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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18968622 - 10/12/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
While you were writing algorithms and programs about asexual reproduction, others were out having sexual reproduction.  Some even reproduced!

Without the kid, evolution matters not.  The ones that have kids, give themselves a chance at winning the evolutionary game.  The others sit at home on a Friday night on the internet talking about it cause they aren't in the game.

:tongue:





:lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: tribesman]
    #18968669 - 10/12/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Evolutionary geniuses much like cockroaches.



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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
    #18968832 - 10/12/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
2) evolution is progress and improvement. I don't see how you could say it isn't perhaps you could provide some kind of logical evidence but I doubt it since you believe yourself and views to be ineffable.

Here is my logic: a bird evolves a certain type of beak to improve its food intake.



No it doesn't. A bird doesn't do anything besides try to survive and reproduce. If one bird has a mutation which allows it to get more food it will reproduce more, and more of its offspring with the advantageous mutation will survive.

It's totally possible to evolve things which are useful in one situation, but then become terrible when the environment changes. For instance, take the story of the peppered moth. Moths in one area used to be white to blend in with the local birch trees, until a factory was built nearby which started contaminating the air with soot and turning the trees darker. Now the white moths were more likely to be seen by the birds, but moths which were naturally darker colored were less likely to be seen. Eventually almost all the moths in that area are darker colored.

But then, imagine the factory closes down and the trees recover. They become white once again. Now the black moths are screwed.

This sort of thing happens all the time in nature. Evolution is not progression up some ladder. It is heartless and blind, without purpose. It is the result of the drive to reproduce combined with limited resources.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18968884 - 10/12/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How many baby moons you got?




Two.



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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18970793 - 10/13/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

mutations occur ALL the time during the course of an animals lifetime




A mutation is not evolution.



A mutation is precisely evolution, even by darwins standards.

For instance, if you believe that man evolved from ape, it happened because of several surviving beneficial mutations over an extended period of time, resulting in an entirely new species that became apex.

I believe most would agree that intelligence is a favored trait amongst any animal. There is no denying that humans are more intelligent than all other known terrestrial land animals.

It wouldn't surprise me if we found out that a marine species, specifically from the Cetacea genus, was more intelligent than humans. But we rule the land, there is no denying that.

And it happened because of evolution, assuming you believe such a thing is taking place.

How else did we get this smart?
We have evolved to the point of taking evolution into our own hands, and all of this is very much apart of evolution.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: NetDiver]
    #18970855 - 10/13/13 01:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)


This sort of thing happens all the time in nature. Evolution is not progression up some ladder. It is heartless and blind, without purpose. It is the result of the drive to reproduce combined with limited resources.


Evolution became progress up some ladder the second we figured out the basics of DNA and genetic engineering, the fact that we evolved the intelligence to do this proves that evolution is progression up a ladder, even if its just survival of the fittest.  DNA is minded and conscious.

Take the human being for example, a fine representa of DNA.

The human being is minded and conscious. Since we can consciously and selectively alter our evolution and since we are a product of DNA...

Does this mean that evolution is progress and improvement, and that it is in all actuality; intelligent?

Yes.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
    #18970892 - 10/13/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A mutation is precisely evolution, even by darwins standards.




Quote:

How else did we get this smart?




Judging by your earlier statement, I am not sure how you include yourself.

One study on genetic variations between different species of Drosophila suggests that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, the result is likely to be harmful, with an estimated 70 percent of amino acid polymorphisms which have damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[4] Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct (revert the mutated sequence back to its original state) mutations.[1]


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18970940 - 10/13/13 02:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A beneficial mutation is exactly what it says it is: a mutation in an organism's genome that produces a beneficial effect. Since beneficial is sought after it is likely that beneficial mutants will reproduce, and if a mutation is largely beneficial and successful will result in an evolved organism which separates itself from its original species. 

Your quote stating that most mutations are harmful has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, as these mutants would likely die off without reproducing.

You say nothing about beneficial mutations for some reason.

I suggest broadening that narrow view of evolution a bit.

Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation.
"Mutations are essential to evolution; they are the raw material of genetic variation. Without mutation, evolution could not occur."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_01


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
    #18971152 - 10/13/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation.

This is true, but mutation is just one tiny part of evolution.

The vast majority of mutations are not even useful and many are harmful, causing such things as cancer. This is because mutations are random. Even mutations that are beneficial in certain environments can be harmful in other environments. For example, a mutation that confers a beneficial resistance to cold in an animal may also confer susceptibility to warmth. If its a particularly warm year when an animal with that mutation is born, the animal may well die before maturity due to a mutation that in an unusually cold year may allow it to survive.

Even if the mutation is beneficial, the animal has not evolved unless it evades predators long enough to reproduce. Even if it reproduces, the mutation has to be passed onto its offspring as not all of one parent's genes are passed to its offspring. Even if the mutation is passed to the offspring, the mutation may not be passed to subsequent offspring. And so on...

Even when the unlikely string of events passing a beneficial mutation to future generations happens, a change in the selective pressures that made the mutation useful several generations ago may render the mutation useless or even harmful a few generations down the line.

So again, mutation is not evolution. By your logic, a mutation that causes a deadly cancer is evolution. It's not. Educate yourself. This is grade-school biology.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: Diploid]
    #18972040 - 10/13/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If mutant humans wipe out the 'normal' humans they will have evolved past homo sapiens into the next sub-species of human.



This is sci-fi 101. :yesnod:


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18976453 - 10/14/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:yesnod:



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: NetDiver]
    #18976653 - 10/14/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That's evolution, folks!

:feelingfab:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: hTx]
    #18976866 - 10/14/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
A beneficial mutation is exactly what it says it is: a mutation in an organism's genome that produces a beneficial effect. Since beneficial is sought after it is likely that beneficial mutants will reproduce, and if a mutation is largely beneficial and successful will result in an evolved organism which separates itself from its original species. 

Your quote stating that most mutations are harmful has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, as these mutants would likely die off without reproducing.

You say nothing about beneficial mutations for some reason.

I suggest broadening that narrow view of evolution a bit.

Evolution wouldn't happen at all if not for mutation.
"Mutations are essential to evolution; they are the raw material of genetic variation. Without mutation, evolution could not occur."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_01




"Survival of the fittest" sounds so much better than "that mutant freak just got lucky".


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18976895 - 10/14/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"She's a really freaky gene! Super freaky! Yao." ~ Dr. Rick James


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18977526 - 10/14/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

How would you classify the changes species have undergone with domestication?

Quote:

Evolution does not happen to an individual.

It is not progress nor improvement.

There is no end-game.





If a species that's been domesticated cannot interbreed with it's wild progenitors it would meet two of three of the conditions you said are not part of evolution, or do you not consider domestication a valid evolutionary selector? 

There's some controversy on this topic, I'm wondering if you had an opinion on domestication and speciation.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18977599 - 10/14/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
"She's a really freaky gene! Super freaky! Yao." ~ Dr. Rick James




The kind that is recessive in yo momma?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution #9 [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18977628 - 10/14/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:ohgodwhy:


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