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Offlinebulipap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959199 - 10/10/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The question makes no sense as data or information is not related to energy.




As science hasn't yet explained everything many believe that energy is the essence of life. Not just the driving force as physics claim but that we, as everything else in our reality solely are energy. As I stated above if we move from one life form to another, it is actually only energy travelling. This energy is information because what is anything without information. The question cannot simply be answered from one single close-minded perspective, but rather from several ones. This is why I won't claim your point of view as being erroneous and "nonsense". Seeing both side of things makes for a good conversation.


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I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959211 - 10/10/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Seems you would rather keep doing non-productive pissing than learn something.

Why not actually look at the statement that I highlighted and attempt to see the error and then reform your initial presentation and maybe we can continue on topic.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959218 - 10/10/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Seems you would rather keep doing non-productive pissing than learn something.

Why not actually look at the statement that I highlighted and attempt to see the error and then reform your initial presentation and maybe we can continue on topic.




:woooaaahhh:

Noooo! Must resort to personalisms


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959220 - 10/10/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

On some things there is no 'both sides'. Energy is either related to information or it is not. This is not like chocolate vs. vanilla. Please present the formula equating energy to information and I will acquiesce.


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Offlinebulipap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959233 - 10/10/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Again you only see it from the physics point of view.

Oh well, I give up as this seems to be pointless.


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I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959261 - 10/10/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Your reasoning on the matter is based solely on what you've gathered via your five senses. There is still a lot more that we don't know because our perceptions are limited, our senses imperfect. [...]




This. What is our consciousness (including memories, thoughts, feelings and the sense of now) does not derive from out brain, but rather from another place? Maybe it's all stored in what we call as our soul?
As this paradigm I read somewhere states, maybe only our physical brain works as a receptor of consciousness, much as a TV set receives the electromagnetic waves we call radio waves. Now if the TV set breaks, of course the TV signal continues. If our brain and body "dies", could the consciousness still not seize to exist?

Nothing in science actually indicates that it couldn't be like this..




I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959266 - 10/10/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Energy has a v-e-r-y specific and well-defined meaning otherwise it is just gibberish that could mean anything whatsoever. How useful is that?


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959288 - 10/10/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Well I have always believed in strict open-mindedness and in the questioning of everything, even to the point of utter exhaustion. Yet my simple statements are often taken the wrong way and stomped upon by the "scientific elite" that run rampant on these forums. You would think a place called Shroomery would be willing to go "out there", but it seems that getting the rocket ship to even leave the station is a task in itself.




Open-mindedness is important, but rationality is more so. If an open-minded idea is presented that can then be utterly demolished with rationality, it is an idea not worth talking about. The whole point of philosophy is to discuss/share ideas that are at the very least rationally plausible. The data in your brain exists physically, in the form of your brain cells. Logically follows that that physical data will not somehow convert to energy, and still contain the data of your experience here.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959295 - 10/10/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Again you only see it from the physics point of view.

Oh well, I give up as this seems to be pointless.




Physics is quite literally everything. EVERYTHING consensus, and real that we perceive in this world is governed by what we call physics. We can't talk about what we don't know because we don't know it. So why even mention it? The only things we know, are the things we perceive with our 5 senses, in this very physical realm. Deal with it.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959299 - 10/10/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, a breath of fresh air. 

:feelingfab:


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Offlinebulipap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959312 - 10/10/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.




Oh yes, very true. All knowledge we have acquired we seemed to have experienced in this realm of our lifetime on this earth. By consciousness I mean, though, that maybe all our knowledge actually gets stored, after we have experienced it here as humans, somewhere else. Maybe in our own individual consciousness? And as we move on after we die, we still carry this knowledge and can process it without the brain. This is a question of what you believe in and I totally understand those who believe that everything is located in the brain which is required to process the information. This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Registered: 05/24/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LSDreams]
    #18959317 - 10/10/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreams said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.




You stop living? You will no longer be able to experience life. Plus it causes others to be sad that you're no longer with them to experience life with.

I dont know about yourself, but there are still questions i need to know the answer to... and if i could live for centuries waiting for the answers to come, that'd be awesome.




Well first of all, accept that those questions, if they are like the questions I have about this place, will never be answered by humans. We are biologically incapable of comprehending such things. That simple. As for no longer being able to experience life.. life isn't some silly willy fun time. It's hard, cruel, indifferent, and quite the bitch. Yes it has it's moments of beauty and utter perfection, but in general "life seems to become one big act of learning to let go". After 80-90 years of it, I get the feeling that I will be quite tired, and quite ready to let go of this extraordinarily insane place.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineMR.Merlin
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959323 - 10/10/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

sadly... matter cannot be displaced nor destroyed.

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.

your saying that it just.... goes away?

all laws of nature say na your wrong =)

(backed by science in this case)


--------------------
Mushroom growing is a hobby, and any thing posted under this account is solely a replication of naturally occurring phenomena done for scientific study and observation, fully within the bounds of federal law.

further more, all things stated on this site by this account are works of fiction. I am attempting to create an alter ego that is totally false to immerse myself in a character for a book.


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Offlinebulipap
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Registered: 08/16/13
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959330 - 10/10/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Of course you have to think rationally in order to propose an idea, but if I believe in something and discuss it in a rational way, how is this wrong? Only because it contradicts with your idea doesn't mean it's irrational.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959331 - 10/10/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MR.Merlin said:

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.





Source?


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Registered: 05/24/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959334 - 10/10/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Quote:

I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.




Oh yes, very true. All knowledge we have acquired we seemed to have experienced in this realm of our lifetime on this earth. By consciousness I mean, though, that maybe all our knowledge actually gets stored, after we have experienced it here as humans, somewhere else. Maybe in our own individual consciousness? And as we move on after we die, we still carry this knowledge and can process it without the brain. This is a question of what you believe in and I totally understand those who believe that everything is located in the brain which is required to process the information. This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.




Your view is interesting, but not so much worth discussing. It is already essentially known that memory is manufactured by the very material brain, correct me if I'm wrong. Knowledge is made up of memories. You have to remember getting burned in order to not touch the stove again. It seems very irrational to me to try to make the knowledge you gain something it's not, in order to escape the fact that  it, and who you are here, will both die. There is no individual consciousness outside of the one you produce for yourself with your memories. That simple.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/10/13 01:11 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959335 - 10/10/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe in our own individual consciousness?



Consciousness is a property of the brain, not a location.

Quote:

This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.



Sorry, but there are not two correct 'views' on this. If you want to posit some external consciousness storage device then present your evidence otherwise there is nothing to discuss.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959388 - 10/10/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Modern physics has discovered one of the greatest things ever discovered, and that is: matter is energy. That is the greatest contribution of Albert Einstein to humanity: e is equal to mc squared, matter is energy. This formula proposes that when a body has a mass, it has a certain amount of energy, even if it is at rest, and does not have any form of potential energy, chemical energy, etc, it still has that amount of energy. As opposed to the Newtonian mechanics in which a massive body could have no energy at all. That is why we often call the mass the rest energy of the body. The E of the formula can be seen as the total energy of the body, which is proportional to the mass only when the body is at rest.

Conversely, a cloud of photons travelling in empty space, with each photon having no rest mass, still have a mass, m, due to their kinetic energy.

This formula also gives the quantatative relation of energy and mass in any process when they transform into each other, such as a nuclear explosion. Then this E could be seen as the energy released when a certain amount of mass m is annihilated, or the energy absorbed to create a certain amount of mass m. In those cases, the energy released(absorbed) equals in quantity to the mass annihilated(created) times the speed of light squared. Eddington, one of the greatest scientists of this age, has said, "We used to think that matter is a thing; now it is no more so. Matter is more like a thought than like a thing."

Existence is energy. Science has discovered that the observed is energy, the object is energy. Down through the ages, at least for five thousand years, it has been known that the other polarity- the subject, the observer, consciousness- is energy.

Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy. Then what is the difference between these three? The difference is only of a different rhythm, different wavelengths, that's all. The body is gross energy functioning in a gross way, in a visible way.

Mind is a little more subtle, but still not too subtle, because you can close your eyes and you can see the thoughts moving; they can be seen. They are not as visible as your body; your body is visible to everybody else, it is publicly visible. Your thoughts are privately visible. Nobody else can see your thoughts; only you can see them, or people who have worked very deeply into seeing thoughts. But ordinarily they are not visible to others.

And the third, the ultimate layer inside you, is that of consciousness. It is not even visible to you. It cannot be reduced to an object, it remains the subject.

If you dissect a painting, you will find the canvas and the colors, but the painting is not simply the sum total of the canvas and the colors; it is something more. That "something more" is expressed through the painting, the color, the canvas, the artist, but that "something more" is the beauty. Dissect the rose flower, and you will find all the chemicals and things it is constituted of, but the beauty will disappear. It was not just the sum total of the parts, it was more.

The whole is more than the sum total of the parts. It expresses itself through the parts but it is more. To understand that it is more is to understand the "divine". The divine is that more, that plus. It is not a question of theology; it cannot be decided by logical argumentation. You have to feel beauty, you have to feel music, you have to feel dance. And ultimately you have to feel the dance in your body, mind and soul.

I have come to my conclusions through meditation and intuition, not through the scientific method. Therefore, we are at odds because if I say anything that is not provable via the scientific method then it will be rendered false or useless. The scientific method is the bible of the scientific community, anything that is presented outside the guidelines of that bible is considered blasphemous. Therefore, I have nothing left to say to you, except that I have my own view of reality.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959406 - 10/10/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.



No, it hasn't. You are referring to a popular, but debunked and highly flawed experiemtn done a long time ago and never replicated.

Quote:

our saying that it just.... goes away?



What just goes away? The fantasy something that does not exist in the first place?

Quote:

all laws of nature say your wrong =)



Which law in particular?


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Offlinebulipap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959416 - 10/10/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This has become a typical discussion of materialism versus idealism. I am not saying I'm a pure idealist but I suggest you learn about idealism and the thought process involved in the both philosophies, and then approach the question again.
Since I'm not an extremist of any philosophical thought, I have my own way of thinking and I have to admit that I can't at the moment argue against your well proposed arguments. Well done! Although OrgoneConclusion, people will respect you more if you see things from a wider perspective and don't become so defensive.

ConfettiHead, great post!

Also, how do you people describe quantum physics' double slit experiment, where the observer interferes with the observed, i.e. the electron? No one can fully explain this phenomenon. Maybe the human brain or consciousness interferes on quantum level?


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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