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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Evolution #9 2
#18965078 - 10/11/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Evolution does not happen to an individual.
It is not progress nor improvement.
There is no end-game.

Three is all you can handle for now.
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falcon



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The word evolution has been around a lot longer than Darwin and it still has the broader meanings to it that you're denying.
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hTx
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Re: Evolution SP#1 [Re: falcon]
#18965382 - 10/11/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Gorlax



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Re: Evolution SP#1 [Re: hTx] 1
#18965386 - 10/11/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wrong! We are constantly evolving. It was thought that we've be evolving Generation to Generation but now they have seen examples of evolving within generations!
just went to a seminar on evolutionary theory by the inventor of the Gene gun that injects parasitic genes into plants to make them disease resistant.
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hTx
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Registered: 03/27/13
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Evolution does not happen to an individual.
It is not progress nor improvement.
There is no end-game.

Three is all you can handle for now.
1) evolution does happen to the individual, mutations occur ALL the time during the course of an animals lifetime. Please see science for further proof.
2) evolution is progress and improvement. I don't see how you could say it isn't perhaps you could provide some kind of logical evidence but I doubt it since you believe yourself and views to be ineffable.
Here is my logic: a bird evolves a certain type of beak to improve its food intake.
3) I agree. (unless all life disappears)
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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ClockCode
A Lonely Hypha


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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18965441 - 10/11/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sigh another one of these
-------------------- Psilovibing
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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
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Are you kidding me. I'm don't even have an anthropology major and you're boring me.
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18966060 - 10/11/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mutations occur ALL the time during the course of an animals lifetime
A mutation is not evolution.
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Withinity
Untitled


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So are you saying Crocodiles stayed the same over the course of millions of years simply because they were so well tuned to their environment that they did not have to change/evolve because they were already optimally adapted?
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Life is so fucking magical and awesome. It doesn't need a plan.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
circastes said: Life is so fucking magical and awesome. It doesn't need a plan.
Thanks for your input.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Evolution does not happen to an individual.
It is not progress nor improvement.
There is no end-game.

Three is all you can handle for now.
"Tyger, tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night, What immortal hand or eye Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?" ~ William Blake
Tim Leary gives the answer to this question as DNA.
Do you not think it possible that humanity is now beyond Evolution, or that we have outgrown the process from which We emerged?
What is your opinion of epigenetics; and also biophoton emissions from DNA?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
Do you not think it possible that humanity is now beyond Evolution, or that we have outgrown the process from which We emerged?
This is the type of misconception(s) that I am attempting to address.
It is impossible for a species to 'outgrow' or 'go beyond' this process as it is continuous and always will be, up to the point of extinction.
Evolution is not a force nor does it have a goal; it is a backwards-looking descriptor of how species adapt.
As to epigenetics, that is a fairly recent branch of biology. As this is not my field of expertise, text books or academic articles are worth more than a million uneducated opinions.
Years ago I wrote a few genetic algorithms in software to solve some complex problems. The basic code went something like this for asexual reproduction:
Create X number of random solutions Keep the top 50% of those that give the best (even though initially way off) solutions Mutate one or more variables to each formula for the next generation
Repeat for Y generations or until the error approaches zero or fails to improve.
Sure, I am directing in a very limited sense, but the actual mechanics of what will happen are totally shaped by positive and negative feedback.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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While you were writing algorithms and programs about asexual reproduction, others were out having sexual reproduction. Some even reproduced!
Without the kid, evolution matters not. The ones that have kids, give themselves a chance at winning the evolutionary game. The others sit at home on a Friday night on the internet talking about it cause they aren't in the game.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Do you not think it possible that humanity is now beyond Evolution
Yeah because children who contract leukemia don't live long enough to reproduce and pass that cancer susceptibility to their offspring thus furthering evolution? And dumb people who get drunk and drive into a guardrail don't live long enough to pass stoopidity onto their offspring thus furthering evolution. And smart people who succeed in life don't get to have children born and reared in good neighborhoods with good food, private schools, and outstanding medical care don't get to pass those traits onto their children thus furthering evolution.
What fantasy planet are you from that people don't live and die every day at the hands of myriad evolutionary selective pressures?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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How many baby moons you got?
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tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Do you not think it possible that humanity is now beyond Evolution, or that we have outgrown the process from which We emerged?
This is the type of misconception(s) that I am attempting to address.
It is impossible for a species to 'outgrow' or 'go beyond' this process as it is continuous and always will be, up to the point of extinction.
Evolution is not a force nor does it have a goal; it is a backwards-looking descriptor of how species adapt.
As to epigenetics, that is a fairly recent branch of biology. As this is not my field of expertise, text books or academic articles are worth more than a million uneducated opinions.
Years ago I wrote a few genetic algorithms in software to solve some complex problems. The basic code went something like this for asexual reproduction:
Create X number of random solutions Keep the top 50% of those that give the best (even though initially way off) solutions Mutate one or more variables to each formula for the next generation
Repeat for Y generations or until the error approaches zero or fails to improve.
Sure, I am directing in a very limited sense, but the actual mechanics of what will happen are totally shaped by positive and negative feedback.
Becomes extinct, or transcends their material limitations. 
On the subject of epigenetics, from what little I've read; I understand it to pertain to a way that gene expression can be altered without changing the underlying DNA, and that these changes can sometimes be inherited by the next generation. This would infer that evolutionary level changes can be induced upon the individual.
You definitely have many talents OC, I didn't know playing cyber God was amongst them. 
Do you find credible, the claims that DNA transmits and receives biophotons?
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tribesman
Never satisfied



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: Diploid]
#18968577 - 10/12/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Do you not think it possible that humanity is now beyond Evolution
Yeah because children who contract leukemia don't live long enough to reproduce and pass that cancer susceptibility to their offspring thus furthering evolution? And dumb people who get drunk and drive into a guardrail don't live long enough to pass stoopidity onto their offspring thus furthering evolution. And smart people who succeed in life don't get to have children born and reared in good neighborhoods with good food, private schools, and outstanding medical care don't get to pass those traits onto their children thus furthering evolution.
What fantasy planet are you from that people don't live and die every day at the hands of myriad evolutionary selective pressures?
Yeah you got my number Diploid.
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OrgoneConclusion
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As dedicated Shroomery members, we are trying very hard to rid the world of the robo-tripping gene.
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tribesman
Never satisfied



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tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: While you were writing algorithms and programs about asexual reproduction, others were out having sexual reproduction. Some even reproduced!
Without the kid, evolution matters not. The ones that have kids, give themselves a chance at winning the evolutionary game. The others sit at home on a Friday night on the internet talking about it cause they aren't in the game.

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OrgoneConclusion
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Evolutionary geniuses much like cockroaches.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18968832 - 10/12/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: 2) evolution is progress and improvement. I don't see how you could say it isn't perhaps you could provide some kind of logical evidence but I doubt it since you believe yourself and views to be ineffable.
Here is my logic: a bird evolves a certain type of beak to improve its food intake.
No it doesn't. A bird doesn't do anything besides try to survive and reproduce. If one bird has a mutation which allows it to get more food it will reproduce more, and more of its offspring with the advantageous mutation will survive.
It's totally possible to evolve things which are useful in one situation, but then become terrible when the environment changes. For instance, take the story of the peppered moth. Moths in one area used to be white to blend in with the local birch trees, until a factory was built nearby which started contaminating the air with soot and turning the trees darker. Now the white moths were more likely to be seen by the birds, but moths which were naturally darker colored were less likely to be seen. Eventually almost all the moths in that area are darker colored.
But then, imagine the factory closes down and the trees recover. They become white once again. Now the black moths are screwed.
This sort of thing happens all the time in nature. Evolution is not progression up some ladder. It is heartless and blind, without purpose. It is the result of the drive to reproduce combined with limited resources.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: How many baby moons you got?
Two.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
mutations occur ALL the time during the course of an animals lifetime
A mutation is not evolution.
A mutation is precisely evolution, even by darwins standards.
For instance, if you believe that man evolved from ape, it happened because of several surviving beneficial mutations over an extended period of time, resulting in an entirely new species that became apex.
I believe most would agree that intelligence is a favored trait amongst any animal. There is no denying that humans are more intelligent than all other known terrestrial land animals.
It wouldn't surprise me if we found out that a marine species, specifically from the Cetacea genus, was more intelligent than humans. But we rule the land, there is no denying that.
And it happened because of evolution, assuming you believe such a thing is taking place.
How else did we get this smart? We have evolved to the point of taking evolution into our own hands, and all of this is very much apart of evolution.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
(:



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: NetDiver]
#18970855 - 10/13/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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This sort of thing happens all the time in nature. Evolution is not progression up some ladder. It is heartless and blind, without purpose. It is the result of the drive to reproduce combined with limited resources.
Evolution became progress up some ladder the second we figured out the basics of DNA and genetic engineering, the fact that we evolved the intelligence to do this proves that evolution is progression up a ladder, even if its just survival of the fittest. DNA is minded and conscious.
Take the human being for example, a fine representa of DNA.
The human being is minded and conscious. Since we can consciously and selectively alter our evolution and since we are a product of DNA...
Does this mean that evolution is progress and improvement, and that it is in all actuality; intelligent?
Yes.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18970892 - 10/13/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
A mutation is precisely evolution, even by darwins standards.
Quote:
How else did we get this smart?
Judging by your earlier statement, I am not sure how you include yourself.
One study on genetic variations between different species of Drosophila suggests that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, the result is likely to be harmful, with an estimated 70 percent of amino acid polymorphisms which have damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[4] Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct (revert the mutated sequence back to its original state) mutations.[1]
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hTx
(:



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A beneficial mutation is exactly what it says it is: a mutation in an organism's genome that produces a beneficial effect. Since beneficial is sought after it is likely that beneficial mutants will reproduce, and if a mutation is largely beneficial and successful will result in an evolved organism which separates itself from its original species.
Your quote stating that most mutations are harmful has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, as these mutants would likely die off without reproducing.
You say nothing about beneficial mutations for some reason.
I suggest broadening that narrow view of evolution a bit.
Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation. "Mutations are essential to evolution; they are the raw material of genetic variation. Without mutation, evolution could not occur." http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_01
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18971152 - 10/13/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation.
This is true, but mutation is just one tiny part of evolution.
The vast majority of mutations are not even useful and many are harmful, causing such things as cancer. This is because mutations are random. Even mutations that are beneficial in certain environments can be harmful in other environments. For example, a mutation that confers a beneficial resistance to cold in an animal may also confer susceptibility to warmth. If its a particularly warm year when an animal with that mutation is born, the animal may well die before maturity due to a mutation that in an unusually cold year may allow it to survive.
Even if the mutation is beneficial, the animal has not evolved unless it evades predators long enough to reproduce. Even if it reproduces, the mutation has to be passed onto its offspring as not all of one parent's genes are passed to its offspring. Even if the mutation is passed to the offspring, the mutation may not be passed to subsequent offspring. And so on...
Even when the unlikely string of events passing a beneficial mutation to future generations happens, a change in the selective pressures that made the mutation useful several generations ago may render the mutation useless or even harmful a few generations down the line.
So again, mutation is not evolution. By your logic, a mutation that causes a deadly cancer is evolution. It's not. Educate yourself. This is grade-school biology.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: Diploid]
#18972040 - 10/13/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If mutant humans wipe out the 'normal' humans they will have evolved past homo sapiens into the next sub-species of human.

This is sci-fi 101.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: NetDiver]
#18976653 - 10/14/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's evolution, folks!
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
#18976866 - 10/14/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: A beneficial mutation is exactly what it says it is: a mutation in an organism's genome that produces a beneficial effect. Since beneficial is sought after it is likely that beneficial mutants will reproduce, and if a mutation is largely beneficial and successful will result in an evolved organism which separates itself from its original species.
Your quote stating that most mutations are harmful has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, as these mutants would likely die off without reproducing.
You say nothing about beneficial mutations for some reason.
I suggest broadening that narrow view of evolution a bit.
Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation. "Mutations are essential to evolution; they are the raw material of genetic variation. Without mutation, evolution could not occur." http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_01
"Survival of the fittest" sounds so much better than "that mutant freak just got lucky".
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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"She's a really freaky gene! Super freaky! Yao." ~ Dr. Rick James
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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How would you classify the changes species have undergone with domestication?
Quote:
Evolution does not happen to an individual.
It is not progress nor improvement.
There is no end-game.
If a species that's been domesticated cannot interbreed with it's wild progenitors it would meet two of three of the conditions you said are not part of evolution, or do you not consider domestication a valid evolutionary selector?
There's some controversy on this topic, I'm wondering if you had an opinion on domestication and speciation.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: "She's a really freaky gene! Super freaky! Yao." ~ Dr. Rick James
The kind that is recessive in yo momma?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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