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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968297 - 10/12/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

if death is like an infinite acid trip where the whole universe seems like my body, i'd be most pleased too :lol:


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968564 - 10/12/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The same conclusions are arrived at by many people it would seem. It's up to each of us to experience our departure in our own time.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #18968685 - 10/12/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Here is the real inside scoop:



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Offlinechutney
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968730 - 10/12/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
After all, energy does not cease to be but rather continues on whilst donning alternate forms along the way.





I hear this a lot, but I think the reality of this is far less grandiose and a more logical (though arguably disappointing) explanation is at hand... I think it may be more something like this:

The energy which you consist of is basically metabolic energy that powers cellular processes and functioning... After all, how does a corpse differ from a living person? One- the corpse- has simply ceased the cellular operation and metabolic processes which power the organs and tissue systems and provide energy to a living entity, thereby keeping it alive. So I think it would be something more along the lines of; when you die and your body is eventually returned to the earth, you are eaten by bugs and worms and your body is thus broken down by their digestive systems to provide them energy. So that energy which sustained you is now transferred to the insects which feast on your corpse? Or if your corpse is cremated, it provides fuel for the fire, and therefore the energy is transferred that way?

I could be way off the mark here, I don't know jack shit about physics and for the sake of clarity (and not making an ass of myself) probably shouldn't even be speculating... but fuck it, I'm high :drag:

Somebody please explain this shit to me


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18968793 - 10/12/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is the real inside scoop:






If death has a soundtrack, I'd prefer something a little more ambient to merge with



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: chutney]
    #18968806 - 10/12/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think you're on the right track, and from a scientific standpoint, I think you are correct.

I have not (nor has anyone else) been able to prove that consciousness is energy. Beyond that, one also has to ask themselves: is the brain a generator of consciousness or a receiver of consciousness, or...possibly, is it both?

Anyway, I think you are correct in your thinking. It's like when Robin William's is talking to his boys in Dead Poet's Society:

"They're not that different from you, are they? Same haircuts. Full of hormones, just like you. Invincible, just like you feel. The world is their oyster. They believe they're destined for great things, just like many of you, their eyes are full of hope, just like you. Did they wait until it was too late to make from their lives even one iota of what they were capable? Because, you see gentlemen, these boys are now fertilizing daffodils. But if you listen real close, you can hear them whisper their legacy to you. Go on, lean in. Listen, you hear it? - - Carpe - - hear it? - - Carpe, carpe diem, seize the day boys, make your lives extraordinary."

"Williams: "Seize the day. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may." Why does the writer use these lines?

Charlie: Because he's in a hurry.

Williams: No. Ding! Thank you for playing anyway. Because we are food for worms, lads. Because, believe it or not, each and every one of us in this room is one day going to stop breathing, turn cold and die."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18968964 - 10/12/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is the real inside scoop:






Gee wiz Mr. Peabody, that was great. I always thought that was a way cool song! Music was truly musical back then


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968976 - 10/12/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
So I've been thinking about death a lot, and have come to the conclusion that death is equivalent to a deep, dreamless sleep. Your perception of yourself, this world, time, everything really, is null and void; just like a dreamless sleep. Except in the case of death you just never wake up.

How have I come to the conclusion that when you die you return to nothingness?

Easy. What makes us who we are? Our memories of course. Our experiences and the growth we go through as people is only possible because of our brains unique memory storage capabilities. If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self. Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally. It's because of this concept of past self and future self that we are able to be so... conscious. Now, since our memories are stored, processed, and relived all by the brain, it's logically conclusive that when the brain dies, in other words you die, so do your memories. All of that life experience, all of that raw experiential data you built up over the years, poof. Dust in the wind. You as a person, being that person because of your memories, cease to exist.

Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it. Sure life is bitterly beautiful, but at the end of yours, you're gonna be tired, if you lived that is. This place is a bizarre mystery, and I'm sure it's gonna leave us all confused enough for a lifetime. So why the anxiety from returning to nothingness, you did come from there after all. Instead of seeing death as some awfully dark and inescapable fact of life, or using religion to escape the fact altogether... Why not see death as a return to an old friend. Finally you get some peace of mind. Doesn't seem so bad to me.




I think you're on to something here. 

Some things about this subject are quite clear and supported by contemporary physics, however these things do not tell the entire story.

We know that energy and matter are freely (in a literary sense) convertible between one and the other.

We also know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

Neither of these statements are controversial, that is, they are universally accepted as accurate by the scientific community.  However, after this, things get a bit murky.

I have a recurrent memory that seems to pop up un-bidden every 10 years or so.  This, by the way, is the earliest memory I have.  I was an infant, probably about a year old, standing in my crib and holding onto the crib-rail to keep upright.  I'm relatively sure that this was before I developed the ability to speak and communicate that way, but if I'm wrong, that doesn't matter anyway.

I was just idly wondering where the life-force that was animating me then, had been before I existed.  I also wondered, equally idly, what would happen to it when I no longer existed.  This wondering was in no way 'deep thought,' it was simply idle curiosity.

But the significance of it, at least to me, was the total lack of any belief about that, or any other thing, coupled with the total assurance that a) something animated me; b) Whatever it was, it existed before me; and c) it would continue to exist and that at some point, I would not.

With me, that point gets closer all the time.  I'm currently 74 and two years into a 5-year journey that has no survivors at the end of that period.  You may safely conclude that I have an interest in this subject.  But be careful about what you read into what I'm saying here beyond that.

OC, your statements about "Information being totally unrelated to energy" puzzle me.
I would be interested in knowing your reasoning.  But I digress...

I know that the Tibetans have "studied" (in this case, a highly complex process) the subject of death quite extensively and have more than 1200 years (more than 2000, I'm sure, but unable to support with documentation for that figure) and have a very well established and formal process for getting through what happens next (fi anything.)

This practice, they believe, guides the "essence. soul, or whatever is left (if anything)" when the body dies.  Their goal is first, to exit stage) left from the wheel of life, death and rebirth; and failing that, exit the (49 day death process into as beneficial a reincarnation as possible.

They describe a series of events that follow the death of the body.  Amazingly, this parallels two other descriptions of events:  Trip reports from Level 5 trips, and NDEs as so well documented and reported by Elizabeth Kübler-Ross in "Death and Dying."

They believe that the first thing that happens is the destruction of the Ego, and from that, the dead suffers from great initial confusion, so much that they cannot go to and merge with "the Light," (aka, Void, Ground of existence, the transcendent;) but that with training (meditation for many year under an experienced Guru) the mind can be trained to survive this initial confusion.

It was this fact that led me here in the first place.

Now those of you who refuse to consider the possibility of anything that can't be seen, felt, touched, tasted or otherwise detected by the 5 (recognized) senses will reject any valid connection among these things, but I accept the possibility that there is merit to them.

That is, I do believe that the life force does not die because it is energy.  I believe that it goes to and reanimate some other life-form. 

However, like the OP, I do not believe that the PERSONALITY, the storehouse of memories, likes and dislikes, and the like, survives.

As to physics, I think it dangerous to state that something involving (for lack of a better term,) the spirit, is impossible.  The field of physics is expanding like a veritable explosion of new information. 

Quantum physics and string theory were completely unknown when I graduated with a BSE in 1961, and for a physicist to express the the idea that there mighty be 11 dimensions rather than 3 (or 4, counting time) would lead to universal opprobrium from his/her peers.

"The Tao of Physics" was written by Frijof Kapra when he was director of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Institute, and "the Dancing Wu-Li Masters by Gary Zukoff, winner of The American Book Award for Science.

Both of these books opened my eyes to considering that the visible physical world is just the tip of the iceberg of reality.

Well, this is long enough.  I'll touch on death anxiety a bit later.  But it can be overcome and banished.  I have none.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969001 - 10/12/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.



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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969058 - 10/12/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.






Digital "remastering" is the scourge of many a fine piece of music.  Oh sure we had to make it fit a CD.  Then you got some joker says "oh sure Jimi really wanted to change this or that" cause we know better now. 

Well fuck that, leave the music the way it was.  Vinyl still sounds better, than ever, even the supposedly "worn out" ones.  If a CD gets scratched a little too much, or gets some crud on it, it may cease to play completely or skip in a way that is particularly annoying.

Yeah thanks modern technology, you found a way to make things smaller and sound shittier than a 40 year old album.  Great.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969062 - 10/12/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Music was truly musical back then




You're right, it should have made Andrew Lloyd Weber's cut...


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18969170 - 10/12/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Most pre-80s radio cuts were mastered to sound good for very lo-fi speakers on AM radio as that was the largest market for top 40 hits. Any audiophile should be aware of this.

Hell, sub-woofers were not even mainstream until the mid-70s. Do you really believe that oldies were optimized for today's sound systems? That recording engineers back then knew what was coming technology-wise 30-40 years hence? :rolleyes:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969221 - 10/12/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969228 - 10/12/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.







That's not always true. They still remaster for walkman type devices with cheap ear phones and so bass balance is lousy often on the remixed cd on a good home stereo. I often prefer the originals as do other audiophiles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969268 - 10/12/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

remastered only to be served to the masses of youtube once again, encoded at a lowly 128kbps bitrate....


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18969280 - 10/12/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Basically, one size does not fit all. When synesthesia tech comes along, the savvy recording engineer will have to add prismatic color to the music.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969292 - 10/12/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Most pre-80s radio cuts were mastered to sound good for very lo-fi speakers on AM radio as that was the largest market for top 40 hits. Any audiophile should be aware of this.

Hell, sub-woofers were not even mainstream until the mid-70s. Do you really believe that oldies were optimized for today's sound systems? That recording engineers back then knew what was coming technology-wise 30-40 years hence? :rolleyes:




You had a tin ear then, and now.  Just admit it and we can move on.  I remember when your JBL speakers were your pride and joy.  Talk about a colored speaker!  Yet you were thrilled with the out of balance frequency curve.  Tin ear.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969565 - 10/12/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The same conclusions are arrived at by many people it would seem.






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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18969616 - 10/12/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Just 'cuz you feel it
Doesn't mean it's there


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18970112 - 10/12/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say information was totally unrelated to energy, rather that it is not convertible to energy. The information in the brain can't be changed into energy which still contains that information. It's illogical.

As for the whole inability to merge with the light due to confusion, I've experienced that on acid. I remember being sure of my own death, in a very materialistic sense. I was scared, terrified really, then I sort of went through this thought process I've expressed except it was a fraction of a second, and I realized I wasn't afraid of death. I was completely comfortable with ceasing to exist. Then I merged with the universe and became one with the "tapestry of souls" as I put it. The most poignant aspect of that trip in retrospect was that when I merged, I had no memory of myself here. I wasn't me anymore. I was the universe. I no longer existed as the person I was on this planet. It was quite interesting, but I try hard not to take the things I experience on these drugs too seriously, as after all, I have injested a mind altering substance.

The energy from our bodies does move onto other life lol. In the form of food for worms as ConfettiHead referenced. (Gonna have to check that movie out, sounds really good).

I understand that reality is so far beyond our comprehension that it's worthless to even think about these things. That's really my whole point. There's no point in trying to understand death as anything beyond nothingness, as even if there is an afterlife, whatever experiences it after you die is not you. It is a form of transformed energy. Thus, you, as in you here, are gone. Poof. I feel that life would be more well spent focusing on the here and now and how to improve it, rather than on how to prepare for what may or may not come after death. It's irrational to do so IMO.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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