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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate?
    #18965268 - 10/11/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm just curious about what YOU do. This topic is mostly for the "bored out of your mind" crowd.

Mixing your spawn in to your substrate is a widely accepted practice. That's how I do it.

However, in RR's "Let's Grow Mushrooms" the chapter "On Horse Manure", he says he layers because mixing can damage the grain and expose the un-colonized inside which can lead to contamination.

I think some peoples substrate contamination issues may be from mixing to roughly, as opposed to it always being a "ninja in the spawn", like so many are quick to say.

I don't doubt the hidden contam argument, but I also think people may be too quick to jump on that bandwagon without considering the rough mixing possibility.

I usually read something like "If you use CVG and get a contamination before the first flush, then it's your spawn." Is it possible that statement could sometimes be a little short-sighted?

If you're a mixer, I'd like to hear from you. Maybe you have some sort of analogy to describe your mixing? Do I make sense at all?

I'm not trying to start a "layer vs mix" debate. I just want to examine the mixing in a little more detail in the form of friendly discussion.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18965293 - 10/11/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I pour all my sub in the tub and then I pour all my spawn in. Wearing rubber gloves I just reach in and start mixing until I feel it's mixed evenly. I wouldn't say I'm rough with it but I'm not gentle either. I've never had trouble with contams. Also I usually use the bucket tek. I use coir / verm / gypsum


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18965351 - 10/11/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

However, in RR's "Let's Grow Mushrooms" the chapter "On Horse Manure", he says he layers because mixing can damage the grain and expose the un-colonized inside which can lead to contamination.



I saw that when I first started out but mixing seemed to be more intuitive than layering. I mixed from the get but gently, I'll go into that below.
Quote:


I think some peoples substrate contamination issues may be from mixing to roughly, as opposed to it always being a "ninja in the spawn", like so many are quick to say.



I could agree with that, not that I have the necessarily experience but it makes more sense.

Quote:

I don't doubt the hidden contam argument, but I also think people may be too quick to jump on that bandwagon without considering the rough mixing possibility.



I see lot's of "forum rhetoric" like tall half pints not working, to which I say I have only ever had awesome success with them. Sometimes People "know things" not from experience but from RR quotes.


Quote:

If you're a mixer, I'd like to hear from you. Maybe you have some sort of analogy to describe your mixing? Do I make sense at all?



I don't use gloves just washed hands with regular soap not antibacterial because why bother. I make it pre-mixed by layering the sub and spawn into a gigantic plastic mixing bowl. Then I just lightly(as to not break grains light) mix the spawn. I would say the analogy would be like mixing sand with a few pieces of broken glass in that you can't see. You want to mix it light enough that if you by chance got a piece of glass near your hand you wouldn't cut it because of how gentile you're being.

As for ninja contamination I don't think it's as rampant as it's cited. I remember Frank saying he had a petri that looked good but under a microscope he saw contams running along side healthy MYC. That's probably a rare case but I couldn't say for certain. (I have read way to many threads here :blazed:)

Here's the link


Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/11/13 07:13 PM)


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18965376 - 10/11/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I just make sure all the grain is separated and spawn to cvg. Never gloves, Lysol, or anything. With horse dung I do the same, although I haven't used it in a while.

Clean spawn a and pastuerized substrate and you should have no issues with spawning


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18965425 - 10/11/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:

Clean spawn a and pastuerized substrate and you should have no issues with spawning




^^This


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18965453 - 10/11/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I see lot's of "forum rhetoric" like tall half pints not working, to which I say I have only ever had awesome success with them. Sometimes People "know things" not from experience but from RR quotes.




On this I would just like to say that when I was doing cakes I did several jars of both types and I had success with both. Although I noticed much faster colonization times with the short wide mouth jars and they fruited just as good if not better than the tall ones.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18965483 - 10/11/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I see lot's of "forum rhetoric" like tall half pints not working, to which I say I have only ever had awesome success with them. Sometimes People "know things" not from experience but from RR quotes.




On this I would just like to say that when I was doing cakes I did several jars of both types and I had success with both. Although I noticed much faster colonization times with the short wide mouth jars and they fruited just as good if not better than the tall ones.




And on that note I have never used the wide mouth 1/2 pints to compare. But with that said my colonization times are always in line with the average times cited for "proper" pf jars. If they're obtainable without having to spend twice as much for online shipping I would say use them if not the tall guys wont hurt your chances.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18965500 - 10/11/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The thing I have learned about the tall jars is that you have to load the substrate very loose in them to keep them from wanting to stall on the bottom


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18965540 - 10/11/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
The thing I have learned about the tall jars is that you have to load the substrate very loose in them to keep them from wanting to stall on the bottom




I made a funnel that has it's "aperture" as big as the top of the jar I put the BRF mix in my hands and crumble it into the jars so that it's as light as possible. When I put the verm barrier on I didn't tamp it at all but it was just tight enough that it would be prohibited from moving around by the slight tamping of the screwed down lid.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18965560 - 10/11/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone done a side-by-side with layering vs. mixing with an isolate?
I always layered after I read someone post that their subs wouldn't crack or break as often when trying to dunk it but that was a few years ago.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: abltsandwich]
    #18965586 - 10/11/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

abltsandwich said:
Anyone done a side-by-side with layering vs. mixing with an isolate?
I always layered after I read someone post that their subs wouldn't crack or break as often when trying to dunk it but that was a few years ago.




Most of us don't dunk our bulk subs anymore. We just mist heavily as needed after the first flush


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: abltsandwich]
    #18965651 - 10/11/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

abltsandwich said:
Anyone done a side-by-side with layering vs. mixing with an isolate?
I always layered after I read someone post that their subs wouldn't crack or break as often when trying to dunk it but that was a few years ago.



Well, I've never done a test. But I would advise against laying for 1 reason. When you layers, your myc grows in 3 planes. Forward/backwards up/down side;side. When layering, your spawn grows over brother grain from side to side. Wouldn't you want your spawn mixed evenly so on all 3 planes it grows into sub rather than other grain, which is already colonized?

And don't use a frosting laying. Grain dries out on top and that's a great place for trich to grow


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18965700 - 10/11/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The biggest problem with mixing is if grains are left exposed on the surface.  They dry out, and then when you mist they end up with green molds.  If you add a casing layer, or even a thin layer of bulk substrate material on top after mixing, it takes care of that issue.

When I use filter patch bags for my sawdust or other bulk substrate, I always shake to mix well.  With bulk substrates in trays, I've noticed slightly better performance by layering, but either way is fine.  Just don't forget to put some substrate on top to cover any grains so they're not exposed.
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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18965868 - 10/11/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I dump everything in the tub and mix it gently. I dont throw it around and mix as hard as i can. I gently swirl around the grains and bulk until evenly mixed, slightly pat sides down and vwala done. Take your time mixing slowly scooping the mix rather then digging around so you dont crush grains against the sides and bottom of the tub.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18967412 - 10/12/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Stromrider, bodhisatta, and Jw6457, thanks for your descriptions.

The rest of you have missed the point.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (10/12/13 02:09 PM)


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18968464 - 10/12/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry we got off topic spitball


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18968604 - 10/12/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
or even a thin layer of bulk substrate material on top after mixing, it takes care of that issue.

Just don't forget to put some substrate on top to cover any grains so they're not exposed.
RR




I've always been curious, isn't this the same as leaving grains exposed?

If you cover with say a thin layer of pasteurized uncolonized coir, isn't

that just going to be a buffet for contams and dry out faster than grains

during colonization?


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: rumfor69]
    #18968623 - 10/12/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Covering exposed grains is not really necessary, I have never had a problem with not doing it.

The substrate seems to colonize faster, for me anyways....and a few TCs as well.

It's personal preference really....my tubs colonize in 6-8 days without a top layer usually.

However if the top layer is thin enough, this should not make much difference.

I only said what I said because it is hard to judge the amount you apply, so for some people they can make it really thick and not really notice until it takes forever for the top to finish....then they realize.

We keep the substrate somewhat sealed, and the grains are already fully colonized, so I highly doubt the substrate will dry up in a week....even the top layer.

If it takes longer than that then I could see there being an issue.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: rumfor69]
    #18968625 - 10/12/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is off topic. Thank you.

RR is sometimes a ninja contam.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: rumfor69]
    #18968628 - 10/12/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

For spawning, I:

Dump half the substrate in, spread it out.

Dump the whole bucket of dunked spawn in, spread it out.

Dump the remaining substrate in, spread it out.

Mix it quickly and very thoroughly. I never even take into consideration how gentle or rough I am with it.

Even it back out.


On the issue of handling the grains, I have actually done a few things I thought for sure would lead to problem.

I had very thick mycelial growth on WBS bags before and I broke the grains up mostly by hand. I broke up what I could before opening the spawn bag and dumping it into the cold dunk water. Then I broke the rest up by squeezing and squishing the chunks of mycelium apart. I was very rough with them by anyone's standards.

I haven't seen any contam issues because of it, the grains always seem to recover fine as well.

Not saying that this is good practice, just that when circumstances arose and it needed to be done, it hasn't caused me an issue yet.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18968653 - 10/12/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Covering exposed grains is not really necessary, I have never had a problem with not doing it.

The substrate seems to colonize faster, for me anyways....and a few TCs as well.





It colonized for me faster also, about 6-8 days(10-12 if covered thin.

I figured with faster colonization times the lower the risk of contams

getting a foot hold. I was curious in case there was better pinning if

a thin layer was applied or anything else i might have not known. Thanks


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18968661 - 10/12/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I concur with Hacker and franks post :thumbup: You guys :rockon:


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18968662 - 10/12/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sooo, maybe the damaged grain idea is a little outdated? Or could it just be a difference in WBS and Rye Berries?

I propose that your thick myc had colonized the inside of the WBS. Have you ever done as you described with Rye Berries? Or any other grains?


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18968677 - 10/12/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You know Spitball I have been curious about Rye Berries so I finally bought me a big bag a few weeks ago and I have to say I definitely prefer wbs. Maybe I am just used to it :shrug: Just though I would add that info and I don't even know why :lol:


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18968708 - 10/12/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
You know Spitball I have been curious about Rye Berries so I finally bought me a big bag a few weeks ago and I have to say I definitely prefer wbs. Maybe I am just used to it :shrug: Just though I would add that info and I don't even know why :lol:



I agree. I think it's easier to work with and much more forgiving.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18968721 - 10/12/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like that I can boil the shit out of rye and get it nice and soft. It's just pricey and I prefer the smaller grain size WBS provides.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Sooo, maybe the damaged grain idea is a little outdated?




I certainly wouldn't go that far. I still cringe when I have to be rough with my grains. Maybe I'll have to start repeating my tests over and over and see what happens.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18968744 - 10/12/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
I like that I can boil the shit out of rye



:lmafo:


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18968746 - 10/12/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:getstoned:

:rofl:


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18968761 - 10/12/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Copy and pasted from one of my posts in my thread....

Quote:

I have also wondered about the damaged grains. The only way mine could have gotten damaged was when I toss them in the strainer. They usually drain until they stop dripping, then I toss them around a bit and a good bit more water comes out. My metal strainer could damage them I guess.

As far as mixing goes, I mix pretty gently, but don't pay attention to really being gentle. If you can get what I'm saying.

I always assumed WBS colonized all the way through, at least enough to where nothing else could grow on them, but that's just been my assumption and I have no scientific evidence to back that up. Even if they were damaged, such as cracked in half or something, I figured they'd be okay.




To add a bit to that...

I do wear gloves, the disposable type that you'd find in a doctor's office. I do spray my gloves with a cleaning solution and let them air dry. I really DO try not to damage my grains by being too rough, but I'm not incredibly careful.

As to leaving a little bit of substrate on top of everything...

The way I've though of it is this. If the grains dry out and the myc dies, why would anything else germinate and then begin to grow on it? Now that I type that out, I see a few big flaws in that statement, but it's just what I've always figured.


Edited by jolo (10/12/13 03:20 PM)


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18968830 - 10/12/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I feel ya wee-strom, I'm used to rye berries and that's why I haven't switched. I'm reluctant to go through the struggles of learning something new.

But, if my theory holds true, then it may be wort it. It may colonize deeper, thus be less susceptible to contamination if damaged. :shrug:

BTW, I ave a '05 650 V-strom with 12,000 miles. Awesome bike.


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18968856 - 10/12/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I feel ya wee-strom, I'm used to rye berries and that's why I haven't switched. I'm reluctant to go through the struggles of learning something new.

But, if my theory holds true, then it may be wort it. It may colonize deeper, thus be less susceptible to contamination if damaged. :shrug:

BTW, I ave a '05 650 V-strom with 12,000 miles. Awesome bike.




Man I love my wee! I had a vee for about a year and just wasn't happy with the characteristics of that big v-twin. It made some weird noises and had a lot of vibration. I was told by many people that was normal for that engine. I finally got a chance to ride a wee and I was hooked! It was everything I wished my vee was. I started searching CL and found one within about a month. I am very happy with it. Well until I can afford a GS :cool:


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Re: How rough are you when mixing spawn to substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #26193915 - 09/17/19 01:24 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Old thread... But so interesting to me. I've been struggling with contams at first flush, and my spawn is clean and I got soooo tired of hearing that it has to be my spawn.

My mixing: (cubes, rye, coir)

Bucket tek, then spawn tossed into bucket. Then I hold the bucket above my head and shake it like a shaker for a long time, as hard as I can. a minute isn't enough - comes out uneven.

mold for days. Been fighting this for years. Always using this mixing technique.

I'm spawning 5 tubs today, no one has ever been more gentle than me, today. I'll report back in a few weeks.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. albeit a while back. Perhaps some people are being somewhat rough and it might explain their partial losses. I was being extremely rough, and I got full losses. Maybe I took one for the team and proved your concept! Look at the good I do.FML

t


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Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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