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washerbutton
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Registered: 10/14/13
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Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED*
#19021669 - 10/23/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Post deleted by washerbuttonReason for deletion: Useless answers
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jackalope9517
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Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 380
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure [Re: washerbutton]
#19021819 - 10/23/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Depends on which grains and manure as well.
Many have claimed, including RR i believe, that Rye > WBS. So which one are you comparing with which manure? Horse or cow?
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washerbutton
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED* [Re: jackalope9517]
#19022351 - 10/23/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Post deleted by washerbuttonReason for deletion: Useless answers
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure [Re: washerbutton]
#19023174 - 10/24/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's a quite complex question and you won't get a simple answer that fits the way you're looking at it. I can explain, a little... Forgive a long post. Hope you enjoy a good myco-read!
The final success of your grow determines the BE. If a substrate has higher potential but particular requirements for use it will likely appear to perform poorly if those requirements are not met. Grains clearly have more potential as they're the heart and focus of the grow. However they don't have the means to fulfill that potential alone. They need large amounts of water, more than they hold at any time.
For this reason, if you fruit straight-grains and treat altogether like you would bulk substrates they will fall short of the results with bulk substrate. This would seem to invert the BE relativity since the solitary grains cannot use their full capability.
Here's a simple way to look at it. If you have 30 pounds of flour, 5 pounds of sugar, unlimited tap water, but only 3 eggs, how much cake can you make? ... How about if you had 30 eggs?
This applies not only to water for grains, but to grains for watermass as well. This means that if you have too much watermass and nearly no nutrition there's too little resource available for all the stages of recovery, super-expanding colonization, networking and consolidation, and fruiting.
The best BE will have the ideal balance of nutrition to water. (This is of course considering per a certain genetic set) Since there is actually no single scale of "nutrition" it's not really feasible to attempt describing a ratio of nutritive components to water that is ideal. The way to go about it seems to be giving as much water as they will take to flush what they'll flush.
The main differences between grow techniques is how one chooses to make this happen.
PFtek uses vermiculite to expand the amount of mycelium living off of a bit of brown rice suspended in the verm, effectively making an extra-large mycelium 'sponge' that stores water for the coming flush. This is dunked for 20-24 hours before every flush, and one must be careful to lose little moisture in fruiting these cakes naked in a SGFC. The effective premise is having 3 times the mycelium grow in order to hold the water. They have good biological efficiency capability despite this.
Bulk substrate teks use broken-up colonized grains to then colonize a large amount of low-nutrition watermass substrate. It has a few steps of damage/recovery and hyper-expansion that begin to chip a bit away at BE capability. This may not manifest clearly due to related variable factors and because the large substrates yield large amounts, but these grows are known to not have the BE capability of PF cakes. The ratio of nutritive value to watermass substrate greatly effects the manifestation of yield-per-flush. With a very conservative amount of grains spread widely over much watermass sub, the first flush will show a majority of the total yield. With a very high amount of grains to watermass sub it will require additional water (aka dunks) for subsequent flushes to finish collecting the majority of yield potential.
The ratio one uses and how one grows has effects on BE capability. If you fail after the first flush or only take one you'll appear to have a higher BE per grains from using more bulk substrate per the grains, thus having diluted the nutritional value over water seems the most successful. If you can rehydrate the sub several times you can tie that same value by providing the necessary water via that rehydration.
Straight-grain teks have never really had a great way to be hydrated (particularly because they can be nearly impossible to dunk), which is problematic since the grains easily lose moisture when exposed. They have their pure nutritional power but little water to match up to it and not enough is provided in time before fruiting is done. Very high BE potential, very low BE actualization.
So certain factors like the reductions of BE involved in bulk sub teks reduce BE capability while others effect the actual BE that comes to be measured. The two are not quite the same!
Providing the most ample water per nutritional value while minimizing or eliminating BE-reduction factors will allow then achieve the highest BE reachable.
My seed & plastic tech eliminates several small factors of BE-reduction, such as colony destructions and hyper-expansions over watermass, providing over time as much water as the grain sub cake can/will use to fruit (lots, similar to what we hydrate bulk subs with). This is done not by having all the water colonized & on-hand for a single expending flush but by allowing the substrate and the mycelium themselves to absorb small amounts of water they're in. It works for the same reason that dunking does but is done during flushes, not between them. There are additional advantages such as no surface myc recovery times, no destroying pins, no handling or shocking... I've not done more than loose BE figurings and haven't payed mind to it for some time, but it's been clear for me that this has given me the best biological efficiencies I've seen yet of all the various ways of growing I've tried. Has to be done right though.
In this sense, the main difference simply comes down to either... applying more water at once to flush almost all one's yield at first, accepting the disadvantages of a somewhat reduced BE potential and risking a colonizing run in unsterile environs, or... applying small amounts of water a couple time per flushes, requiring a little patience to draw one's full yield over several flushes, but with some other process advantages as well.
I like to discuss BE, but what I really like to discuss is BE-per-(blank). BE-per-electricity, BE-per-work, BE-per-space, BE-per-money, stuff like that!
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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jackalope9517
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Registered: 01/16/13
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure [Re: Violet]
#19024597 - 10/24/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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washerbutton
Stranger
Registered: 10/14/13
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Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED* [Re: jackalope9517]
#19024828 - 10/24/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Post deleted by washerbuttonReason for deletion: Useless answers
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure [Re: washerbutton]
#19030550 - 10/25/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah measurements have been done but they apply only to a certain genetic set and the actual grow that was measured. To throw out any numbers would be about as significant as telling you the average age of grandmothers.
BE percentages themselves vary in applicable significance as well. One could only hope to get 300%+BE from a straight-grain grow, while 170%BE from a bulk grow with 25% grain is also great, because it's the grains that are the costly ingredient. My thing is that we all grow with big amounts of grain anyway.
I can use some semi-ideal yield numbers to give you an example of how your OP question effects BE.
Quote:
Anno said: 1000 grams fresh weight from 1000 grams dry substrate is 100% biological efficiency.
2lb (908g) of brown rice (any whole grain of course, rice is my current example) makes 12-13 cups, 3 quarts, 5-6 quart jars the way we load them for use in monos.
Used in a mono, with 1.5lb (680g) coir brick before hydrated, total sub dry weight is 1588g. Say we get a nice 10oz dry from that mono, ~2830g fresh. 2830 over 1588 makes for 178%BE. However if you calculate BE just based on the grains, 2830 over 908, you get 312%BE. Using bulk substrate significantly lowers the BE in order to raise the actual yield. Using verm makes this more dramatic.
Used in 13 of my grow containers, same culture, say a solid 23g dry average per container after all flushes, 10.6oz dry ~3000g fresh. 3000 over 908 makes for 330%BE. This is both actual BE and actual yield, since gradual bottom-watering is the hydration method. I love it.
You see the yields are nearly identical. However the bulk substrate grow has a lower BE due to additional substrate being the water administration method. I feel that the slight effects on yield are due to the same thing, caused by the destruction/recovery of the initial colony and the greatly multiplied amount of mycelium that live off of the grains after expansion over bulk.
Hope that helps!
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
Edited by Violet (10/25/13 11:29 AM)
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Pestile

Registered: 05/02/13
Posts: 875
Loc: Northern Europe
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure [Re: Violet]
#19030579 - 10/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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   The Corbett Report Open Source Intelligence News
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Pestile

Registered: 05/02/13
Posts: 875
Loc: Northern Europe
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED* [Re: washerbutton]
#19035992 - 10/26/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
washerbutton said: Post deleted by washerbutton Reason for deletion: Useless answers
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: 2. Do not ask a question, and then when you get your answer, delete your original post as if we're your personal unpaid research assistants. For every poster, there's 1000 lurkers who use the search engine to find their answers and never post. Don't screw them by deleting your question, thus making the search engine return crap. Users who violate this rule will be banned for at least 3 days.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14960167#14960167
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   The Corbett Report Open Source Intelligence News
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED* [Re: Pestile]
#19036096 - 10/26/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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Useless answers? Wtf.
Wait, this is the guy that put me on ignore before his first post?! Nice. Tool.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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anne halonium
jaguarette


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Biological Efficiency Of Grains Vs Manure *DELETED* [Re: Violet]
#19036216 - 10/26/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 8 months ago) |
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relax violet, it was a troll / sock puppet
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