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OfflinePatlal
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The problem with education today
    #18981641 - 10/15/13 02:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Back in the day you could work at several places no matter what education you had. The boss taught you and you got better with time.

Nowadays, you need a diploma to scrub toilets. Not that it's wrong to get diplomas. What I hate is that is you have a diploma in administration, you have imprisoned yourself to work in admin until you decide to go get another diploma (wasting another 4 years and adding debts). The worst thing is, we ask 18 year old kids to make a decision that will affect the rest of their lives and most of them do it blindly cause they have no fucking clue what they want to do.

Something needs to be done with this diploma crap. Employers need to realize that there are competent people for the job that doesn't have the specified diploma (with the exception of medicine and very specific subjects).

Anyone else here is trap behind the bars of his diploma?


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OfflineTheMovement
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Patlal]
    #18981693 - 10/15/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think about this every day.  I have to choose ONE specific set of classes that will set a path for the rest of my life, and im only 20 years old.  I thought university was about learning, not just funneling kids through the system to a degree.

You're telling me I can't take history, english classes because im majoring in a science?  Thats complete bullshit.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: TheMovement] * 2
    #18981699 - 10/15/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with education today is all the new age methods, unions, no accountability, tenure and piss poor parenting skills. They're why we are turning out morons from schools.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: The problem with education today [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18981738 - 10/15/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I feel like I can't take certain class' and I can't hold down a job while going to school because I'm not smart enough.:shrug:

Also my state fucks us with federal min wage.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Konyap]
    #18981757 - 10/15/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
I feel like I can't take certain class' and I can't hold down a job while going to school because I'm not smart enough.:shrug:

Also my state fucks us with federal min wage.



The world needs ditch diggers, too.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Patlal]
    #18981784 - 10/15/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I see what you're saying but might not entirely agree.  I think a lot of different jobs and degrees have skill sets that are cross-disciplinary.  Often times, people do tend to start in their degree field, but they can also move around a lot.


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Invisible8ow8
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18981789 - 10/15/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Opinion one: Education should help you figure out what to do with your life
Opinion two: Education should help you get a decent job

If you believe in 1, go to a liberal arts college, or dither around in some random undergrad program until you figure it out.

If you believe in 2, get a targeted degree or professional designation.

parental income is the #1 determinant for post-graduation income - even after controlling for which program you take and which school you attend. THAT's the real problem in my opinion - the idea that education leads to social mobility is a myth for most people.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: 8ow8]
    #18981990 - 10/15/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

8ow8 said:
Opinion one: Education should help you figure out what to do with your life
Opinion two: Education should help you get a decent job

If you believe in 1, go to a liberal arts college, or dither around in some random undergrad program until you figure it out.

If you believe in 2, get a targeted degree or professional designation.

parental income is the #1 determinant for post-graduation income - even after controlling for which program you take and which school you attend. THAT's the real problem in my opinion - the idea that education leads to social mobility is a myth for most people.




Yep that's one of the biggest thing in the world.

If mommy and daddy are fuck ups, odds are you'll be one too


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OfflineShortknight
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Patlal]
    #18982128 - 10/15/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

My opinion one of the biggest problems is kids think they HAVE to go to school. Best thing I ever did while I was young was keep clear for a little bit, have some fun, learn a broad spectrum of things. Feelin' like a man more and more every day!:gd_icon:

Shorty:peace:


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InvisibleSheekle
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Shortknight]
    #18982139 - 10/15/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shortknight said:
My opinion one of the biggest problems is kids think they HAVE to go to school. Best thing I ever did while I was young was keep clear for a little bit, have some fun, learn a broad spectrum of things. Feelin' like a man more and more every day!:gd_icon:

Shorty:peace:



chyea


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InvisibleGlobal_Roaming
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Shortknight]
    #18982172 - 10/15/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Can't agree with the OP.

Formal education helps gets your foot in the door someplace. Where you go after that is up to you. You can reinvent yourself anytime you really want to.


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Sheekle]
    #18982201 - 10/15/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What I hate is that is you have a diploma in administration, you have imprisoned yourself to work in admin until you decide to go get another diploma (wasting another 4 years and adding debts). The worst thing is, we ask 18 year old kids to make a decision that will affect the rest of their lives and most of them do it blindly cause they have no fucking clue what they want to do.




A second diploma would not cost you 4 years; it would cost you two. Once you have your general education classes done you should most likely be able to earn a second degree in another subject in 1.5 - 2 years. I am earning a second bachelors degree right now, psychology, which will take me just 1.5 years and two classes in the summer.


Parents affect their children when they make a decision to either send them off to college or set them free.

I think a diploma takes a lot and it says a lot about a person. It says more than education, but it also says competent adult. Especially for those who worked through school.

The science major that I have chosen to study is no easy task. I work 40 hours Friday through Sunday and then I come home to study psychology, spending 90% of my time reading a book. The doctors in the psychology deppartment all support us yet they demand so much of us. It is a truly challenging program and I love it. I can only imagine one day if I am so lucky enough as to enter a master's program.

I think the university holds strong because there is no substitute for studying under doctors and highly educated professors and also beside your peers. The college environment is made to be stimulating in every way: a professional learning center if you will.


Edited by XUL (10/15/13 04:59 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18982243 - 10/15/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A second BA is pretty close to worthless, though.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18982255 - 10/15/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

People ought to take responsibility for the course of their lives and not blame schools, culture, or any other outside influence. No one is being forced into a class, a job, or anything else. There's always the woods :taco:

I am grateful for what I did. I went to college, and realized I hadn't put enough thought into my long term overall goals (I still need to put more thought into them to this day) and was just an ignorant kid. So I dropped out, worked some shitty jobs, and got some perspective on things.

Then I went to welding school, got some international certifications, and worked for/learned from a navy submarine chief - a master weldor/fabricator and business owner - I learned more from working with that man than every other job I've had in my life combined. About work ethic, technical aspects, taking pride in your work, doing everything with precision and attention to detail. After that now I work for an oil subcontractor out here in the oil fields of ND and make excellent money, am the lead weldor/fabricator and technical specialist for a company worth a billion dollars and I'm just 25 years old. What the future holds will only get better.

The certifications and diplomas just set me apart and now people (even my boss and just about anyone in the company) defer to me because of my diligence and hard work. With that comes respect, money, and a lot of autonomy/freedom. What more could I ask for? :raveface:

Plus there are a lot of related fields that welding/fabricating touches on so really I can bounce around to do a lot of different things - the certs/diploma just say I'm no dummy and can learn new tricks :datass:

Hooray for education!


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Invisiblemr sniffles
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18982258 - 10/15/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i just failed an exam that cost me 47.5% of my fucking grade. so much for going into my first class 45 minutes late everyday.


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18983766 - 10/15/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A second BA is pretty close to worthless, though.





It's a B.S., and yes it may seem that way, but really its not. I am learning some amazing material.

Education is never worthless, especially if you seek education and remain "impartial" to the diploma.

I hope to remain a student for life - taking classes throughout my entire lifetime, or at least doing some research. I recently had a talk with my professor, Dr. N. He is an older man who will retire from teaching next year. He said he is going to go study biology somewhere because he is interested in it.

I thought that was awesome.


Edited by XUL (10/16/13 07:05 AM)


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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18984001 - 10/15/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMovement said:
I think about this every day.  I have to choose ONE specific set of classes that will set a path for the rest of my life, and im only 20 years old.  I thought university was about learning, not just funneling kids through the system to a degree.

You're telling me I can't take history, english classes because im majoring in a science?  Thats complete bullshit.



I don't know what Uni you went to but there was no restrictions on what classes I could and could not take, unless it was a higher level class that required a prereq, that was the only limiting thing.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
I feel like I can't take certain class' and I can't hold down a job while going to school because I'm not smart enough.:shrug:

Also my state fucks us with federal min wage.



The world needs ditch diggers, too.



Yes, yes it does, but at least those ditch diggers have a respectable job in some circles, unlike lawyers.

Go to school or don't, the only people who have problems in life are the ones who don't live within their means.

:cheers:


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: unknown1123]
    #18984081 - 10/15/13 11:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They don't beat children for not learning? I know that sucks.


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OfflineViol
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18984825 - 10/16/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
I feel like I can't take certain class' and I can't hold down a job while going to school because I'm not smart enough.:shrug:

Also my state fucks us with federal min wage.



The world needs ditch diggers, too.






Being a ditch digger doesn't sound half bad, actually..... I mean, just give me some good music and my headphones and I will be in heaven.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18984913 - 10/16/13 05:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
A second BA is pretty close to worthless, though.





It's a B.S., and yes it may seem that way, but really it's not. I am learning some amazing material.

Education is never worthless, especially if you seek education and remain "impartial" to the diploma.





I was replying TO you, not ABOUT you, which should have been clear by the fact that I specified a BA while you were talking about a science degree.  The fact that you confused the two makes me doubt the efficacy of your education.

Further, I said that a second BA is worthless...not that the education is.  Having a second BA, however does absolutely nothing for anyone.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: unknown1123]
    #18984924 - 10/16/13 05:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
the only people who have problems in life are the ones who don't live within their means.





You're living in a fairytale world, kid.  Everyone has problems in life whether or not they live within their means.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Patlal]
    #18984930 - 10/16/13 06:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Nowadays, you need a diploma to scrub toilets. Not that it's wrong to get diplomas. What I hate is that is you have a diploma in administration, you have imprisoned yourself to work in admin until you decide to go get another diploma (wasting another 4 years and adding debts).





I saw janitorial jobs that were requiring a bachelors degree. the company I
work at, that admin degree puts you in line for a job paying $148k/yr, a HS
diploma can get you payed 90k/yr. it's a non union company with better
pay/benefits than the union gigs and from what I've seen, it's almost
impossible to get fired, you literally have to get into a fight in the shop
before they'll get rid of you




Quote:

Anyone else here is trap behind the bars of his diploma?





nope, not when it comes to earning potential, I may not get some fancy
title)though I have one now) but the money I make is pretty good and
about to be even better


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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18984968 - 10/16/13 06:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

unknown1123 said:
the only people who have problems in life are the ones who don't live within their means.





You're living in a fairytale world, kid.  Everyone has problems in life whether or not they live within their means.



financial...

Those who don't live within their means and forget to plan for the future have financial problems, which lead to many more problems


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985053 - 10/16/13 07:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
A second BA is pretty close to worthless, though.





It's a B.S., and yes it may seem that way, but really it's not. I am learning some amazing material.

Education is never worthless, especially if you seek education and remain "impartial" to the diploma.





I was replying TO you, not ABOUT you, which should have been clear by the fact that I specified a BA while you were talking about a science degree.  The fact that you confused the two makes me doubt the efficacy of your education.

Further, I said that a second BA is worthless...not that the education is.  Having a second BA, however does absolutely nothing for anyone.





At my university you may earn a B.A. in psychology or a B.S. :shrug:

I think it's a pretty big inference to say that a BA is worthless, but you are entitled to your own opinion. I have a BFA and it already paid off in so many ways. That is, in the interactive world and subjectively in my mind.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985069 - 10/16/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say a BA is worthless...I said a SECOND BA is worthless.


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985077 - 10/16/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I didn't say a BA is worthless...I said a SECOND BA is worthless.





How do you figure?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985081 - 10/16/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Because it adds nothing to your resume/marketability.  It says nothing about your level of education, either.  One can get an education without a degree and one can get a degree without an education.

The first BA has a value because it proves that you can finish a disciplined curriculum.  It means something on a resume (although not much).  A second one means nothing.

If anything, when I see a second BA on a resume, it tells me that the person was not yet ready to grow up and face the real world.


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Offlinempd
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985095 - 10/16/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with schools is that they no longer impart knowledge upon kids that is valued in the market, instead; they pile on political rhetoric designed to make you feel good, but not do anything of real value.  The lowest common denominator is what education has become all about.  Nobody can rise above the lowest of the lows.

Liberalism - it's expensive AND useless.


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985101 - 10/16/13 07:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Because it adds nothing to your resume/marketability.  It says nothing about your level of education, either.




Hypothetical situation.

A man earns a B.F.A. when he is young. He doesn't do anything with it. When he is older he earns a B.A. in psychology and earns a middle-upper management position in a company.

It does a play a role in level of education and you can tell that from my example. The man knew nothing about psychology or social work and so he could not obtain a middle-upper management position. In reaction he decided to study psychology and earn a B.A. which granted him a higher level of education in a specific area and a better job.

There are so many possible scenarios that you must take into perspective when considering the issue.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985125 - 10/16/13 07:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Your hypothetical is irrelevant to anything I've said since it doesn't include a second BA.

Nonetheless, the BA in your hypothetical is just as worthless as a second BA because it doesn't prove that the holder is any more educated than he was with the BFA.  A degree doesn't mean someone is educated.  It is just a piece of paper used to serve a gatekeeper function.  Once you have one, you have no need for a second one.

Getting a second BA is like doing the same crossword puzzle twice.  I defy you to show me any job listing that requires "at least two BA degrees."


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OfflineXUL
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985135 - 10/16/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I defy you to admit that earning education for the simple sake of learning does not improve a man nor his abilities. What about a man who studies because he is only and just interested in numbers? Defy this man won't you?



Edited by XUL (10/16/13 08:00 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985145 - 10/16/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
I defy you to admit that earning education for the simple sake of learning does not improve a man nor his abilities. What about a man who studies because he is only and just interested in numbers? Defy this man won't you?





For someone who claims to be educated, your reading comprehension is piss-poor.  I didn't say that education had no value.  I said that a second BA has no value.  See below:

Quote:


Further, I said that a second BA is worthless...not that the education is.  Having a second BA, however does absolutely nothing for anyone.




You seem to confuse degrees with education.  They aren't the same.  Truthfully, they aren't even related to one another.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985172 - 10/16/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough. So use the first example where a man wants to study for his B.A. in psychology. Would you defy this man because he is chasing a B.A.?

I never said I am educated. Fuck, I might be a dumb ass. But at least I give it a try. I mean, I can honestly say I have learned a lot in school. I love every moment of it.

What is the point of arguing?

So you believe that earning additional education, especially a B.A., is a waste of time and money when pertaining to the jobs.

I maintain that an education has much to offer to an individual of any age.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985176 - 10/16/13 08:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:

So you believe that earning additional education, especially a B.A., is a waste of time and money when pertaining to the jobs.




When you learn to read, you should go over this thread again.  I never said that additional education is a waste of time at all.  I said that the second BA...the actual degree...is worthless. 

You clearly can't understand that the two don't have anything to do with each other.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985194 - 10/16/13 08:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the actual degree...is worthless. 




And what exactly does this imply?


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985203 - 10/16/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nothing.  It explicitly states that the second BA has no value.  It is worthless.  It isn't even worth the cost of the frame to put it in.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985223 - 10/16/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

what it really comes down to is this.


Point:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Nothing.  It explicitly states that the second BA has no value.  It is worthless.  It isn't even worth the cost of the frame to put it in.




Counterpoint:

Quote:

I maintain that an education (even a BA) has much to offer to an individual of any age.




Edited by XUL (10/16/13 08:38 AM)


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: XUL]
    #18985239 - 10/16/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, I'm done with you.  You're never going to understand.  A BA isn't education.  It's a degree.  One can get a degree without getting an education and one can get an education without getting a degree. Education and degrees are not the same thing.  They are almost entirely unrelated to each other.

I think I significantly overestimated your intelligence, but I won't make that mistake again.


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Re: The problem with education today [Re: Enlil]
    #18985259 - 10/16/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A BA isn't education.  It's a degree.

A degree implies education and thus education is a degree.

:whatyougonnado:


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