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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Forest.dweller]
    #18967298 - 10/12/13 06:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Forest.dweller said:
:thumbup:
good article bro.
i d love to rub it in any believers face.
but you know how they are...
"whell he created these misleading clues to test our faith in him"

BLAAA BLA BLAA BLABLAA





If it was proved beyond doubt that Jesus never existed and was created by agents of The Roman State for purposes of maintaining hegemony - Christians wouldn't care!

You can't win an argument about a faith because that faith is not based on reason. 

But for the rest of us, we can at least understand.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18967375 - 10/12/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This seems to be the case.  I have found that the religious true believer has an amazing capacity to ignore the most profound and obvious evidence if it interferes with his personal desires. 

(Kind of sounds like the opposite of egolessness doesn't it. :wink:)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
    #18967445 - 10/12/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death".


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18967470 - 10/12/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death".





Unqualified mush argument


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18967483 - 10/12/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Huh? Clarify yourself. Who has given you the authority to call me unqualified? I have been in both churches and temples, synagogues and mosques, I have seen it all. And I was agreeing with Icelander when he said that the religious bigot has "an amazing capacity to ignore the most profound and obvious evidence if it interferes with his personal desires." Based on my experiences, this is a true statement.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18967668 - 10/12/13 09:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you.  To me it was meaningless.


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Offlineomegafaust
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18967681 - 10/12/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

certainly biased, but the information is sound and very detailed.


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The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself.  All you are is a thought.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
    #18967826 - 10/12/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

okay, thanks


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18967839 - 10/12/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you.  To me it was meaningless.




Okay you want specifics? Fair enough.

For 2 years I worked for a Gaudiya Vaishnava gift store and regularly attended the Hare Krishna temple with my fellow devotee co-workers. I remember one time I was attending a Sunday love feast meeting and the topic that night was about false ego. The guru was expounding on Srila Prabhupada's ideas of false ego and his specific teachings in various lectures such as, "Take Shelter of Krishna and Become Powerful".

Now, I had already learned about the evils of false ego and about ego death through my use of psychedelics and, to me, ego death was something that everyone should attain. The Krishnas seemed to agree. So the guru began expounding on this concept of false ego and how it should be destroyed (essentially ego death). I can think of some specific examples of, not only his words, but the words of some others in the ISKCON movement that stress the importance of ego death:

"Due to false ego & selfish disposition we find everyone as potential enemy." -Radhanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)


"If you become conscious of Me (Lord Krishna), you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My (Krishna’s) grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness, but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost." Bhagavadgita 18.58 (Spoken by Krishna himself)

"Cleansing of the mirror of consciousness takes place, as one minimizes his bodily concept of false ego." -Lokanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)


-A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISKCON)


-Bhakti Charu Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)

I could go forever, but the fact of the matter is that Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as well as other sects of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and the Smarta tradition, all believe that the false ego should be minimized or even destroyed (if possible).

However, in my personal experience with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, I found that: despite their belief in the importance of ego death, despite their ramblings on the unity of all religions, and despite their supposed liberal, all-inclusive mentality, they were just as fundamental in their belief systems as Christians were. They believed that Krishna was the one and only true God (they believe Krishna is higher than Brahman), they believe all things stem from Krishna alone (just as Shaivites believe that all things stem from Shiva), and they believe that Krishna is "second to none". Jesus was not God, Buddha was considered blasphemous and Mohammed was simply swept under the rug. They masked their intolerance of other faiths with an "All is One" banner, but in reality they were not tolerant of other belief systems. Only their belief system would set one free from the cycle of birth and death.

So back to the main point, during my time with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect I sat in front of many gurus and listened to many talks on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death. At first, this caused me to believe that the Krishnas were just like me with an open-minded, free spirited, anything goes personality. But I soon realized that they were not, and this was confirmed upon me challenging some devotees on some specific topics such as... meat-eating for example.

They wear a great facade of tolerance to every faith and culture, but beware:

"Those who eat meat never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who have sex for pleasure never have the chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who gamble never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who take intoxicants never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

Sounds a lot like the seven deadly sins huh? Instead, it's the four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada put in place himself: no meat-eating, no sex, no gambling, no intoxicants. If these four principles aren't followed, you have no chance of being saved.

Therefore, despite the various lectures on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death, the truth is, the Hare Krishnas have a big ego. They believe that their way is the only way, just like Christians.

So earlier when I said, "And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death", this is what I meant.

Specific enough?


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968147 - 10/12/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hindus are fucked.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968262 - 10/12/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you.  To me it was meaningless.




Okay you want specifics? Fair enough.

For 2 years I worked for a Gaudiya Vaishnava gift store and regularly attended the Hare Krishna temple with my fellow devotee co-workers. I remember one time I was attending a Sunday love feast meeting and the topic that night was about false ego. The guru was expounding on Srila Prabhupada's ideas of false ego and his specific teachings in various lectures such as, "Take Shelter of Krishna and Become Powerful".

Now, I had already learned about the evils of false ego and about ego death through my use of psychedelics and, to me, ego death was something that everyone should attain. The Krishnas seemed to agree. So the guru began expounding on this concept of false ego and how it should be destroyed (essentially ego death). I can think of some specific examples of, not only his words, but the words of some others in the ISKCON movement that stress the importance of ego death:

"Due to false ego & selfish disposition we find everyone as potential enemy." -Radhanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)


"If you become conscious of Me (Lord Krishna), you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My (Krishna’s) grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness, but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost." Bhagavadgita 18.58 (Spoken by Krishna himself)

"Cleansing of the mirror of consciousness takes place, as one minimizes his bodily concept of false ego." -Lokanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)


-A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISKCON)


-Bhakti Charu Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)

I could go forever, but the fact of the matter is that Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as well as other sects of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and the Smarta tradition, all believe that the false ego should be minimized or even destroyed (if possible).

However, in my personal experience with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, I found that: despite their belief in the importance of ego death, despite their ramblings on the unity of all religions, and despite their supposed liberal, all-inclusive mentality, they were just as fundamental in their belief systems as Christians were. They believed that Krishna was the one and only true God (they believe Krishna is higher than Brahman), they believe all things stem from Krishna alone (just as Shaivites believe that all things stem from Shiva), and they believe that Krishna is "second to none". Jesus was not God, Buddha was considered blasphemous and Mohammed was simply swept under the rug. They masked their intolerance of other faiths with an "All is One" banner, but in reality they were not tolerant of other belief systems. Only their belief system would set one free from the cycle of birth and death.

So back to the main point, during my time with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect I sat in front of many gurus and listened to many talks on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death. At first, this caused me to believe that the Krishnas were just like me with an open-minded, free spirited, anything goes personality. But I soon realized that they were not, and this was confirmed upon me challenging some devotees on some specific topics such as... meat-eating for example.

They wear a great facade of tolerance to every faith and culture, but beware:

"Those who eat meat never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who have sex for pleasure never have the chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who gamble never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

"Those who take intoxicants never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"

Sounds a lot like the seven deadly sins huh? Instead, it's the four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada put in place himself: no meat-eating, no sex, no gambling, no intoxicants. If these four principles aren't followed, you have no chance of being saved.

Therefore, despite the various lectures on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death, the truth is, the Hare Krishnas have a big ego. They believe that their way is the only way, just like Christians.

So earlier when I said, "And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death", this is what I meant.

Specific enough?





Yes, that's more like it, thank you.  The Prahupada peeps weren't the best category of Eastern spiritual adherents to set as a standard.  I am from LA and grew up going to the Venice Beach yearly festival and I have my own stories of lack of empathy amongst their tribe.

I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego.  In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.

In Sanatan Dharma proper ego is to be upheld through correct action, not through false and flaky fanaticism. The Neo-Advaitins have made ego-shrinking a whole sub-teaching. 

Denial of any form creates unpromising conditions for development. It is like washing dishes in a sink of dirty water. One must consider each element in turn in order to...
wash clean dishes....


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18968342 - 10/12/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Prahupada peeps weren't the best category of Eastern spiritual adherents to set as a standard.




I never set them as a standard. Here's what I said:

Quote:

Some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians




Notice how I said some.

Not all, not even the majority, just some.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18969050 - 10/12/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Okay.  You win.


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InvisiblecArcace-x
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18991968 - 10/17/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

a good documentary here on our dear friend Jeebuz!


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OfflineMahananda


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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
    #18992690 - 10/17/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego.  In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.





You probably wouldn't disagree, but as a footnote to this, the concept of ahamkara as a component of prakriti, to be transcended by the purusha, dates from at least as early as ~ 200 BCE - 200CE.

Edit: Sorry to hear that about ISKCON. I always wanted to go to one of the vegetarian feasts, but now I'm not so sure :frown:


--------------------
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times,
Come, yet again, come, come


Edited by Mahananda (10/17/13 07:49 PM)


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Mahananda]
    #18995145 - 10/18/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mahananda said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego.  In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.





You probably wouldn't disagree, but as a footnote to this, the concept of ahamkara as a component of prakriti, to be transcended by the purusha, dates from at least as early as ~ 200 BCE - 200CE.

Edit: Sorry to hear that about ISKCON. I always wanted to go to one of the vegetarian feasts, but now I'm not so sure :frown:




:woooaaahhh:


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
    #19005503 - 10/20/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Here's how I see it. All religions stem from people's fear of death.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
    #19005559 - 10/20/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Seems like a logical assumption imo.  It just might be the case. That doesn't mean however it's the only reason for religions.  :pope:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
    #19007120 - 10/21/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Seems like a logical assumption imo.  It just might be the case. That doesn't mean however it's the only reason for religions.  :pope:




I can agree with that.  I just feel fear of death is got to be at the top of the list


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
    #19007158 - 10/21/13 05:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Next is money.

You'd think the king of Israel would have at least something written about him. Every king in Rome, England, japan, China, etc. Has been documented. The king of Israel is from word of mouth? Lol k.


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