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Invisiblejolo
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How hard to pack bulk sub
    #18959187 - 10/10/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How hard do you guys pack down your bulk substrate/spawn mix when using a monotub?

I used to pack mine real tight. I figured it was a good idea but I believe it has caused me more problems than good.

I would pack it as tightly as I could possibly pack it down. In my mind it distributed the moisture better and it caused the myc to spread faster.

I just always did it and it stuck.

Then I read over some teks and realized that the common way to do it is to just even it out and lightly pack it down.

Please tell me the problems that could arise from packing real tightly. I have run into issues that I think are directly related to having tightly packed sub/spawn.

I have since changed my methods but haven't had time to see if this has fixed the issues I was having.


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18959196 - 10/10/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Dont pack it at all. Lightly tap down any part that is uneven, though.

Packing it down will inhibit myc growth. That's one reason we add verm to our substrate, because it gives our substrate a light and fluffy texture that myc loves to tear through.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18959200 - 10/10/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
How hard do you guys pack down your bulk substrate/spawn mix when using a monotub?



Not hard at all.

Keep it as loose as possible, just tap it a tiny bit to make it level.


Edited by PussyFart (10/10/13 12:33 PM)


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: PussyFart]
    #18959292 - 10/10/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Here's the problems I've had

Tritch. I have every reason to believe I have clean spawn and properly pasteurised substrate and a clean work environment. But I'd sometimes get green....way more often than I think I should have. I reevaluated every step of my process, cleaned it up a bit, was really careful and I've found that this could be my problem. If its not, I have no idea where to start next.

Tritch likes stale air and wet environments. If the sub can't breathe, from being packed so tightly, that creates stale air within the sub. Packing the sub down means there's less area for the amount of water, messing up my moisture content, and I hear too wet is real bad. In my mind this is a perfect recipe for green.

What do you more educated mycologists think?

I also have run into my sub not colonizing completely through, the top would be great but below would be pretty stagnant..which I should have know was due to the lack of gas exchange from packing too tight. But this ones obvious. I'm mostly wondering about my green problem.


Edited by jolo (10/10/13 12:59 PM)


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18959508 - 10/10/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I know about the accepted idea that if you get trich before first flush it was present in spawn to begin with..

But my wbs jars all are inoculated with clean agar. The growth inside the jars is uniform and looks like any other myc from the species I'm growing. Jars smell the same every time and smell like they "should". I've even gotten various grains from various jar that I've spawned, placed them on agar and seen nothing but clean myc grow out. But these same jars would eventually green up. All jars are tested and spawned at 100% obviously.

Then I think about how hard it is for spores to germinate on coir. Which is what I'm spawning to. I can't figure this out. But I still think it was due to the as tight as I could pack it sub. We'll see, i put together a non packed mono last night. I'd still like for some TCS to chime in.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18959632 - 10/10/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In RR "Let's Grow Mushrooms" in the chapter "On Horse Manure" he layers the grain instead of mixing.

He says he does this because mixing can damage the grain and expose the center, which is uncolonized, and this can lead to contamination.

I know mixing is well accepted, it's what I do, but if you mix too harshly, maybe you could be exposing the center of the grain.

If you have clean smelling/looking spawn and properly pasteurized field capacity substrate, this is the only thing I can think of. Or, you have a well disguised contam in your spawn.

I don't see mixing vs layering posts much these days, but I don't think the subject is completely dead. I would like to see some experienced people describe how they mix. There may be some subtlety to it.


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18959889 - 10/10/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I've thought about that too. I see no way of avoiding that though. Someone should chime in on that as well..


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18963639 - 10/11/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I've also purposely cultivated a quart jar infected with trich before in order to be able to learn the smell of it. None of my jars that I've spawned have ever smelled like that.

The monotub I put together around 48 hours ago is colonizing nicely and has a good smell to it.

How accurate is the saying "if you have mold before first flush it's from your spawn"? Is there ever an exception?

Quote:

Tritch likes stale air and wet environments. If the sub can't breathe, from being packed so tightly, that creates stale air within the sub. Packing the sub down means there's less area for the amount of water, messing up my moisture content, and I hear too wet is real bad. In my mind this is a perfect recipe for green.




This is still my main question though, what do you think about this?


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18964508 - 10/11/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you're using coir/verm, then yes if it contains before first flush its from spawn

I have a bag of pastuerized zub left over from my grows and I purposefully left it open. Its been like 2 weeks and no cobtams. It is at field capacity too. I'll leave it so and see how long it takes to contam. Its very contam resistant


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18964560 - 10/11/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
How accurate is the saying "if you have mold before first flush it's from your spawn"? Is there ever an exception?





It's somewhat true. With CVG, it may be pretty accurate, but not 100% of the time. That's why proper pasteurization is used to figure it out. If you are using properly pasteurized CVG and still get contams before the first flush, it is very likely that it's your spawn.

You can have a dormant contam that shows up in your substrate.

Don't pack CVG. After you mix in your spawn, just leave it be.


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InvisibleCH HELL
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18964657 - 10/11/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
I've also purposely cultivated a quart jar infected with trich before in order to be able to learn the smell of it.





LOL,  you don't want to smell Trich.  It won't hurt you if you eat a little but inhaling it could cause you some issues.  Chances are you won't smell it anyway.
Don't do it!
CH


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18964921 - 10/11/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
If you're using coir/verm, then yes if it contains before first flush its from spawn

I have a bag of pastuerized zub left over from my grows and I purposefully left it open. Its been like 2 weeks and no cobtams. It is at field capacity too. I'll leave it so and see how long it takes to contam. Its very contam resistant





Dude, I want to get back to my parents house where I forgot a cooler in the garage for almost two years now that has coir in it... Still no mold.  Once I can snap a pic, I'll get it up here.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18964991 - 10/11/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
I know about the accepted idea that if you get trich before first flush it was present in spawn to begin with..





When I say if you get mold before first flush it was the spawn, it assumes one didn't pack his substrate too tight, slowing down colonization.  The only substrate you should pack is straw.

However, I've never even seen trich spores germinate even on packed, wet coir.

That said, stop bumping your own thread every few minutes.  Read the rules thread at the top of mushroom cultivation before posting again please.  You're not allowed to bump your own thread for at least 24 hours.
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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18966340 - 10/11/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry I didn't "edit" my post enough. It's hard enough posting on a cell phone, much less editing a post on one. I realize I didn't wait a full 24 hours to post a reply, but as far as "bumping" my thread goes, I at least waited 20. With a busy life you don't have time to wait the full 24 hours to "bump" so sometimes you might "bump" 20 hours after your last post since you won't even be able to post until after 1 in the morning a few days later.

I do realize I did double post instead of editing, I apologize, I hope I didn't trash up your forums :frown::(:(:(:(************** If I did cause some rift to open in the forum universe, I promise I won't do it again.

Now that I won't get much more of a response other than people pointing out the rules to me, thank you for your responses. I will continue to try and figure out my problem.

It's crazy how two microscopic spores can ruin something like this.

I have seemingly good spawn, seemingly good substrate, seemingly good clean techniques. I mean my spawn smells like fresh mushroom, not at all like trich (by the way, I'm fine months after smelling my trich, thanks for the concern though, I can see how it could be dangerous :smile: ) I continue my grow on agar, and normal mushroom myc grows out, but when continued on CVG (coir/verm/gypsum??) it greens up to the point that it has to be my spawn, which confuses me due to the agar cultures/non smelling spawn/etc...

As of now, it seems to be due to my over packing of CVG messing up the moisture content. But we'll see.

I still hope someone else has figured out this problem in the past, so I don't have to wait a week or two to figure it out on my own!

****edit*************
(thank god I figured this edit thing out, phew)

If coir doesn't ever allow trich spores to meet up and grow on itself, evident by people saying they've never seen it happen (even for coir that has set out for a long time), how does it end up on so many coir grows? A lot of posts I've seen eventually have coir infected with trich after a few flushes, yet people still say trich cannot grow from spores on coir.

^^that one confuses me..


Edited by jolo (10/11/13 11:26 PM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18967401 - 10/12/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
If coir doesn't ever allow trich spores to meet up and grow on itself, evident by people saying they've never seen it happen (even for coir that has set out for a long time), how does it end up on so many coir grows? A lot of posts I've seen eventually have coir infected with trich after a few flushes, yet people still say trich cannot grow from spores on coir.

^^that one confuses me..




I think it's because the "contam resistance tests" that people do are just coir or CVG. I think it's a different story once you add a nutrient rich substance like grain, even healthy 100% colonized grain.

I think spores have a hard time germinating on coir, but if they are germinated on something else, like your spawn jars, then transferred to coir, they will continue to grow.

Once you add colonized grain, you could cause contamination by something as simple as damaging the grains while mixing. Even though the contms have not germinated on the coir, they are present because you have exposed it to the world. If you damage a grain and expose the colonized center, then the contam has a place to start colonizing.

After a couple of flushes, your myc can become too weak to defend against stronger contamination. Like said above, the contams may not have germinated directly on your CVG, but on the grains themselves because they are no longer protected by your mycelium.


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18968263 - 10/12/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That makes since. I hope I figure out my problem soon.

What's weird is that almost all of my grains that I've dunked when spawning have contamed and almost all that I haven't dunked have not contamed. Yet there's a whole thread of people swearing by it.

Maybe when straining the water out of my grains I scratch away some of the myc or something. Maybe its just mytap water is a little off for this hobby. Maybe its something else though. I wish I had unlimited time and money to test this out changing one variable at a time.. :frown:


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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18968283 - 10/12/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jolo said:
What's weird is that almost all of my grains that I've dunked when spawning have contamed and almost all that I haven't dunked have not contamed. Yet there's a whole thread of people swearing by it.




Try it again, without packing your substrate down :wink:

Make sure to wait until your jars are 100% colonized.

Break each one up and smell it for any smells that don't smell like mushroom.

Throw some money into agar...it is the best teacher and will no doubt help you out.

:goodluck:


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Invisiblejolo
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18968316 - 10/12/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sure you didn't catch this earlier, but I do use agar and before I spawn my jars I place a grain from the jar onto agar to see what grows out from it. I know one grain per jar isn't a good indication of what could be in the whole jar but from what I've seen , molds and whatever else is in the jar pretty much spreads throughout the whole thing pretty evenly. Anyway I have never grown anything from grain onto agar that wasn't pure mushroom myc but many times the same grains have shown contamination on coir pretty quickly.

I don't dunk the agar grain. I take it straight from the jar and put it on agar, then dunk the rest. I figure tap water has many dirty things in it that would grow easily on agar so I just don't bother.


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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18968339 - 10/12/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, I missed the agar bit.

One grain is not a good test for contams at all.

Trich will spread through an entire jar, but not other green molds. They just form little colonies and wait, like stealthy little bitch ninjas :mad:

I had an issue like you are describing but it's not related to the dunk.

I had molds that were piggybacking, enmeshed with my mycelium and growing in tandem on my agar cultures. RR pointed this out to me in my thread asking why the hell all my tubs contam after the first flush.

I have recently done a "house cleaning" on my slants, I have discovered many an intruder by switching up my agar recipes and transferring until I have a pure culture. On my premixed MEA that I used prior, these molds would be very difficult for me to distinguish.

I have not had a single issue with molds since, and I'm on tub 21 out of 26 isolates to test again.


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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
    #18968364 - 10/12/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It is interesting that you get contamination when dunking, but not otherwise.

I don't think the dunking, in and of itself, is the problem. I don't know how many times you've ran in to this problem, but one or two dunks may not be enough to establish causality.

It is possible that you are damaging the grain in the strainer after dunking, especially if you are mixing it around.

Like FH, said, make sure it's 100% colonized. But I think you already do that.


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