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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Ignorance
    #18954195 - 10/09/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm wondering what's everyone's take on spiritual ignorance here?
How do you see it?
And most importantly, what's behind the ignorance? Can this behind be even explained?


Edited by HeartAndMind (10/09/13 12:45 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18954965 - 10/09/13 03:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How is spiritual ignorance different from regular ignorance? I'm just curious how you'd separate them.

To me, I say it comes from seeing what you want to see rather than seeing what reality is. The ignorance comes from convincing yourself that you see something someway rather than seeing it for what it is. Or at least, that's how I think about it. :sun:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Ignorance [Re: r72rock]
    #18955167 - 10/09/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

neither one is a moral guide
spirituality is like air, for some,
like shit on a shoe for others.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineSse
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18956251 - 10/09/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"Ignorance conditions volitional actions. Volitional actions condition consciousness. Consciousness conditions mind/body."

Five Aggregates
Form
Feelings or sensations
Perceptions
Intentionality or will(Mental Formations)
Consciousness

"In the Five Aggregates, there is nothing that we can call a self. Ignorance is the inability to see this truth. Consciousness, mind/body, the six senses and their objects, contact, and feeling are the effect of ignorance and volitional actions. "

"Because of craving, grasping, and coming to be, there will be birth and death, which means the continuation of this wheel, or chain, again and again."

All phenomena that arise interdependently,
I say that they are empty.
Words come to an end, because their message is false.
Words come to an end, because there is a Middle Way.


-

People talk endlessly about their sufferings and their joy.
But what is there to suffer or be joyful about?
Joy from sensual pleasure always leads to pain,
and suffering while practicing the Way always brings joy.
Wherever there is joy, there is suffering.
If you want to have no-suffering, you must accept no-joy.


-

All conditioned things are impermanent,
They are phenomena, subject to birth and death.
When birth and death no longer are,
the complete silencing is joy.





The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (10/09/13 08:43 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18956286 - 10/09/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
I'm wondering what's everyone's take on spiritual ignorance here?
How do you see it?
And most importantly, what's behind the ignorance? Can this behind be even explained?




Anything baseless/groundless yet seen as solid is ignorance. For me this includes everything I can think of. The only solid ground to be found in my experience is imagined.

Therefore this also applies to ignorance. It is baseless yet it is imagined to have ground. And that is ignorance in action.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Sse]
    #18956290 - 10/09/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

When a Sentient Being has heard no Dharma he is lacking True Knowledge.


Ignorance of Dharma causes them to make errors (repeated mistakes),they have Karma, and then they Reincarnate.

Dharma stipulates the Moral Standards of the Enlightened Beings.

Higher Standards, Higher Levels, and Higher Responsibilities.


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Mr.Al]
    #18958447 - 10/10/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
How is spiritual ignorance different from regular ignorance? I'm just curious how you'd separate them.
To me, I say it comes from seeing what you want to see rather than seeing what reality is. The ignorance comes from convincing yourself that you see something someway rather than seeing it for what it is. Or at least, that's how I think about it. :sun:





I don't really see the difference. I just thought that such name suited the forum.
Thanks for the input though, that's something good do digest:smile:
Quote:

Sse said:



"In the Five Aggregates, there is nothing that we can call a self. Ignorance is the inability to see this truth.




:thumbup: That's probably closest definition.


Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
I'm wondering what's everyone's take on spiritual ignorance here?
How do you see it?
And most importantly, what's behind the ignorance? Can this behind be even explained?




Anything baseless/groundless yet seen as solid is ignorance. For me this includes everything I can think of. The only solid ground to be found in my experience is imagined.

Therefore this also applies to ignorance. It is baseless yet it is imagined to have ground. And that is ignorance in action.




That's what I thought of earlier. One priest at church, where I go to, said that basically sins are unreal, they are imagined, so the whole realm of hell is unreal, yet 'lost' souls are suffering/are being cleansed there.

I'm wondering how one can see unreality of ignorance though.

I think same idea can be applied to the world - it all dissapears when we sleep. Then we see dreams and they appear as real as our waking world,
we engage in dream problems and they are as real as our 'real' problems, but dissapear completely when we wake up.
I'm wondering if death is just end of this 'dream'.





Quote:

Mr.Al said:
When a Sentient Being has heard no Dharma he is lacking True Knowledge.


Ignorance of Dharma causes them to make errors (repeated mistakes),they have Karma, and then they Reincarnate.

Dharma stipulates the Moral Standards of the Enlightened Beings.

Higher Standards, Higher Levels, and Higher Responsibilities.





What do you think is the highest Dharma one has to know?


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18958466 - 10/10/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You're using the term Dharma incorrectly.

Dharma - the Buddhist term relates to right action in all circumstances.

Dharma in Hindu terms is serving those with right livelihood. 

Spiritual truth is too vast to be sounded out with intellectual terms.

The greatest spiritual sin that I know is to knowingly do grievous harm without any concern.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Ignorance [Re: eve69]
    #18958485 - 10/10/13 09:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks, didn't know that.

Quote:

Spiritual truth is too vast to be sounded out with intellectual terms.




Agree, imo it can only be experienced, but some words, with right understanding by the subject can bring that experience about.


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18958503 - 10/10/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To me Spiritual ignorance is when you preach something you don't practice applying to not only others but also to the private dialogue one maintains in their head.

I think Denial explains it wherein an individual is conflicted between who they believe themselves to be and the reality of who they actually are. Through these terms we are all somewhat spiritually ignorant which reflects upon the planet we currently occupy.


--------------------


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OfflineSse
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18959333 - 10/10/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
Agree, imo it can only be experienced, but some words, with right understanding by the subject can bring that experience about.




The bud
stands for all things,
even for those things that don't flower,
for everything flowers, from within, of self-blessing;
though sometimes it is necessary
to reteach a thing its loveliness,
to put a hand on the brow
of the flower,
and retell it in words and in touch,
it is lovely
until it flowers again from within, of self-blessing

-Galway Kennel

Neither giving nor taking
Neither for nor against
Leave your mind at rest
With perceptions remain unconcerned
The great Way is a mind open to everything
which clings to nothing
which fixates nowhere
Radiant and stainless
Rest in the unmoved, uncreated and spontaneous
and you will soon reach Buddhahood.

-Tilopa, A tenth-century yogi

We practice illusory practice in an illusory
way, in order to reach illusory enlightenment
and deliver all illusory beings from illusory
suffering.

-Twelfth-century Tibetan master Khyungpo Naljyor

"Do you remember," the Buddha asked, "how you used to tune the sitar strings as a young lay person?"
"Yes," the young man replied.
"Was the music sweetest when the strings were taut or slack?"
the Buddha gently inquired.
"Neither too tight, nor too loose, Lord; the middle way of moderation and balance always proved best," said the monk.
"Thus it is with meditation, young monk," said the Buddha.
"In meditation and spiritual efforts, as in all things balance is always best."

"This balanced combination of effort, inner detachment, and genuine equanimity helps us to come home within ourselves, and arrive at a feeling of inner peace and oneness. We can live in the total fullness of being, just as we are, rather than always striving for the illusory pot of gold at the end of some vivid yet intangible rainbow. This great letting go and letting be brings forth the soulful wisdom of allowing, of being precisely where you are, who you are, and what you are-beyond running towards or away from anything. All this running to-and-fro is a symptom of attachment and aversion, and is unfulfilling in the ultimate analysis.

The Buddha said, "There is no way to happiness and peace. Happiness and peace is the way."

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Sse]
    #18963350 - 10/11/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:psychsplit: :thumbup:


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind] * 1
    #18963623 - 10/11/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Spiritual ignorance is knowing, thinking you know something

Spirit is unknowable through the thinking mind, so when you think you know something you are ignorant of spirit, so spiritual ignorance is thinking, thinking you know something, thinking there is something you have to think about, thinking

There is nothing separate from spirit so what is there to think of?

What's behind ignorance? The same that's behind everything else, nothing

To know nothing is wisdom, wisdom is not knowing any thing


--------------------


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Offlinecbub
it
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Chronic7]
    #18963747 - 10/11/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And the knowledge of this, is ego drawing life from what seems it's demise xD


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Chronic7]
    #18967658 - 10/12/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Spiritual ignorance is knowing, thinking you know something

Spirit is unknowable through the thinking mind, so when you think you know something you are ignorant of spirit, so spiritual ignorance is thinking, thinking you know something, thinking there is something you have to think about, thinking

There is nothing separate from spirit so what is there to think of?

What's behind ignorance? The same that's behind everything else, nothing

To know nothing is wisdom, wisdom is not knowing any thing




Is there any easy way to empty mind and really know nothing?


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18967848 - 10/12/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

if i said there is a way to do it then you could feel like its something you can then know how to do
nobody can know 'how to' know nothing, you don't really do anything, you stop doing
you stop knowing anything through thinking about it

its simpler than emptying the mind really
think of a pot full of something, you can empty the pot bit by bit, that's like sadhana, do things that can help to empty out the mind of thoughts, to space out the clutter a bit, or realize the very atoms that make up the pot & its contents are themselves nothing but emptiness

so there's nothing to subtract from yourself so you are then emptied, your not really trying to empty out your mind so your left as an an empty vessel, an empty shell, and not trying to 'know nothing'
it's more that things are realized as already empty, that you don't need thoughts in order to know anything

there are many ways to stop thinking, the most quintessential is recognizing that you are not a thought


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18967852 - 10/12/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Is there any easy way to empty mind and really know nothing?



Only this way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Ignorance [Re: Icelander]
    #18968108 - 10/12/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Is there any easy way to empty mind and really know nothing?




I've been given large injections of Haldol on at least three occasions and you just pass out.  When you wake up everything you've been working on mentally seems gone but there are little glimmers of the 'something that was going on' beckoning you back down the rabbit hole.  Once I lost everything that I was.  I didn't know who I was anymore.  Couple that experience with another antipsychotic like zyprexa long term and your mind just goes numb and doesn't think at all.  Fuck all that.

You don't really know 'nothing' but with the OH SHIT I RUINED MY LIFE scenario blazing it feels like every detail that was ever learned is now suspect.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Ignorance [Re: HeartAndMind] * 1
    #18968259 - 10/12/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Now, with regard to the diversity of relative appearances;
They are all perishable; not one of them is genuinely existent.
All phenomenal existence, all the things of cyclic existence and nirvana,
Are the discernible manifestations of the unique essential nature of one's own mind.

[This is known because] whenever one's own mental continuum undergoes change,
There will arise the discernible manifestation of an external change.

Therefore, all things are the discernible manifestations of mind.

For as long as this diversity [of appearances] is being perceived and diversely elucidated,
Differences [as to the nature of appearances] are apprehended,
And consequently, bewilderment comes about through attachment to those respective [views].

Yet even though all those appearances, of which one is aware in one's own mind.
Do arise as discernible manifestations,
Buddhahood is present [simply] when they are not subjectively apprehended or grasped.
Bewilderment does not come about on account of these appearances-
But it does come about through their subjective apprehension.
[Thus], if the subjectively apprehending thoughts are known to be [of the single nature of] mind, they will be liberated of their own accord.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Ignorance [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18968264 - 10/12/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
realize the very atoms that make up the pot & its contents are themselves nothing but emptiness





Wow, that's good pointer. It seems like it's thinking certain way so that your mind does not go on thinking chaotically. To have one strong thought that leads to quiet mind is necessary. I think I should have a goal in life to not wander that much.


Quote:

so there's nothing to subtract from yourself so you are then emptied, your not really trying to empty out your mind so your left as an an empty vessel, an empty shell, and not trying to 'know nothing'
it's more that things are realized as already empty, that you don't need thoughts in order to know anything



Thanks for sharing, really good stuff. I'll keep that one with me:smile:

Quote:

Icelander said:
Only this way.



:rofl:


Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:

Is there any easy way to empty mind and really know nothing?




I've been given large injections of Haldol on at least three occasions and you just pass out.  When you wake up everything you've been working on mentally seems gone but there are little glimmers of the 'something that was going on' beckoning you back down the rabbit hole.  Once I lost everything that I was.  I didn't know who I was anymore.  Couple that experience with another antipsychotic like zyprexa long term and your mind just goes numb and doesn't think at all.  Fuck all that.

You don't really know 'nothing' but with the OH SHIT I RUINED MY LIFE scenario blazing it feels like every detail that was ever learned is now suspect.




Once I had epileptic seizure and went unconscious, then I remember as I woke up I didn't know who I was, where I was and who that woman was who was sitting near by me. I was feeling quite light and free. Then I remembered where I was and that woman was my mom.:lol:
I was left wondering later that how much burden was lifted during that time. I had no worries, and I didn't know anything about myself, yet I existed.
I also was prescribed with anti seizure drugs, but I stopped taking them because when under the influence, everything seemed nice and calm.
And I couldn't think normally to do my work, so I dropped them. Everything is fine without them now.

I don't think you should think that you ruined your life, you still exists throught all those experiences and are perfectly yourself.


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