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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18944803 - 10/07/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes indeed.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,252
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
#18944941 - 10/07/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would argue that most people do believe determinism has an effect on reality... not that the majority opinion is going to win me an argument.
Anyway, consider a game piece on a board. There are two rules. 1- the piece must move 1 step forward each turn. 2- There's a random chance the piece will move back 1 step.
From this you can see randomness and determinism operating on the same object. We can conclude via determinism that the piece will eventually reach the end of the board. We can conclude via randomness that it's not possible to determine when the piece will reach the edge.
Neither one on it's own can produce the reality we experience. If one of them could we would call it a unified theory.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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teknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
#18947574 - 10/07/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The model you describe is just that, a model, it doesn't necessarily reflect the universe. Nor does it give evidence that the universe is predetermined, it is only assuming it before hand, and modeled in the same manner.
So of course a program that is never truly random is going to be predictable, all you need to do is reverse engineer the random number generator. Which may appear to be random, but it isn't really.
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Rahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18947697 - 10/08/13 12:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's a model but it shows both can work together in a system. The universe is neither predetermined nor random. It assumes functions of both and this has been proven out in theory by a number of people but none of them have described a unified model. You seem to be suggesting you have.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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teknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
#18962840 - 10/11/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's modeled in a computer which is predetermined and only emulating randomness, rather than being random.
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Rahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18963224 - 10/11/13 10:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your replies are the best evidence for determinism.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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teknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
#18963322 - 10/11/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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How?
I just repeated the same thing I already said, which had already defeated the argument you posted after what I had said. So I repeat the same thing in a different way in hopes that you will understand the second time around.
Because to post a previously defeated argument only shows your lack of understanding.
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Rahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18963381 - 10/11/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It was a joke made half seriously. You haven't defeated any arguments except in your own mind. You reply selectively and ignore information you cannot refute. Not worth the correspondence. You're like a broken record dude.
See you on the other side.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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teknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
#18963394 - 10/11/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, I defeated your analogy and showed how it is false. So as for your analogy, that you tried to rinse and repeat, is shown to be false and defeated.
Your position may remain intact, but that's likely because you like to keep it as yours and consider it as yours, rather than just a position.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18964326 - 10/11/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You already know what you're going to do, subconsciously, for you have been the same inside all your life
but sometimes you change what you do although it is hard
I think much is predetermined, but it might not be everything seems possible to change temporarily/permanently, but maybe you didn't really change if you were able to do that
maybe you had just forgotten yourself and therefore lived differently temporarily
I like the 'God doesn't play dice' einstein quote, fits my experience not much of a believer in QM/chaos ruling the universe (everything being a probability) I think much happens for a reason, there is a reason for everything, no coincidences in the universe I see
In the end it is just personal belief :-) noone can say if free will is an illusion I like jungs Archetypes discussion.... how did we get programmed early in our lives... have we changed during our lives?
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teknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
#18964444 - 10/11/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Einstein was obviously wrong about that. I prefer what Bohr said which is "Stop telling god what to do." Because if there is a god, he is obviously playing dice.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
#18964481 - 10/11/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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:-)
I like QM, it's quite beautiful and quite accurate for a statistical model....
but I just can't help thinking newtonian  don't see any coincidences... all choices we have already made
I think QM describes reality more than just what the "copenhagen interpretation" says (applied only on small scales) everything is connected, everything is created by observing, you are everywhere/everything
but with that... still don't believe in coincidences
Edited by lessismore (10/11/13 03:23 PM)
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hTx
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
#18965531 - 10/11/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Example of free will:
Punch someone in face for no reason.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: hTx]
#18966678 - 10/12/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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