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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18963398 - 10/11/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.

Ah!  Such a wise man you are, such a wise move.  You seem to have put me to shame in this regard. :blush:

:thumbup::heart:




And I am humbled by your response. :bow2:  All too often I have 'put all my eggs in one basket,' and suffered the consequences. To venture another financial metaphor, one needs to diversify the possibilities of our inevitable demise. This choice has the additional perk of offsetting death-anxiety a bit.  :shrug: Although, the developmental literature says that death-anxiety drops off among octogenarians. Although, my late 82 year old mother-in-law was still afraid of death, but on the day she died, toxicity from kidney failure rendered her delusional. She called us in the middle of the night to say that she was Barack Obama, and she wanted her limo to take her to D.C. immediately. I don't think Death phased her at all when he came. Sometimes nature can demonstrate kindness.

:death:






I don't know if it's conscious kindness but there are natural mechanisms that help with the pain of death.  Going into shock comes to mind.

It has now become evident (in a grokked way)  to me that how we feel about life and death is mostly subjective.  You have chosen wisely and I mean that.  I may have not had the ability to make such a choice for myself due to the fact that I did not know I was choosing until recently (again grokked) . However my choice in how I view things, while being hard, is not without it's rewards and I'm glad for them.  The task now will be to see if at this advanced age I can move ever so slightly in your direction. I have plumbed the depths of my current belief system it seems and a change would seriously do me some good.  Believe it or not my use of Kratom seems to be opening up a door for such a move.:mushroom2:  Time will tell.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJaegar
Formless One
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Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 2,217
Last seen: 6 months, 27 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18963561 - 10/11/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Your humility won't save you from judgement.


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963602 - 10/11/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sorry that life has been so cruel to you. Also congratulations on being one awesome human being and working your way out of that. Respect.

What Icelander said. As long as your beliefs are your's and your's alone, and they help you be the best person you could be, they're the right beliefs. Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18963726 - 10/11/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.




I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I've developed what I like to call my own personal a la carte religion. I've taken (what I believe to be) the best teachings from the East and the West, and I've combined them to form my own super religion. I have thrown out all the unnecessary bullshit (like virgin births, salvation through atonement and the notion of a literal place of punishment called hell) and I have taken the most impactful teachings of Hinduism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism and Essene Christianity to make for one exciting spiritual mix. Some like to call me a universalist, but I prefer to not label myself. Anyway, even if none of it is true it still brings me a lot of peace, motivation, and energy (among other positive things) and I can't wait to wake up the next day and learn even more! :smile:


--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963779 - 10/11/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.




I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I've developed what I like to call my own personal a la carte religion. I've taken (what I believe to be) the best teachings from the East and the West, and I've combined them to form my own super religion. I have thrown out all the unnecessary bullshit (like virgin births, salvation through atonement and the notion of a literal place of punishment called hell) and I have taken the most impactful teachings of Hinduism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism and Essene Christianity to make for one exciting spiritual mix. Some like to call me a universalist, but I prefer to not label myself. Anyway, even if none of it is true it still brings me a lot of peace, motivation, and energy (among other positive things) and I can't wait to wake up the next day and learn even more! :smile:




See that I can respect, you're thinking for yourself. While such an idea is naught among the general religious population. As long as it does good for you, in turn the people around you, keep it up. :thumbup::heart:


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18964240 - 10/11/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.

BZZZT! How many times is this bullshit going to keep turning up here before people will take the smallest fucking step at critical thinking and looking into outrageous claims rather than gullibly swallowing any nonsense so long as it aligns with their pre-conclusions while rejecting basic physics?

No, the soul has not been measured or weighted, and anyone with a 6th grade science education and the slightest ability to think critically will be immediately suspicious of any claims to the contrary.

Here is the truth:

This rumor started in 1911 when Dr. Duncan MacDougall attempted to prove that the human soul existed and had weight. To this end, he put six of his terminally ill patients on beds suspended on scales to determine the patient's weight just before and just after death. The supposition being that when the patient died and the soul left the body, the weight of the body would drop.

When scrutinized, it's found that his experiment used horribly flawed methods, was subject to large experimental errors an order larger than his experimental results, had no control group, and in the end produced inconsistent data at best. More telling is the fact that he claimed to have proven that the soul weighs 21 grams even though the variability of his of his experimental scales was on the order of hundreds of grams.

Despite the fact that if his research were valid, it would have turned the world of medicine on its head and created an entire new branch of science, MacDougall did not make any more tests after 1911. You know why? Because he was fully aware that his work was bullshit with no results as confirmatory follow up tests would have shown. But he was too mired in ego and death anxiety to face the truth and admit this.

Naturally, others have since tried to reproduce MacDougall's results as anyone who could reproduce these results would certainly win the Nobel Prize and become rich and famous. Guess what? No one has ever been able to. Duh!

this experiment has been mimicked with success as well.

Nope.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Diploid]
    #18964252 - 10/11/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you used more than 10% of your brain, you will be able to actually 'see' the soul.


--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964315 - 10/11/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't like it when people say "you only use 10% of your brain". That's bullshit. You use 100% of your brain. A large amount of your brains processing capacity goes towards the maintenance of your body, the only thing I'm listing cause it's the only thing that comes to mind in this stoned state. If 100% went into thinking, seeing, whatever, you'd die.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964325 - 10/11/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So you can't see a soul either, then?


--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964416 - 10/11/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Can you?


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964437 - 10/11/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964452 - 10/11/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So no, it's okay though, no one can :stoned:. That looks more like symbolism for the light of an inspired being, shining through than a soul to me. I've seen aura's on LSD, even then it wasn't a visual thing, it was more like I felt the persons personality by just looking at them.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/11/13 03:08 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago Flag
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964573 - 10/11/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Cool post man. I dig it. :thumbup: I've thought similar things to relieve some of my Death Anxiety.

The anxiety from Death Anxiety arises from being a biological being. Becker says in the Denial of Death that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution.

A question that looms over my mind from idea like your OP are, if we lower our shields to look at our mortality, and comfortably accept death like you've laid out, then how can we live life without these shields? Or are these just more shields that we're building to deal with the prospect of our mortality?

Something in DA literature that always seems to be persisting is that, DA is so primal and interwoven in our being, that we need shields to operate. So are we just layering shields? Is your idea of death just another shield?


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964592 - 10/11/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:





:gameover:


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: r72rock]
    #18964660 - 10/11/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Cool post man. I dig it. :thumbup: I've thought similar things to relieve some of my Death Anxiety.

The anxiety from Death Anxiety arises from being a biological being. Becker says in the Denial of Death that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution.

A question that looms over my mind from idea like your OP are, if we lower our shields to look at our mortality, and comfortably accept death like you've laid out, then how can we live life without these shields? Or are these just more shields that we're building to deal with the prospect of our mortality?

Something in DA literature that always seems to be persisting is that, DA is so primal and interwoven in our being, that we need shields to operate. So are we just layering shields? Is your idea of death just another shield?




Good questions. I guess the way I look at it is that humans, having built civilization, discovered a way to sort of overcome biological imperatives, or instinct. We started off as hunters, now that we have such a ridiculous amount of food, and systems to easily and with a degree of sustainability obtain that food, we no longer need to hunt, we no longer need to spend so much time thinking about survival. We have developed a level of comfort which allows us to instinctually transcend our ancestors in every way. No longer do we need hunters, instead we have people devoting there lives to the gathering of knowledge, to art, to music, to things that in the old days would have been completely impractical and of no help to the survival of humanity. This is analogous to my feelings about death. I feel we can overcome the shield, the denial of death, realize that it's a part of life, and a beautiful one at that. If we were to accept our mortality, in the most critical light, which is when you die, you cease to exist, and be comfortable with the fact; we would no longer spend such an incredible amount of effort pondering the thought, and looking for a way out of it. The same way a sustainable food source gave us the freedom to build ourselves as individuals; the acceptance of death could potentially give us the freedom to focus on this place, focus on being alive, and doing the most you can do while you're here. Imagine if the millenia we spent developing our religions, which are undeniably used to bring comfort to the our understanding of our own mortality, was instead spent on something more practical, and relevant to this time and place.

Just as further evidence of this idea, we have a biological imperative to reproduce, to keep the species going. What happens when we develop the technology to do so artificially? We are already on the way. We can already alter DNA in order to create a more "perfect" human being. What happens when we come to the point of a Brave New World-esque society? The biological imperative to reproduce is no longer needed. We have a sustainable, and much more reliable source of human life. So we toss the instinct aside, and, at least this is what I would do, focus on pleasure. We no longer do this for babies, we do this solely for the sake of pleasure. Thus our biology evolves to be more pleasure centered, as that's what we need of it. This is all speculation, please correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964745 - 10/11/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So you can't see a soul either, then?

I can. :ohwell:



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Diploid]
    #18964758 - 10/11/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What's it like?


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago Flag
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18968007 - 10/12/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Good questions. I guess the way I look at it is that humans, having built civilization, discovered a way to sort of overcome biological imperatives, or instinct. We started off as hunters, now that we have such a ridiculous amount of food, and systems to easily and with a degree of sustainability obtain that food, we no longer need to hunt, we no longer need to spend so much time thinking about survival. We have developed a level of comfort which allows us to instinctually transcend our ancestors in every way. No longer do we need hunters, instead we have people devoting there lives to the gathering of knowledge, to art, to music, to things that in the old days would have been completely impractical and of no help to the survival of humanity. This is analogous to my feelings about death. I feel we can overcome the shield, the denial of death, realize that it's a part of life, and a beautiful one at that. If we were to accept our mortality, in the most critical light, which is when you die, you cease to exist, and be comfortable with the fact; we would no longer spend such an incredible amount of effort pondering the thought, and looking for a way out of it. The same way a sustainable food source gave us the freedom to build ourselves as individuals; the acceptance of death could potentially give us the freedom to focus on this place, focus on being alive, and doing the most you can do while you're here. Imagine if the millenia we spent developing our religions, which are undeniably used to bring comfort to the our understanding of our own mortality, was instead spent on something more practical, and relevant to this time and place.

Just as further evidence of this idea, we have a biological imperative to reproduce, to keep the species going. What happens when we develop the technology to do so artificially? We are already on the way. We can already alter DNA in order to create a more "perfect" human being. What happens when we come to the point of a Brave New World-esque society? The biological imperative to reproduce is no longer needed. We have a sustainable, and much more reliable source of human life. So we toss the instinct aside, and, at least this is what I would do, focus on pleasure. We no longer do this for babies, we do this solely for the sake of pleasure. Thus our biology evolves to be more pleasure centered, as that's what we need of it. This is all speculation, please correct me if I'm wrong.




That was very thought provoking. I'm still kinda processing what you said. Overall, I believe I follow you and agree. I'm mostly thinking about your last paragraph and what it'd mean for humanity.

:cheers:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 27 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18968229 - 10/12/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
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Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968291 - 10/12/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:




Right there with ya! :mindblown:

What you said about your mother reminded me of some similar things that I have heard from near-death experience research. In my research on NDEs, I found it rather peculiar that experiencers essentially "got what they wanted" upon death. It was as if what was seen after death was a direct karmic reaction to the life lived on earth.

For example, when researching the realm of the void (a spiritual dimension that exists within us; a place for souls to examine their own mind, contemplate their recent earth experience, and decide where they want to go next) I discovered that for some, the void is a beautiful and heavenly experience because, in the absence of all else, they are able to perfectly see the love and light they have cultivated within themselves.

For other souls, the void is a terrifying and horrible hell because, in the absence of everything, they are able to perfectly see within themselves the lack of love and light they have cultivated within themselves.

So this "void" experience after death had the potential to be heavenly or hellish depending on the intentions, nature, character, etc. of the soul. To me that just means that, whether there's an afterlife or not, love and light are still the only pathways to freedom and bliss.


--------------------


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