Home | Community | Message Board

Original Seeds Store
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | Next >
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18978708 - 10/14/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:

You should watch this interview with Dennett, but if you don't watch the entire interview, watch at least the part starting at 19:30 or so where he discusses the biological basis for religious belief. He certainly does not sound like he's diminishing religion's importance. In fact, what he is saying is that we don't know enough to say that getting rid of religious belief would be good at all.



Oh dear, at 33:40 dan Dennett calls for the compulsory education of world religions in schools. 

Anyone who listens to this interview will see that the description of new atheists in this thread is completely off base. I was going to call the portrayals "caricatures," but that word implies there is at least a resemblance to the truth. :cookiemonster:




okay, i watched the whole interview. unfortunately i think i'm as confounded by dennett as moyers seemed to be. dennett's position is duplicitous. i'll grant you that he seems to revere religion from a traditional sense. and he rightfully criticizes literalists who seek to force their beliefs on others. but in spite of professing at the beginning of the interview that his atheism "isn't all that important", he seems to want a confrontation with all religious devotees, literalist or otherwise, which doesn't seem to render dennett in any better light than the fools he criticizes.

i'm beginning to see the truth about this group of so-called "brights" and their disciples (pun intended). koods, i understand why you contradict yourself; you follow thinkers who contradict themselves. i stand by my original points because ultimately, the argument that comes through loud and clear from dennett and people like him, above anything else, is that religious people are stupid. and if religious people are stupid, then why bother with learning about them or their traditions? at no point in the interview was i under the impression that dennett is informed at even a junior college level on the subject of religion. in fact i was taken aback at the flagrance of his claims. do we really need daniel dennett to inform us that nobody to this day has come to a consensus regarding the nature of god? or that proof of god's existence lies beyond the lens of scientific inquiry? dennett may be onto something with his scientific research, but as a social critic i think i'll continue to take a pass.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (10/14/13 09:33 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18978817 - 10/14/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

they are basically critics of religion. all they do is look for people with religious beliefs, or non-scientific beliefs, and pretty much bash them for it. it's almost like a bully going up to another kid and teasing him because he is wearing a pink shirt. i can stand one's opinions regardless of it's material, what i can't stand is when they speak their own opinions while also demeaning the opinions of others with very little knowledge of the subject at hand.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: zZZz]
    #18979024 - 10/14/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
they are basically critics of religion. all they do is look for people with religious beliefs, or non-scientific beliefs, and pretty much bash them for it. it's almost like a bully going up to another kid and teasing him because he is wearing a pink shirt. i can stand one's opinions regardless of it's material, what i can't stand is when they speak their own opinions while also demeaning the opinions of others with very little knowledge of the subject at hand.




that seems to match my impression of them. i don't really care if someone criticizes religion. i certainly have my own criticisms. but it's hard to take anyone's opinions seriously when they contradict themselves and don't know what they're talking about to begin with.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleunknown1123
Experimental

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 5,813
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18979376 - 10/14/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tripp23 said:
"We were sent to hell for an eternity; we play on earth to pass the time."  That's hands down, my favorite quote I've ever heard.  Why?  Because it has so much meaning.  Think about it.  We could have liven a life before this, something else, something way different or better or whatever it was.  We've done wrong in that life so we were sent here.  "Some kind of purpose, a glimpse of a light in this void of existence". 

Why here?  Think about it deeper.  One day, you just pop into existence.  You slowly grow up and begin to remember your life and who you are.  You finally figure out how evil the world is and corrupt people are.  But most of all, you realize......  "Where the hell am I?  I just randomly pop into existence in a random time in a completely random place and I have no recollection of how/why/who/what/where/when I am..  And every time I try to figure something out, it disappears and gets replaced by even more of a mindfuck."  For example, think of how people used to think the world was flat.  Then we discovered it's a ball.  But in what?  Space.  How far does space go?  Never ending?  Why?  The cycle never ends.  So we can never truly figure anything out with out it becoming a great problem or we can't figure out why were here or even how we got here!?..

Forced to live without our consent from birth (whether we like it or not). Trapped in a mortal body that feels pain.  All we have is our own thoughts.  How do we know if reality is not just a projection/hologram?  We have no answers to anything for no reason.  Nobody else may be conscious but you; is a scary thought.  A physical world.  Trapped in a random universe for the rest of eternity.  The universe is a never ending void of darkness.  If anything, life is the thing to be afraid of.

Are you afraid of hell?  I am.



intense man, intense


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,406
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 3 hours, 26 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18979402 - 10/14/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

koods said:

Anyone who listens to this interview will see that the description of new atheists in this thread is completely off base. I was going to call the portrayals "caricatures," but that word implies there is at least a resemblance to the truth. :cookiemonster:




lol, we'll see about that. but i will watch your video and give you my thoughts afterward. thank you for that even though you had to go back and edit your reply to insert a little jab.  :tongue:




Oh, the jab came after I watched the entire video. Even I was surprised how dissimilar Dennett sounds from these descriptions.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefapjack
Title
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #18979575 - 10/15/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Has anyone heard of this?  Some guy has had a 10,000 cash prize available if anyone can provide him a piece of evidence of a god or supernatural powers.  It has been like 40 years and no one has collected.






The same can be said to prove that their is no god.  If anyone could do either they would change humanity forever, who cares about the money.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLSDreams
Contemplative Stoner
Male


Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 1,184
Loc: Stuck in 3rd Dimension
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: fapjack]
    #18979699 - 10/15/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Regardless of your beliefs, you all should hear the tale behind the Membrane Theory of how the universe was created. Although it is just an endeavor to explain the ancient origins of our universe, and does not explain everything, it is an incredible start though.

Doesnt hurt to imagine what theyre talking about...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleApollyphelion Happy Birthday!
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
Female User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: fapjack]
    #18979715 - 10/15/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I like to think of Science as a Human, and religion as another type of animal, say a little bug.

The are both related,
both philosophies of sorts.

However the applications of science are far more useful,
more noble, and can affect everyone.

That little bug that is religion will never ask the right questions, will never cure diseases, invent rubber, invent flight, communications everything basically good in the world was the result of an experiment, logic/physics and mistakes from an experiment. Even the absolutely beautiful churches that have been built could not have without physics, and an understanding of matter. You could never pray that church into existence.

So yes, science and religion are kin in a way, but they have way less in common than many people think.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #18979759 - 10/15/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

science and religion do go hand in hand. both have done a lot of harm, and both have done a great good. just like kood's quote reads, "Science flies rockets to the moon, religion flies planes into buildings", yea religion flies planes into buildings, but science made the plane, the tall buildings, and it even gave people the intelligence to even pull something like that off.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,406
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 3 hours, 26 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: zZZz]
    #18979770 - 10/15/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, science was the method from which airplanes were invented. Religion was the motivation to fly those planes into buildings. Totally different.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18979787 - 10/15/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

indeed, science invented the airplanes, religion may have motivated it, but if it wasn't for science we'd be fighting with sticks and stones. thanks to science we are now fighting with guns, bombs, bigger bombs, and weapons of mass destruction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,406
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 3 hours, 26 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: zZZz] * 1
    #18979815 - 10/15/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, it's all god's fault.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18979827 - 10/15/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

that's what i'd say if i didn't want to admit responsibility for my own actions.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHobozen
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc: Flag
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: zZZz]
    #18979832 - 10/15/13 02:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i skry with my third eye

no seriously tho.. eat some shrooms and get your best mate and lock eyes for as long as it takes for shit to get very weird.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18980463 - 10/15/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

koods said:

Anyone who listens to this interview will see that the description of new atheists in this thread is completely off base. I was going to call the portrayals "caricatures," but that word implies there is at least a resemblance to the truth. :cookiemonster:




lol, we'll see about that. but i will watch your video and give you my thoughts afterward. thank you for that even though you had to go back and edit your reply to insert a little jab.  :tongue:




Oh, the jab came after I watched the entire video. Even I was surprised how dissimilar Dennett sounds from these descriptions.




i watched the entire video as well. see above for my response. i stand by my original points.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 18 hours, 35 minutes
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #18980629 - 10/15/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Apollyphelion said:
I like to think of Science as a Human, and religion as another type of animal, say a little bug.

The are both related,
both philosophies of sorts.

However the applications of science are far more useful,
more noble, and can affect everyone.

That little bug that is religion will never ask the right questions, will never cure diseases, invent rubber, invent flight, communications everything basically good in the world was the result of an experiment, logic/physics and mistakes from an experiment. Even the absolutely beautiful churches that have been built could not have without physics, and an understanding of matter. You could never pray that church into existence.
I like to think of Science as a Human, and religion as another type of animal, say a little bug.

The are both related,
both philosophies of sorts.

However the applications of science are far more useful,
more noble, and can affect everyone.

So yes, science and religion are kin in a way, but they have way less in common than many people think.



Is this surprising? They pursue knowledge of the world using different methodologies, of course the results will have fundamental differences as well. A term coming into favour is to refer to these two systems of thought as "non-overlapping magisteria".

Perhaps other folks have different definitions, but I see religious/spiritual systems of thoughts focusing on the internal, subjective human experience--and I think these can be just as useful, noble, and wide reaching as scientific systems of thoughts that deal with the material and objective.

I'm not claiming religion is perfect, or a replacement for science--but your dismissal of religion as a 'bug' standing next to the scientific 'human' shows a disdain for the former, and I think it's made you come to more sweeping general conclusions than is possible.

What of the religious thinkers throughout the ages? Can you so easily make the claim that religion had no role in compelling, for example, Gregor Mendel to study the natural world?

How about the early schools of hindu philosophy--hindu sages use a system of thought known as Nyaya, which maintains that logical argument and rational proof is the way to obtain correct knowledge. The oldest school of hindu philosophy, Samkhya, prescribes a particular method to analyze knowledge--(1) Pratyaksa, direct sense perception; (2) Anumana, logical inference; and (3) Sabda, verbal testimony; the Nyaya school adds (4) Upamana, comparison. Hindu scholasticism, and ancient Indian scientific advancements were basically one and the same.

What of Ibn al-Haytham, and his contemporaries in the world of islamic scientific tradition? It's generally believed that this is where the modern scientific method developed, and from an islamic standpoint the study of nature (science) is directly linked to the concept of Tawhid, the oneness of god--how can you make a separation between science and religion, when the thinkers themselves perceived a direct connection between the two?

And finally, what about buddhist schools of thought? In my opinion, this is the most noble of all schools of thought--scientific, religious, or whatever else you have--because it's central concern is with the cessation of suffering for all existence--it's call the 'Noble Eightfold Path' for a reason. Buddhist meditative practices and psychology, practiced for thousands of years, are now being studied by modern researchers--and as brain scanning technology improves, so does our scientific understanding of how mindfulness, compassion, and other buddhist mind-states/practices can lead to both subjective insights and physical benefits.

Read the Kalama Sutta:
"Yes, Kalamas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, not by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea: 'this is our teacher'. But, O Kalamas, when you know for yourselves that certain things are unwholesome (akusala), and wrong, and bad, then give them up...And when you know for yourselves that certain things are wholesome (kusala) and good, then accept them and follow them."

Still think religion never asks the right questions?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemillzy
Male

Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18980920 - 10/15/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Apollyphelion said:
I like to think of Science as a Human, and religion as another type of animal, say a little bug.

The are both related,
both philosophies of sorts.

However the applications of science are far more useful,
more noble, and can affect everyone.

That little bug that is religion will never ask the right questions, will never cure diseases, invent rubber, invent flight, communications everything basically good in the world was the result of an experiment, logic/physics and mistakes from an experiment. Even the absolutely beautiful churches that have been built could not have without physics, and an understanding of matter. You could never pray that church into existence.
I like to think of Science as a Human, and religion as another type of animal, say a little bug.

The are both related,
both philosophies of sorts.

However the applications of science are far more useful,
more noble, and can affect everyone.

So yes, science and religion are kin in a way, but they have way less in common than many people think.





Is this surprising? They pursue knowledge of the world using different methodologies, of course the results will have fundamental differences as well. A term coming into favour is to refer to these two systems of thought as "non-overlapping magisteria".

Perhaps other folks have different definitions, but I see religious/spiritual systems of thoughts focusing on the internal, subjective human experience--and I think these can be just as useful, noble, and wide reaching as scientific systems of thoughts that deal with the material and objective.

I'm not claiming religion is perfect, or a replacement for science--but your dismissal of religion as a 'bug' standing next to the scientific 'human' shows a disdain for the former, and I think it's made you come to more sweeping general conclusions than is possible.

What of the religious thinkers throughout the ages? Can you so easily make the claim that religion had no role in compelling, for example, Gregor Mendel to study the natural world?

How about the early schools of hindu philosophy--hindu sages use a system of thought known as Nyaya, which maintains that logical argument and rational proof is the way to obtain correct knowledge. The oldest school of hindu philosophy, Samkhya, prescribes a particular method to analyze knowledge--(1) Pratyaksa, direct sense perception; (2) Anumana, logical inference; and (3) Sabda, verbal testimony; the Nyaya school adds (4) Upamana, comparison. Hindu scholasticism, and ancient Indian scientific advancements were basically one and the same.

What of Ibn al-Haytham, and his contemporaries in the world of islamic scientific tradition? It's generally believed that this is where the modern scientific method developed, and from an islamic standpoint the study of nature (science) is directly linked to the concept of Tawhid, the oneness of god--how can you make a separation between science and religion, when the thinkers themselves perceived a direct connection between the two?

And finally, what about buddhist schools of thought? In my opinion, this is the most noble of all schools of thought--scientific, religious, or whatever else you have--because it's central concern is with the cessation of suffering for all existence--it's call the 'Noble Eightfold Path' for a reason. Buddhist meditative practices and psychology, practiced for thousands of years, are now being studied by modern researchers--and as brain scanning technology improves, so does our scientific understanding of how mindfulness, compassion, and other buddhist mind-states/practices can lead to both subjective insights and physical benefits.

Read the Kalama Sutta:
"Yes, Kalamas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, not by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea: 'this is our teacher'. But, O Kalamas, when you know for yourselves that certain things are unwholesome (akusala), and wrong, and bad, then give them up...And when you know for yourselves that certain things are wholesome (kusala) and good, then accept them and follow them."

Still think religion never asks the right questions?




great post. i would also add that, in addition to the thinkers you've mentioned, we also have descartes, a jesuit (see also: priest) who was a pioneer in scientific fields, most notably natural science as well as mathematics; descartes discovered the nervous system in addition to inventing analytical geometry. descartes' "meditations on first philosophy in which the existence of god and the distinction between the soul and the body are demonstrated" played no small role in shaping the scientific method we know today. while religious in tone, "the meditations" sought to establish a method for finding truth, to which thinkers like leibniz, spinoza, locke, berkely and hume responded, further refining this method. all of these thinkers were religious. even hume in his skepticism seems to never fully settle into outright rejection of religion. and the ruling deity of scientism, isaac newton, was most certainly not atheist.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMorphinTime
Tulpa
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 7,151
Loc: Angel Grove
Last seen: 16 days, 12 hours
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: millzy]
    #18981206 - 10/15/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I wouldn't argue that useful questions cannot be asked by religious thinkers, but I don't think religion necessarily is or was needed to ask them so much as curiosity.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinempd
Lammen Gorthaur
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 9,660
Loc: Mostly at home... Mostly....
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: koods]
    #18981220 - 10/15/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Actually, it's all god's fault.




Personally, I blame George W. Bush for all of it.


--------------------
There is no truer calling for mankind than that of true conservatism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: 10,000 if you can provide proof of god or supernatural? [Re: mpd]
    #18981360 - 10/15/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It was all koods fault, he didnt believe in the flying spaghetti monster and now were all being punished for it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | Next >

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* I Am the True God fireworks_godS 1,427 17 11/21/03 03:31 PM
by fireworks_god
* $100,000 challenge spacedragon 1,196 3 09/01/03 07:24 PM
by Crass
* Proof that lsd effects machines Lazerouth 2,016 17 10/18/03 05:27 AM
by DreaMaTrix
* Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor? SkorpivoMusterion 1,088 10 12/27/03 01:36 AM
by DailyPot
* may have killed at least 20,000 djfrog 904 2 12/26/03 05:27 PM
by djfrog
* help with mycological site for a 10 year old........ ChromeCrow 2,181 13 12/24/03 07:45 AM
by Ripple
* Top 10 Reasons MJshroomer doesn't answer my Private Message: GGreatOne234 1,551 7 09/17/03 05:27 PM
by Its Pat
* 10 year old punk band TheBear 2,088 10 10/21/02 08:11 AM
by ShroomSkin

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
12,864 topic views. 6 members, 38 guests and 46 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.023 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.