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InvisiblePocketLady
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Nazi war criminal funeral protest * 1
    #18984720 - 10/16/13 03:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24544380

In Italy a German SS officer convicted of killing over 300 people has had his funeral stopped by protesters.  Apparently the Vatican but a blanket ban on any RC church in Rome holding the funeral.  Eventually another church often associated with far-right views offered to hold the service. 

So does this man have a right to a normal funeral?  Personally I think he does, because more than anything a funeral is for the friends and family of the deceased, and they shouldn't be denied that right.  Secondly, I think it's incredibly hypocritical of the Vatican to deny the funeral coming from a church that apparently preaches forgiveness.  But then that's not really very surprising.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #18984797 - 10/16/13 04:16 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It's no surprise at all.

Not that its truly relevant, but I'd personally let him have a funeral, what does it matter? It's not as if they are celebrating his darkness.

Men like him exist and always will exist, gathering in large cluster fucks of other naked apes with rags draped over their skin and collectively hooting and hollering and trying to stop a traditional praxis for the dead from unfolding won't bring back the people he killed, nor will it prevent men like him from existing in the future.
:monkeydance:

I don't think they themselves even know what they are trying to accomplish or what it means, or rather, how meaningless it is.



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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady]
    #18985045 - 10/16/13 07:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24544380

In Italy a German SS officer convicted of killing over 300 people has had his funeral stopped by protesters.  Apparently the Vatican but a blanket ban on any RC church in Rome holding the funeral.  Eventually another church often associated with far-right views offered to hold the service. 

So does this man have a right to a normal funeral?  Personally I think he does, because more than anything a funeral is for the friends and family of the deceased, and they shouldn't be denied that right.  Secondly, I think it's incredibly hypocritical of the Vatican to deny the funeral coming from a church that apparently preaches forgiveness.  But then that's not really very surprising.




Not to mention the Vaticans participation with the Nazi's during the war. (from what I've heard)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Icelander]
    #18985406 - 10/16/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If I remember correctly, pope Pious XII was the arch-bishop in Munich where he developed his friendship with Hitler before becoming the pope.
Not only did the Vatican help the Nazis, they also helped the Ustaše, one of the many groups committing genocide against Jews and other people during the war that there seems to be little mention of for reasons unknown to me.


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18986714 - 10/16/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
If I remember correctly, pope Pious XII was the arch-bishop in Munich where he developed his friendship with Hitler before becoming the pope.
Not only did the Vatican help the Nazis, they also helped the Ustaše, one of the many groups committing genocide against Jews and other people during the war that there seems to be little mention of for reasons unknown to me.




More info on Pope Pius XII


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #18986717 - 10/16/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The Nazis infringed on the liberty of others and now they are trying to infringe on the liberty of a dead Nazi. So much for being the bigger people... though it's not like they are gassing anyone. That the Catholic church would deny a funeral seems a bit petty for such a powerful organization. Seems to go against everything they claim to be for.

Nobody expected the inquisition either. :shrug:


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rahz]
    #18987726 - 10/16/13 07:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nobody expected the inquisition either.




Surprise! :birthday:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady]
    #18987783 - 10/16/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see what the big deal is, people want to stare at his corpse being buried :shrug:

Strange priorities people have, "fuck this guy nobody going to watch his corpse get buried"


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18987844 - 10/16/13 07:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It is not the issue; it is all about control.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18987858 - 10/16/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Idk about that, there could be something sexual behind this :strokebeard:... what exactly do they want with his body?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18987896 - 10/16/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The 'sieg heil' salute was actually code for a male erection.

:themoreyouknow:


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18988386 - 10/16/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is not the issue; it is all about control.




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady]
    #18989777 - 10/17/13 07:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

When I was in the 1st grade, the Israeli Masad captured Adolf Eichmann. He was a major figure in the deportation of Jews, Gypsies, Gays, and enemies of the Nazi state to the death camps. This is a Wiki account:

According to David Cesarani, a leading Holocaust historian and Research Professor in History of the Royal Holloway, University of London, Eichmann is quoted thus:
"Long live Germany. Long live Argentina. Long live Austria. These are the three countries with which I have been most connected and which I will not forget. I greet my wife, my family, and my friends. I am ready. We'll meet again soon, as is the fate of all men. I die believing in God."
Shortly after the execution, Eichmann's body was cremated in a specially designed furnace, and a stretcher on tracks was used to place the body into it. The next morning, 1 June, his ashes were scattered at sea over the Mediterranean, beyond the territorial waters of Israel by an Israeli Navy patrol boat. This was to ensure that there could be no future memorial and that no country would serve as his final resting place.

Lastly:

Eichmann's son, Ricardo, who was born after World War II, says he harbours no resentment toward Israel for executing his father. He explained that his father's lack of remorse caused "difficult emotions" for the Eichmann family, and that he was unable to grasp his father's "following orders" argument to excuse his actions. Ricardo is now a professor of archaeology at the German Archaeological Institute.

I have to ask myself about these guys, why family members have not essentially divorced themselves from these monsters. There are interesting stories about the offspring and close relatives of major Nazis like Heinrich Himmler. Some have abjectly refused to become parents for fear that they might transfer psychopathic tendencies, or risk having modern Nazis try to resurrect another Himmler. If I was related to a Jeffrey Dahmer, or a Lee Harvey Oswald, I would not pay my respects at a their funeral. They would not have respect in life or death. The burial, or should I say, alleged burial at sea of Osama Bin Laden, was similar to Himmler's disposal inasmuch as there was to be no land or grave to serve as some rallying point for his supporters after his death. Frankly, I feel the refusal to conduct a funeral or bury a mass-murderer in hallowed ground is completely justified, given the symbolism. It is a profanation of the sacred. Family members paying respects means that there is respect for this man. Bullshit I say to that "blood is thicker than water" saying, and I am not paying respect to a monster. People can't extricate themselves from social programming. Ever hear the mother of a killer on the news? "He was a good boy..." Yeah, until his pathology overwhelmed any goodness. In that case, the parents need intensive therapy to assuage guilt and feelings of misplaced responsibility. If I weren't so civilized, I'd piss on the Nazi's grave.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18989809 - 10/17/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And here I thought we were all one. :hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18992250 - 10/17/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It is a profanation of the sacred.




I disagree.
I'm not sure if you are saying it is a profanation of what you find sacred or the sacred in general. (not even sure what the latter would be.)

If one can draw ecstasy and/or meaning and wisdom from it, its no more or less 'spiritual' or 'sacred' than anything else.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Icelander]
    #18992432 - 10/17/13 07:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And here I thought we were all one. :hissyfit:




Sorry. I don't like Nazis, ex-Nazis, Neo-Nazis, or Nazi sympathizers, including family members of Nazis. :shrug: I really wonder about the moral compass of some people. I don't want to hear about forgiveness from people who generally ridicule anything Christian, except when the concept suits a lesser concern, like 'respect' for a dead man. Forgiveness for a participant in Nazi genocide speaks more to some covert sympathy with a Nazi than it speaks to people's profound ability to forgive. Perhaps the notion of genocide just escapes people who are too quick to give consideration to a man whose life after the horror doesn't speak to a life of restitution. I'm all for forgiveness when forgiveness is ardently sought, but I have no indication of that.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 5
    #18992486 - 10/17/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And here I thought we were all one. :hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #18994178 - 10/18/13 05:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

I don't want to hear about forgiveness from people who generally ridicule anything Christian, except when the concept suits a lesser concern, like 'respect' for a dead man.




That's too bad, personally I'm not christian and do not follow christian standards of morality. So while I oppose the ideological violence and physical/political oppression christianity has imposed for 2000 years, that doesn't mean I'm beyond granting some basic decency to them (such as freedom to care for their dead) :shrug:


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18994371 - 10/18/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
And here I thought we were all one. :hissyfit:




Sorry. I don't like Nazis, ex-Nazis, Neo-Nazis, or Nazi sympathizers, including family members of Nazis. :shrug: I really wonder about the moral compass of some people. I don't want to hear about forgiveness from people who generally ridicule anything Christian, except when the concept suits a lesser concern, like 'respect' for a dead man. Forgiveness for a participant in Nazi genocide speaks more to some covert sympathy with a Nazi than it speaks to people's profound ability to forgive. Perhaps the notion of genocide just escapes people who are too quick to give consideration to a man whose life after the horror doesn't speak to a life of restitution. I'm all for forgiveness when forgiveness is ardently sought, but I have no indication of that.




I don't see how forgiveness for someone who was a participant in Nazi genocide is in any way sympathizing with what happened regardless of whether the person asked for forgiveness or not. One of the basic tenets of Christianity is forgiveness - and it would seem here that this would be a perfect opportunity to express that forgiveness.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a common motto, at least in the Catholic church.


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:brainondrugs:

You are not special :haha:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #18994415 - 10/18/13 07:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Marko's is being realistic. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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