusionary rule, and there's a statute that even limits the good faith clause.
Though in this case there was no warrant. Just an anonymous tipoff about a "suspicious" vehicle that we were not even occupying (parked in front of a neighbors house).


But being a Pro Se really hurts me that much? Even when presenting myself as a well informed and verbose defendant in front of a jury of peers?

I was hoping to study the lingo and court procedure so I could match the prosecutor in professionalism.

I'll PM you the case details for better insight.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19032402 - 10/25/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just found a pro se guide for Texas courts. Hopefully that'll help.

I may consider getting a lawyer that's a family friend who'd be willing to do a pay plan.
I am serious about not letting this conviction get on my record.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19033720 - 10/25/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It isn't really about professionalism or verbosity.  It's about knowing the relevant binding authority.  You can be as clever as you want, but if the law isn't on your side, you're fucked.

On top of that, it sounds like there are factual issues in addition to legal issues.  If a cop testifies that something happened a certain way, you're going to have a tough time undercutting that testimony with a judge.  With a jury, you've got a better shot, but judges usually believe the cop.  As a pro se, you're probably not going to outmaneuver the cop on the stand.  He's a professional witness, and you're a noob.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19033845 - 10/26/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sending in a form tomorrow to the police records department to request any recordings of the incident.

Is it common for records departments to deny pro se's access to police documentation?

If I could retrieve the audio or video, it will clearly prove my side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19033943 - 10/26/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You can request it from the prosecutor as discovery material.  If they don't turn it over, tell the judge and ask for a terminating sanction.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19035210 - 10/26/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
So I need some advice on representing myself.
Cops performed a blatantly unlawful search and seizure.
I should be fine by exclusionary rule, and I have several witnesses to back me up, along with any recordings the cops may have taken.

I really just want some advice from someone to make sure I know how to prepare for defending myself.
If you have experience with defense by exclusionary rule then that would be greeeat.

:igor:




"Any attorney that represents himself has a fool for a client." Advice from my attorney-friend's law school professor.

Unless maybe you're planning on pleading guilty, choosing to remain silent, or perhaps entering a plea of Nolo contendere(maybe?), I would think it foolish--if not downright stupid--to represent yourself with a Not guilty plea. Not only are you at a huge disadvantage because you're trying to play attorney when you don't know wtf you're doing, but also because you don't have a professional separation from the matter at hand.

Even the worst opposing attorney would play with you and then tear your ass up with no lube. Best case, the judge won't take you seriously, and after the matter is concluded, you're going to give everyone a good laugh at lunchtime. Worst case you'll do something illegal in the proceedings, and end up with an additional contempt charge to deal with.

One thing that you might consider trying by yourself is a plea bargain. Talk to the DA and asking if you can get the charges reduced. See what s/he says. If you can negotiate a lower charge, and you're satisfied with the offer, then take it. If not, then enter your Not guilty plea, and bring the lawyer into the game.

Other than that I'd say get a lawyer.

What are the charges? Are there any associated civil charges?


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (10/26/13 11:47 AM)


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #19035843 - 10/26/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Its a citation for paraphernalia. I don't see what there would be to laugh about.
the officer blatantly violated my rights, and I verbally contested him doing so but made no resistance. I was even cordial with the officer afterwards which is why he lowered my charge from possession to paraphernalia.


I'm not going to enter into a situation ignorant of the due process.
but yes, I am considering a public appointed attorney.

I was going to speak with a magistrate from the prosecuting county on Monday for his opinion.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19036131 - 10/26/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

1. Just that one charge for para? Nothing else?
2. Assuming you're in the U.S.A., what state?

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I verbally contested him doing so



3. What do you mean by that? What did you say to the officer, and what was the context? What did he say to you? Did he ask to search you?


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (10/26/13 03:57 PM)


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #19036716 - 10/26/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, because this is a minor offense I will spill the details here.

Me and two friends were hanging out at a friends house, we'll call that friend A.
Friend B drove us there and we parked a few house down from friend A.

After being at friend A's house for several hours, we decide to leave so I can get home.
Me and friend B enter the car and pull up to friend A's house because he was saying bye to his parents.

As friend A comes out of the house, I step out of the car to allow friend A into the back seat (two door car).
This is when two cop cars quickly pulled up in front of B's car.

I had no idea why the officers had arrived, so I begin to get back into the passenger seat, thinking that we were about to drive off.

As I'm about to sit down and close the door the officer in the car closest to us points at me and instructs me to step outside.

I step outside and ask the officer what the problem is, as the officer appeared and sounded upset.

The officer ignores my question and instructs me to place my hands on the back of the car.

He begins to pat me down, and asks me if I have anything on me that he needs to know about.
I don't answer his question, and repeatedly ask him what I did to warrant such behavior.

The officer begins to put his hands in my pocket and I begin to turn my upper torso (while keeping my hands on the car) so I can directly speak to the officer.
My motion alarms the officer, so he places me in handcuffs.

After placing me in handcuffs, the officer says something along the lines of: "What's in your pocket that you don't want me finding?"

He then reaches into my pocket and feels around till he finds a very small amount of marijuana.

The officer laughs and says "You think I would arrest you for this?"

I respond with something along the lines of "I don't know what I've done officer, but I have a job!" (and I was seriously worried about losing it)

The officer then removes the rest of my belongings and places me in the back of his car.
He then runs my ID and begins questioning how I know my friends.
I respond honestly, as they are associates by reasonable cause.

After seeing that I have no warrants he exits the vehicle and proceeds to assist the other officer in searching my two friends.

Once he left the car, I could see the incident report on his computer that notified the officers.


A neighbor had reported a suspicious vehicle (friend B's car, which is there every other day) parked outside.

After my other two friends had been arrested, the officer comes back into the car and explains that they have had several calls regarding this specific car; and by his tone he seemed fed up with the situation (in regards to the car's suspicion).

I could go on with the story, but I've told the most critical part.

The "suspicious vehicle" that was called in was unoccupied the entire time it was parked.
Me and my two friends were inside friend A's house until leaving.
The officers appeared right as we were about to leave, and it's possible they believed we were attempting to flee; though we had no intention of doing so.



There was no report of drug use on the incident report. Nor was there any report regarding a specific person.

But the officer seemed to specifically target me; and immediately searched me without any explanation or justification.
He didn't ask me to identify myself until after arresting me.



From my perspective this is a blatant violation of my rights.
We had every right to park in front of a neighbors house because there were no available spots in front of friend A's house.
Also, friend B is over at friend A's house practically every other day because they are best friends.
The neighbors had no reason to be alarmed by an unoccupied car that is regularly on the street.

Friend A later told me (after we were released) that his mom had some drama with one of his neighbors, and that they had been spiteful of each other ever since.
He said that he was almost positive it was this specific neighbor that called in the tip because his family was on relatively good terms with everyone else on the street.


So yeah, I would call that an unwarranted search.
The state of Texas strongly supports the exclusionary rule, and because there was no warrant by magistrate, the Good Faith clause would not apply.
Also, Texas is very critical of the Good Faith clause, so even if that were applicable; it would be hard to stick.


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #19036739 - 10/26/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
1. Just that one charge for para? Nothing else?



Yes.
Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
2. Assuming you're in the U.S.A., what state?



Texas.

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I verbally contested him doing so



3. What do you mean by that? What did you say to the officer, and what was the context? What did he say to you? Did he ask to search you?



I said "What did I do officer? Why am I being searched?"
He never asked for consent of any form.
He only asked if I had anything on my belongings that he needed to be aware of.


--------------------
Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu..
*Cough* *Cough*
Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu...

At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19036761 - 10/26/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They don't need a warrant to search you or your car.  They only need probable cause.  Whether they had probable cause or not depends on the specific facts.  It's not clear from what you've told us. 

You should be ready for the officer to testify that you were making furtive gestures that led him to frisk you because he had reasonable suspicion that you had a weapon.  Then expect him to say that something you said/did during that procedure gave him a reasonable belief that he would find contraband in your pockets.

You're going to have to counter that to get the evidence suppressed.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19037443 - 10/26/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

First... are you a minor?

Your description doesn't indicate a clear statement that you did not consent to a search; without a lawyer, this pretty much means that you consented.

If you're going to use illegal drugs, you need to get smarter. If nothing else remember the yellow line in my sig below.

Take a couple of hours and watch  the vids that Alan was kind enough to sticky for us:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241015

If you want to jump to the part that applies directly to your case, watch Part II, starting at 6:17... ESPECIALLY the point at 7:30:



Go on and keep watching from the beginning of part III. Especially at 3:09:



--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (10/26/13 08:37 PM)


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OfflineAcaterpillar
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #19038255 - 10/26/13 10:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not a minor.
I don't know what I said would lead you to believe so.


Anyways, thanks for the advice.

I'm going to get a lawyer.


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OnlineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19040940 - 10/27/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I'm going to get a lawyer.




:thumbup:

It sounds like you have a borderline case so you definitely need someone to argue for you.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19064728 - 10/31/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I'm going to get a lawyer.




:thumbup:

It sounds like you have a borderline case so you definitely need someone to argue for you.



:whathesaid:


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19064870 - 10/31/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I'm going to get a lawyer.




:thumbup:

It sounds like you have a borderline case so you definitely need someone to argue for you.





yes and I totally agree.

so if you are going to get fucked....you might as well get fucked by a lawyer, either way...you are going to lose money.:drysmash:


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19110072 - 11/09/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
They don't need a warrant to search you or your car.  They only need probable cause.  Whether they had probable cause or not depends on the specific facts.  It's not clear from what you've told us. 

You should be ready for the officer to testify that you were making furtive gestures that led him to frisk you because he had reasonable suspicion that you had a weapon.  Then expect him to say that something you said/did during that procedure gave him a reasonable belief that he would find contraband in your pockets.

You're going to have to counter that to get the evidence suppressed.







And this is why the law (particularly in cases like this) drives me nuts, sometimes. I don't think they should be able to do that, legally. IMHO that IS an illegal search, regardless of how much officers may want to twist it, and judges may want to let them get away with it.


If they suspect you of having a weapon, they should be allowed to PAT (<---- this is a very specific term, with a specific definition) around the pockets, waistband, etc of a person to feel for weapons. If something which does not feel like a weapon is felt (i.e. a baggie) they should not be able to legally remove that item, etc.


No reasonable person would confuse a small baggie of drugs with a knife, gun, bludgeon, etc.


As far as I'm concerned, this is asking for an inch and taking a mile.


"Officer safety" my big black dick.


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I am me. We are You.


Edited by CidneyIndole (11/09/13 11:48 AM)


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OnlineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Representing yourself [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19110219 - 11/09/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, that is kind of how all of law enforcement works in the USA.  One excuse leads to another excuse and eventually to jail.

In Mexico it is far different - Any cop can pull you over or search you at any time.  They don't need a reason.

So they don't hardly ever pull anyone over for speeding - You can drive pretty much any speed you feel safe.  If they feel like stopping people, they just block the road and stop whoever they like.

I am not sure which system I like better - The US where they make up BS to go into your pockets, or Mexico where they just go into your pockets and skip the bullshit.  In Mexico pretty much everything is legal as long as you bring some cash, so I am leaning towards the Mexican system being my preferred way of doing things.  I don't even start my car without $100 on me, and I don't have to wonder if I will get pulled over and busted.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: CidneyIndole] * 1
    #19110644 - 11/09/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

In a terry frisk, they can only pat you down.  They can't empty your pockets unless they feel something that feels like a weapon.  If they feel something that can plainly be determined to be contraband WITHOUT MANIPULATING THE OBJECT, that can give them probable cause to seize that object...

Of course, this last point is among the most ridiculous and most abused doctrine of all.  We call this the "plain feel doctrine" and most lawyers only use the term sarcastically.

Then a terry frisk is of a car, however, they can search any part of the passenger compartment.  They can't search the trunk or under the hood, however.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19120483 - 11/11/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I received the information on my arrest that I requested today.

They gave me video of me sitting in the back car, but for some reason there is no video or audio of the actual arrest. Aren't the officers required to record audio and video once they leave their cars to approach a suspect?


And from the narrative of the incident, the officer makes it sound like I was covering my  pockets with my hands when he pat me down (I never removed my hands from the car).
If I can't get audio or vieo of the arrest, than it would simply be my word against his.

If there was audio or video of the actual arrest that was withheld, can I attempt to appeal to a later court date and ask for the withheld items?



The only other point I could make, is that the officer approached me first and patted me down; and then claimed to be able to "see inside my pocket because it contained a large smartphone which made a bag of marijuana visible"; so he claims to have not even searched me, but just so happened to see inside my pocket.
However, he had no reason to look inside that specific pocket because he was suspicious about the long metal e-cig in my other pocket, so why would he be looking in the other pocket that only held my smartphone?

The narrative is actually very biased. I know that the bag of marijuana wasn't visible because it was underneath my keys, which were underneath my smartphone; and he reached inside my pocket before he saw anything. As he was reaching in my pocket, he even said "What do you have in your pockets that have you so scared?"

However, considering there's no audio or video that I received of the arrest, it would simply be my word against his. In which case I would take a guilty plea.

Could I go into court before my first court date and change my plea to guilty?
Since it's only a citation, I'd rather just pay the money for the ticket instead of paying for several courts fees.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19120507 - 11/11/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you should file a motion to suppress the evidence based on the illegal search / he could not have seen the marijuana.

It will probably fail but its a shot...

When you have your court dates to file stuff like this you could talk to the prosecutor and see if he is willing to knock it down to something that is not a drug charge.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19120536 - 11/11/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Acaterpillar said:
I received the information on my arrest that I requested today.

They gave me video of me sitting in the back car, but for some reason there is no video or audio of the actual arrest. Aren't the officers required to record audio and video once they leave their cars to approach a suspect?



Not by law they aren't, but maybe by policy.  The real questions are who started the recording, and why did he start it then?  These are the questions your lawyer should be asking the officers on the stand.  Is there a reason for starting the recording later? 
Quote:



And from the narrative of the incident, the officer makes it sound like I was covering my  pockets with my hands when he pat me down (I never removed my hands from the car).
If I can't get audio or vieo of the arrest, than it would simply be my word against his.

If there was audio or video of the actual arrest that was withheld, can I attempt to appeal to a later court date and ask for the withheld items?



If they have the audio or video and are claiming they don't, you'll probably never find out.  Just make sure that your attorney requests those specific things in discovery.  Force them to deny having it or turn it over.  That way, they can't bring it out later to prove you lied about something without really fucking themselves.
Quote:


The only other point I could make, is that the officer approached me first and patted me down; and then claimed to be able to "see inside my pocket because it contained a large smartphone which made a bag of marijuana visible"; so he claims to have not even searched me, but just so happened to see inside my pocket.
However, he had no reason to look inside that specific pocket because he was suspicious about the long metal e-cig in my other pocket, so why would he be looking in the other pocket that only held my smartphone?

The narrative is actually very biased. I know that the bag of marijuana wasn't visible because it was underneath my keys, which were underneath my smartphone; and he reached inside my pocket before he saw anything. As he was reaching in my pocket, he even said "What do you have in your pockets that have you so scared?"

However, considering there's no audio or video that I received of the arrest, it would simply be my word against his. In which case I would take a guilty plea.

Could I go into court before my first court date and change my plea to guilty?
Since it's only a citation, I'd rather just pay the money for the ticket instead of paying for several courts fees.



Of course the report is biased.  You're right about the cops story of being able to see inside your pocket.  That's clearly bullshit unless you have a cellphone from the 80's.  He wrote that he could see it for the sole purpose of trying to make the search hold up in court.

If you want my honest, professional opinion, I think I could get this search ruled illegal and the evidence suppressed.  The cops story on the report is pretty weak, and a simple in-court demonstration with you wearing the pants and the phone would make him look very silly and dishonest.

Having said that, yes...it's going to cost money to fight it unless the lawyer is working pro bono.  It's up to you whether it's worth the fight.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19120559 - 11/11/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Probably worth the fight if it is your first drug conviction.  You really want to reduce the number of drug convictions on your record.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19120581 - 11/11/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd agree, but then I'd be accused of just trying to make sure that my lawyer brethren are getting paid.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19120643 - 11/11/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd agree, but then I'd be accused of just trying to make sure that my lawyer brethren are getting paid.




You bastard. You're just trying to make sure that my your lawyer brethren are getting paid.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19120664 - 11/11/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ixnay on the uthtray.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19120709 - 11/11/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have one possession of marijuana charge, but I am a few months away from having it expunged.
I believe my expungement would be made invalid with the paraphernalia citation.

My court date is in two days, I was going to request a public attorney. Do you think this is a case that wont be won unless I actually hire an attorney?


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19120766 - 11/11/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If you qualify for a PD you should get one.  You might not have a constitutional right to one, but some states still provide them.  The PD will likely agree that a motion to suppress should be filed, but you should probably suggest the idea to him/her.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19120799 - 11/11/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My first court hearing is in two days. If I am not hiring an attorney, will I need to have a PD before then, or can I request a PD at that first hearing?


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19120825 - 11/11/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Request one then.  It may not be an option.  If it isn't, tell the court you need some time to hire a private attorney.


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Re: Representing yourself [Re: Enlil]
    #19123715 - 11/11/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Alright, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to hire an attorney.
I spoke with a few on the phone and one said I could hire him tomorrow to file for a hearing, but I'm going to wait till I get my bail back from my first court date so I have the cash to pay him.
How should I go about finding out his experience with actual trials?
Is there somewhere I can look it up; or is it best to just directly ask him?


He was recommended to me by a family law attorney, and he has 37 years experience, but I don't know if he was always doing criminal law or what.
The information I read online on him was rather ambiguous.


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