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PurpleHaze147



Registered: 04/09/13
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Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis?
#19026240 - 10/24/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't understand why THC alone isn't stronger than cannabis. Or is this because marinol contains THC that's not converted to THCA, the orally active form of THC + oxygen produced by cooking THC in fat? As far as I know THC is the only CB agonist in cannabis and it's only a partial agonist. CBD, THCV, CBN, etc. are all CB ANTAGONISTS. This means they should actually lower the effect of THC. If. you combined say LSD for example with a serotonin antagonist, such as thorazine, it would greatly lessen the effects. All antagonists on paper should decrease an agonists efficacy.
Edited by PurpleHaze147 (10/24/13 03:11 PM)
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026453 - 10/24/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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because cannabis contains a whole cocktail of other active compounds besides just THC, which varies from strain to strain and batch to batch.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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mikeisapro
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: nicechrisman]
#19026554 - 10/24/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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^What he said.
CBN and CBD are pretty important cannabinoids in cannabis. There are also many more that show up in smaller amounts.
Don't care if they are agonists, they get you high bro. Besides, I thought agonists means it stimulates the receptors causing intoxication. For example, "spice" products (synthetic cannabinoids) get you way higher than weed, and this is because they're usually full agonists of CBN/CBD rather than partial agonists like the CBD and CBN in cannabis.
-------------------- Life without drugs lacks substance(s).
Edited by mikeisapro (10/24/13 04:06 PM)
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hgmstl
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: mikeisapro]
#19026562 - 10/24/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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cbn is just degraded thc
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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PurpleHaze147



Registered: 04/09/13
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: mikeisapro]
#19026571 - 10/24/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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CBD and CBN like I said in the original post are antagonists and block the effects of THC. U don't take a antipsychotic to intensify a trip, that would be retarded. Antagonists block agonists!
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mikeisapro
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026574 - 10/24/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleHaze147 said: CBD and CBN like I said in the original post are antagonists and block the effects of THC. U don't take a antipsychotic to intensify a trip, that would be retarded. Antagonists block agonists!
They are agonists, not "antagonists"
-------------------- Life without drugs lacks substance(s).
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hgmstl
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: mikeisapro]
#19026584 - 10/24/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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maybe more appropriate on the growery?
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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mikeisapro
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: hgmstl]
#19026590 - 10/24/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not a chemist, but IMO it's pretty simple. Cannabis contains tons of psychoactives, not just THC. 
The various cannabinoids also synergize with each other when taken together.
-------------------- Life without drugs lacks substance(s).
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PurpleHaze147



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026591 - 10/24/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Suboxone contains buprenorphine, a partial agonist, and naloxone, an antagonist. Subutex is always preferred by addicts cuz it's just buprenorphine. Maybe not much ppl have experience smoking pure THC, I'm pretty sure marinol is just THC not THCA and the only way u can take it is orally.
I don't know if anyone's even smoked pure THC before and recorded the effects. Ud have to synthesize it. THC orally isn't nearly as active when it's cooked and converted into THCA. Marinols just THC.
Edited by PurpleHaze147 (10/24/13 04:19 PM)
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PurpleHaze147



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: mikeisapro]
#19026604 - 10/24/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeisapro said:
Quote:
PurpleHaze147 said: CBD and CBN like I said in the original post are antagonists and block the effects of THC. U don't take a antipsychotic to intensify a trip, that would be retarded. Antagonists block agonists!
They are agonists, not "antagonists"
No they're technically antagonists, there partial agonists with an efficacy so low they block normal cannabinoid agonists, partial agonists with lower efficacy act as antagonist. CBN is a 5-HT2a agonist which may account for some psychedelic effects.
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StygianKnight
A Mushroom

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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026633 - 10/24/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who says it's not? Many people don't like Marinol for the reason's it's prescribed but I'm pretty sure it can still get you high. One issue may be consumption, most people are used to smoked effects, not ingestion. Many people seem to enjoy a mediated high. Just look at reports of CB receptor full agnonists (like spice and other synthetic). Many find themselves the most stoned they've ever been and not enjoying it. CBDs and other compounds seem to mediate the CB high to produce an overall more enjoyable experience.
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PurpleHaze147



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: StygianKnight]
#19026669 - 10/24/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually maybe it's because even tho they antagonize the CB receptors some are serotonin agonists and some release endorphines at the mu and kappa opioid pre-synaptic vessels. But the effect on the other receptors I think is pretty mild.
Ever since I've been on suboxone I've seemed to enjoy "spice" just as much as weed. Suboxone blocks endorphines from activating opioid receptors, or maybe just cuz it's a lot cheaper which caused a placebo effect lol.
Edited by PurpleHaze147 (10/24/13 04:36 PM)
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sof4r0ckeRs1984



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: StygianKnight]
#19026682 - 10/24/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Don't forget the Terpenes! They interact with THC because their structures are very similar to THC. It's as if, let's say I like books, but I don't get into the really cool parties. Now I have a close friend who also likes books and he has got a lot of connections for good parties, so if I'm with him I get in there. Same with THC and other Cannabinoids/Terpenes. For example Myrcene allows for THC to get across the blood/brain barrier faster.
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hgmstl
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#19026705 - 10/24/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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marinol is Dronabinol whichQuote:
sof4r0ckeRs1984 said: Don't forget the Terpenes! They interact with THC because their structures are very similar to THC. It's as if, let's say I like books, but I don't get into the really cool parties. Now I have a close friend who also likes books and he has got a lot of connections for good parties, so if I'm with him I get in there. Same with THC and other Cannabinoids/Terpenes. For example Myrcene allows for THC to get across the blood/brain barrier faster.
+5 for terpenes.
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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sof4r0ckeRs1984



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: hgmstl]
#19026713 - 10/24/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hgmstl said: marinol is Dronabinol whichQuote:
sof4r0ckeRs1984 said: Don't forget the Terpenes! They interact with THC because their structures are very similar to THC. It's as if, let's say I like books, but I don't get into the really cool parties. Now I have a close friend who also likes books and he has got a lot of connections for good parties, so if I'm with him I get in there. Same with THC and other Cannabinoids/Terpenes. For example Myrcene allows for THC to get across the blood/brain barrier faster.
+5 for terpenes.
Man I love them. I have a Paradise Acid going that smells like Peanuts and a Dinafem's Moby that smells like sage. Crazy.
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PurpleHaze147



Registered: 04/09/13
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#19026720 - 10/24/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just by looking at a terpintines structure it looks like a GABA antagonist similar to thujone(wormwood), which I think is a terpintine. Or prolly sum effect on GABA. I haven't found much on thier actual mechanism of action yet so u may be right.
Edited by PurpleHaze147 (10/24/13 04:47 PM)
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sof4r0ckeRs1984



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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026759 - 10/24/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's quite complicated tu explain, also it's just more or less my estimation. But THC is biosynthesized from geranylpyrophosphate, which contains isoprene units just like terpenes, isoprene is THE basic terpene unit, according to wiki.
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Sheekle
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#19026784 - 10/24/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can't remember ever hearing anybody say that THC alone is not as strong as cannabis
-------------------- "Ur cat died because he hated u" - Koods "I hope JSB kicks your ass one day." - Vandago "you are the biggest 'internet guy' I have ever come across"- Jokeshopbeard "The more I see you post the more I realize you're just this fuckin tie dye loser who trolls the Shroomery 24/7." - Herbologist "Sheekle you cannot vile the dice of bullshit you have posted on this forum over the years, I like databases" - thelastoneleft "or maybe i just come from a blood line of superior intelligence" - trees R.I.P Kelsy, ?/?/?? - 6/11/16
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s240779

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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026810 - 10/24/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleHaze147 said: I don't understand why THC alone isn't stronger than cannabis.
It may be as strong as cannabis -- as psychoactive. I can't comment as I've never tried isolated THC and haven't seen any experience reports on it. But poor commentary on Marinol that you may have seen is a result of the fact that cannabinoids have a very low oral bioavailability, so swallowing Marinol doesn't do much.
Food for thought:
-- I say Marinol is pretty fucking good. If you smoke blunts of kush all day you might not feel it, but it definitely has a positive effects. Only thing I hate about it is it's so fucking expensive. The price has dropped from insanely expensive to very expensive since dronabinol went generic. It's cheaper to just buy weed. It's a combination of production costs, regulations, and milking sick dying people for money. If it weren't so expensive it'd be more popular, same with Desoxyn.
Generic pharmaceutical companies wanted to grow weed to get THC, since the synthesis is hard and expensive, but the DEA said no:(31-07-2012 THC2LSD http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/345559-does-marinol-make-you-high?p=10786016&viewfull=1#post10786016-- -- The pill alone doesn't give you a buzz but you can take a safety pin and drizzle it on a bowl and blast off!!! 31-07-2012) swimmerman89 http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/345559-does-marinol-make-you-high?p=10785712&viewfull=1#post10785712-- Sounds like the above individual is mixing it with weed when he smokes it, so there's only so much we can deduce from his report. Quote:
PurpleHaze147 said: Or is this because marinol contains THC that's not converted to THCA, the orally active form of THC + oxygen produced by cooking THC in fat?
THCA is the immature form of THC.1 It is undesirable whether it is ingested or inhaled. THCA comes first and then THC (after decarboxylation).
Quote:
PurpleHaze147 said: produced by cooking THC in fat?
That's a myth. It's actually a combination of two myths: 1. the idea that weed needs to be heated in order to be decarboxylated.2 2. The idea that marijuana needs to be infused into fat in order to be properly ingested.
As has been said, marijuana contains about 66 cannabinoids, although the significance of all of them is not known and is questionable. My current feeling is that isolated THC is generally as strong as cannabis, however its effects are distinct from cannabis.
Also, Marinol is not THC. It is an analog, but an absurdly close analog, from what I understand.
1. Despite the ready decarboxylation by drying or heating ex vivo conversion of THCA to THC in vivo appears to be very limited, giving it only very slight efficacy as a prodrug for THC.[8]
8. Jung J, Meyer MR, Maurer HH, Neusüss C, Weinmann W, Auwärter V. (Oct 2009), "Studies on the metabolism of the Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol precursor delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid A (Delta9-THCA-A) in rat using LC-MS/MS, LC-QTOF MS and GC-MS techniques", Journal of Mass Spectrometry 44 (10): 1423–33 doi:10.1002/jms.1624, PMID 19728318
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinolic_acid#cite_note-8
2. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showthreaded.php/Number/18440910/vc/1
3. several other cannabinoids available in cannabis -- in addition to naturally occurring terpenoids (oils) and flavonoids (phenols) -- have also been clinically demonstrated to possess therapeutic utility.
http://norml.org/component/zoo/category/marinol-vs-natural-cannabis
Edited by s240779 (10/24/13 05:16 PM)
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l33t
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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026831 - 10/24/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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When someone tested pure THC vs THC+terpenes, blind test , it was said that THC+terpenes was almost twice as strong as THC alone, plus the high was much better. Not a scientific test but amongst a group of people .
Why do you think some sativas are so much stronger than those 25%THC strains ? I know for a fact when I smoke a pure sativa it gets so trippy it feels like I am on 200ug of LSD. But when I smoke an indica which has more THC ( tested ) it feels boring/sedative/motivation killer, definitely less potent. Of course, it is the perception of the high that makes it feel stronger. Some people will say its the opposite.
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openmind
curious


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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: PurpleHaze147]
#19026850 - 10/24/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's a bit more complex than that....beyond just agonists and antagonists, with the way all of the cannabinoids end up interacting with each other, and the other trickle down effects on other systems, etc. I have a rather basic understanding of pharmacology, and a decent knowledge of cannabis, so I'll attempt to explain what I can.
I believe you're correct that THC is the only cannabinoid in cannabis that is actually an agonist, being a partial agonist at CB1 & CB2.
The other cannabinoids that you listed do have some antagonistic properties on the cannabinoid receptors...But they mostly have low affinity for CB1 & CB2 in comparison to THC (this is all very generally speaking)...and I'd say this is part of the answer to what you're asking. Affinity is the drugs ability to bind to a receptor. Depending on the affinity a drug has for a receptor, the duration & strength of antagonist or agonist activity will vary. So CBD, as an example, isn't all that "sticky" to CB1 & CB2 (low affinity), where as THC is stickier to these receptors (higher affinity).
So these other cannabinoids don't cause much "blocking" of THC's effects via antagonism, because the THC has a higher affinity for the receptors.
Then there's all sorts of other actions that some cannabinoids have...Cannabidiol(CBD), for example....CBD indirectly stimulates endogenous cannabinoid (cannabinoids naturally produced in the body) signaling by suppressing the enzyme "fatty acid amide hydroxylase" (FAAH). It is this enzyme which breaks down anandamide. Anandamide is an endogenous cannabinoid naturally produced & found in the body, which binds to cannabinoid receptors, favoring the CB1 receptor.
Because that enzyme, FAAH, is suppressed by CBD, less FAAH means more anandamide remains present in the body for a longer duration. More anandamide means greater CB1 activation .
....and that's just one aspect of CBD, imagine all the other complex things going on with the rest of the cannabinoids.
And there's also well over 100 different terpenes in cannabis that have a quite an influence on the collective effects of the cannabinoids. These terepenes are what give cannabis its aroma & flavor. The terepenes are also the pre-cursors of cannabinoids, they are the building blocks of the cannabinoids. By themselves they're not really all that "psychoactive", but they do have an influence on the effects of cannabis. Picking one for an example, the terepene myrcene makes the blood brain barrier a bit more permeable for cannabinoids and allows them to cross the barrier more easily, generally potentiating and prolonging the effects of THC and the collective effects of the herb in general.
Each strain has a unique profile of terepenes....I believe these terepenes are the key players in cannabis having a broad spectrum of effects & medicinal uses, differing from strain to strain, more so than the cannabinoids themselves. Sure the cannabinoids are the primary psychoactive substances in the herb, but the terepenes are like the "seasoning" on top, that really bring certain aspects out and add a "Zest" to the effects . Influencing things like, how quickly the effects come on, how long the effects last, how clear headed the effects are, how analgesic the effects are, etc etc. So it's each strains unique profile of terepenes, on top of the unique profile of cannabinoids, that gives us all these various effects.
Shit gets all sorts of complex when it comes to medicinal plants. All medicinal plants tend to have a wide spectrum of chemicals that interact with each other so very elegantly, potentiating and balancing each other out, to provide us with the beautiful effects that they do.
-OM

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Edited by openmind (10/24/13 08:17 PM)
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openmind
curious


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Re: Why is THC alone not considered as strong as cannabis? [Re: openmind]
#19026861 - 10/24/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Edited by openmind (10/24/13 08:18 PM)
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