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Invisibleelax420
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Economics
    #18960052 - 10/10/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know if i should post this here or the Money forum but this is more of a philosophical question so its going here.
________


What are your views on economics? What schools of thought do you subscribe to(Marxist, Classical, Keynesian, or some other thing)?

Seems like most of you guys would be very anti Keynesian by the nature of this site alone.


Im hardly an economist but the more I learn about Keynesian economics the more i like it.

for the lols


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #18960464 - 10/10/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Keynsian economics is an abomination of a pyramid scheme designed for power hungry communist / fascist statists and greedy bankers.

I like the Austrian school of economics, it makes a lot more sense and its not designed for menevolant purposes like keynsian economics.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960472 - 10/10/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a keynes vs hayek battle you might like.



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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18960484 - 10/10/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would have liked to see how Marxism turned out if it was never adopted by socialists as communism. It was never that specifically identified as being something that should be government controlled by Karl Marx. It was simply a theory of economics on how things could be distributed more evenly with less emphasis on who works harder being defined by a corporate heirarchy and more so by who actually works harder.

Fascinating concept


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960508 - 10/10/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you live in a society of unicorns and ents


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960523 - 10/10/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18960537 - 10/10/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I work 48 hours a week. My hourly pay is simply a draw. Also I need to keep an apg in sales of $50k minimum a month(which isnt a big deal) just to keep my job. I can have whatever fucking opinion I want.

If people make a steadily hour pay no matter what they should have to work for it. If they feel unreasobably paid they should voice out about it. Shit, maybe everyone should get paid on bonus then theres no more confusion about what a standard wage is. If the company does well EVERYONE gets a bonus if the company does bad NO ONE gets paid. You think its pandamonium now? Wait until that shit kicks in and EVERYONE has to think about what they work for, itll REALLY change things :lol:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960556 - 10/10/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960582 - 10/10/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That shit has been there all along.  Problem is we like to pretend in a liberal unicorn la la land that they aren't thinking that keynsian fakeonomics can paper over cold realities and that economics don't need to follow the laws of physics and finance.

all the while the evil bankers and political cronies grow stronger and wealthier as more and more of the economy is surrendered into the control of their dirty fascist hands.

I wish fiscal liberals would realize how their pro spending policies empowers the bankers, politicians and fascist corporate elite.  Its you damned liberals who are giving all the power to the bankers and fascist corporate cronies!


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: imachavel]
    #18960634 - 10/10/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?





Bullshit.  Just working does not necissarily produce anything of value.

you can work really hard rolling a giant boulder around in a circle but you will not produce anything of economic value.

person #1 rolls rocks in circles all day.

person #2 farms food all day.

which person produces more things of economic and societal value?  Which person would you be more likely to want to trade with?  Which person fills more demands of society?

obviously person #2

To produce value you need to work at producings things that are demanded by society and the better you do so the more you are rewarded.  You gain wealth and so does society.

with communist labour theory of value the person who rolls rocka all day could be paid the same or more than the farmer even though he produced nothing of value for society.  There is no incentive to fill the demands of society and the economy suffers.  Money may be abundant but real value is not as readily produced.  People would rather work hard at jacking off all day than farming if it pays the same.  No one produces food anymore.  Bad for society, communism is stupid.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960641 - 10/10/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Here's a keynes vs hayek battle you might like.






Great post, I loved it.


Im still a Keynesian :shrug: Hayek just seems classical econ, invisible hand lasiez faire shit.



Marxism is pure fantasy, it will never work, or even be possible. Equality doesn't exist and never will, in that video shins posted it said Keynes didnt account for human nature (which seems like the go to attack statement against an economic philosophy :lol:), Marx certainly did not. Humans by nature are greedy and self motivated.

Guess which political ideology i adhere to



I dont see why the strong shouldn't rule over the weak honestly :shrug:

Shins stop using communist and fascist as interchangeable insults, they are not.....
nor are they insults :smilingpuppy:

Plus your boulder story is just stolen from Milton Friedman.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960667 - 10/10/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Working hard is not the way to prosperity, working smart is.  I don't care how hard you work rolling a boulder around in a circle all day, if it does not produce economic value in any way its useless.

labour theory of value is stupid.  Wealth is created by producing things that fill demands,  not by "working hard" alone.

the thing about marxism as well is that it needs a large authoritarian stste to actually enforce it so the whole thing is an oxymoron for morons.




Working hard produces things. The more labor someone does, the more trees chopped down, the more wood to build houses.

Your way of thinking is what Id rather get away from in wide perspective economics. Labor is essential to trade. Until everything is done with machines. If talking takes the most skill why cant people sell air?





Bullshit.  Just working does not necissarily produce anything of value.






Fucking spot on:thumbup:


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420]
    #18960679 - 10/10/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960706 - 10/10/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Human evolution in the physical sense is long over.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960774 - 10/10/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.





So much is wrong with this post my dude.  Communism means collective ownership and an equal society, fascism is state ownership and a rigid social class structure.


The west's economic system at the moment is called Welfare Capitalism, and yes the weak are being artificially supported.

The East's (russia, china) economic system is State Capitalism, which totally kicks ass if i may add :lol:


Lasiez-faire has its own problems man, especially if you are so worried about being dominated by a ruling class.


Why im arguing for Keynesian, is why not use our smartest people to change nature, like how we do with Biotech and computing and shit?


Like Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead. Why not live hard and fast? If china wants to assume our debt to build ghost towns to artificially stimulate their economy, lol go for it dudes.
_____

Holy shit zappa you just said Evolution is over :huxleyfacepalm:

Evolution by definition is a change in allele frequency. Explain mutations if evolution is over.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18960783 - 10/10/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I find it ironic when liberals talk about evolution vs creationism then shout down free markets.

keynsian economics vs free market economics is basically creationism vs evolution but in an economic sense.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18960814 - 10/10/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Humans are not eq ual communism is a myth.  You cannot distribute resources equally without the state owning everything hence why delusions of communism lead to evil people taking advantage of those powers granted by said delusions and form an authorative fascist state.

the USA is fascist no doubt.  Welfare capitalism is an oxymoron of a term and makes no sense.

the monetary system does not allow for real capitalism, DO NOT MISTAKE WHAT WE HAVE FOR CAPITALISM!  what we have is fascism that has been empowered by well meaning but stupid and delusional socialists.  They have empowered government and then fascists siezed the state power structure created by socialists as they always do.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Economics [Re: Shins]
    #18961077 - 10/10/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
I find it ironic when liberals talk about evolution vs creationism then shout down free markets.

keynsian economics vs free market economics is basically creationism vs evolution but in an economic sense.





What the fuck does liberal even mean?

Like a classical liberal(*cough adam smith *cough)?  i already told you im a classical realist in political ideology.



Quote:

Shins said:
Humans are not eq ual communism is a myth.  You cannot distribute resources equally without the state owning everything hence why delusions of communism lead to evil people taking advantage of those powers granted by said delusions and form an authorative fascist state.

the USA is fascist no doubt.  Welfare capitalism is an oxymoron of a term and makes no sense.

the monetary system does not allow for real capitalism, DO NOT MISTAKE WHAT WE HAVE FOR CAPITALISM!  what we have is fascism that has been empowered by well meaning but stupid and delusional socialists.  They have empowered government and then fascists siezed the state power structure created by socialists as they always do.




You are really blind if you see everything that black and white man. Its not always X vs Y things blend together. You sound really young, and im still pretty young too but shit :lol:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Economics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #18961093 - 10/10/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Communism and socialism both lead to fascism because they need an authorative state to control corporations and enforce it.


I believe the strong should prosper as well, evolution anyone?

If The strong are dragged down by the weak we stint our evolution.

lassa fair economics are naturalistic, the fact of reality is that those who can adapt prosper and those who cannot die.

If We try to subsidise the weak artificially we all die.





So much is wrong with this post my dude.  Communism means collective ownership and an equal society, fascism is state ownership and a rigid social class structure.




Would you please explain to the class what the difference is between state ownership and collective ownership?  We are all on the edge of our seats for this gem
Quote:




The west's economic system at the moment is called Welfare Capitalism, and yes the weak are being artificially supported.




Not exactly but there certainly is quite a bit of cronyism
Quote:



The East's (russia, china) economic system is State Capitalism, which totally kicks ass if i may add :lol:


  Russia and China do not have the same system.  What grade are you in?
Quote:




Lasiez-faire has its own problems man, especially if you are so worried about being dominated by a ruling class.


Under Laissez faire there is no ruling class.
Quote:




Why im arguing for Keynesian, is why not use our smartest people to change nature, like how we do with Biotech and computing and shit?




Really?  Do you want the smartest people to manipulate you into wanting what they want you to want?
Quote:




Like Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead. Why not live hard and fast? If china wants to assume our debt to build ghost towns to artificially stimulate their economy, lol go for it dudes.




All these children bleat about China.  They hold about 10% of our debt.  The Anmerican citizen holds the vast majority of it.  And if we can fleece China, so what?  Fuck 'em.  They're assholes anyway.
Quote:


_____

Holy shit zappa you just said Evolution is over :huxleyfacepalm:




I said human physical evolution is over.  Would you like to dispute that?  I'll go any time you want.
Quote:



Evolution by definition is a change in allele frequency. Explain mutations if evolution is over.




Evolution is effected by premature death before reproduction of defective expressions of the genome.  This does not happen anymore to any extent.  Your turn.  Let me encapsulate that for you.  Death before reproduction is the engine of evolution.  That is not a feature of humans anymore.  We have legal debates about the rights of downsies to have babies.  Now I have no problem with that but it is a clear sign that we are not physically evolving.

I think you're a bit out of your league.


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OfflineUltra-Imperialist
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Re: Economics [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18961126 - 10/10/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"The less true Democracy is, the more True Marxism is." - Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies

When a society has no welfare programs, no safety net, no social mobility i.e. laissez-faire, an underclass is created leading to a revolutionary situation. However what Lenin never really considered was the role of Free Will, Choice and Democracy. A Regulated Market, made to benefit mankind by reform.

Advocates of Laissez-faire are Radicals and Extremists.
That by itself does not necessarily refute their position, however almost all of history has shown that applying radical policies to the economy almost always leads to negative collateral effects and widespread harm.


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"I have just called President Obama to congratulate him on his victory. His supporters and his campaign also deserve congratulations." - Mitt Romney, on the eve of his and his follower's Epic Defeat

Thanks Mitt. :cool:


Edited by Ultra-Imperialist (10/10/13 07:38 PM)


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