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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Libertarian discussions (both for and against)
#19020301 - 10/23/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thought it would be a cool idea to have a thread dedicated to discussion of the libertarian ideology! It will allow the libertarian community among the shroomery to come together and discuss the concepts and ideals as well as provide a forum for debate between both those within the movement and those who are oppose! My only request is that it remain civil.
I'll begin. Personally i am a libertarian (obviously), for a period of time however i believed in the nordic model of a social democracy. But once i began to delve deeper into economics and actual theory that quickly changed as i realized libertarian concepts are the only ones that can work in a long term sustainable manner. Personal freedom (both economic freedom and otherwise) are what ultimately leads to the greatest prosperity among all people.
Now i welcome questions, comments, opposing views, supporting views, or whatever! My hope is that this thread can become a civil debate where misconceptions about the libertarian movement can be cleared up and discussed, as there are A LOT of misconceptions about it.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19020506 - 10/23/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea I remember arguing with you all I can say is welcome to the libertarian ideology!
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19020535 - 10/23/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught] 1
#19020620 - 10/23/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Congratulations. You have escaped the clutches of the education/indoctrination complex.
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19020626 - 10/23/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said: Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though
Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19020664 - 10/23/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though
Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.
yeah i get that as well. I have yet to meet someone my age who agrees with my point of view. I just graduated high school a few months ago.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19020668 - 10/23/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Congratulations. You have escaped the clutches of the education/indoctrination complex.
glad to be free
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19020920 - 10/23/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: Thank you! yeah i openly admit i was naive and idealistic, I was arguing more out of emotion than actual models of fact and the real world. Im glad i've been able to reason my way out of it though
Well we need all the help we can get it seems that the majority of the youth want to be controlled and coddled by the State. As a junior in college the vast majority of my classmates look at me in horror when I talk about how the free market helps and uplifts every individual.
yeah i get that as well. I have yet to meet someone my age who agrees with my point of view. I just graduated high school a few months ago.
This is a function of liberal jackasses from my generation, like the terrorist William Ayers, totally over-running the educational system and the rise of public sector unionism and the tenure system in K through 12. What possible justification can there be for tenure for K-12 teachers. They don't do research.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
#19021582 - 10/23/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Libertarianism is not-misunderstood--it is misrepresented by the Media-Cocksuckers who blow the democrats and republicans. It is hated by both parties because it seriously interferes with government control and derails the gravy train that the (R) and (D) have used for the last 100 years to gain power and keep it.
And now, before everyone starts sucking everyones dick about how great Libertarianism is--or can be--the challenge isn't convincing other libertarians the challenge is convincing people like Sweeper and Mush that the government isn't their friend and that that big cherry red apple the democrats dangle before their eyes is really a shit-sandwich painted with lipstick.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19021650 - 10/23/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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well that was one of the points of this thread. I was hoping more people who are against it would comment so debates could be had.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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psilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19022122 - 10/23/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money . Is that right ? I've been to countrys like this in South America . I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets . At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary , freedom isn't always a good thing . To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
#19022165 - 10/23/13 09:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilynut said: So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money . Is that right ? I've been to countrys like this in South America . I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets . At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary , freedom isn't always a good thing . To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .
Not exactly. Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state. And the people of the state have a much stronger vote at the local/state level because their vote isn't diluted by the votes of the other states. so when a state has a policy you disagree with, if you are in a minority you move to a state where the laws/taxes are more to your liking, or you organize to change the policies in the states. This prevents the people of say, Montana, to have their laws dictated by the people in the big states--California, Texas, etc. and allows them autonomy. that is how it is supposed to work in this republic. Instead we have a big nanny federal government who decides for everyone and destroys the individual democracy of the states.
What hurts the country is the Federal Governments one size fits all bullshit.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19022178 - 10/23/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
psilynut said: So libertarians believe in freedom and a govt with little power and and no money . Is that right ? I've been to countrys like this in South America . I've been to places where the government takes in such a small amount of taxes cops can't even enforce traffic rules . You can speed, run lights , go the wrong way on one way streets . At first I thought , awesome no cops! But it not awesome, it's sucks , it's scary , freedom isn't always a good thing . To me libertarians are just tea party republicans who are afraid to admit it because the Republican Party has become such tragic train wreck of ridiculousness .
Not exactly. Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state. And the people of the state have a much stronger vote at the local/state level because their vote isn't diluted by the votes of the other states. so when a state has a policy you disagree with, if you are in a minority you move to a state where the laws/taxes are more to your liking, or you organize to change the policies in the states. This prevents the people of say, Montana, to have their laws dictated by the people in the big states--California, Texas, etc. and allows them autonomy. that is how it is supposed to work in this republic. Instead we have a big nanny federal government who decides for everyone and destroys the individual democracy of the states.
What hurts the country is the Federal Governments one size fits all bullshit.
cant really add anything else. He hit the nail on the head. And what the government should be funding is completely different from what it is funding. Libertarians believe that the government should absolutely be funded for specific functions. But beyond that little to no funding.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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TalesfromtheTrypt
The Tryptkeeper


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
#19022341 - 10/23/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think libertarianism (real libertarianism, not Ron Paul's) can appeal to people across the current political spectrum, because it's fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Many people only vote Republican because they're fiscally conservative and either disagree with or are indifferent to the more socially conservative wing of the party. In contrast, many people vote Democrat because the social conservatism they see in the current Republican party scares them and they don't really feel strongly about fiscal policy or maybe are even fiscally conservative themselves. For them all it comes down to at election time is whether they feel more strongly on social issues or fiscal issues, because there's no real alternative to Democrats and Republicans to people who don't want to feel like they're throwing their vote away. Plus today's political environment has people voting against the party they don't like instead of for the party they do like. That's why libertarianism is particularly attractive today, if any party in the next few decades wins a single congressional seat, it will be the Libertarian Party. So take your pick, there's plenty of appeal and it would get plenty of votes if people actually viewed it as a viable 3rd party.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
#19022423 - 10/23/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Libertarian socialism, yes. Libertarian capitalism, no. The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.
-------------------- Workers of Shroomery Unite!
Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction. Fuck you NSA
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: Smokey420] 1
#19022757 - 10/23/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smokey420 said: Libertarian socialism, yes. Libertarian capitalism, no. The idea of a libertarian capitalist is an American phenomenon. It is laughed at in most countries, and comes very close to fascism.
What are you talking about? libertarianism is the anti-thesis of facism. LOL
fas·cism noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
: a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government
That definition--from Merriam Webster--sounds like the Obama regime to me.
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psilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19022858 - 10/23/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.
So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives 2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick? I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut] 1
#19022889 - 10/23/13 11:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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states that are badly run would have people leave the state, opting for states that are run better. Much like how if a business is badly run it stops getting customers. If people want better education for their children they are going to go to a school with higher standards, or move to a state that has more emphasis on education. People will move to areas that better suit their wants and needs. If Mississippi does a shit job at running the state everyone will leave and they have an incentive to get their shit together.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psilynut]
#19022917 - 10/23/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilynut said:
Quote:
Libertarians think is up to the states to run the police and to collect taxes and money for the support of the state.
So what would happen to a state like Mississippi that receives 2.50 in federal aid for every dollar they pay in taxes? Whats worse than brokedick? I know what would happen to my state since we pay 1 dollar and get 1 dollar. Im guessing in the other states that get more money than they pay taxes would have to be raised or just get used to things sucking more than they already do.
Many unnecessary regulations and programs would be cut as well so federal spending would drop dramatically. Mississippi would also have an incentive to be run more like a business and focus on profitability instead of federal dependence.
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Smokey420



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Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: starfire_xes]
#19022953 - 10/24/13 12:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” -Benito Mussolini
This quote exactly describes the philosophy of Capitalist Libertarianism.
-------------------- Workers of Shroomery Unite!
Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction. Fuck you NSA
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