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Offlineivi
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LSD Microdosing
    #18993960 - 10/18/13 04:08 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Some early experimental studies with LSD suggested that doses of LSD too small to cause any noticeable effects may improve mood and creativity. Prompted by recent discussion of this claim and the purely anecdotal subsequent evidence for it, I decided to run a well-powered randomized blind trial of 3-day LSD microdoses from September 2012 to March 2013. No beneficial effects reached statistical-significance and there were worrisome negative trends. LSD microdosing did not help me.



http://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: ivi]
    #18993993 - 10/18/13 04:48 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Power times prior times benefit minus cost of experimentation: 0.2−0.8×0.5×3751−80−700= -405 to +720. If we cut out the legal risk, the range is +295-1420 and the experiment well worth doing; our estimate of the legal risk and the effect size determine whether we find it worth doing.




:lol:


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: Konyap]
    #18994641 - 10/18/13 11:24 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I like that author's thoughts on the psychedelic experience at large.


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: Me_Roy]
    #18994747 - 10/18/13 11:56 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

so it didnt help?

good story


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Offlineallseeingike
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: SnowDaze]
    #18994779 - 10/18/13 12:07 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Ssaving for later


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: allseeingike]
    #18994801 - 10/18/13 12:14 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

It's hard to arrive at statistical evidence using a three-day test-trial and a 1 person sample size...


Interesting read, but not much relevance or importance other than analyzing the specific mentality of one man.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #18994971 - 10/18/13 12:54 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
It's hard to arrive at statistical evidence using a three-day test-trial and a 1 person sample size...


Interesting read, but not much relevance or importance other than analyzing the specific mentality of one man.




Sure, but he reminds us that the burden of proof falls on those contending that a sub-threshold dose has effect. (Jumbo shrimp anyone?)

Anecdote =/= data, but it does put the prevailing assumption (one based in anecdotal evidence) into perspective.


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: Me_Roy] * 2
    #18995356 - 10/18/13 02:16 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
It's hard to arrive at statistical evidence using a three-day test-trial and a 1 person sample size...


Interesting read, but not much relevance or importance other than analyzing the specific mentality of one man.




Sure, but he reminds us that the burden of proof falls on those contending that a sub-threshold dose has effect. (Jumbo shrimp anyone?)

Anecdote =/= data, but it does put the prevailing assumption (one based in anecdotal evidence) into perspective.






Actually, an anecdote is data. The first LSD trip was reported as an anecdote, then an attempt was made to repeat the results. Clinical trials involve self-reporting of effects by trial subjects. Aka "anecdotal evidence."



Secondly, I think KingKnowledge was a little overly generous / kind with his assessment. I see far more / bigger issues with his methodology than just the microscopic sample size. Let's have a look:



Quote:

The self-experiment was simple: I calculated how many doses I needed and whether the experiment was worth running, ordered 2 250μg tabs off Silk Road, designed the experiment (I dissolved one in distilled water, put the solution in one jar & tap water in the other, and took them in pairs of 3-day blocks), ran it, and analyzed it.






Now, to be fair, he does point out some of the bigger problems, himself. (Later after too much dry blah-blah-blah for my taste.) 



Quote:

There are 3 major potential problems with this experiment: the results may not generalize beyond me, the tabs may not have contained substantial levels of LSD, and the LSD may have degraded while being stored.






Yeah, I'd call those pretty major problems. Especially the second. For his "scientific" study, he is basing his dosing regimen on the word of an online drug dealer. I'd be pretty surprised if the strength of those tabs was accurate. In fact, much data I've seen seems to indicate that your average LSD has not been laid this strong since the 1960's. Modern acid tending to be considerably less. So, even if these tabs were 150ug, supposedly strong for modern street acid (and really, who but the most knowledgeable and connected, or without awesome analytical equipment, could ever tell the difference?)  That would skew his doses dramatically.  Even if the tabs were actually 150ug (again, to my understanding this would be on the strong side for modern acid) that would bring his intended dose of 10ug down to 6ug.  Or almost half of what he intended to take.


Actually, let's get this out of the way real quick. According to Erowid:



Quote:

A single tab usually contains between 30 - 100 ug of LSD.






Now I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (a DEA publication, perhaps?) stating that typical blotter would be around 75-100ug per hit.


So what if this was even "typical" blotter?  If he actually ended up with 100ug hits, his test dose would have been 4ug each or less than half.  But let's assume this dealer didn't want a bad rep, and they're at least 150ug.



Long story short, the dose could be way less than he assumed, and that is still assuming 100% dissolution and 0% degradation.



Can we fairly assume that simply dropping a blotter into a jar of water (as was his method) will definitely extract 100% of the LSD?  When I took blotters I always macerated / masticated them a bit, as they sat in my mouth. I am rather curious though, if plain distilled water would be enough to pull 100% of the LSD out, with no agitation, maceration, etc.


Then, how big were these jars? Is it possible the oxygen / air in the jar itself (if large enough) could potentially degrade the LSD in solution over a number of days?  Apparently someone else made a similar comment, pointing out that LSD left in a jar in the fridge would be exposed to light and oxygen, if not a little heat. Which he actually attempts to refute with:



Quote:

LSD does have a reputation for being fragile. However, Darko’s claims seem to be entirely false and an excellent example of proving too much. If LSD really did degrade within weeks under the most optimal conditions (and presumably just days under more normal conditions), how did anyone ever consume LSD?







What Joe Science here fails to take into account, is that LSD is not normally stored in solution,  in clear containers just sitting exposed in a fridge for long periods of time. He even goes on to quote Shulgin, and the authors of a particular study, in terms of LSD's stability, conveniently ignoring terms like:


"As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure"


Not "just a tiny bit here and there," but rather "free."


"stored in amber glass or nontransparent polyethylene containers"



But hey... jar in the fridge... same thing.... right?






Then we come to the chosen dose. 10ug.  Assuming he even got anywhere near the dose he intended, why assume that 10ug was a good place to test at? He says, in his write-up:



Quote:

The old research literature is mixed but suggests that LSD doesn’t do much under 20μg. Nonetheless, when I read "The Heretic" about James Fadiman’s ideas about "micro-dosing" and an earlier interview (I later read his The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide), and that it seemed to work well for a variety of people, the old musings came back to mind. A normal LSD dose is 100μg+, and a micro-dose 10μg. This brings micro-doses into the sub-hallucinatory range, and removes most of my safety concerns





So we can see here, he actually picked 10ug because he was afraid!!! (:lol:) of what a higher dose might do and while the literature may be a bit "mixed," it seems generally agreed that "LSD doesn't do much under 20ug.  He had this data to start with.  And this is one of the points on which I think his experiment is psychologically flawed. Actually, several of them. He started out:




1- Skeptical of the value of psychedelics or the psychedelic experience. For further reading, see "placebo effect" "nocebo effect" etc etc.


2- Afraid of a dose 20ug or higher.


3- Firmly, repeatedly reassured via scientific literature that less than 20ug seems mostly ineffective


4- And I'd even argue "Biased against the idea of micro-dosing working" but I guess that's up for debate.  But I think points 1 and 3 are highly relevant. Especially point 3. When double blind drug trials take place, they dont begin with the patient already having beliefs about whether the drug will work, or be effective, etc, and the don't normally begin with the patient already having reviewed extensive existing scientific literature about that drug.  In these ways, his experiment was poisoned from the start.




And on that note, I think a quick reference to erowid is appropriate:



LSD Oral Dosages
Threshold 20 ug
Light         25 - 75 ug
Common         50 - 150 ug
Strong         150 - 400 ug
Heavy         400 + ug




So according to erowid (and I'd imagine much literature) LSD doesn't start to even have the threshold (barely perceptible for some, probably imperceptible to others) of traditional "desired" effects until around 20ug, with "light" effects closer to 25-75ug. In other words, even if this guy did take the 10ug he calculated for, he probably would have to take 4-5 times as much before his perception begun to be altered in even the slightest obvious manner. And I doubt he got a full 10ug.


Further, a study (which amusingly he considers "flawed") had some seeming success showing LSD as a kind of "nootropic"-- but with... considerably higher dosing:



Quote:

Fadiman was part of the team which ran the Psychedelics in problem-solving experiment, administering 50μg doses of LSD - close to microdosing levels - to people working on unsolved technical problems, while they tried thinking about the problems again; they apparently often solved them.






Now this study had some apparent success at the 50ug level. So not only does he have doubts going in about LSD's helpful efficacy at all, he knows it's "practically ineffective / inactive" at under 20ug (a dose he is concerned / afraid to approach) and a study indicating efficacy was at 5 times his intended (possibly not reached) dose. 



I'd say that, combined with his prior doubt would be enough to poison any "objectivity" or real accuracy.





That being said, I've experimented with micro-dosing morning glory seeds with some interesting results. Nothing even approaching the rigor of what this guy did. But mine were personal, just to see how it affected me, and were not intended as any kind of "proof" of anything (beyond what effect it had in me.)  Doses  between a couple hundred mg of seed material, up to around 1-1.5g were tested over a number of trials. At the higher end it was noticeable I'd taken something.  Mood improvement and slight change in my thought patterns were the most obvious effects.


And that actually raises another interesting point-- at the level he was playing with, the effects were more likely to be along the lines of a very mild nootropic or antidepressant. And those types of drugs are rarely, if ever immediately apparent. Even if you're suffering from depression, or cognitive impairment, let alone if you're not.


Anyway, this post has gone way longer than I intended.....




tl;dr


Study needs improvement. Researcher is biased.


--------------------
------------------------
I am me. We are You.


Edited by CidneyIndole (10/19/13 09:22 AM)


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18996027 - 10/18/13 05:00 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the close analysis, CidneyIndole, longest post I've seen in a while...


I did notice other errors with the report than what I mentioned before, but didn't feel like going into as many details as you did LOL

Definitely a sham of an article though. Micro-dosing can be quite amazing as i've heard.


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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #18996272 - 10/18/13 06:02 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

from what I understand of microdosing--  there is NO effect immediately rather the effect is cumulative over a period of days and weeks.  The doses are small enough that the body does not develop a tolerance and after a week or more definite mood elevation and sensory or perception enhancements are possible.

what this experimenter did was successfully waste two tabs of 'cid


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:


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OfflineLSDreams
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: ivi]
    #18998287 - 10/19/13 03:32 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Ive heard of this mircrodosing before to help mood etc. So I thought I might pull out my ol' stash and try it on a dead sunday at work. I only took half a hit thinking that the stuff is so old and weak that it might not even do anything at all. Boy was I wrong.. I cant remember exactly how i felt, but I am sure that i felt like shit for the rest of that day.

I guess the lesson is.. dont take psychedelics whenever there is no opportunity to chill and relax if need be, becasue I cant say how many times I just wanted to simply sit down for a second and catch up to what was actually going on. Oh, and that sunday wasnt dead at all. :sad:


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OfflineLSDreams
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: travelleler]
    #18998292 - 10/19/13 03:33 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

travelleler said:
sensory or perception enhancements are possible




Do explain... :peace:


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OfflineFunnyLight
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Re: LSD Microdosing *DELETED* [Re: LSDreams]
    #18999548 - 10/19/13 02:27 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by FunnyLight

Reason for deletion: dumb



--------------------
The most powerful drive through the ascent of man, is pleasure in his own skill.
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Home of delicious "Psychedelic Nyotaimori".
Thanks Lemmingp for that.

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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: FunnyLight]
    #19001246 - 10/19/13 09:56 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FunnyLight said:


To say that micro-dosing takes days to buildup and have an effect is completely unfounded in my, and many others experiences. I do not know where you get this information from?






i'm probably talking out of my ass- sorry  :publicfart:

since I have zero experience micro-dosing LSD my views are very skewed.  Ps. Azurescens make an excellent micro dose for similar purposes.  .1g or less will build up over a few days to a similar plane of travel... you'd think it would stop working after a while because of tolerance but the consensus is that there is a inverse reaction where the effect actually increases over time-- almost like the body becomes "tuned" or something


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:


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Offlinehuffinglue
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: travelleler]
    #19002211 - 10/20/13 02:04 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Plus this guy put one of the tabs in tap water. The chlorine in that probably destroyed any actives in that bottle.


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I fucking hate grammer nazis! Yes, I can't spell. Yes, I don't have perfect grammer. I post from my phone and dont give a shit about people whose lifes are so boring they get off on putting people down for not having perfect fucking grammer, even though they know excactly what there saying.. Fuck You. It's just a ride mang...


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Offlinekadian420
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: Konyap]
    #19002374 - 10/20/13 03:15 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

i do this with my aborts. i eat small quantities on the daily


--------------------
I expect that any constitutional document that emerges from Philadelphia will be as compromised as our Declaration of Independency. I am increasingly persuaded that the Earth belongs exclusively to the living, and that one generation has no more right to bind another to its laws and judgements, than one independent nation has the right to command another. -Thomas Jefferson-


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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: kadian420]
    #19004882 - 10/20/13 07:21 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kadian420 said:
i do this with my aborts. i eat small quantities on the daily





and how does it go??

what do you experience?


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:


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Offlineminestrone
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: travelleler]
    #19368145 - 01/04/14 03:04 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Hi. I'm new but very interested in this convo and hope to see more activity here. I'm beginning to experiment with Lucy microdosing to help improve mood/empathy/creativity/. I'm also in recovery from alcohol and am hoping it'll help me toe the line.

Past experiences have included ibogaine, ayahuasca, salvia, psilocybin.

I'm basing this experiment on:

* Fadiman's sub-perceptual dosing guidelines (10 mcg, or about 1/5 typical dose)
* User reports, reddit
* User reports, SR
* User reports, Erowid

I researched quality vendors and procured 10x 140 mcg needlepoint unperforated blotter. While alcohol appears to be preferred medium, it won't work for me and I'm not sure I trust plain water (or any of the methodologies described) so I decided instead to cut the blotter with an Xacto knife and place the mini-blotter under my tongue for 20 minutes.

Problem is, I could not get the dose smaller than approximately 15-17 mcg, cutting the blotter in half once, twice, three times.

As I've been highly resistant to most psychedelics, I decided to try the  higher dose, and if it became problematic, would revisit the alcohol/distilled water approach.

I have since taken two microdoses. The first one was four days ago on New Years day. About an hour and a half after taking it, I notice subtle positive changes, including improved mode, more awareness of nature on my walk, increased appreciation of music, interesting synchronicity, heightened emotional state (positive), feelings of appreciation, improved clarity of thought (felt like little epiphanies). Negatives: felt sorta speedy, and at times a bit pissy with my spouse. Worked through it with some CBT.

I took the second dose yesterday, and remembered that my 'mini-blotters' were not terribly uniform, and as I had an easy day, decided to opt for the larger one. I would assume it to be closer to 20 mcg?

This was not a positive experience, and clearly not sub-threshold, as I was aware of the drug's presence for most of the day. I was very speedy and felt 'itchy' about what to do, what to wear, how to proceed, how to get organized, all of which is very uncharacteristic for me. I was more grouchy than happy, and frustrated about my mental state. (Unfortunately, during the peak I had to deal with an unpleasant and rather dramatic tenant situation, which probably didn't help.) I found myself in an uncomfortable state most of the day, and interestingly, my mental facilities felt very compromised. I couldn't follow simple logic in some situations; in a social setting, I was rude and interrupted people, as if I could not follow the conversation.

So: my conclusion to date is that I need to figure out a way to effectively reduce the dose closer to the 10 mcg amount as recommended in the research!

I'm very interested in the conversation about how long it'll take to improve cognitive clarity and mood in a lasting way. I feel as if I've burned a lot of brain cells with alcohol, and aging in general (I'm 54) may be contributing to a declining memory; I don't know.

But I do plan to keep at it and would be interested in additional feedback from any of you who are involved in similar self experimentation.

Thanks for reading and Happy New Year.

M


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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: minestrone]
    #19368254 - 01/04/14 03:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

54 and still knows where to score some legit LSD?? 

:manofapproval:  :seriousthumbsup:  :fuckinawesome:  :youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:  :kaneclap:


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:


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Offlineminestrone
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Re: LSD Microdosing [Re: travelleler]
    #19368985 - 01/04/14 06:04 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

travelleler said:
54 and still knows where to score some legit LSD?? 

:manofapproval:  :seriousthumbsup:  :fuckinawesome:  :youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:  :kaneclap:




Haha, travelleler, I am very dedicated to this cause. Gotta say, even my kids are impressed.

BTW, I forgot to mention in the previous post that much like another micro-doser whose account I read somewhere, I note more positive effects the day after. For instance, today I'm thinking very clearly and creatively and I am much better focused. I have renewed enthusiasm for projects I dreaded earlier. I'm taking much better care of myself (she says as she munches on her healthy green post-workout salad.) I'm finding my hubby's irritating behaviors much less irritating. :wink:

Yep, definitely something going on here.

Full disclosure (as I don't consider this a rigorous scientific experiment in any way, but I do try to approach it therapeutically): my new experience with Lucy follows an initial one with Molly a couple weeks ago. For those who are familiar with it, I used MAPS' MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy protocol. Excellent results to date, but more work to do.

As a side note, I had my first experience with mushrooms a few months ago after reading compelling but early research about its efficacy in helping alcoholics achieve sobriety.

I've learned a lot from this forum and am very grateful for those who post here.

Best,

M


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