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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18970217 - 10/12/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.




Hmmm. Where does one get this? Florida makes everything Schedule I as soon as they hear about it. They're afraid of more zombies down here (zombie is a Haitian word of course, so it figures).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18970294 - 10/12/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.




Hmmm. Where does one get this? Florida makes everything Schedule I as soon as they hear about it. They're afraid of more zombies down here (zombie is a Haitian word of course, so it figures).





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#United_States

Kratom itself is not regulated by the United States federal government, though the Drug Enforcement Administration includes the tree in its "Drug and Chemical of Concern" list.[26]
Indiana House of Representatives HB1196, sponsored by Edward DeLaney, Steve Davisson, Terri Austin, Vernon G. Smith, and David Yarde during the 2012 regular session as a response to increasing synthetic drug use, made Indiana the first and only state to ban chemicals in kratom, although indirectly.[27] The text of the bill added kratom's two active alkaloids—mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine—to the state's list of controlled substances, though kratom itself is not synthetic and was not specifically addressed by the authors of the bill. Due to kratom not be being on the banned plants list nor being a synthetic, kratom is still legal in Indiana. Although most interpreted the law wrong, kratom was never banned and is still legal in Indiana.
Iowa legislators grouped Mitragyna speciosa as a synthetic cannabinoid when a bill was proposed that would reclassify nearly all controlled substances in their state.[28][29] The Louisiana legislature proposed an age limit of 18 to be able to legally purchase, possess and consume kratom. Violators would have been assessed a penalty of no more than $500, or sentenced to six months in jail, or both.[30] Massachusetts Representative Daniel K. Webster sponsored legislation in 2011 that would have included compounds of Mitragyna speciosa in the state's controlled substance classification list.[31]


~~

This is where things seem to stand.

My personal experience was a strong, warm, fuzzy, opiate like high (but short lived, about a half hour body buzz), with a boring, sedative comedown.  I may have taken a higher dose, but consumed as a tea as opposed to encapsulated :shrug: : It's been a decade though, and  I've became moderately curious to reevaluate with recent talk on the forums... so ordered from a Portland vendor last night actually.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18971346 - 10/13/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
I didn't say information was totally unrelated to energy, rather that it is not convertible to energy. The information in the brain can't be changed into energy which still contains that information. It's illogical.

As for the whole inability to merge with the light due to confusion, I've experienced that on acid. I remember being sure of my own death, in a very materialistic sense. I was scared, terrified really, then I sort of went through this thought process I've expressed except it was a fraction of a second, and I realized I wasn't afraid of death. I was completely comfortable with ceasing to exist. Then I merged with the universe and became one with the "tapestry of souls" as I put it. The most poignant aspect of that trip in retrospect was that when I merged, I had no memory of myself here. I wasn't me anymore. I was the universe. I no longer existed as the person I was on this planet. It was quite interesting, but I try hard not to take the things I experience on these drugs too seriously, as after all, I have injested a mind altering substance.

The energy from our bodies does move onto other life lol. In the form of food for worms as ConfettiHead referenced. (Gonna have to check that movie out, sounds really good).

I understand that reality is so far beyond our comprehension that it's worthless to even think about these things. That's really my whole point. There's no point in trying to understand death as anything beyond nothingness, as even if there is an afterlife, whatever experiences it after you die is not you. It is a form of transformed energy. Thus, you, as in you here, are gone. Poof. I feel that life would be more well spent focusing on the here and now and how to improve it, rather than on how to prepare for what may or may not come after death. It's irrational to do so IMO.





Good post. :thumbup: But I must ask, what about radio waves? Or other electromagnetic waves put off by electronic devices? Aren't we able to send information from one side of the globe to the other simply because of these energy waves? It's all a part of the broad electromagnetic spectrum, the sun being the greatest source of that type of energy. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just speculating here, but isn't that essentially information converted to energy?

Aside from that, I'd have to agree with you that pondering such matters (like the existence of the soul or afterlife) really is a waste of time. We will not come to a conclusive end on the matter anytime soon, I don't think. Interestingly enough, the more I discourse on it, the more I realize that it is folly. It reminds me of when the Buddha was asked if there is a soul or not:

Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks,

'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman?'

The Buddha is silent.

'Then Venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?'

Again the Buddha is silent.

Vacchagotta gets up and goes away.

The main point: The Buddha regarded soul-speculation as useless and illusory.

I, on the other hand, enjoy soul-speculation because the "what if" of it all gives me a grand sense of wonder, as if I were a child again or as if I was on some heavy psychotropic chemicals again. :mushroom2: But the deeper I go, the deeper I realize that pondering such matters may not be the best use of my time.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18971387 - 10/13/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for double posting, but while we were on the topic of information converted to energy, I found something interesting:



For the first time, scientists have converted information into pure energy, experimentally verifying a thought experiment first proposed 150 years ago.

The idea was originally formulated by physicist James Clerk Maxwell, but it gained controversy because it appeared to violate the second law of thermodynamics. Put in experimental terms, this law states that when hot and cold water are mixed, they will eventually reach an equilibrium middling temperature.

Maxwell proposed that a hypothetical being (later dubbed Maxwell's demon) could separate the water into two compartments and reverse the process, isolating hot molecules from cold by letting only the hotter-than-average through a trap-door between the compartments.

Because mixed water is considered more disordered (i.e. of higher entropy) than separated water, the demon has converted a system from a state of disorder to a state of order, using only information (the knowledge of which molecules were hot and cold).

That seemed to violate the law, which also states that entropy should not decrease in an isolated system. In other words, the demon should not have been able to separate the hot and cold water without expending energy.

Later Hungarian physicist Leó Szilárd proposed that the process does not violate the laws of physics, because the demon would in fact have had to expend some energy to ascertain which molecules are hot and cold.

Putting it into action

While scientists have continued to debate the theory, never before has anyone put the experiment into action.
Recently, physicist Shoichi Toyabe of Chuo University in Japan and colleagues did just that.

"Nowadays we have the technology, even single molecules can be observed and we can control very small elements very quickly, so in principle it's not difficult to make a kind of Maxwell's demon," said study coauthor Masaki Sano of the University of Tokyo.

The researchers set up a very miniature version of a spiral staircase and caused a molecule to climb up this staircase using information.

In the setup, the staircase was actually made of potential energy and created using electric fields. The molecule had some thermal energy – heat – so it would fluctuate, moving in random directions.

The scientists used a high-speed camera to photograph the molecule. When it happened to be moving up the staircase, they let it move freely, but when it happened to be moving down the staircase, the researchers blocked its motion by inserting a virtual wall using an electric field.

"It's like the particle is making random steps up or down, but only when the particle goes up the stairs, we put some wall on the stairs to avoid the particle falling down," Sano told LiveScience. "This is kind of a Maxwell's demon."

As the particle moved up the staircase, it gained energy because it moved to a location of higher potential – akin to climbing a mountain. Yet the researchers never had to push the particle up the mountain (i.e. do work or input energy) – they simply used the information about which direction it happened to be moving in at any given time to guide the climb.

Energy boost

Not only were the researchers able to move the particle up the stairs, but they were able to precisely measure how much energy was converted from information.

The researchers describe their results in the Nov. 14 online edition of the journal Nature Physics.

In an accompanying essay in the same issue of the journal, physicist Christian Van den Broeck of the University of Hasselt in Belgium, who was not involved in the new study, called it "a direct verification of information-to-energy conversion."

While the experiment itself does show that it's possible to create energy out of information, in practice, the technique doesn't offer potential for solving the energy crisis any time soon.

"The true energetic cost of this information-to-energy conversion experiment lies somewhat hidden in its huge peripheral apparatus (including the doctoral student who is operating the experiment)," Van den Broeck wrote. "As such, the experiment is reminiscent of producing a tiny shot of energy from nuclear fusion in a reactor that is consuming considerably more energy."

-taken from livescience.com

Now I'm not sure what the implications of this experiment are on life and death and the hereafter. I'm still trying to figure all of that out. But, I must say, this is an interesting experiment nonetheless.


--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18971920 - 10/13/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That really is interesting.

In response to ConfettiHead, I feel I need to clarify. The way I look at it, memory, which makes who we are, is stored in the brain, in the form of networks of neurons I believe. When you die, your brain dies. Those networks are not somehow transformed into energy still containing that information. They die, they rot in the ground, and give the decomposers something to decompose. Your body is transformed into energy by decomposers, which are then eaten by whatever is next in the food chain. The energy you are made of, in the form of your biology, doesn't just turn into energy on its own, rather it travels through the food chain, providing energy for other forms of life.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/13/13 11:49 AM)


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18972043 - 10/13/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Stellarshnap and ConfettiHead,

I actually agree with most of your analyses (and the one about the energy being converted to more life through the decay process is especially insightful,) with the following reservation:

From current physics, we know that there are more than the three dimensions (four, counting time) that we can detect. 

As I see it, when we talk about what happens in death and afterwards, we are talking about what is reasonable to assume in terms of our knowledge of this three or four dimensional world of our daily lives.

But we know that there are more than those, so I see our attempts to describe this as being as futile as a hypothetical person in a two-dimensional world (a Photo, for example) trying to determine the size of a three dimensional ball.

The ball, intersected by the plane of the two dimensional world, would be seen by us in the three dimensional "real world" as a dome, but in the two dimensional world, that dome would only be seen as a straight line.  The observer's vision could not leave the plane and the curvature we see would not show unless the observer could rise above the plane.

Observing the fate of the energy of life at the moment of death is akin to the two-dimensional observer trying to determine anything about his observations of the three dimensional ball.

It will always be impossible, and for reasons that the universe that we live in imposes limitations that are both unknowable to us, and impossible to overcome.

In my case, I have no expectations but I do recognize possibilities.  My ultimate goal, if indeed it can be so phrased, is to get off the wheel (if such exists) and not have another turn.

That may well happen, but it may equally be for reasons currently unknowable, that range from the simple fact that there is no "universal energy field," or "Void," or any other term of art for what lies after death.  There may simply be nothing.

That's cool also.  However, the prudent man, even one with no expectations, will prepare for what he believes is a reasonably possible outcome.  I am reasonably confident that there are more than four dimensions and I believe that this may be involved at death.

But that's just me and my milage.  Your's may definitely vary, and that's cool too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18972088 - 10/13/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, I didn't need you to clarify. I completely understood your position, that's why I added to it by throwing in the Dead Poet's Society lines about humans becoming fertilizer for daffodils and food for worms. But again, you are basing your position on the belief that the brain is the sole source of consciousness and that consciousness cannot exist outside of that brain.

The existence of consciousness as dependent on or independent of brain function continues to be a heated debate among researchers, medical professionals, philosophers, and those involved in spirituality. What is consciousness and why is it such a hotly debated topic?

Research on consciousness has been underway at a number of prestigious educational institutions for years. Medical professionals are researching consciousness as they study the near-death experiences (NDE) of patients under controlled conditions and in large self-report studies. Other medical professionals have experienced their own NDEs which have completely flipped their understanding of the involvement of the brain with consciousness.

Gary Schwartz, Professor of psychology, medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery at the University of Arizona and Director of its Laboratory for Advances in Consciousness and Health, has a solid track record in research related to the nature of consciousness. Based on his extensive research published in peer-reviewed journals and several books, Schwartz contends in “The Afterlife Experiments: Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death” that “consciousness exists independently of the brain. It does not depend upon the brain for its survival. Mind is first, the brain is second. The brain is not the creator of mind; it is a powerful tool of the mind. The brain is an antenna/receiver for the mind, like a sophisticated television or cell phone.”

Faculty members in the Division of Perceptual Studies, at the University of Virginia, presented in 2007 a rigorous and exhaustive analysis of the data on out-of-body consciousness in “Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century.” Their work emphasizes the need to understand such phenomena in order to comprehend the reality of our existence.

Pim van Lommel, MD, has been systematically studying near death experiences for more than 20 years by interviewing hospital patients who survived a cardiac arrest soon after that experience. van Lommel’s research methodology enhances the strength of his findings because the medical details of each subject are objectively confirmed and documented in contrast to retrospective studies which rely solely on subject recall years after the event. One of the primary contributions of his book, “Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-death Experience,” is van Lommel’s detailed application of quantum theory to the near-death experience presented in an effort to understand the results of his NDE research. According to van Lommel, “Quantum theory cannot explain consciousness, but in conjunction with the results and conclusions from NDE research it can contribute to a better understanding of the transition or interface between consciousness and the brain. The brain and the body merely function as an interface or relay station to receive part of our total consciousness and part of our memories into our waking consciousness. Ultimately, we cannot avoid the conclusion that endless consciousness has always been and always will be, independent of the body.”

Jeffrey Long, MD, started the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation in 1998 and, through his data collection instrument on their website, has collected detailed evidence on NDEs from individuals around the world. Based on this research, Long contends in “Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences” that “the level of consciousness and alertness during near-death experiences is usually greater than that experienced during everyday life, even though NDEs generally occur while a person is unconscious or clinically dead.” One surprising element that Long’s research discovered supporting consciousness as independent of the brain is that “normal or supernormal vision occurs in near-death experiences among those with significantly impaired vision or even legal blindness.”

Eben Alexander, MD, is a neurosurgeon who had his own near-death experience during a 7-day coma resulting from E. coli meningitis detailed in the book “Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife.” During his coma, Alexander’s neocortex was nonfunctional which allowed him to systematically disprove and eliminate six medical-model explanations for his NDE experiences. Alexander subsequently changed his perspective on consciousness from being dependent on the brain to consciousness being independent of the brain. The video accompanying this article contains an interview with Eben Alexander regarding his NDE.

In closing, Alexander composed a beautiful passage on a possible spiritual function of the relationship between consciousness and the brain. He writes, “To understand how the brain might actually block our access to knowledge of the higher worlds, we need to accept – at least hypothetically and for the moment – that the brain itself doesn’t produce consciousness. That it is, instead, a kind of reducing valve or filter, shifting the larger, nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds down into a more limited capacity for the duration of our mortal lives. There is, from the earthly perspective, a very definite advantage to this. Just as our brains work hard every moment of our waking lives to filter out the barrage of sensory information coming at us from our physical surroundings, selecting the material we actually need in order to survive, so it is that forgetting out trans-earthly identities also allows us to be ‘here and now’ far more effectively. Just as most of ordinary life holds too much information for us to take in at once and still get anything done, being excessively conscious of the worlds beyond the here and now would slow down our progress even more. If we knew too much of the spiritual realm now, then navigating our lives on earth would be an even greater challenge than it already is…. From a more purpose-focused perspective (and I now believe the universe is nothing if not purposeful), making the right decisions through our free will in the face of the evil and injustice on earth would mean far less if we remembered, while here, the full beauty and brilliance of what awaits us.” -taken from the Examiner

David Icke always used to use the analogy that our five sense perceptions are on a particular frequency range just like a television picking up electrical signals and displaying them, (through a multitude of electrons), as dynamic pictures.

A good analogy might be: that consciousness is like a television as it receives consciousness - if the brain is in someway defected, consciousness would not be received correctly and possible bizzarre interpretations and behaviour may occur. Just as a television would act strangely if there was to be anything wrong with the actual TV equipment.

Think of the brain as a decoder. It allows consciousness to view the world and interact with it. People who have brain diseases, like Alzheimer, have a defective "antenna" or "recorder" and as the brain improperly "decodes" it gives distorted messages if you will.

There is the possibility that the brain is BOTH a generator of consciousness and a receiver too.

I've noticed that in the case of Dr. Eben Alexander there are only two defenses that skeptics put up against him:

a) he had the visions prior to slipping into coma, not during

b) he lied

In the face of Alexander's (disputed) evidence of consciousness existing outside of the brain, skeptics are only able to resort to 2 weak counterarguments.

Be it Indian philosophy, Jewish or Christian esoterism or Steiner's anthroposophy, one key idea about the nature of the human being is the following set out below:

We are according to the above traditions (and no doubt others too) spiritual beings. As spiritual beings we live in a spiritual environment, an environment of spiritual forces that pull our souls (individual experiences) in a range of different directions.

One useful spectrum is to divide the influences into those which limit the field of experience to the earthly/physical realm (materialism)and the other which tries to wrench us from the physical realm into the spiritual universe (automatism).

Science/Materialism's upside is that it supports the development of individual consciousness... a notable downside is that only physical reality is treated as real, spirit must be denied from this perspective, which leads to a cutting off from the source of life.

Spirit/Automatism's upside is that the human being connects to its source and is able to confront inherently difficult questions like the meaning of life... a notable downside (also here there are many) is this comes at the cost of individual consciousness and the spiritual freedom that goes hand in hand with this consciousness.

In Steiner's anthroposophy these 2 tendencies have the names Ahriman (science/materialism) and Lucifer (spirit/automatism). The human being is subject to these forces which want to experience themselves in the human being and they will fight hard to do so. According to different traditions the enlightened human being is able to balance both of these forces perfectly so that it gains individual consciousness of its own spiritual being. This means integrating the truths of the physical world with spiritual truths.

Individuals will have preponderance to being Ahrimanic or Luciferic in their basic nature. Then, of course there are the fanatics that represent the 2 extremes of the spectrum that cannot countenance the existence of the opposite perspective. These extremists are of course prepared to lie, fabricate and twist things to their own perspective. And this is all so that they can continue to hold their cherished beliefs rather than meet the evidence in a responsible manner.

In the NDE debate the skeptics who deny the evidence have more of the Ahrimanic tendency. And to mention another favorite theme of ours, Christianity, there we find that individuals are often prepared to sacrifice critical thinking for the spiritual comforts offered by the dogma. The modus operandi must be to not ask questions that go too deep for fear of losing faith. In the technical language of anthroposophy this would be described as Luciferic.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18972270 - 10/13/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel like you're still not getting me. I'm not saying consciousness doesn't exist outside of the brain. I'm saying that who you are here, you, will end. Like I earlier said, if there is an afterlife, and your soul/consciousness experiences it, that won't be you. You'll have no memory of your time here. That soul or whatever will be a completely different entity from you, experiencing a completely different world. I'm saying that when YOU die, YOU cease to exist, because you are who you are because of your memories which exist, and die here. I'm not trying to answer any questions about spirituality, personally I think spirituality is existentialism with a twist of paranormal. I also think there is no meaning to life, or the universe. It just is. It just happened to happen, and that's all.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18972290 - 10/13/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rool Kat said:
Stellarshnap and ConfettiHead,

I actually agree with most of your analyses (and the one about the energy being converted to more life through the decay process is especially insightful,) with the following reservation:

From current physics, we know that there are more than the three dimensions (four, counting time) that we can detect. 

As I see it, when we talk about what happens in death and afterwards, we are talking about what is reasonable to assume in terms of our knowledge of this three or four dimensional world of our daily lives.

But we know that there are more than those, so I see our attempts to describe this as being as futile as a hypothetical person in a two-dimensional world (a Photo, for example) trying to determine the size of a three dimensional ball.

The ball, intersected by the plane of the two dimensional world, would be seen by us in the three dimensional "real world" as a dome, but in the two dimensional world, that dome would only be seen as a straight line.  The observer's vision could not leave the plane and the curvature we see would not show unless the observer could rise above the plane.

Observing the fate of the energy of life at the moment of death is akin to the two-dimensional observer trying to determine anything about his observations of the three dimensional ball.

It will always be impossible, and for reasons that the universe that we live in imposes limitations that are both unknowable to us, and impossible to overcome.

In my case, I have no expectations but I do recognize possibilities.  My ultimate goal, if indeed it can be so phrased, is to get off the wheel (if such exists) and not have another turn.

That may well happen, but it may equally be for reasons currently unknowable, that range from the simple fact that there is no "universal energy field," or "Void," or any other term of art for what lies after death.  There may simply be nothing.

That's cool also.  However, the prudent man, even one with no expectations, will prepare for what he believes is a reasonably possible outcome.  I am reasonably confident that there are more than four dimensions and I believe that this may be involved at death.

But that's just me and my milage.  Your's may definitely vary, and that's cool too.





I pretty much share your position here.  In the mean time I'm trying to have as good a time as I can manage here in dimension three.  :thatsjustswell:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18972327 - 10/13/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You and me both, brother!

And thanks for the comment.  I was beginning to believe that my posts were only showing on my own screen, for some strange reason...

I'm glad it's just because I'm being ignored, and not because I'm dead, and just haven't gotten the memo yet.

:borfase:


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18972404 - 10/13/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
I feel like you're still not getting me. I'm not saying consciousness doesn't exist outside of the brain. I'm saying that who you are here, you, will end. Like I earlier said, if there is an afterlife, and your soul/consciousness experiences it, that won't be you. You'll have no memory of your time here. That soul or whatever will be a completely different entity from you, experiencing a completely different world. I'm saying that when YOU die, YOU cease to exist, because you are who you are because of your memories which exist, and die here. I'm not trying to answer any questions about spirituality, personally I think spirituality is existentialism with a twist of paranormal. I also think there is no meaning to life, or the universe. It just is. It just happened to happen, and that's all.




I totally agree with you here. And no, once again, I don't misunderstand you. I've clearly understood everything that you've presented. And when did I ever postulate that YOU would remain after you die? In fact, I said the exact OPPOSITE of that, if you reference back to my earlier post where I clearly stated:

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
YOU, as a Chinese male let's say, will not continue on as that personality upon death. Whether awareness continues on or not, no one knows, but your name, your ego, your SELF as you know it on this earth will most assuredly cease to be. However, the body you once carried will become food for worms and life will essentially go on.

Now, whether your awareness continues on (sans your earthly personality) is a subject of debate. Nobody knows for sure if a state of awareness continues on or not. In either case, you will not be what you used to be, that is certain.




I, like you, agree that the person you are (the ego you carry now) will cease to be once death comes. However, the focus should not be on whether your personality carries on or not; we've already solved that question in our minds before we began discussing. The focus should be on whether awareness/consciousness carries on or not because that is something that is, at least, debatable.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18972619 - 10/13/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'll come in person when it's time.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18973380 - 10/13/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ah then I've misunderstood you :lol: sorry.

As for answering that question really the only ideas I can propose are the ones I got while under the influence of acid. Something that stood out to me was consciousness as a network. The consciousness of all life is actually one consciousness, experienced by each individual life form in a subjective fashion. How ever in death the consciousness experiencing that subjective reality returns to the "tapestry of souls". Of course I take these ideas with a grain of salt.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18973434 - 10/13/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You might like this. It's basically sting theory for dummies, or something along those lines.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/13/13 11:29 PM)


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18978845 - 10/14/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
So I've been thinking about death a lot, and have come to the conclusion that death is equivalent to a deep, dreamless sleep. Your perception of yourself, this world, time, everything really, is null and void; just like a dreamless sleep. Except in the case of death you just never wake up. How have I come to the conclusion that when you die you return to nothingness? Easy. What makes us who we are? Our memories of course. Our experiences and the growth we go through as people is only possible because of our brains unique memory storage capabilities. If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self.




Dreaming occurs during all five stages of sleep. This is the brain organizing memories and preparing for different situations that it think may occur based on memory. This is why some dreams don't make sense, or have no relation to actual events. The brain can not form full human faces on its own, every face you see in a dream is one you've seen before, whether it was for a moment in a shopping mall or one of a family member you see every day.


Quote:

Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally. It's because of this concept of past self and future self that we are able to be so... conscious. Now, since our memories are stored, processed, and relived all by the brain, it's logically conclusive that when the brain dies, in other words you die, so do your memories. All of that life experience, all of that raw experiential data you built up over the years, poof. Dust in the wind. You as a person, being that person because of your memories, cease to exist.




I should really read all the way through this thread, because I'm sure other people have made the same points. I appreciate my own opinion too much for that though :lol:
Anyways, as ConfettiHead was trying to convey, and as OrgoneConclusion argued against, everything consists of energy. Everything. Even data. This energy (data) may change forms, and is bound to, as it has in the past, but nonetheless it still exists.
As we know from the research of  Fernando Nottebohm, learning/gaining information correlates with neuron growth. This suggests that memories are stored and transferred via neurons in the brain, the most significant part of the brain for memory being the hippocampus. This is verified with alzheimers disease when excess proteins in the hippocampus and neurocortex destroy neurons in the area, and memories fade away with them.
Neuron death can occur in any number of ways, in slow ways such as with alzheimers, or very quickly such as with a stroke or other acute brain trauma. The latter examples would occur through improper/inefficient provision of oxygen and nutrients as would occur during death. When the heart stops pumping, measurable brain function ceases in 20-40 seconds, but cell death continues at a rapid rate for 8 hours.
As this relates to what ConfettiHead said about energy remaining from what would essentially be the brains neurons. This is true, however the molecules which the neurons consist of could split into completely different ones, split and then combine with other molecules/atoms, or simply combine with other molecules and atoms. It would cease to be stored data then.
How this relates to what you said is as following. You theorize that without memory, consciousness cannot formulate a past or future. I agree. Current knowledge would suggest that our memories our destroyed with death. I feel though, that death only causes sentience to cease its existence. Sentience (in my opinion) is the ability to distinguish ourselves as an identity, the identity being shaped by memories, memories which are shaped by our perception of the physical world, which ceases to occur when nerves are lacking, or not transferring information.
From modern research, and educated guessing, I have come to the conclusion that death isn't "the end". Without memories or the ability to create them, consciousness is essentially nothing. I think, and would like to think that one's afterlife consists of the last memories they are able to recall along with the last feeling they are able to perceive. When one reaches this point, that which created them as a person does not collectively continue through time. That doesn't mean it isn't there though. If we cannot perceive anymore, if we cannot remember anymore, are we not just infinite as our last moment?


Quote:

Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it. Sure life is bitterly beautiful, but at the end of yours, you're gonna be tired, if you lived that is. This place is a bizarre mystery, and I'm sure it's gonna leave us all confused enough for a lifetime. So why the anxiety from returning to nothingness, you did come from there after all. Instead of seeing death as some awfully dark and inescapable fact of life, or using religion to escape the fact altogether... Why not see death as a return to an old friend. Finally you get some peace of mind. Doesn't seem so bad to me.




I agree with your thoughts on death anxiety. If I am to use my own belief, there should be no reason to fear death if your last perception is a good one and your memories are good too. This is why I want to die in the company of the person(s) I love most. You can only control what your memory will be through living, and you can only control final feelings through how your death occurs.
I don't believe in full any religion, but there are elements of some which fit my lifestyle, and there are elements of some which seem to be validated through science. Particularly the idea of heaven vs hell. It's a sad thought that if you die in a shitty way, you might be doomed eternally to the pain of your finality, but it's comforting that living life in a way which fulfills a person up to the very end might actually make a difference for oneself beyond life, however tiny that may be.


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dead man walking


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18980478 - 10/15/13 08:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Outstanding post. :thumbup: In my opinion, you're right on track.

My studies and experiences with the religious thought of different cultures, as well as my research on NDEs, have led me to the same conclusions that you have come to. Basically, what is experienced after death is directly related to your final experience on earth. Those in a negative state attain a negative state, those in a positive state attain a positive state. This is basically heaven and hell; they are states of consciousness, not physical realms. This is why it is important to cultivate peace, love, compassion, harmony with other beings, etc. in life because if you die in that state, then you will most likely remain in that state after death. Showing hatred towards others, remaining in a general state of negativity, always being cynical, leading a life of anger and aggression, etc. will only hurt YOU in the end. Again, great post, you presented you're information clearly too. Good job.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18982324 - 10/15/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:likeaboss:


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dead man walking


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18984453 - 10/16/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Not a bad speculation. :thumbup:


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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OfflinebeforeIgetold
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Registered: 10/10/13
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Cactilove]
    #19017814 - 10/23/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I like to think of the "me" and what drives "me" as two separate things.

While the "me" might cease to exist, the driver returns to a state of energy to merge with what ever is possible.

But that makes me wonder what is behind the driver, the energy that gives the human body a function. What decides where and when that energy gets to inhabit a being or what ever it can do? Does it float around in senselessness and is thrusted into merging with another entity?

If such is the way of energy, then all living things truly are made of the same, the only thing that sets the limits of a given entity is the genetic code that interprets how energy gets to work in that setting. In other words, the genetic code of lion reads as a manual that energy will accept as being able to do what a lion cannot or can do in order to work.

A sort of purposeless recurring set of events that lead nowhere but through the randomness of chaos again and again forever.


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