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Invisibleelax420
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Economics
    #18960052 - 10/10/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know if i should post this here or the Money forum but this is more of a philosophical question so its going here.
________


What are your views on economics? What schools of thought do you subscribe to(Marxist, Classical, Keynesian, or some other thing)?

Seems like most of you guys would be very anti Keynesian by the nature of this site alone.


Im hardly an economist but the more I learn about Keynesian economics the more i like it.

for the lols


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #18960464 - 10/10/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Keynsian economics is an abomination of a pyramid scheme designed for power hungry communist / fascist statists and greedy bankers.

I like the Austrian school of economics, it makes a lot more sense and its not designed for menevolant purposes like keynsian economics.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960472 - 10/10/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a keynes vs hayek battle you might like.



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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18960484 - 10/10/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would have liked to see how Marxism turned out if it was never adopted by socialists as communism. It was never that specifically identified as being something that should be government controlled by Karl Marx. It was simply a theory of economics on how things could be distributed more evenly with less emphasis on who works harder being defined by a corporate heirarchy and more so by who actually works harder.

Fascinating concept


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960508 - 10/10/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you live in a society of unicorns and ents


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960523 - 10/10/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18960537 - 10/10/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I work 48 hours a week. My hourly pay is simply a draw. Also I need to keep an apg in sales of $50k minimum a month(which isnt a big deal) just to keep my job. I can have whatever fucking opinion I want.

If people make a steadily hour pay no matter what they should have to work for it. If they feel unreasobably paid they should voice out about it. Shit, maybe everyone should get paid on bonus then theres no more confusion about what a standard wage is. If the company does well EVERYONE gets a bonus if the company does bad NO ONE gets paid. You think its pandamonium now? Wait until that shit kicks in and EVERYONE has to think about what they work for, itll REALLY change things :lol:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960556 - 10/10/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960582 - 10/10/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That shit has been there all along.  Problem is we like to pretend in a liberal unicorn la la land that they aren't thinking that keynsian fakeonomics can paper over cold realities and that economics don't need to follow the laws of physics and finance.

all the while the evil bankers and political cronies grow stronger and wealthier as more and more of the economy is surrendered into the control of their dirty fascist hands.

I wish fiscal liberals would realize how their pro spending policies empowers the bankers, politicians and fascist corporate elite.  Its you damned liberals who are giving all the power to the bankers and fascist corporate cronies!


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960634 - 10/10/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?





Bullshit.  Just working does not necissarily produce anything of value.

you can work really hard rolling a giant boulder around in a circle but you will not produce anything of economic value.

person #1 rolls rocks in circles all day.

person #2 farms food all day.

which person produces more things of economic and societal value?  Which person would you be more likely to want to trade with?  Which person fills more demands of society?

obviously person #2

To produce value you need to work at producings things that are demanded by society and the better you do so the more you are rewarded.  You gain wealth and so does society.

with communist labour theory of value the person who rolls rocka all day could be paid the same or more than the farmer even though he produced nothing of value for society.  There is no incentive to fill the demands of society and the economy suffers.  Money may be abundant but real value is not as readily produced.  People would rather work hard at jacking off all day than farming if it pays the same.  No one produces food anymore.  Bad for society, communism is stupid.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960641 - 10/10/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Here's a keynes vs hayek battle you might like.






Great post, I loved it.


Im still a Keynesian :shrug: Hayek just seems classical econ, invisible hand lasiez faire shit.



Marxism is pure fantasy, it will never work, or even be possible. Equality doesn't exist and never will, in that video shins posted it said Keynes didnt account for human nature (which seems like the go to attack statement against an economic philosophy :lol:), Marx certainly did not. Humans by nature are greedy and self motivated.

Guess which political ideology i adhere to



I dont see why the strong shouldn't rule over the weak honestly :shrug:

Shins stop using communist and fascist as interchangeable insults, they are not.....
nor are they insults :smilingpuppy:

Plus your boulder story is just stolen from Milton Friedman.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960667 - 10/10/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?





Bullshit.  Just working does not necissarily produce anything of value.






Fucking spot on:thumbup:


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18960679 - 10/10/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960706 - 10/10/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Human evolution in the physical sense is long over.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960774 - 10/10/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.





So much is wrong with this post my dude.  Communism means collective ownership and an equal society, fascism is state ownership and a rigid social class structure.


The west's economic system at the moment is called Welfare Capitalism, and yes the weak are being artificially supported.

The East's (russia, china) economic system is State Capitalism, which totally kicks ass if i may add :lol:


Lasiez-faire has its own problems man, especially if you are so worried about being dominated by a ruling class.


Why im arguing for Keynesian, is why not use our smartest people to change nature, like how we do with Biotech and computing and shit?


Like Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead. Why not live hard and fast? If china wants to assume our debt to build ghost towns to artificially stimulate their economy, lol go for it dudes.
_____

Holy shit zappa you just said Evolution is over :huxleyfacepalm:

Evolution by definition is a change in allele frequency. Explain mutations if evolution is over.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18960783 - 10/10/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I find it ironic when liberals talk about evolution vs creationism then shout down free markets.

keynsian economics vs free market economics is basically creationism vs evolution but in an economic sense.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960814 - 10/10/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Humans are not eq ual communism is a myth.  You cannot distribute resources equally without the state owning everything hence why delusions of communism lead to evil people taking advantage of those powers granted by said delusions and form an authorative fascist state.

the USA is fascist no doubt.  Welfare capitalism is an oxymoron of a term and makes no sense.

the monetary system does not allow for real capitalism, DO NOT MISTAKE WHAT WE HAVE FOR CAPITALISM!  what we have is fascism that has been empowered by well meaning but stupid and delusional socialists.  They have empowered government and then fascists siezed the state power structure created by socialists as they always do.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18961077 - 10/10/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
I find it ironic when liberals talk about evolution vs creationism then shout down free markets.

keynsian economics vs free market economics is basically creationism vs evolution but in an economic sense.





What the fuck does liberal even mean?

Like a classical liberal(*cough adam smith *cough)?  i already told you im a classical realist in political ideology.



Quote:

Shins said:
Humans are not eq ual communism is a myth.  You cannot distribute resources equally without the state owning everything hence why delusions of communism lead to evil people taking advantage of those powers granted by said delusions and form an authorative fascist state.

the USA is fascist no doubt.  Welfare capitalism is an oxymoron of a term and makes no sense.

the monetary system does not allow for real capitalism, DO NOT MISTAKE WHAT WE HAVE FOR CAPITALISM!  what we have is fascism that has been empowered by well meaning but stupid and delusional socialists.  They have empowered government and then fascists siezed the state power structure created by socialists as they always do.




You are really blind if you see everything that black and white man. Its not always X vs Y things blend together. You sound really young, and im still pretty young too but shit :lol:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #18961093 - 10/10/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.





So much is wrong with this post my dude.  Communism means collective ownership and an equal society, fascism is state ownership and a rigid social class structure.




Would you please explain to the class what the difference is between state ownership and collective ownership?  We are all on the edge of our seats for this gem
Quote:




The west's economic system at the moment is called Welfare Capitalism, and yes the weak are being artificially supported.




Not exactly but there certainly is quite a bit of cronyism
Quote:



The East's (russia, china) economic system is State Capitalism, which totally kicks ass if i may add :lol:


  Russia and China do not have the same system.  What grade are you in?
Quote:




Lasiez-faire has its own problems man, especially if you are so worried about being dominated by a ruling class.


Under Laissez faire there is no ruling class.
Quote:




Why im arguing for Keynesian, is why not use our smartest people to change nature, like how we do with Biotech and computing and shit?




Really?  Do you want the smartest people to manipulate you into wanting what they want you to want?
Quote:




Like Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead. Why not live hard and fast? If china wants to assume our debt to build ghost towns to artificially stimulate their economy, lol go for it dudes.




All these children bleat about China.  They hold about 10% of our debt.  The Anmerican citizen holds the vast majority of it.  And if we can fleece China, so what?  Fuck 'em.  They're assholes anyway.
Quote:


_____

Holy shit zappa you just said Evolution is over :huxleyfacepalm:




I said human physical evolution is over.  Would you like to dispute that?  I'll go any time you want.
Quote:



Evolution by definition is a change in allele frequency. Explain mutations if evolution is over.




Evolution is effected by premature death before reproduction of defective expressions of the genome.  This does not happen anymore to any extent.  Your turn.  Let me encapsulate that for you.  Death before reproduction is the engine of evolution.  That is not a feature of humans anymore.  We have legal debates about the rights of downsies to have babies.  Now I have no problem with that but it is a clear sign that we are not physically evolving.

I think you're a bit out of your league.


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OfflineUltra-Imperialist
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18961126 - 10/10/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"The less true Democracy is, the more True Marxism is." - Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies

When a society has no welfare programs, no safety net, no social mobility i.e. laissez-faire, an underclass is created leading to a revolutionary situation. However what Lenin never really considered was the role of Free Will, Choice and Democracy. A Regulated Market, made to benefit mankind by reform.

Advocates of Laissez-faire are Radicals and Extremists.
That by itself does not necessarily refute their position, however almost all of history has shown that applying radical policies to the economy almost always leads to negative collateral effects and widespread harm.


--------------------
"I have just called President Obama to congratulate him on his victory. His supporters and his campaign also deserve congratulations." - Mitt Romney, on the eve of his and his follower's Epic Defeat

Thanks Mitt. :cool:


Edited by Ultra-Imperialist (10/10/13 07:38 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: Ultra-Imperialist] * 1
    #18961197 - 10/10/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"When a society has no welfare programs, no safety net, no social mobility i.e. laissez-faire, an underclass is created leading to a revolutionary situation."

Ummmm when a society has welfare programs, a safety net, social mobility an underclass is created leading to a complacent situation.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18961308 - 10/10/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Holy shit when you qoute like that it makes it hella hard to answer everything you ask bro. Surprisingly we are pretty much on the same page on this debate though.


Under the ideal communist state (collective rule) that has never existed and never will, the people will control the means of production, and before you come at me with some communist bullshit there is a direct quote from Stalin saying the State will control the heights of industry and leave the rest to the commissars.

State ownership, like National Socialism in Germany, means the State (ruling class) controls the means of production for the benefit of greater _______

I would argue cronyism and nepotism happens in any system, it most certainly happened in the USSR

Bullshit there is always a ruling class. Lasiez faire is pretty much how feudal lords lost their power, the merchants got more powerful than their lords and brought the whole system down.

No, but why not fight for the winning side, its all Machiavelli dude

We agree on that about china.


You wanna talk about Evolution make your own damn thread.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18961310 - 10/10/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
"When a society has no welfare programs, no safety net, no social mobility i.e. laissez-faire, an underclass is created leading to a revolutionary situation."

Ummmm when a society has welfare programs, a safety net, social mobility an underclass is created leading to a complacent situation.




:lolsy:

That sociology degree is finally paying off

Too argue with the guy you are quoting, its not always the poor that revolt.


Look at Egypt the Middle class rose up, from a pretty peachy situation, now everybody is fucked over. American revolution was started by like the elite of the elite originally.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18961399 - 10/10/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?





Bullshit.  Just working does not necissarily produce anything of value.

you can work really hard rolling a giant boulder around in a circle but you will not produce anything of economic value.

person #1 rolls rocks in circles all day.

person #2 farms food all day.

which person produces more things of economic and societal value?  Which person would you be more likely to want to trade with?  Which person fills more demands of society?

obviously person #2

To produce value you need to work at producings things that are demanded by society and the better you do so the more you are rewarded.  You gain wealth and so does society.

with communist labour theory of value the person who rolls rocka all day could be paid the same or more than the farmer even though he produced nothing of value for society.  There is no incentive to fill the demands of society and the economy suffers.  Money may be abundant but real value is not as readily produced.  People would rather work hard at jacking off all day than farming if it pays the same.  No one produces food anymore.  Bad for society, communism is stupid.




Im not understanding your argument at all, if there is one. You are trying to compare a person rolling around a boulder all day with labor, as though thats an actual job someone would require. What a useless statement. Now you compare this with someone who drives a tractor.

Is the person who drives the tractor someone who is highly skilled and well paid? Or is a tractor driver a low paid easily replaceable laborer? Where is the validity of your argument? You are saying a person who rolls a rock around is not caught up with technology? No, a person who rolls a rock around is doing nothing. That is not a comparison for labor, which without its existence, many goods and services wouldnt exist.

Would a house be built with machines assuming no concrete is used?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18961431 - 10/10/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Hes trying to make a reference to the New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. What he is failing to mention is that shit hella worked :lolsy:


Keynesian econ is styling on all you libertarian boys so far.


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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18961462 - 10/10/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The value of labor depends on supply and demand.  If anyone can do a job that job isn't going to pay shit, unless its so fucking hard that no one is willing to do it. 

If a job takes a skill that few people have or can acquire with a great deal of effort, it is going to pay more.

That's why the talk of '6 years in college and a master's degree--and he can't find a job. 

A degree in liberal arts where some person does nothing but talk about things usually doesn't pay shit--because anyone can talk shit.

A degree in engineering usually pays a lot more--because few people have that skill.  But there might be a case when industry needs, say 10,000 Electrical Engineers a year, and there are 50,000 available--what happens?  Wages drop.

That, by the way, is the whole idea behind 'guest worker' and H1B visas--force wages down by bringing in cheap foreign labor. 

And fucking the US citizens.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18961474 - 10/10/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What is the difference between capitalistic dictatorship and communist dictatorship? Right now we have a system where the entire country has to pay for one persons doctor bill. Wait is that it? That doesnt sound so bad

What we really have is a system where the entire country has to pay taxes so health insurance companies get everyones money because we are forced to.

Is there really a big difference?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlineqman
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18961516 - 10/10/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Hes trying to make a reference to the New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. What he is failing to mention is that shit hella worked :lolsy:


Keynesian econ is styling on all you libertarian boys so far.




"New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. ....that shit hella worked"

Do you really believe this?  Why not send out this blueprint to Africa and watch economic prosperity take off before our eyes?  :smilingpuppy:


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Invisibleelax420
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Posts: 15,536
Re: Economics [Re: qman]
    #18961567 - 10/10/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

elax420 said:
Hes trying to make a reference to the New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. What he is failing to mention is that shit hella worked :lolsy:


Keynesian econ is styling on all you libertarian boys so far.




"New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. ....that shit hella worked"

Do you really believe this?  Why not send out this blueprint to Africa and watch economic prosperity take off before our eyes?  :smilingpuppy:




Go on tell me how the new deal failed




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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18961651 - 10/10/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Keynsian "stimulus" creates a short term boom but also a greater lasting bust.  The money junkies need to keep the debt rolling to continue the game of musicsl chairs.  They get to cycle the money and create compound inflation which leeches your wages and savings into their cycle.  If the debt ceiling is not raised and the cycle of exponential debt shoud shop, catastrophic deflation and high interest rates.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Offlineqman
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18961699 - 10/10/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

elax420 said:
Hes trying to make a reference to the New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. What he is failing to mention is that shit hella worked :lolsy:


Keynesian econ is styling on all you libertarian boys so far.




"New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. ....that shit hella worked"

Do you really believe this?  Why not send out this blueprint to Africa and watch economic prosperity take off before our eyes?  :smilingpuppy:




Go on tell me how the new deal failed







If you are insinuating that the "New Deal" ended the Great Depression and was a proven economic success, that would be incorrect.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: qman] * 1
    #18962094 - 10/10/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well thats like your opinion man
:thedude:

Now back it up.


you cant just say shit like that with no supporting evidence whatsoever



What are you Shins :smilingpuppy:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18963237 - 10/11/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
"When a society has no welfare programs, no safety net, no social mobility i.e. laissez-faire, an underclass is created leading to a revolutionary situation."

Ummmm when a society has welfare programs, a safety net, social mobility an underclass is created leading to a complacent situation.




:lolsy:

That sociology degree is finally paying off

Too argue with the guy you are quoting, its not always the poor that revolt.


Look at Egypt the Middle class rose up, from a pretty peachy situation, now everybody is fucked over. American revolution was started by like the elite of the elite originally.





I don't have a sociology degree.  And as revolting as I find the poor they are, in fact, mostly complacent.  The government has bought them off with my money.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18963244 - 10/11/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Hes trying to make a reference to the New Deal, where the government paid people to perform menial tasks. What he is failing to mention is that shit hella worked :lolsy:




Uh no.  It prolonged the bad times
Quote:




Keynesian econ is styling on all you libertarian boys so far.




Uh no.


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OfflineMemories
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18963512 - 10/11/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Human evolution in the physical sense is long over.




That is not true. Evolution is always taking place.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18963550 - 10/11/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Well thats like your opinion man
:thedude:

Now back it up.


you cant just say shit like that with no supporting evidence whatsoever



What are you Shins :smilingpuppy:




The "New Deal" did not change a dam thing in the 30's, and if it wasn't for WW2, the economic malaise would have continued for another decade.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: qman]
    #18963631 - 10/11/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Holy shit :huxleyfacepalm:





Yall be blind as Ray Charles


The war didnt start till the end of 1941, the new deal started in 1933 (when the GDP started to rise again :lol:) even still saying the war saved us is just another case for gvmnt spending

:themoreyouknow:


The fact none of you guys have brought up stagflation as a case against Keynes lets me know you just listen to whatever the ultra right talking heads tell yall.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18963679 - 10/11/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Holy shit :huxleyfacepalm:





Yall be blind as Ray Charles


The war didnt start till the end of 1941, the new deal started in 1933 (when the GDP started to rise again :lol:) even still saying the war saved us is just another case for gvmnt spending

:themoreyouknow:


The fact none of you guys have brought up stagflation as a case against Keynes lets me know you just listen to whatever the ultra right talking heads tell yall.



Let's see, Stevie.  The New Deal started in 1933 and 6 years later the economy had recovered to just about exactly where it was 10 years before.  Yep, real humdinger of a success.  Even a dead cat will bounce if you drop it from high enough.

I didn't say the war saved anything.  The New Deal hampered recovery that would have been far more robust without it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window


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Offlineqman
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18963738 - 10/11/13 12:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Holy shit :huxleyfacepalm:





Yall be blind as Ray Charles


The war didnt start till the end of 1941, the new deal started in 1933 (when the GDP started to rise again :lol:) even still saying the war saved us is just another case for gvmnt spending

:themoreyouknow:


The fact none of you guys have brought up stagflation as a case against Keynes lets me know you just listen to whatever the ultra right talking heads tell yall.




Thank you for proving my point, by 1939-40 the US economy just started to pick up from massive military orders from Europe, unemployment was still over 15% at that time.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: qman]
    #18964082 - 10/11/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Qman do you understand what a depression actually means?

2 or more years of economic down turn, looks like the New deal did exactly what it was supposed to, stabilize the economy.

You do know that unemployment was at 25% during a good portion of the depression, and WORLD gdp dropped by 66%? I didnt prove your point for shit, those military orders were filled by the fed and massive government spending anyway.


Zap

first what the fuck is stevie, Stevie wonder? i dont get these pop culture references from the 50's bruhh i aint that old. Those statements tell me you haven't looked into the history or economics of the period at all. Even ardent classical economists were doubting the "invisible hand" and had no explanation for wtf happened. You are just playing the revisionist card now. I go to a school that is so conservative people boo and scoff in class when you mention FDR yet even they acknowledge the importance of the New Deal. Seriously even the most conservative of professors agree with that statement. What business school did you go to, Rush Limbaugh's school of economics?


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Offlineakalais
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18964120 - 10/11/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Laissez faire was just another name to subjugate the underclass, like social darwinism.

Newspeak everywhere.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: akalais]
    #18964161 - 10/11/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Stevie Wonder was quite big in the seventies, which is also before you were born.

I'm a Milton Friedman guy.  What school are you failing in?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18964242 - 10/11/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"New Deal where the government paid people to perform menial tasks.. that shit hella worked." 

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/ask-professor-did-new-deal-end-great-depression

"If you excludes those in governmental work programs from the unemployment rate, it remains above the 1929 figure until the 1940's."

"GNP does not distinguish between productive and unproductive expenditures..because we are paying people for unproductive work such as digging holes and filling them up again, that really isn't recovery."

"Total hours worked in 1940 were 6% LESS than in 1929."

elax, just stop with the conservative/right wing/Rush Limbaugh nonsense, if anyone has read my opinions on economic issues, they would know I don't subscribe into any one ideology.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18964265 - 10/11/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Stevie Wonder was quite big in the seventies, which is also before you were born.

I'm a Milton Friedman guy.  What school are you failing in?




Nice one psych major, wouldn't you like to know NSA.

Im actually in really good standing with the business school.


Ya i dont know much about reaganomics besides that when anybody says that word in serious discussion it causes people to laugh.

Reagan ran a pretty fucking huge deficit, and to cut Government spending what did he do? Increase military spending, fucking :burke:

Is their a more worthless way to spend government money? (im in no way opposed to the military) Oh ya you can sell those rusted out bombs at a loss to the taliban just to see them used against you 20 years later:rofl:

___

good for you Qman, im with you on that(not adhering to strictly one ideology, mainly talking to zappa about that though).

I still dont see how the hours worked after the greatest economic depression being less than what it was in a huge boom economy matter? Point was to reverse the downturn and stabilize the economy, which it did. People weren't spending money dude, they had to get the money flowing somehow.

The new deal wasn't entirely worthless work either, huge public works projects went into place (hoover dam anyone).


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #18965256 - 10/11/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Stevie Wonder was quite big in the seventies, which is also before you were born.

I'm a Milton Friedman guy.  What school are you failing in?




Nice one psych major, wouldn't you like to know NSA.

Im actually in really good standing with the business school.




Are you really worried that somebody could identify you if you named your school?  I just find the concept that there is a conservative academy and a conservative student base of 20 year olds incomprehensible.  Where is this heaven, I want to know?
Quote:




Ya i dont know much about reaganomics besides that when anybody says that word in serious discussion it causes people to laugh.




Did I mention Reagan?  I said Milton Friedman.  Look him up.
Quote:



Reagan ran a pretty fucking huge deficit, and to cut Government spending what did he do? Increase military spending, fucking :burke:




Reagan had a completely Dem controlled Congress.  What has the alleged conservative academy you attend taught you about the power of the purse in the US?
Quote:



Is their a more worthless way to spend government money? (im in no way opposed to the military) Oh ya you can sell those rusted out bombs at a loss to the taliban just to see them used against you 20 years later:rofl:




The inability of the USSR to keep up with the arms race is a huge factor in why it collapsed.  Do you see the collapse of the Soviet State as a good thing or a bad thing?
Quote:



___

good for you Qman, im with you on that(not adhering to strictly one ideology, mainly talking to zappa about that though).


I still dont see how the hours worked after the greatest economic depression being less than what it was in a huge boom economy matter? Point was to reverse the downturn and stabilize the economy, which it did. People weren't spending money dude, they had to get the money flowing somehow.

The new deal wasn't entirely worthless work either, huge public works projects went into place (hoover dam anyone).




Whether it was entirely worthless is beside the point.  An enormous amount of money was extracted from sane useful production and spent on much that was not.  It retarded a meaningful recovery that should have and would have been much quicker and better without it.


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