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OfflineCrimpJiggler
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Blessed are the less fortunate
    #18972083 - 10/13/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

When I was on ayahuasca, I had a vision that I was at the boundaries of this matrix/prison thing and that I was starting to cross over to the other side, whatever that is. The transition state was really painful and uncomfortable though, it kept making me think about turning around, and going back into my comfortable prison, but at the same time I remembered that all is not well in my prison, and its that which gave me the motivation to tough out the pain and discomfort and keep exploring what the ayahuasca was showing me.

Thats how it dawned on me. The reason these jungle shamans can get so adept at navigating the spirit world through ayahuasca is because they have such a harsh existence to begin with, that there is far less for them to cling onto. These jungle badasses live in another world to westerners. Pain and suffering is our best friend, if things were all rosy and happy, we wouldn't have the balls to dive into states that come with extreme suffering, let alone the motivation to willingly remain in that state, rather than turn back once things get rough. Its what provokes us to relinquish attachment to this illusory physical world.

I've come to this realisation many times before, but that was the first time I saw it through the lens of ayahuasca, it gave me some additional insight into it. It felt to me like a harsh life acts as a launch pad which can blast us through the walls of this 3D prison/matrix thing. This is just the experience I had, I don't necessarily believe it, it could be that this trapped in the matrix idea, is just some subconscious belief I inadvertently adopted by reading things like David Ickes books, and now it comes out in my psychedelic experiences. Whether the details are real or not, the lesson is valid and applies to all aspects of existence. The lesson that a harsh existence instils in us the courage and determination to move outside our known existence, into unknown worlds and to tough out whatever hardships we might encounter along the way.


--------------------
…...,~__________________, ,.
….../ `—___________—-___]Give a man a gun
…../_==o;;;;;;;;_______.:/he can rob a bank.
…..), —.(_(__) /
….// (..)),````
…//__/Give a man a bank,he can rob the world!
.//__/


Edited by CrimpJiggler (10/13/13 12:53 PM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: CrimpJiggler]
    #18972397 - 10/13/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I was a student of the Cree Indian Medicine Man Bearheart back when I was fifteen. At one sweat lodge he said that the decimation of indigenous peoples has the result for the shaman that they are thrust into heightened awareness and need to learn.

That is not a blessing though.  Just as getting morphine for a pain doesn't mean the pain is a blessing. 

(morphine isn't all that).

I doubt anyone would believe that the way they have learned to deal with pain means the pain is a blessing. Most will always wish the pain never occurred.

Some few will enjoy the awakening. Most for instance will never view the occurrence at Hiroshima as anything less that surgical for a disease they wish never existed.


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...or something







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OfflineCrimpJiggler
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18972482 - 10/13/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Heres an analogy. Your in a prison, and the exit is guarded by pit bulls. If all is well inside the prison, you're not really gonna have strong motivation to go through the gate and past the pitbulls. If you are curious and decide to check out whats outside, as soon as a pitbull charges you, you're likely to turn around and go back into the prison.

If on the other hand, conditions inside the prison are unbearable, you'll just go for it. You'll decide the pain of being mauled by the dogs is worth the chance of getting free from the prison.


--------------------
…...,~__________________, ,.
….../ `—___________—-___]Give a man a gun
…../_==o;;;;;;;;_______.:/he can rob a bank.
…..), —.(_(__) /
….// (..)),````
…//__/Give a man a bank,he can rob the world!
.//__/


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: CrimpJiggler]
    #18972624 - 10/13/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: CrimpJiggler]
    #18973036 - 10/13/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CrimpJiggler said:
Heres an analogy. Your in a prison, and the exit is guarded by pit bulls. If all is well inside the prison, you're not really gonna have strong motivation to go through the gate and past the pitbulls. If you are curious and decide to check out whats outside, as soon as a pitbull charges you, you're likely to turn around and go back into the prison.

If on the other hand, conditions inside the prison are unbearable, you'll just go for it. You'll decide the pain of being mauled by the dogs is worth the chance of getting free from the prison.





I got your point, but I don't think anyone is going to say, Jesus I am damn glad I went to prison so I could learn not to fear pitbulls.


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...or something







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Offlinethatmonk
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69] * 1
    #18975801 - 10/14/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

CrimpJiggler you have it right. People do not seek awakening/enlightenment when their life is comfortable enough. The Buddha taught the fact of suffering... there is always a fly in the soup so to speak. He taught that there is a cause to the suffering: belief in a separate self and solid external real reality. He taught there is a path to be free of suffering and the result, freedom from suffering or enlightenment or awakening by seeing clearly the nature of your own mind and the world it exists in. This is not conceptual knowledge.

I live in all kinds of chronic pain and can report suffering, which is the product of resisting ones painful experience, is indeed the rocket fuel to blast one out of the prison of delusion. If there was no suffering, why bother to grow spiritually, which takes a lot of effort and commitment? If you suffer enough, eventually you start asking questions and looking for freedom beyond what the world has up for offer.

Indeed we are in a prison. Most people don't know this and are content with the programming on the prisons TV. Occasionally a few people discover there is a whole world beyond that "TV programming" and start seeking it. This often appears as crazy to those still captivated by the TV. They wonder what the hell is wrong with you and why is this not fine? It often scares the hell out of them that there could be much more beyond the prison. They try to convince us not to leave.

Do not listen to them. The question is now how to you act on your insight of the nature of our prison?


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...because life is fleeting.


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: thatmonk]
    #18976589 - 10/14/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed we are in a prison. Most people don't know this and are content with the programming on the prisons TV. Occasionally a few people discover there is a whole world beyond that "TV programming" and start seeking it. This often appears as crazy to those still captivated by the TV. They wonder what the hell is wrong with you and why is this not fine? It often scares the hell out of them that there could be much more beyond the prison. They try to convince us not to leave.

Do not listen to them. The question is now how to you act on your insight of the nature of our prison?


Well said.

Sometimes I forget this and it causes resistance within myself in the form of doubt even guilt (where the ones trying to convince are concerned) so occasionally I would throw myself back in with the prisoners thinking i was missing out on something. All it took was 10 minutes to realize why i left in the first place.

IMO Leaving the prison is akin to leaving behind everything you know, the good bad and the ugly. Now I chose to act by assuming full responsibility for my behavior, actions and thoughts.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: thatmonk]
    #18976696 - 10/14/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with the OP.  Eckhart Tolle addresses this in some of his books and basically says that unhappy people, or people in difficult circumstances are far more likely to make rapid spiritual progress than a person with an easy life, and from personal experience I'd say it's definitely true.

Quote:

thatmonk said:

I live in all kinds of chronic pain and can report suffering, which is the product of resisting ones painful experience, is indeed the rocket fuel to blast one out of the prison of delusion. If there was no suffering, why bother to grow spiritually, which takes a lot of effort and commitment? If you suffer enough, eventually you start asking questions and looking for freedom beyond what the world has up for offer.






I can relate to that a lot.  Although physical pain is not an issue for me I also have a lot of health issues right now which cause me a great deal of stress and anxiety.  I've have to eat an incredibly extreme diet, and have had to give up a lot of things I have taken for granted in the past.  It's made life very difficult on occasions and a few times I have almost reached breaking point.  But since I learned the art of living in the moment and of noticing what I do have instead of what I don't, well it's changed my life. 

If I look back on my life before I got ill I would even go so far as to say that I am happier now than I ever was back then.  If there was no illness I would still be living my semi-unhappy, yearning, unsatisfied life.  But now I at least know what true peace is, even if it comes and goes :smile:


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: PocketLady]
    #18976978 - 10/14/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think this is the fact - if you don't have material success then you're more likely to have spiritual success - since you don't have material success.

The falsehood here is that spiritual is better than material. Both have a beginning and ending. People want to believe spirit goes on forever but that's simply not my experience having watched my dad die and the light and person disappear - forever.

I was talking to a lama once about death and he felt free to mock fear of death, never having experienced it personally and up close.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18977113 - 10/14/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:

The falsehood here is that spiritual is better than material. Both have a beginning and ending. People want to believe spirit goes on forever but that's simply not my experience having watched my dad die and the light and person disappear - forever.





I agree that spiritual doesn't necessarily mean forever.  Once upon a time I would have completely disagreed, but I'm a bit more rational these days and see there is a distinct lack of evidence to support that view. 

But that doesn't mean that spiritual success is no better than material success, although perhaps the two are just different.  Material success does not equip you to cope when things aren't going your way, to remain calm and in a state of acceptance even in the most difficult situations.  You are at the mercy of circumstance. 

I suppose it depends on what you prefer, the options being;
1)  The swings of material success - High highs with low lows.
2)  The peacefulness of "spiritual" success which keeps you on an even keel with no extremes.

Maybe there is a way to combine the two, but the latter has to be learned before that becomes a possibility.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: PocketLady]
    #18977728 - 10/14/13 06:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are imagining an ideal which is less than truthful. Spiritual doesn't change really anything. Wisdom changes how one reacts but spiritual and wise aren't always one. Many 'spiritual' types seek experiences which engage them in an emotional or mental capacity seeking in fact the roller coaster. I remember the initial outbreak of 'tantric' fascination about 20 years ago and people trying to occlude the senses through excess to free the spirit. 

The definition of spiritual is really vague and implying that a spiritual person also develops the wisdom of emotional eveness is wishful. 

Fact is, I live next to a Whole Foods.  You want to see dismay in various frequencies visit one and peruse the 'spiritual' types.


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...or something







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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18978248 - 10/14/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Quote:

CrimpJiggler said:
Heres an analogy. Your in a prison, and the exit is guarded by pit bulls. If all is well inside the prison, you're not really gonna have strong motivation to go through the gate and past the pitbulls. If you are curious and decide to check out whats outside, as soon as a pitbull charges you, you're likely to turn around and go back into the prison.

If on the other hand, conditions inside the prison are unbearable, you'll just go for it. You'll decide the pain of being mauled by the dogs is worth the chance of getting free from the prison.





I got your point, but I don't think anyone is going to say, Jesus I am damn glad I went to prison so I could learn not to fear pitbulls.




I for one am a little grateful that coming from such a broke anti materialistic upbringing that I got some realizations significantly younger and easier.

Siddharta supposedly gave it all up and only became the Buddha after a while as an ascetic.

:cool:


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18978258 - 10/14/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
The definition of spiritual is really vague and implying that a spiritual person also develops the wisdom of emotional eveness is wishful. 

Fact is, I live next to a Whole Foods.  You want to see dismay in various frequencies visit one and peruse the 'spiritual' types.




:lol:

Like a yoga studio...


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: Yogi1]
    #18980109 - 10/15/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

like any cult

I have had many people tell me how fucked up I am then make fun of indian philosophy and tell me it must be shit (and I never turned it around for them) but the real issue is - spiritual practices are not for the perfect but for those who understand their imperfections. Spiritual aspirants are more often broken or know of their brokenness and often seem fucked up.  It behooves one to understand where is the cart and where the mule.  The mule is the sense of incompleteness or yearning for something better (recognizing lack), the mule is not triumphantly marching into Bethlehem to reclaim the throne.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18980169 - 10/15/13 06:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm very spiritual indeed.  People have had the opposite opinion of me here. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: Icelander]
    #18980540 - 10/15/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know, after 83,000 posts you seem really highly evolved, I mean, you have your own following. Do you have your own Shroomery blog or something - --Icelander's Burg-- uh, or something.....


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...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18980546 - 10/15/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry but I'm not going to lend you money. :nono:  So cut the crap.  :bashful:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18980682 - 10/15/13 10:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I think this is the fact - if you don't have material success then you're more likely to have spiritual success - since you don't have material success.

The falsehood here is that spiritual is better than material. Both have a beginning and ending. People want to believe spirit goes on forever but that's simply not my experience having watched my dad die and the light and person disappear - forever.

I was talking to a lama once about death and he felt free to mock fear of death, never having experienced it personally and up close.





Really if anything there is no division between spiritual and material.

If someone whose fullest expression is to be a badass superhero flying cars laz0rs explosions *lights cigarette walks away no look back*, they're doing a disservice to the World by not smoking 81x7 blunts a day


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: crkhd]
    #18980725 - 10/15/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: crkhd]
    #18980821 - 10/15/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
I think this is the fact - if you don't have material success then you're more likely to have spiritual success - since you don't have material success.

The falsehood here is that spiritual is better than material. Both have a beginning and ending. People want to believe spirit goes on forever but that's simply not my experience having watched my dad die and the light and person disappear - forever.

I was talking to a lama once about death and he felt free to mock fear of death, never having experienced it personally and up close.





Really if anything there is no division between spiritual and material.

If someone whose fullest expression is to be a badass superhero flying cars laz0rs explosions *lights cigarette walks away no look back*, they're doing a disservice to the World by not smoking 81x7 blunts a day




:thumbup:  I was just wondering where you were this morning. True story.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: Icelander]
    #18980892 - 10/15/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"pain and suffering is our best friend"  Wow, thats so profound.  :rolleyes: I feel so blessed.





and life is a chance to grow a soul...Gimme a break.


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welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: sprinkles]
    #18980986 - 10/15/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Most who do some long term serious suffering change their minds about all that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: Icelander]
    #18981142 - 10/15/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I knew a woman who hung around the Buddhist scene always demanding help, thinking she was helping promote The Dharma by sucking it up.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18982171 - 10/15/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I knew a woman who hung around the Buddhist scene always demanding help, thinking she was helping promote The Dharma by sucking it up.




:curbyourenthusiasm:

Some people think shit is so external and reaps external rewards...reincarnartion isnt the rodeo that people think it is, nor is ultimate death after burning away karma...


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OfflineCrimpJiggler
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18984547 - 10/16/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

DOUBLE POST


--------------------
…...,~__________________, ,.
….../ `—___________—-___]Give a man a gun
…../_==o;;;;;;;;_______.:/he can rob a bank.
…..), —.(_(__) /
….// (..)),````
…//__/Give a man a bank,he can rob the world!
.//__/


Edited by CrimpJiggler (10/16/13 02:10 AM)


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OfflineCrimpJiggler
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Re: Blessed are the less fortunate [Re: eve69]
    #18984587 - 10/16/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I got your point, but I don't think anyone is going to say, Jesus I am damn glad I went to prison so I could learn not to fear pitbulls.




When the time comes and the person has to face the pitbulls, they'll be glad they went to prison, I can guarantee you that. Whether a person appreciates what their stay in prison did to them, depends entirely on their perception of reality. If they think life is supposed to be this rosy and happy thing free of suffering, and that anything else is a failure, they will probably feel bad about spending a significant portion of it in hell, and consequently having their ability to obtain material wealth significantly hindered (due to having a criminal record).

If on the other hand, they see this life thing as some kind of spiritual boot camp/training ground, I'm fairly sure they'll be glad they made it through prison.

Quote:

thatmonk said:
I live in all kinds of chronic pain and can report suffering, which is the product of resisting ones painful experience, is indeed the rocket fuel to blast one out of the prison of delusion. If there was no suffering, why bother to grow spiritually, which takes a lot of effort and commitment? If you suffer enough, eventually you start asking questions and looking for freedom beyond what the world has up for offer...



Have you done DMT (ayahuasca or smoked) before? I experienced the principle on salvia before, I was in another dimension and it started closing in on me, to the point that it was so confined and limited that I decided I no longer wanted to exist in that reality, and even though I didn't know it was possible to escape it (I couldn't remember having been in any other reality), I decided I was going to transcend it, and thats what I did. It seems that the main chain that binds us to the prison, is our own attachment to the prison. And suffering seems to be the ultimate tool for severing our attachment to the prison.

I never thought about it from the Buddhist perspective. The illusion of seperateness might be a 3D construct, and that when we transcend it, we transcend this 3D prison. On salvia I got stuck in the 2nd dimension, and transcended it by realising that me and my environment were the same thing. I merged with my environment, and then I found myself in 3D.

Quote:

eve69 said:
spiritual practices are not for the perfect but for those who understand their imperfections. Spiritual aspirants are more often broken or know of their brokenness and often seem fucked up.  It behooves one to understand where is the cart and where the mule.  The mule is the sense of incompleteness or yearning for something better (recognizing lack), the mule is not triumphantly marching into Bethlehem to reclaim the throne.




True, spiritual practices are not for the perfect. People who have not yet attained the courage and honesty to look at their human nature, aren't ready for spiritual practice. I used to think I was perfect when I was a teenager, then I started taking psychedelics and realised I was merely too scared to look at my flaws. Honesty is the first step.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Most who do some long term serious suffering change their minds about all that.



Yeah you really need to see it for yourself to understand. People don't willingly become ascetics for nothing.

Quote:

sprinkles said:
"pain and suffering is our best friend"  Wow, thats so profound.  :rolleyes: I feel so blessed.



I'm sorry you haven't seen it for yourself yet, but it is what it is  :shrug: In my experience, you can only see it in retrospect, so if you're in the thick of it now, then just tough it out, you'll see later down the line, what the shit times actually did for you. My last 2 ayahuasca ceremonies, I felt like I was a damned soul and all I could see was what a fucked up situation I had gotten myself into, it was only afterwards that I could see the kind of changes the experience caused. It reminds me of the quote from the bible "the lord works in mysterious ways". My friend wanted to quit smoking, and the ayahuasca told him "if you haven't quit smoking next time you see me, I'm going to show you hell" and he was so terrified, he quit smoking then and there.

This is why I'm weary of anyone who claims to be on a spiritual path, while also claiming that suffering is not necessary for spiritual evolution. In my experience, various changes can only be made through suffering. Getting free of a 20 year opioid addiction for instance. It doesn't come easy.

Quote:

sprinkles said:
and life is a chance to grow a soul...Gimme a break.



Why don't you quote the person who said that.


--------------------
…...,~__________________, ,.
….../ `—___________—-___]Give a man a gun
…../_==o;;;;;;;;_______.:/he can rob a bank.
…..), —.(_(__) /
….// (..)),````
…//__/Give a man a bank,he can rob the world!
.//__/


Edited by CrimpJiggler (10/16/13 02:57 AM)


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