Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #18995909 - 10/18/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see how forgiveness for someone who was a participant in Nazi genocide is in any way sympathizing with what happened regardless of whether the person asked for forgiveness or not

Perhaps you'd best learn to see that forgiveness in the Bible that you allude to is forgiveness of those who have sinned, by their own admission, and are in need of forgiveness because their very lives depend on it! The woman taken in adultery would have been stoned to death, if the occupying Romans permitted Jewish Levitical law to be carried out. It was not merely  the metaphysical supposition about going to Hell. The woman does not speak in this story, which could be interpreted as humility/humiliation/contrition, but at least she was not boldly proclaiming her independence in defiance. We do not know what the Nazi thought/felt either, but it flies in the face of human nature as well as the theistic sense of the Bible to forgive those who overtly reject repentance. Impenitent individuals are not forgiven because they reject God's forgiveness by their impenitence. Forgiveness of sins is useless coming from a glassy-eyed love-bomber who fails to understand that they are planting 'seeds' in 'stony ground,' to use another biblical metaphor. You can pronounce anything you like, forgiveness included, but if you're forgiving somebody who is essentially saying "fuck you and fuck your God's forgiveness," then you do not understand the reciprocal nature of forgiveness.

Jesus didn't 'forgive' the demoniac in that cool story, he 'rebuked' the demon to give up its name, and ordered it to vacate the man for a herd of swine (although Jews and in all probability their Semitic neighbors didn't raise pigs, but I digress). In other words, the demon (Shadow of the man) was castigated. How would YOU like to have been severely reprimanded by Jesus for the evil in YOU? There is nothing in the NT that has Jesus addressing a genocidal murderer, which is too bad, but it was the Roman authorities themselves who regularly practiced genocide. And what regime did Nazism try to replicate with it torchlight processions, eagle standards, extreme uniformity in battle, etc.? Imperial Rome! And the First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire. Same shit, more efficient weapons and siege machines. Meanwhile, historically, everybody claims to believe in God. Kind of loses its meaning in the face of so many atrocities, don't you think?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOpenQwerty
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 167
Last seen: 12 days, 13 hours
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: PocketLady]
    #18995983 - 10/18/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:

So does this man have a right to a normal funeral?  Personally I think he does, because more than anything a funeral is for the friends and family of the deceased, and they shouldn't be denied that right.  Secondly, I think it's incredibly hypocritical of the Vatican to deny the funeral coming from a church that apparently preaches forgiveness.  But then that's not really very surprising.




The Vatican is famous for his hypocrisy, but in this case the Catholic church follow some logic, because according to the catholic doctrine, you can not have a catholic funeral if you didn't show any repentance for your sins. (this is the reason because the Catholic church, for example, rejected -until the last century- to give catholic funeral even to the suicide deaths). Priebke, even in his last days, didn't change any of his ideas, and show no sign of regret.

I am neither Catholic nor Christian, but I agree whit the decision to reject his funeral. He will be (or he is already)  buried.  It's already save the “respect for any dead” . There is no need for  hypocrisies. He was hated until his last breath, and for valid reasons. He made nothing for to be forgiven by the men for his actions. And any funeral, is a sign of “public mourning”. My conclusion : there is no need for to have this funeral.

Nobody will forbid his relatives to mourn and to pray, but any public ceremony would be inappropriate.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRepertoire89
Cat
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,084
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18997069 - 10/18/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:




:curbyourenthusiasm:

In other words the christian form of forgiveness is to conquor someone? I learned nothing new today.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18997692 - 10/18/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:




:curbyourenthusiasm:

In other words the christian form of forgiveness is to conquor someone? I learned nothing new today.




Yes, those are definitely "other words," and not even close to what I was trying to communicate. Forgiveness cannot be a mindless act, purportedly one of a truism, but useless if the compassion of the heart is not balanced by the discriminating wisdom of the head. Forgiveness has absolutely nothing to do with conquering anything except one's own bitterness.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRepertoire89
Cat
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,084
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18997705 - 10/18/13 09:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

Perhaps you'd best learn to see that forgiveness in the Bible that you allude to is forgiveness of those who have sinned, by their own admission, and are in need of forgiveness because their very lives depend on it! The woman taken in adultery would have been stoned to death, if the occupying Romans permitted Jewish Levitical law to be carried out.




Quote:

Repertoire89 said:

:curbyourenthusiasm:

In other words the christian form of forgiveness is to conquor someone? I learned nothing new today.




Quote:


Yes, those are definitely "other words," and not even close to what I was trying to communicate. Forgiveness cannot be a mindless act, purportedly one of a truism, but useless if the compassion of the heart is not balanced by the discriminating wisdom of the head. Forgiveness has absolutely nothing to do with conquering anything except one's own bitterness.




Indeed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,479
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18997854 - 10/18/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

the vatican may have received complaints. they may have stepped in only to prevent further conflict.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRaven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: zZZz]
    #18998559 - 10/19/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

In WWII? Nah, man.

If that is what you are implying, read the links above. :thumbup:


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,297
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #19000539 - 10/19/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

forgiveness in the Bible that you allude to is forgiveness of those who have sinned, by their own admission, and are in need of forgiveness




My memory might be foggy but I seem to remember Jesus not waiting around on the Jews to feel bad. "Please forgive them for they know not what they do."

:shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rahz]
    #19000960 - 10/19/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

oops


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRepertoire89
Cat
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,084
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rahz]
    #19001892 - 10/19/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

forgiveness in the Bible that you allude to is forgiveness of those who have sinned, by their own admission, and are in need of forgiveness




My memory might be foggy but I seem to remember Jesus not waiting around on the Jews to feel bad. "Please forgive them for they know not what they do."

:shrug:




The lord works in mysterious ways

:derp:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,479
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19002020 - 10/19/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

god wills it!  :pope:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rahz]
    #19003831 - 10/20/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

forgiveness in the Bible that you allude to is forgiveness of those who have sinned, by their own admission, and are in need of forgiveness




My memory might be foggy but I seem to remember Jesus not waiting around on the Jews to feel bad. "Please forgive them for they know not what they do."

:shrug:




Yes, and if you take the four canonical gospels together, you will see similarities and differences in Jesus' 'sayings from the cross,' this being a particularly magnanimous and superhuman one. You read this, and think, holy shit, a man has been flogged within an inch of his life, he is forced to carry a heavy beam (the horizontal part, the uprights were probably fixed in the ground) to the place of execution, he is nailed through the wrists, hoisted up so that the mortise in the cross-beam slips over the upright of the post, forming the crucifix, and then his feet are nailed to the upright, possibly with a footrest (suppedaneum) to prolong the suffering. And then the saying.

Some Gnostics believed that the being who spoke, the Logos itself, was incapable of experiencing pain. This was a dualism. How could the Logos suffer, it is spiritual, not corporeal. Some Gnostics believed that the Logos or Christ left the man Jesus when he cried "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?!," which is to say, "My God my God, why have you forsaken me?," except that this line just happens to be the first line of the 22nd Psalm. So, was Jesus praying a prayer that completely captured that moment, or was it the prophetic words of the Psalmist, suggesting that those words were meant for Jesus? Or, were all of these ejaculations from the cross complete insertions by scribes and authors? The human man could not have had the wits nor the inclination to pray for others while undergoing profound trauma, which is why such sayings are so super-human, given the purported experience. Pain from the crown of thorns, to the rib-smashing, lacerating flogging with a lead dumbbell-tipped leather flagrum, to the punctures from large square nails, to the creeping asphyxiation from hanging, not to mention the muscular cramps and spasms throughout the body create unimaginable agony.

Yet...through all this, the man is praying for God to forgive them. Really? Well, no wonder people exclaimed, 'This truly is the Son of God?,' if God is love, and if God is impassive (divine apathy, apathía), and unable to experience agony! In seminary, people asked, 'how come the universe didn't cease to exist if 'God' died on the cross?' This is a heresy called Patripassionism. Mental gymnastics used to be fun, until I realized that nobody could possibly know anything about the inner workings of God, and that theology was completely inventive for the sake of satisfying intellectual needs. Unfortunately, it is merely inventive IMO. The following is more than you expect, no doubt, but all I did was click on my dictionary icon, type patripassionism, click, copy, paste, and edit. I think that the final sayings attributed to Jesus are anything but historically true, yet they paint a picture of superhuman compassion - a receding horizon of possibility that we humans should endeavor to embody ourselves. BTW, the Jews and Romans worked together in this plot, for different agendas, but the whole story is likely written as a public relations plan to extend salvation to non-Jews. The entire enterprise, was co-opted by the Roman Empire for unification after Emperor Constantine. Jesus won out over Mithras. Good move for Rome obviously.


:jesus:




Patripassionism

"In Christian theology, patripassianism is the view that God the Father suffers (from Latin patri- "father" and passio "suffering"). Its adherents believe that God the Father was incarnate and suffered on the cross and that whatever happened to the Son happened to the Father and so the Father co-suffered with the human Jesus on the cross. This view is opposed to the classical theological doctrine of divine apathy. According to classical theology it is possible for Christ to suffer only in virtue of his human nature. The divine nature is incapable of suffering. The early church considered patripassianism to be heresy.

From the standpoint of the doctrine of the Trinity—one Divine Being existing in three Persons—patripassianism is considered heretical because it denies the distinct personhood of the Members of the Trinity. In this vein patripassianism asserts that God the Father—rather than God the Son—became incarnate and suffered on the Cross for humanity's redemption. This not only denies the personhood of God-the-Son (Jesus Christ), but also distorts the spiritual transaction that was taking place at the Cross, which the Apostle Paul described as follows: "God [the Father] was reconciling the world to himself in Christ [the Son], not counting people’s sins against them. . . . God [the Father] made him who had no sin [God-the-Son] to be sin for us, so that in him [the Son] we might become the righteousness of God [the Father]." (2 Corinthians 5:19, 21) It is possible, however, to modify patripassianism so as to acknowledge the Divine Being as having feelings toward, and sharing in the experiences of, both God-Incarnate (Jesus) and other human beings. Full-orbed patripassianism denies Trinitarian distinctions, yet it is not heretical to say that God "feels" or "experiences" things, including nonphysical forms of suffering. With regard to the crucifixion of Jesus, it is consistent with Scriptural teaching to say that God the Father "suffered"—that is, felt emotional/spiritual pain—along with His Son. This was due to the temporary breach of their relationship when the Son took upon himself the wrath of the Father toward sin. Jesus expressed this temporal divine rift when he cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)


Patripassianism began in the third century AD. Patripassianism was referred to as a belief ascribed to those following Sabellianism, after its founder Sabellius, especially by the chief opponent Tertullian. Sabellius, considered a founder of an early movement, was a priest who was excommunicated from the Church by Pope Callixtus I in 220 and lived in Rome. Sabellius advanced the doctrine of one God sometimes referred to as “economic Trinity” and he opposed the Orthodox doctrine of the “essential Trinity”. Praxeus and Noetus were some major followers. Because the writings of Sabellius were destroyed it is hard to know if he did actually believe in Patripassianism but one early version of the Apostles' Creed, recorded by Rufinus, explicitly states that the Father is 'impassible.' This reading dates to about 390 AD. This addition was made in response to patripassianism, which Rufinus evidently regarded as a heresy. Cyprian and Tertullian famously accused the Modalistic Monarchians of patripassianism. The Monarchians taught the unity of the Godhead in Christ and that as the Son suffered the Father also experienced the sufferings. They did not teach that the Father died on the cross, though they were sometimes accused of this." (from Wiki Dictionary)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,479
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19003920 - 10/20/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i thought you were icelander for a second there. :cool:


interesting read nontheless.


so much science, not enough love. not talking about you MarkostheGnostic.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,297
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19004010 - 10/20/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I suppose it takes a true scholar to properly cherry pick. Perhaps the Catholic Church should amend their book to better reflect their beliefs. This way the layman can feel confident God is on their side when holding a grudge.

All I see is karma begetting karma. No holy ground necessary. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRepertoire89
Cat
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,084
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #19004148 - 10/20/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Its so convenient how the bible was written, one can just reinterpret the entire book as they go moment by moment. Anything becomes right as long as you switch gears on perception fast enough

:fonz:

Situation 1 "Killing is wrong sinner!"
Situation 2 "Killing is okay when you do it in the name of the lord"
Situation 3 "Turn the other cheek you sinner!"
Situation 4 "Only turn the other cheek when you aren't dealing with a sinner"

Wow Billy that's awful convenient

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: zZZz]
    #19005026 - 10/20/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
i thought you were icelander for a second there. :cool:


interesting read nontheless.


so much science, not enough love. not talking about you MarkostheGnostic.




Thanks. Icelander and I agree in a a few crucial ways that outweigh the more numerous superficial differences.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rahz]
    #19005038 - 10/20/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I suppose it takes a true scholar to properly cherry pick. Perhaps the Catholic Church should amend their book to better reflect their beliefs. This way the layman can feel confident God is on their side when holding a grudge.

All I see is karma begetting karma. No holy ground necessary. :shrug:




"God Is With Us."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRool Kat
Rutabga
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 526
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19008522 - 10/21/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
It's no surprise at all.

Not that its truly relevant, but I'd personally let him have a funeral, what does it matter? It's not as if they are celebrating his darkness.

Men like him exist and always will exist, gathering in large cluster fucks of other naked apes with rags draped over their skin and collectively hooting and hollering and trying to stop a traditional praxis for the dead from unfolding won't bring back the people he killed, nor will it prevent men like him from existing in the future.
:monkeydance:

I don't think they themselves even know what they are trying to accomplish or what it means, or rather, how meaningless it is.






I differ markedly in my opinion.

In the first place, the dead have no rights, therefore it is an oxymoron to say this one does.  It is the family that would have any rights, if "rights" is the correct noun here.

There are two purposes for a funeral, the main purpose of a funeral is to bring closure to the family, but the second generally accepted function is to "honor" or otherwise remind people of what the deceased accomplished to leave the community in better shape that it (presumably) would have been without the deceased's efforts.

In this case, I would agree that a funeral for the deceased would be highly inappropriate unless it highlighted the deceased vile life, which would defeat purpose #1 and make things harder for the remaining family.  I see no need to punish them, so I would vote against it.

For the family, a simple private grave-side gathering at the burial, with a strictly observed restriction ban on attendance by any but immediate family of the deceased would allow them to achieve closure without any public praising the dead piece of ofal, and I would vote to allow that.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRaven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rool Kat]
    #19009074 - 10/21/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I never claimed the dead have rights.

Though, I have seen people die and have found dead people(both in private and professional settings) and animals and treat them with respect regardless of what they may have been in life.

I'm not conceited enough to believe my judgments about what they did in life are worth a damn, let alone anything in the end.

One thing I have learned from being around the dead is that, what they were in life is genuinely gone. They hardly look themselves anymore, even minutes after passing.
That which made them themselves, is no longer present. I've likened the dead to clay in the past, the lines between matter and life are thin but very pronounced.

The man whose funeral these silly hominids are flipping out about isn't here anymore and certainly isn't in the hunk of decaying meat or pile of ashes they want to project their feelings about what he did onto.

I can't help but find it delusional and border-line insane that these people hold so tightly onto the no longer present abstraction that is who this man was, that they'd behave the way they are.

Personally, I think it'd be wise to hold a huge funeral in honor of him.
Not for the terrible things he has done, but for the harsh lesson he has taught and can continue to teach us if we have the emotional and intellectual maturity to take from it without giving in to our natural instinct of revulsion that has turned him and his ilk into a world-over recognized symbol that begets anger just as capable of breeding the very sort of hatred that fueled the violence he was involved in.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRool Kat
Rutabga
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 526
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Nazi war criminal funeral protest [Re: Rool Kat]
    #19009280 - 10/21/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Raven Gnosis, I like your style.  Your last paragraph makes a great deal of sense and I would actually vote for such a suggestion, despite my earlier position.

I agree very much with gist of the two paragraphs preceding that one, as well.  In my own case, after death, "I" will be gone, that hunk of rotting flesh remaining that once housed me will not be any concern to me (nothing will, as "I" will no longer exist).  Haul it out to the curb for the trash man, machts nichts bei mir.

But in the case of the dead nazi, my point was to avoid any recognition of the man, lest anything favorable said about him by anyone, be mistaken for acceptance of what he stood for (a quite reasonable precaution, given human nature.) 

The man is oft associated with the idea or philosophy he followed and represented in life; and in this case should be seen as despicable by all humans, your cogent comments about the hazard of that notwithstanding.

Too bad you've disabled ratings, I wanted to give you a +5 for that post, overall.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* sociopaths in war
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
OldWoodSpecter 7,936 101 09/13/05 03:05 PM
by Veritas
* ---Favourite S&P Style Movie---
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomerious 6,586 70 06/09/04 11:33 AM
by Deiymiyan
* The Tao and War Evolving 570 4 03/20/03 06:39 PM
by djfrog
* war
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
OldWoodSpecter 5,308 95 07/20/05 01:20 PM
by OldWoodSpecter
* This just in from the Vatican
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,271 22 04/04/05 10:58 AM
by leturheadread
* Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer
( 1 2 all )
YthanA 2,741 28 05/05/06 09:20 PM
by SkorpivoMusterion
* What Else is the Vatican Hiding? Ellis Dee 1,926 19 07/17/02 03:05 AM
by llib
* WAR-SHOULD WE FIGHT??? Shroomerious 992 10 01/29/04 01:56 PM
by Shroomerious

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,735 topic views. 0 members, 9 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.