Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | Next >
OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #18985468 - 10/16/13 10:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Woah woah woah, you're making some pretty bold statements there Wiccan. It actually applies far beyond just mere Christianity.

Quote:

Out of love for us, he allows us our suffering, our toil and hardships. And a God who does that isnt a "monster" for that, thats just a shortsighted view. Life is eternal. All setbacks, all rewards are transient. Theres mercy after every hardship.




I don't know about you, but in my view inflicting massive unnecessary suffering doesn't show love. A baby that dies at the age of 2 because it had massive amounts of medical problems has nothing to do with toil and hardships. How is there mercy for the baby? Or are you saying WE as a society get something out of it?

A god that is omnipotent and omnibenevolent can prevent exactly this.

So are you saying god made a world that falls short of a perfect world that he could create? Are you calling god a fucking idiot? That is what you are implying when you say what you say.

Unnecessary suffering just shows cruelty. An example of what you're trying to say is that If I were to go and torture you and then while torturing you I broadcasted it live and I would say: "Look, his suffering is unnecessary but I'm here to show you how amazing it is to not be tortured. After I'm done you'll see how amazing it is to NOT be tortured."

Except its common sense that no one wants to be tortured. Nobody wants unnecessary suffering.... so apply the same concept to an omnipotent god. God obviously would have the power to prevent all unnecessary suffering, and only allow for necessary suffering (ie: hitting your child when they repeatedly do something BAD, or killing a serial killer, etc). God would have foreknowledge and thus determinism would be in place from the very beginning and would know all, thus he could prevent all.

Either god exists and he's just a psychotic douchebag by your definition, or he doesn't exist.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 16 hours, 14 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18985562 - 10/16/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What about the hindu concept of lila, specifically the interpretation of the non-dualistic philosophy, Advaita Vedanta?

The concept of lila, play or sport, seeks to convey that Isvara (personal god) creates, sustains, and destroys worlds out of the sheer joy of doing so. Answering to no compelling necessity, his creative act is simply a release of energy for its own sake. Creation is not informed by any selfish motive. It is spontaneous, without any purpose. No moral consequences attach to the creator in his activity, for lila is precisely different in kind from all action which yields results that are binding upon, and which determine, the actor. It is simply the Divine's nature to create just as it is man's nature to breathe in and out. Lila thus removes all motive, purpose, and responsibility from Isvara in his creative activity. Having no need to create and having no consequences attach to his action, Isvara cannot be held responsible for the actions that arise subsequently within the fields of his creation. Lila avoids thereby any problem of evil of the sort associated with Judaeo-Christian theism, and it sets aside as meaningless any question of why Isvara creates in the first place. There can be no "why" to creation.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18985604 - 10/16/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So what you're saying is that these all powerful beings are not to be held responsible for their very own creation?

That is just insanity.

That is like someone beating someone to death and saying: "Naw, not my responsibility, blame god he made me do it by creating me."

That is just nonsense. For starters, it would have to start with an omnipotent god to even branch off into these subsections of gods to create and destroy, and that would mean they are all upheld by the "God" that controls all and that which has power over order in our universe AND in the realm of "God". There could never be gods on the same level of power, or there would be disputes between the gods and that would not make sense to the highest of all gods.

Either god is responsible for everything, or he is responsible for nothing and therefore nothing is bad and everything in this world is inexplicable.... and that isn't the case. We can explain morality by rejecting gods, you can't explain morality by accepting god.

You are either saying god made the best of possible worlds

Or

You are saying he did NOT make the best of possible worlds


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 16 hours, 14 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18985741 - 10/16/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Did you read what I wrote?

It's a spontaneous realization of the inherent potential for existence--there is no conscious decision to create, sustain and destroy (these are seen as different aspects of the same process, and so one in the same), no goal is sought through the process of creation beyond the act of creation itself.

If you must know, the greater idea starts with Brahman, which is not an omnipotent being--nor a being at all--Brahman is a state of being. It is not a "He," a personal being; nor is it an "It," an impersonal concept. Brahman is that state which is when all subject/object distinctions are obliterated. Brahman is ultimately a name for the experience of the timeless plenitude of being.

Brahman is a state of infinite (unrealized) potential--one common designation is saccidananda: being (sat), conciousness (cit), and bliss (ananda). Though, it would be wrong to see these as qualifying attributes of Brahman, so much as they are the terms that express the apprehension of Brahman by man.

From this comes the concept that, in an infinite existence, this potential will eventually spontaneously self realize--sustain for a period of time--and then eventually collapse back into a state of infinite potential.

If you can get past your (possible) aversion to spiritual concepts, you may even notice this concept of existence provides a good analogy for the scientific concept of a universe spontaneously bursting into existence (see: big bang). Do you blame the universe for the parts within that you perceive as bad? No, that's pretty idiotic--well, this is the hindu understanding as well.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18985803 - 10/16/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Out of love for us, he allows us our suffering, our toil and hardships



This makes no sense. This is the kind of statement you hear all the time from believers to justify why their god seems to be a total psychopath.

By the way, the same god who, if you don't live him back, punishes you to eternal suffering.

So much love from this guy. Believers sound like a woman who gets beaten every night and then tell their friends that's how her husband shows his love,




you do realize that the new testament is a razing criticism of the old testament, right? that same god sent his only begotten son to die for our sins. if you buy into that sort of thing that is. i don't for the record.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18985813 - 10/16/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

uh he sent his son to live not to die dummy. he sent his son to live and to teach others how to live. it's the people that didn't want anything to do with it. the "egos"


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Envix]
    #18985838 - 10/16/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Envix said:
uh he sent his son to live not to die dummy. he sent his son to live and to teach others how to live. it's the people that didn't want anything to do with it. the "egos"




jesus died for our sins. also, the sky is blue.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18985858 - 10/16/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Envix said:
uh he sent his son to live not to die dummy. he sent his son to live and to teach others how to live. it's the people that didn't want anything to do with it. the "egos"




jesus died for our sins. also, the sky is blue.




What if I don't sin?  He died prematurely for no good reason. :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18985875 - 10/16/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Did you read what I wrote?

It's a spontaneous realization of the inherent potential for existence--there is no conscious decision to create, sustain and destroy (these are seen as different aspects of the same process, and so one in the same), no goal is sought through the process of creation beyond the act of creation itself.

If you must know, the greater idea starts with Brahman, which is not an omnipotent being--nor a being at all--Brahman is a state of being. It is not a "He," a personal being; nor is it an "It," an impersonal concept. Brahman is that state which is when all subject/object distinctions are obliterated. Brahman is ultimately a name for the experience of the timeless plenitude of being.

Brahman is a state of infinite (unrealized) potential--one common designation is saccidananda: being (sat), conciousness (cit), and bliss (ananda). Though, it would be wrong to see these as qualifying attributes of Brahman, so much as they are the terms that express the apprehension of Brahman by man.

From this comes the concept that, in an infinite existence, this potential will eventually spontaneously self realize--sustain for a period of time--and then eventually collapse back into a state of infinite potential.

If you can get past your (possible) aversion to spiritual concepts, you may even notice this concept of existence provides a good analogy for the scientific concept of a universe spontaneously bursting into existence (see: big bang). Do you blame the universe for the parts within that you perceive as bad? No, that's pretty idiotic--well, this is the hindu understanding as well.




Nah, none of what you posted makes any sense to me. Either there is a god of creation that gives order to the the universe, or there isn't. It really is as simple as that. Going into weird complicated explanations of what is or isn't true doesn't mean anything. Either a god is responsible for creation, or a god isn't responsible for its creation. You seem to have missed this concept.

So either a god is held responsible, or a god is not. I don't know anything about hindu religion but anything that makes life infinite would be considered omnipotent and thus, god or god-like. Meaning that that "potential" for existence or "god" would be held responsible.

You say it does not have awareness or consciousness, but how are you even aware of such things?

What gave order and consciousness to us then, if there was not a higher form of it in a more perfect order than the human mind could even possibly begin to understand?

There IS order to the universe in a perfect fashion, but how is that so?

Either god is everything that is order and chaos with some seriously twisted logic

or god is nothing more than well... I don't know.

:shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18985894 - 10/16/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Envix said:
uh he sent his son to live not to die dummy. he sent his son to live and to teach others how to live. it's the people that didn't want anything to do with it. the "egos"




jesus died for our sins. also, the sky is blue.



sins aren't real, they're a symbolic representation of detachment. jesus realized the world was full of sin (detachment), and wanted to unify it through being an example of unity (or "oneness"). he did this by becoming the example, ultimately forgiving the people who murdered him, and thus became a symbol of unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion, and all things unifying

(12 years of catholic school)


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Envix]
    #18985907 - 10/16/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

sins are pretty legit bro


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: zZZz]
    #18985913 - 10/16/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

we define them as real by how we react to them. what some may interpret as "sin", others may see as benign. this is where things get confusing, misinterpretations curdle up to the surface, and language starts becoming a slippery slope. careful which way you tread


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 16 hours, 14 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18985946 - 10/16/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know how much more simple I can make it than this:


the universe exists, because the potential for the universe to exist is inherent to reality--in an infinite existence all potential is eventually realized--a spontaneous release of energy before returning again to the state of potential

as my understanding of it goes, remove the sanskrit terminology, and you get a fair analogy for the big bang theory--of a universe spontaneously arising out of an undifferentiated infinite, persisting for a period of time, and then eventually returning back to a state of undifferentiation

does it make sense to blame the universe for the existence of what we perceive as good and evil?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18985968 - 10/16/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so you're saying the universe needs to die and reset itself just to make one conscious lifeform, and then does it all over again to make the next one? and it does this over and over infinitely as expressions of each individual conscious entity in the infinite cosmos?


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 16 hours, 14 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Envix]
    #18986070 - 10/16/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

there abouts, yea--though i think of it more as a natural process, rather than a need


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18986114 - 10/16/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

well, being "all one" would be kinda lonely i think. so maybe that's a reason to be expressed as infinitely numerous creations.

i mean in the end, we were always all one all along, but we trick ourselves by creating worlds made of "others". and we live in this reality believing we're not "all one". because if we all really realized this, well then the universe would collapse! :grin:


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Envix]
    #18986178 - 10/16/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Envix said:
uh he sent his son to live not to die dummy. he sent his son to live and to teach others how to live. it's the people that didn't want anything to do with it. the "egos"




jesus died for our sins. also, the sky is blue.




What if I don't sin?  He died prematurely for no good reason. :shrug:




if salvation from sin isn't a worry for you then i suppose the christian model wouldn't be one that works for you. :shrug:

Quote:

Envix said:

sins aren't real, they're a symbolic representation of detachment. jesus realized the world was full of sin (detachment), and wanted to unify it through being an example of unity (or "oneness"). he did this by becoming the example, ultimately forgiving the people who murdered him, and thus became a symbol of unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion, and all things unifying

(12 years of catholic school)




this seems like a rather heretical and esoteric interpretation of christianity. with terms like "detachment" and "oneness" i suspect it is your personal interpretation of the tradition and not what you were actually taught. in any case, according to the tenets of orthodox christianity, jesus did in fact die for our sins, which is why accepting the miracle of his resurrection will grant the believer salvation from their sins. christians celebrate jesus's death via cruxifiction on good friday and his resurrection on easter. collectively these stories are referred to as the passion, and if you don't believe in the passion then you aren't a christian in any orthodox sense. i'll also add that i find it bewildering that i have to even explain this. envix are you aware what a homerun is? how about "i love lucy"? have you heard of that show? do you know what television is? lol


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18986189 - 10/16/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i understand your interpretation of orthodox christianity, and that's all fine and well. you have to understand that every interpretation is a personal interpretation. just because a bunch of people believe in one interpretation does not make it truth in any sense. it makes it an interpretation, in an interpretative sense.

tricky language, didn't i tell you?


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Envix]
    #18986286 - 10/16/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

orthodox is latin for "right belief". that is not my interpretation but rather the interpretation. but you are right in that there is a veritable universe of interpretations operating under the umbrella term "christianity" now. but comparing those interpretations' strengths and weaknesses would be to argue beside the point because, according to orthodox christianity, jesus did die for our sins in a very real, concrete way.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (10/16/13 01:50 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18986328 - 10/16/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

since when is anything "real" and "concrete" to begin with? are you still living in newtonian land where the world is made up of little tiny balls that obey the same laws of physics throughout the entire cosmos?

orthodox christianity served its purpose, oh wait NO IT HASNT. all it did was cause war and chaos based on a bunch of people who thought that they had the "correct interpretation"

hey guess what, everyone lives in an entirely different reality! therefore anything "real" is nothing more the fiction. a passing moment which quickly becomes a memory, and over-time a story. and eventually memories and dreams will become one in the same, as you try desperately to relive the dream of a memory long since passed.

this is your life you're living, and everything in it tries to direct you away from the realization that the only truth is silence


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | Next >

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* I Am the True God fireworks_godS 1,427 17 11/21/03 03:31 PM
by fireworks_god
* $100,000 challenge spacedragon 1,196 3 09/01/03 07:24 PM
by Crass
* Proof that lsd effects machines Lazerouth 2,016 17 10/18/03 05:27 AM
by DreaMaTrix
* Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor? SkorpivoMusterion 1,088 10 12/27/03 01:36 AM
by DailyPot
* may have killed at least 20,000 djfrog 904 2 12/26/03 05:27 PM
by djfrog
* help with mycological site for a 10 year old........ ChromeCrow 2,181 13 12/24/03 07:45 AM
by Ripple
* Top 10 Reasons MJshroomer doesn't answer my Private Message: GGreatOne234 1,551 7 09/17/03 05:27 PM
by Its Pat
* 10 year old punk band TheBear 2,088 10 10/21/02 08:11 AM
by ShroomSkin

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
12,864 topic views. 2 members, 24 guests and 31 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.