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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: MorphinTime]
#18981748 - 10/15/13 03:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MorphinTime said: I wouldn't argue that useful questions cannot be asked by religious thinkers, but I don't think religion necessarily is or was needed to ask them so much as curiosity.
you would have tremendous difficulty in backing such a claim. science and religion both ask really big questions about the world and the former has evolved out of the latter. but you could say that it's a chicken or egg type of question (even though we all know that egg laying creatures came long before the chicken). the common thread running through the abrahamic traditions as well as science has been greek philosophy. going back to the pre-socratics, there was no differentiation between the two fields of science and religion; there was only philosophy. during the islamic renaissance (8th-10th centuries c.e.) there were mass translations of greek philosophical texts by muslim scholars. these "pagan" texts eventually found their way into the universities of the high middle ages via military conquest. the primary figure was aristotle. aristotle's influence in medieval thought cannot be overstated. by following aristotle's methodology of observing the natural world and hypothesizing over the natural causes of phenomena that occur in the natural world, medieval theologians began to do what we now call science.
as i said before, today science and religion are two different games with two different sets of goals. but to disregard religion's influence on science is a disservice to both.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: mpd]
#18981959 - 10/15/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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mpd said:
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koods said: Actually, it's all god's fault.
Personally, I blame George W. Bush for all of it.
Stop hatin W.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
#18981973 - 10/15/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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millzy said:
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MorphinTime said: I wouldn't argue that useful questions cannot be asked by religious thinkers, but I don't think religion necessarily is or was needed to ask them so much as curiosity.
you would have tremendous difficulty in backing such a claim. science and religion both ask really big questions about the world and the former has evolved out of the latter. but you could say that it's a chicken or egg type of question (even though we all know that egg laying creatures came long before the chicken). the common thread running through the abrahamic traditions as well as science has been greek philosophy. going back to the pre-socratics, there was no differentiation between the two fields of science and religion; there was only philosophy. during the islamic renaissance (8th-10th centuries c.e.) there were mass translations of greek philosophical texts by muslim scholars. these "pagan" texts eventually found their way into the universities of the high middle ages via military conquest. the primary figure was aristotle. aristotle's influence in medieval thought cannot be overstated. by following aristotle's methodology of observing the natural world and hypothesizing over the natural causes of phenomena that occur in the natural world, medieval theologians began to do what we now call science.
as i said before, today science and religion are two different games with two different sets of goals. but to disregard religion's influence on science is a disservice to both.
Theologians were the ones doing science because it was only in the name of God could you even investigate the natural world without being burned at the stake.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
#18982123 - 10/15/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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koods said: Theologians were the ones doing science because it was only in the name of God could you even investigate the natural world without being burned at the stake.
this is true. you also had to keep up appearances with how you researched because upholding dogma came before anything. i'm unsure of how this negates my point that religion has significantly influenced science though.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (10/15/13 04:38 PM)
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
#18982280 - 10/15/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is a good discussion (especially for the pub)
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
#18982736 - 10/15/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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agreed!
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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zZZz
jesus


Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
#18982766 - 10/15/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea move it to sm forum. Were too smart for this shit.
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MorphinTime
Tulpa



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
#18983021 - 10/15/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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millzy said: you would have tremendous difficulty in backing such a claim.
Do you mean I'd have difficulty backing up my impression that curiosity is more necessary to asking useful questions than is religion?
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science and religion both ask really big questions about the world and the former has evolved out of the latter. but you could say that it's a chicken or egg type of question (even though we all know that egg laying creatures came long before the chicken). the common thread running through the abrahamic traditions as well as science has been greek philosophy. going back to the pre-socratics, there was no differentiation between the two fields of science and religion; there was only philosophy. during the islamic renaissance (8th-10th centuries c.e.) there were mass translations of greek philosophical texts by muslim scholars. these "pagan" texts eventually found their way into the universities of the high middle ages via military conquest. the primary figure was aristotle. aristotle's influence in medieval thought cannot be overstated. by following aristotle's methodology of observing the natural world and hypothesizing over the natural causes of phenomena that occur in the natural world, medieval theologians began to do what we now call science. as i said before, today science and religion are two different games with two different sets of goals. but to disregard religion's influence on science is a disservice to both.
I'm aware of how science as we know it came to be and I realize the dichotomy between science and religion that can be observed at present didn't always exist. I don't think I've done a disservice to either.
Edited by MorphinTime (10/15/13 08:28 PM)
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: MorphinTime]
#18983027 - 10/15/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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believe in god or else you are emotionally repressed. the end.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: MorphinTime]
#18983343 - 10/15/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MorphinTime said:
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millzy said: you would have tremendous difficulty in backing such a claim.
Do you mean I'd have difficulty backing up my impression that curiosity is more necessary to asking useful questions than is religion?
--------------------------------------- I'm aware of how science as we know it came to be and I realize the dichotomy between science and religion that can be observed at present didn't always exist. I don't think a I've done a disservice to either.
you seem to be looking at religion and science as one being superior to the other. religion and science are both products of human curiosity and reasoning. i would tend to think that the impetus for any type of question would be curiosity and the usefulness of any question lies in the context of the question itself. asking religious questions in a scientific context is as useless as asking scientific questions in a religious context. at least now. again, different games with different sets of rules and goals. you wouldn't use the bible to figure out what atoms are made of any more than you would use a particle accelerator to figure out how to gain salvation from sin. but before the fields of religion and science were distinguished, asking any question about the world was what was ultimately necessary in order to get us where we're at now.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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unknown1123
Experimental

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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: g00ru] 2
#18983818 - 10/15/13 10:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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g00ru said: believe in god or else you are emotionally repressed. the end.
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Camwritesgonzo
The Unflushable Stool



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: starfire_xes]
#18983847 - 10/15/13 10:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- "I've always maintained that reality is for those who can't face drugs."-Tom Waits "I feel the same way about disco as I feel about herpes."-Hunter S. Thompson A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
 
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Camwritesgonzo]
#18983878 - 10/15/13 10:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Camwritesgonzo said: 1 million if you can provide proof of god or supernatural. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html
In the 1950's 10K == about 1M now.
Anyone want to read a nice sci-fi that presents a really different perspective on religion/why we are here should read Arthur C. Clarke's 'Childhood's End'
Other books that approach this topic in a unique way (skillfully disguised as science fiction) Valis, The Diving Invasion, and 'The Transmigration of Timothy Archer (Philip K. Dick, set is a trilogy) and 'Contact' by Carl Sagan.
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    [/url] [/url]
IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#18983899 - 10/15/13 11:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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my favorite arthur c. clarke short story is "the nine billion names of god". the ending will give you chills.
oh, and i loved VALIS. "timothy arthur" and "the divine invasion" are in my stack by my bed.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (10/15/13 11:12 PM)
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koods
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Camwritesgonzo]
#18983904 - 10/15/13 11:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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you seem to be looking at religion and science as one being superior to the other. religion and science are both products of human curiosity and reasoning.
I cannot say this without sounding like an arrogant atheist, but here goes anyways. Science and religion are products of human curiosity, but science takes the path of reason and religion takes the path of no reason. God is the answer when we are too lazy to seek the truth through science, or are unable to find the the truth. Not being able to find answers through science does not mean the answer is supernatural, it just means we don't know the answer and it certainly not an excuse to default to God.
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Uzziel
O_o


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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
#18983929 - 10/15/13 11:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Look up the "Problem with Evil" argument and you will understand why god does not exist and why proving God is not possible in any way. Don't know if that has been mentioned in this thread, but you guys should look into it. Its pretty interesting.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
#18983982 - 10/15/13 11:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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koods said:
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you seem to be looking at religion and science as one being superior to the other. religion and science are both products of human curiosity and reasoning.
I cannot say this without sounding like an arrogant atheist, but here goes anyways. Science and religion are products of human curiosity, but science takes the path of reason and religion takes the path of no reason. God is the answer when we are too lazy to seek the truth through science, or are unable to find the the truth. Not being able to find answers through science does not mean the answer is supernatural, it just means we don't know the answer and it certainly not an excuse to default to God.
Did you choose to just completely ignore my post detailing religious systems of thought which uphold logical argument and rational proof as the way to obtain correct knowledge?
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
#18984356 - 10/16/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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koods said: I cannot say this without sounding like an arrogant atheist, but here goes anyways. Science and religion are products of human curiosity, but science takes the path of reason and religion takes the path of no reason. God is the answer when we are too lazy to seek the truth through science, or are unable to find the the truth. Not being able to find answers through science does not mean the answer is supernatural, it just means we don't know the answer and it certainly not an excuse to default to God.
well again, at the risk of sounding arrogant myself, as has been demonstrated, you seem to have a tenuous grasp on the subject of religion. going back to my recent replies about science's relationship to religion, medieval thought was preoccupied with the relationships between causes and effects. god - that than which no greater can be conceived - is the final cause of everything for medieval thinkers. conceptually, god is a form of logical conclusion known as an inference. when you say that "god is the answer to everything", while that is in a certain sense true, you seem to be missing a crucial piece of the puzzle. god, as the final cause, was a starting point for building a model in order to render the world intelligible. so god isn't as much an "answer" as much as it's what sits atop the chain of being; aristotle's summum genus, or ultimate substance from which all other substances derive. the primary formula for getting from god to the world in the monotheistic traditions is known as idealism. idealism supposes that beyond everything we experience there is an ultimate reality that informs and animates it. a major demarcation point in early modern philosophy is an attempt to put aside the notion of idealism in lieu of taking just what we are given - or our sensory experience of reality - in order to build a model that doesn't rely on what some claimed were aspects of reality that could never be known and therefore aspects of reality that we shouldn't worry ourselves with. this model is otherwise known as empiricism. empiricism is the intellectual movement that significantly shaped modern science because modern science relies on direct observation.
but even then, with the empiricists, you don't have outright rejection of religion. i'm currently reading john locke for one of my classes. this quote from locke seems pertinent to the conversation:
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if we disbelieve everything because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do quite wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly.
for locke, god seems to be something that we might not even be intended to understand. but he nevertheless believes, and he nevertheless believes in our ability to do amazing things with our albeit limited capacity to reason. and to bring this home, regardless of if you believe in god, regardless of if we have better models now to explain the world, you cannot say that any part of this ongoing process is lacking in rationality because reason, as i have hopefully explained sufficiently, is the fuel for the human enterprise.
Edited by millzy (10/16/13 12:44 AM)
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,000
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Uzziel]
#18984835 - 10/16/13 04:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Uzziel said: Look up the "Problem with Evil" argument and you will understand why god does not exist
See, thats nonsense. It takes a limited view of the Christian God and holds it as the benchmark standard for all forms of God.
Out of love for us, he allows us our suffering, our toil and hardships. And a God who does that isnt a "monster" for that, thats just a shortsighted view. Life is eternal. All setbacks, all rewards are transient. Theres mercy after every hardship.
We cannot prove anything, objectively. We have no rock solid truths. We can set up a system of belief and within that system explain something,m but it may only be true from that frame of thought.
We can't prove anything because God wants us to BELIEVE.
If you offer a reward for proving God you miss the point. The cycle of evidence, logic and proof never leaves its own internal frame of reference.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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koods
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Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Asante] 1
#18985433 - 10/16/13 10:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Out of love for us, he allows us our suffering, our toil and hardships
This makes no sense. This is the kind of statement you hear all the time from believers to justify why their god seems to be a total psychopath.
By the way, the same god who, if you don't live him back, punishes you to eternal suffering.
So much love from this guy. Believers sound like a woman who gets beaten every night and then tell their friends that's how her husband shows his love,
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (10/16/13 10:07 AM)
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