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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. * 3
    #18958504 - 10/10/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So I've been thinking about death a lot, and have come to the conclusion that death is equivalent to a deep, dreamless sleep. Your perception of yourself, this world, time, everything really, is null and void; just like a dreamless sleep. Except in the case of death you just never wake up. How have I come to the conclusion that when you die you return to nothingness? Easy. What makes us who we are? Our memories of course. Our experiences and the growth we go through as people is only possible because of our brains unique memory storage capabilities. If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self. Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally. It's because of this concept of past self and future self that we are able to be so... conscious. Now, since our memories are stored, processed, and relived all by the brain, it's logically conclusive that when the brain dies, in other words you die, so do your memories. All of that life experience, all of that raw experiential data you built up over the years, poof. Dust in the wind. You as a person, being that person because of your memories, cease to exist.

Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it. Sure life is bitterly beautiful, but at the end of yours, you're gonna be tired, if you lived that is. This place is a bizarre mystery, and I'm sure it's gonna leave us all confused enough for a lifetime. So why the anxiety from returning to nothingness, you did come from there after all. Instead of seeing death as some awfully dark and inescapable fact of life, or using religion to escape the fact altogether... Why not see death as a return to an old friend. Finally you get some peace of mind. Doesn't seem so bad to me.


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Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Registered: 07/16/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18958624 - 10/10/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like how you brought it across, very articulate and logical.
I personally think you are accurate on all accounts, but that me and you understand far to little to make any conclusive statements on the matter.
I also personally believe your soul has a personality, not all of what makes you, you, is stored in the physical brain.

Great writing sir.


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap] * 3
    #18958632 - 10/10/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A lot of assumptions not a lot of proof


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OfflineLSDreams
Contemplative Stoner
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Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 1,184
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Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18958645 - 10/10/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.




You stop living? You will no longer be able to experience life. Plus it causes others to be sad that you're no longer with them to experience life with.

I dont know about yourself, but there are still questions i need to know the answer to... and if i could live for centuries waiting for the answers to come, that'd be awesome.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Repertoire89] * 4
    #18958802 - 10/10/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
A lot of assumptions not a lot of proof




This should satisfy your requirement:



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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18958839 - 10/10/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Your reasoning on the matter is based solely on what you've gathered via your five senses. There is still a lot more that we don't know because our perceptions are limited, our senses imperfect. The data in the brain that you speak of could potentially die off with the cessation of the brain's functioning or it could continue on. After all, energy does not cease to be but rather continues on whilst donning alternate forms along the way. I do not have the authority to say that one thing happens and another thing doesn't, but I would encourage you, as well as everyone else, to continuously look outside of yourself and question EVERYTHING.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18958877 - 10/10/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The data in the brain that you speak of could potentially die off with the cessation of the brain's functioning or it could continue on. After all, energy does not cease to be but rather continues on whilst donning alternate forms along the way




Must we cover this fallacy once a month always spouted off by people with nary an understanding of physics? Please explain how data = energy?


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18958935 - 10/10/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I cannot explain to you how data equals energy, nor can I explain to you how data does not equal energy. You say I have nary an understanding of physics, and my reply to that is that I have just as much of an understanding as you do. Please Mr. Astrophysicist, explain to us this science in detail. Clearly you're an expert. Now, I am not claiming anything, I am not putting forth fallacious arguments; I'm simply throwing out possibilities in order to spark an interesting conversation. Of course, we always have gentlemen like yourself to come in and extinguish the conversation before it even ignites. Bravo sir, thanks for keeping these forums boring.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18958960 - 10/10/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

People fear death because its instinct. Do you think that the zebra's that didn't fear getting eaten by a lion lived to pass on their genetics? Interesting writing and honestly I've had very similar thoughts.:thumbup:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18958994 - 10/10/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I cannot explain to you how data equals energy, nor can I explain to you how data does not equal energy.



Of course you cannot because there is no relationship.

Quote:

I am not putting forth fallacious arguments



Yet, you did.

Quote:

Clearly you're an expert.



Is that a valid conclusion from the information presented or mere emotionalism?

Quote:

I'm simply throwing out possibilities in order to spark an interesting conversation



A possibility starting with false assumptions and based on a misunderstanding of basic physics is not worthy of discussion.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959039 - 10/10/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You win. You have successfully shown that my rambling is of no value. Maybe I shall quit pondering such matters as they appear to be useless.


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
Male


Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
Loc: Center of existence
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959043 - 10/10/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Your reasoning on the matter is based solely on what you've gathered via your five senses. There is still a lot more that we don't know because our perceptions are limited, our senses imperfect. [...]




This. What is our consciousness (including memories, thoughts, feelings and the sense of now) does not derive from out brain, but rather from another place? Maybe it's all stored in what we call as our soul?
As this paradigm I read somewhere states, maybe only our physical brain works as a receptor of consciousness, much as a TV set receives the electromagnetic waves we call radio waves. Now if the TV set breaks, of course the TV signal continues. If our brain and body "dies", could the consciousness still not seize to exist?

Nothing in science actually indicates that it couldn't be like this..


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I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18959048 - 10/10/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
A lot of assumptions not a lot of proof




A lot of using proof interchangeably with evidence.


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
Male


Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
Loc: Center of existence
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959059 - 10/10/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A possibility starting with false assumptions and based on a misunderstanding of basic physics is not worthy of discussion.




Who are you to say what a false assumption is? Is an assumption that isn't mainstream false to you?

Also, physics can not explain everything. It can explain that what we know, but what we don't know physics cannot explain. I hope you're not assuming that we as humans know everything there is to know.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
Male


Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
Loc: Center of existence
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959062 - 10/10/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Maybe I shall quit pondering such matters as they appear to be useless.




No please don't. We need open minded people like you at this forum.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Registered: 06/14/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959097 - 10/10/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well I have always believed in strict open-mindedness and in the questioning of everything, even to the point of utter exhaustion. Yet my simple statements are often taken the wrong way and stomped upon by the "scientific elite" that run rampant on these forums. You would think a place called Shroomery would be willing to go "out there", but it seems that getting the rocket ship to even leave the station is a task in itself.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959101 - 10/10/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Who are you to say what a false assumption is?



I am the mighty OC and am actually proud to be educated. Too many here are proud of their ignorance. It is not something to be cherished.

Quote:

Is an assumption that isn't mainstream false to you?



Huh? Can you posit a real question and not a false dichotomy?

How many joules in the letter 't'? The question makes no sense as data or information is not related to energy. The end.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959115 - 10/10/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Well I have always believed in strict open-mindedness and in the questioning of everything, even to the point of utter exhaustion. Yet my simple statements are often taken the wrong way and stomped upon by the "scientific elite" that run rampant on these forums. You would think a place called Shroomery would be willing to go "out there", but it seems that getting the rocket ship to even leave the station is a task in itself.




There was no taking them the wrong way. They were wrong. This is not opinion nor close-mindedness. If you start with nonsense, the conversation has nowhere to go.

How many more posts of butthurtedness will you present instead of reading the critique and admitting error? That is the mature thing to do.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: teknix]
    #18959156 - 10/10/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
A lot of assumptions not a lot of proof




A lot of using proof interchangeably with evidence.




Already playing semantics goosebumps?
Can you provide proof or evidence for his argument?


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #18959177 - 10/10/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

OC, you claim to be educated and you falsely assume that everyone else here is not. Please if you don't mind, tell us your credentials, I'm curious.


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
Male


Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
Loc: Center of existence
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959199 - 10/10/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The question makes no sense as data or information is not related to energy.




As science hasn't yet explained everything many believe that energy is the essence of life. Not just the driving force as physics claim but that we, as everything else in our reality solely are energy. As I stated above if we move from one life form to another, it is actually only energy travelling. This energy is information because what is anything without information. The question cannot simply be answered from one single close-minded perspective, but rather from several ones. This is why I won't claim your point of view as being erroneous and "nonsense". Seeing both side of things makes for a good conversation.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959211 - 10/10/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Seems you would rather keep doing non-productive pissing than learn something.

Why not actually look at the statement that I highlighted and attempt to see the error and then reform your initial presentation and maybe we can continue on topic.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959218 - 10/10/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Seems you would rather keep doing non-productive pissing than learn something.

Why not actually look at the statement that I highlighted and attempt to see the error and then reform your initial presentation and maybe we can continue on topic.




:woooaaahhh:

Noooo! Must resort to personalisms


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959220 - 10/10/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

On some things there is no 'both sides'. Energy is either related to information or it is not. This is not like chocolate vs. vanilla. Please present the formula equating energy to information and I will acquiesce.


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
Male


Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
Loc: Center of existence
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959233 - 10/10/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Again you only see it from the physics point of view.

Oh well, I give up as this seems to be pointless.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959261 - 10/10/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Your reasoning on the matter is based solely on what you've gathered via your five senses. There is still a lot more that we don't know because our perceptions are limited, our senses imperfect. [...]




This. What is our consciousness (including memories, thoughts, feelings and the sense of now) does not derive from out brain, but rather from another place? Maybe it's all stored in what we call as our soul?
As this paradigm I read somewhere states, maybe only our physical brain works as a receptor of consciousness, much as a TV set receives the electromagnetic waves we call radio waves. Now if the TV set breaks, of course the TV signal continues. If our brain and body "dies", could the consciousness still not seize to exist?

Nothing in science actually indicates that it couldn't be like this..




I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959266 - 10/10/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Energy has a v-e-r-y specific and well-defined meaning otherwise it is just gibberish that could mean anything whatsoever. How useful is that?


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959288 - 10/10/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Well I have always believed in strict open-mindedness and in the questioning of everything, even to the point of utter exhaustion. Yet my simple statements are often taken the wrong way and stomped upon by the "scientific elite" that run rampant on these forums. You would think a place called Shroomery would be willing to go "out there", but it seems that getting the rocket ship to even leave the station is a task in itself.




Open-mindedness is important, but rationality is more so. If an open-minded idea is presented that can then be utterly demolished with rationality, it is an idea not worth talking about. The whole point of philosophy is to discuss/share ideas that are at the very least rationally plausible. The data in your brain exists physically, in the form of your brain cells. Logically follows that that physical data will not somehow convert to energy, and still contain the data of your experience here.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959295 - 10/10/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Again you only see it from the physics point of view.

Oh well, I give up as this seems to be pointless.




Physics is quite literally everything. EVERYTHING consensus, and real that we perceive in this world is governed by what we call physics. We can't talk about what we don't know because we don't know it. So why even mention it? The only things we know, are the things we perceive with our 5 senses, in this very physical realm. Deal with it.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959299 - 10/10/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, a breath of fresh air. 

:feelingfab:


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Offlinebulipap
Does it even matter?
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Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 73
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959312 - 10/10/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.




Oh yes, very true. All knowledge we have acquired we seemed to have experienced in this realm of our lifetime on this earth. By consciousness I mean, though, that maybe all our knowledge actually gets stored, after we have experienced it here as humans, somewhere else. Maybe in our own individual consciousness? And as we move on after we die, we still carry this knowledge and can process it without the brain. This is a question of what you believe in and I totally understand those who believe that everything is located in the brain which is required to process the information. This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.


--------------------
I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way.

Everything I post is a lie.


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Offlinestellarshnap
Poet who doesn't know it


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 646
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LSDreams]
    #18959317 - 10/10/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreams said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.




You stop living? You will no longer be able to experience life. Plus it causes others to be sad that you're no longer with them to experience life with.

I dont know about yourself, but there are still questions i need to know the answer to... and if i could live for centuries waiting for the answers to come, that'd be awesome.




Well first of all, accept that those questions, if they are like the questions I have about this place, will never be answered by humans. We are biologically incapable of comprehending such things. That simple. As for no longer being able to experience life.. life isn't some silly willy fun time. It's hard, cruel, indifferent, and quite the bitch. Yes it has it's moments of beauty and utter perfection, but in general "life seems to become one big act of learning to let go". After 80-90 years of it, I get the feeling that I will be quite tired, and quite ready to let go of this extraordinarily insane place.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineMR.Merlin
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Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 88
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959323 - 10/10/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

sadly... matter cannot be displaced nor destroyed.

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.

your saying that it just.... goes away?

all laws of nature say na your wrong =)

(backed by science in this case)


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Mushroom growing is a hobby, and any thing posted under this account is solely a replication of naturally occurring phenomena done for scientific study and observation, fully within the bounds of federal law.

further more, all things stated on this site by this account are works of fiction. I am attempting to create an alter ego that is totally false to immerse myself in a character for a book.


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Offlinebulipap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959330 - 10/10/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Of course you have to think rationally in order to propose an idea, but if I believe in something and discuss it in a rational way, how is this wrong? Only because it contradicts with your idea doesn't mean it's irrational.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959331 - 10/10/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MR.Merlin said:

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.





Source?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959334 - 10/10/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bulipap said:
Quote:

I'm not talking about consciousness. I'm talking about you as an individual, in this realm. I'm saying that all the information about this place you've accumulated, subjective or objective, dies with you. (Don't forget that you only accumulated that information with your imperfect 5 senses. They're your only way to perceive this world, thus the only thing you can build off of.) The information dies unless of course you make it REAL, not just a non-physical ideation you manifest with your brain. For example, with writing. If you immortalize your ideas by writing a book, they live on, but as only that. A book. You're still gone. My reasoning in a way stems from the fact that any time I experienced what I believed to be pure, universal consciousness, I forgot who I was, where I was, when I was, what I was. Never knew why I was in the first place. I was everything. The entire concept of ME was just gone. If you live on as some mutated form of energy after death, it's not going to be you. It's going to be just that, transformed energy. It won't have your memories, or a sense of self. Because for a sense of self, some sort of processor, ie. the brain is required.




Oh yes, very true. All knowledge we have acquired we seemed to have experienced in this realm of our lifetime on this earth. By consciousness I mean, though, that maybe all our knowledge actually gets stored, after we have experienced it here as humans, somewhere else. Maybe in our own individual consciousness? And as we move on after we die, we still carry this knowledge and can process it without the brain. This is a question of what you believe in and I totally understand those who believe that everything is located in the brain which is required to process the information. This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.




Your view is interesting, but not so much worth discussing. It is already essentially known that memory is manufactured by the very material brain, correct me if I'm wrong. Knowledge is made up of memories. You have to remember getting burned in order to not touch the stove again. It seems very irrational to me to try to make the knowledge you gain something it's not, in order to escape the fact that  it, and who you are here, will both die. There is no individual consciousness outside of the one you produce for yourself with your memories. That simple.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/10/13 01:11 PM)


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: bulipap]
    #18959335 - 10/10/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe in our own individual consciousness?



Consciousness is a property of the brain, not a location.

Quote:

This is the materialistic view and is as correct as mine.



Sorry, but there are not two correct 'views' on this. If you want to posit some external consciousness storage device then present your evidence otherwise there is nothing to discuss.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959388 - 10/10/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Modern physics has discovered one of the greatest things ever discovered, and that is: matter is energy. That is the greatest contribution of Albert Einstein to humanity: e is equal to mc squared, matter is energy. This formula proposes that when a body has a mass, it has a certain amount of energy, even if it is at rest, and does not have any form of potential energy, chemical energy, etc, it still has that amount of energy. As opposed to the Newtonian mechanics in which a massive body could have no energy at all. That is why we often call the mass the rest energy of the body. The E of the formula can be seen as the total energy of the body, which is proportional to the mass only when the body is at rest.

Conversely, a cloud of photons travelling in empty space, with each photon having no rest mass, still have a mass, m, due to their kinetic energy.

This formula also gives the quantatative relation of energy and mass in any process when they transform into each other, such as a nuclear explosion. Then this E could be seen as the energy released when a certain amount of mass m is annihilated, or the energy absorbed to create a certain amount of mass m. In those cases, the energy released(absorbed) equals in quantity to the mass annihilated(created) times the speed of light squared. Eddington, one of the greatest scientists of this age, has said, "We used to think that matter is a thing; now it is no more so. Matter is more like a thought than like a thing."

Existence is energy. Science has discovered that the observed is energy, the object is energy. Down through the ages, at least for five thousand years, it has been known that the other polarity- the subject, the observer, consciousness- is energy.

Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy. Then what is the difference between these three? The difference is only of a different rhythm, different wavelengths, that's all. The body is gross energy functioning in a gross way, in a visible way.

Mind is a little more subtle, but still not too subtle, because you can close your eyes and you can see the thoughts moving; they can be seen. They are not as visible as your body; your body is visible to everybody else, it is publicly visible. Your thoughts are privately visible. Nobody else can see your thoughts; only you can see them, or people who have worked very deeply into seeing thoughts. But ordinarily they are not visible to others.

And the third, the ultimate layer inside you, is that of consciousness. It is not even visible to you. It cannot be reduced to an object, it remains the subject.

If you dissect a painting, you will find the canvas and the colors, but the painting is not simply the sum total of the canvas and the colors; it is something more. That "something more" is expressed through the painting, the color, the canvas, the artist, but that "something more" is the beauty. Dissect the rose flower, and you will find all the chemicals and things it is constituted of, but the beauty will disappear. It was not just the sum total of the parts, it was more.

The whole is more than the sum total of the parts. It expresses itself through the parts but it is more. To understand that it is more is to understand the "divine". The divine is that more, that plus. It is not a question of theology; it cannot be decided by logical argumentation. You have to feel beauty, you have to feel music, you have to feel dance. And ultimately you have to feel the dance in your body, mind and soul.

I have come to my conclusions through meditation and intuition, not through the scientific method. Therefore, we are at odds because if I say anything that is not provable via the scientific method then it will be rendered false or useless. The scientific method is the bible of the scientific community, anything that is presented outside the guidelines of that bible is considered blasphemous. Therefore, I have nothing left to say to you, except that I have my own view of reality.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959406 - 10/10/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.



No, it hasn't. You are referring to a popular, but debunked and highly flawed experiemtn done a long time ago and never replicated.

Quote:

our saying that it just.... goes away?



What just goes away? The fantasy something that does not exist in the first place?

Quote:

all laws of nature say your wrong =)



Which law in particular?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959416 - 10/10/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This has become a typical discussion of materialism versus idealism. I am not saying I'm a pure idealist but I suggest you learn about idealism and the thought process involved in the both philosophies, and then approach the question again.
Since I'm not an extremist of any philosophical thought, I have my own way of thinking and I have to admit that I can't at the moment argue against your well proposed arguments. Well done! Although OrgoneConclusion, people will respect you more if you see things from a wider perspective and don't become so defensive.

ConfettiHead, great post!

Also, how do you people describe quantum physics' double slit experiment, where the observer interferes with the observed, i.e. the electron? No one can fully explain this phenomenon. Maybe the human brain or consciousness interferes on quantum level?


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Everything I post is a lie.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959419 - 10/10/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why the attempt at a basic physics lesson (it is not me that needs it), then a sudden shift to mystical nonsense?

That is quite the chasm-jump!



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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959469 - 10/10/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why the attempt at a basic physics lesson (it is not me that needs it), then a sudden shift to mystical nonsense?

That is quite the chasm-jump!






Why? Because LSD.

:yogabunny:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959475 - 10/10/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)


oh and btw if you read the snoopes article about this, please understand

SNOOPS IS TWO 60 YEAR OLD RIGHT WING REPUBLICANS THAT USE GOOGLE TO DEBUNK THINGS.

they have NO credibility.

this experiment has been mimicked with success as well.


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Mushroom growing is a hobby, and any thing posted under this account is solely a replication of naturally occurring phenomena done for scientific study and observation, fully within the bounds of federal law.

further more, all things stated on this site by this account are works of fiction. I am attempting to create an alter ego that is totally false to immerse myself in a character for a book.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959479 - 10/10/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self. Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally.




It depends what you mean by "no memory." In the strictest sense, DNA is a form of memory that encodes instincts, which in turn influence emotions which are filtered through memory. So your idea of the "primal self" distinct from memory is nonexistent in nature. When you die, you also lose the memory DNA has encoded, so "you" are reverted to an even more primordial state: darkness.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959532 - 10/10/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

this experiment has been mimicked with success as well.




Then you will be able to link a peer-reviewed article on this most amazing discovery of all time.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LSDreams]
    #18959563 - 10/10/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreams said:
You stop living? You will no longer be able to experience life.



Yeah, but you won't be able to experience yourself not experiencing anything, so what's the big deal? :shrug:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: NetDiver]
    #18959578 - 10/10/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

unfortunatly,

after some small errors were found in the inital research this kind of study has become almost extinct.

the last thing i read on this was back in high school some swiss scientists i will look for the article though.

however it is pretty implausible to think that a soul doesn't have any weight or mass...

and all things are one conscious... we are all the same consciousness experiencing it from a different perspective.

"death"

its a silly term.


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Mushroom growing is a hobby, and any thing posted under this account is solely a replication of naturally occurring phenomena done for scientific study and observation, fully within the bounds of federal law.

further more, all things stated on this site by this account are works of fiction. I am attempting to create an alter ego that is totally false to immerse myself in a character for a book.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959609 - 10/10/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In other words: you have nothing and you are citing a flawed experiment to back up nonsense. :congrats:

Philosophy is a search for truth; not a search for horseshit.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead] * 1
    #18959656 - 10/10/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
You win. You have successfully shown that my rambling is of no value. Maybe I shall quit pondering such matters as they appear to be useless.



:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959668 - 10/10/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we are all the same consciousness experiencing it from a different perspective




Are you aware that this is not the 'make bare assertions' forum?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959685 - 10/10/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

people like you dont want to disscuss things and further knowledge you just want to piss on other people.  for a second i thought you may wanna have a conversation instead of just bieng an ass. i see i was wrong.

+1 ass hole points to you sir.


peace

Mod edit: Leave the personalisms out of PS&P.

On an ironic note, after calling OC an ass, you then say "peace".


Edited by tymoteusz3 (10/10/13 02:41 PM)


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959698 - 10/10/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

LOL OVER 30 PEOPLE IGNORE YOU.

i cant imagine why
:pipesmoke:


--------------------
Mushroom growing is a hobby, and any thing posted under this account is solely a replication of naturally occurring phenomena done for scientific study and observation, fully within the bounds of federal law.

further more, all things stated on this site by this account are works of fiction. I am attempting to create an alter ego that is totally false to immerse myself in a character for a book.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959705 - 10/10/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MR.Merlin said:
LOL OVER 30 PEOPLE IGNORE YOU.

i cant imagine why
:pipesmoke:




Because a lot of people get butt hurt when he points out how nonsensical their opinions are. I've solved the mystery for you, you're welcome :wink:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959715 - 10/10/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do you realize that you were addressing yourself?

How does making up stuff further knowledge?

How is pointing out a flawed experiment pissing on people? Spouting erroneous information is a huge disservice and there is nothing noble in that.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/10/13 02:44 PM)


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18959741 - 10/10/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MR.Merlin said:
LOL OVER 30 PEOPLE IGNORE YOU.

i cant imagine why
:pipesmoke:




Please explain how being liked or disliked is a metric for The Truth and how it relates to the topic.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18959773 - 10/10/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The ultimate point to all of this is that life goes on. For instance you, as a Chinese male let's say, will not continue on as that personality upon death. Whether awareness continues on or not, no one knows, but your name, your ego, your SELF as you know it on this earth will most assuredly cease to be. However, the body you once carried will become food for worms and life will essentially go on.

Now, whether your awareness continues on (sans your earthly personality) is a subject of debate. Nobody knows for sure if a state of awareness continues on or not. In either case, you will not be what you used to be, that is certain.

So we have some possibilities:

a) You die, your brain functioning ceases and there is only non-perceivable darkness.

b) You die, your brain functioning ceases, yet awareness continues on and takes on another form, either that of an entirely different human being or an animal or a plant.

c) You die, your brain functioning continues for a time, during this window of time you go on a "trip", but when brain functioning finally ceases you perceive no more. (Possible explanation of NDE)

d) You die, your brain functioning ceases and awareness continues on into the cosmos and you no longer take on any form, but rather "become the universe".

We can speculate all day, but I'm afraid that a conclusion will not be reached, at least not today. Therefore, believe what you believe.

On another note, I think a more interesting subject would be where does consciousness come from? I've yet to research this, I'm guessing some would say it appears as the brain develops, etc. But I want to know, when does it appear and how does it appear? Does science have an answer for this? I'm just wondering because I honestly haven't conducted any substantial research on the matter yet.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: mylfgur]
    #18959858 - 10/10/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mylfgur said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self. Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally.




It depends what you mean by "no memory." In the strictest sense, DNA is a form of memory that encodes instincts, which in turn influence emotions which are filtered through memory. So your idea of the "primal self" distinct from memory is nonexistent in nature. When you die, you also lose the memory DNA has encoded, so "you" are reverted to an even more primordial state: darkness.




I was referring to being alive without the capabilities of memory we have. I agree with you, and my whole point is that when you die, you return to darkness/nothingness. You cease to exist. The whole point is that memory cannot transcend death, as it is physical, and physical things are subject to death.


--------------------
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"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18959904 - 10/10/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
The ultimate point to all of this is that life goes on. For instance you, as a Chinese male let's say, will not continue on as that personality upon death. Whether awareness continues on or not, no one knows, but your name, your ego, your SELF as you know it on this earth will most assuredly cease to be. However, the body you once carried will become food for worms and life will essentially go on.

Now, whether your awareness continues on (sans your earthly personality) is a subject of debate. Nobody knows for sure if a state of awareness continues on or not. In either case, you will not be what you used to be, that is certain.

So we have some possibilities:

a) You die, your brain functioning ceases and there is only non-perceivable darkness.

b) You die, your brain functioning ceases, yet awareness continues on and takes on another form, either that of an entirely different human being or an animal or a plant.

c) You die, your brain functioning continues for a time, during this window of time you go on a "trip", but when brain functioning finally ceases you perceive no more. (Possible explanation of NDE)

d) You die, your brain functioning ceases and awareness continues on into the cosmos and you no longer take on any form, but rather "become the universe".

We can speculate all day, but I'm afraid that a conclusion will not be reached, at least not today. Therefore, believe what you believe.

On another note, I think a more interesting subject would be where does consciousness come from? I've yet to research this, I'm guessing some would say it appears as the brain develops, etc. But I want to know, when does it appear and how does it appear? Does science have an answer for this? I'm just wondering because I honestly haven't conducted any substantial research on the matter yet.




Option C is the most likely, as the brain functions for 6 or so hours after death, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. Plus the whole dmt/pineal gland thing seems pretty interesting. Especially now that dmt has actually been discovered there. Still I maintain some healthy skepticism on the topic though.

As for consciousness, I would speculate that it is a byproduct of the way our brains work. The way we experience reality through our senses, as this collage like singular sense composed of the 5 senses, as well as the way we remember/relive our memories, results in this well developed sense of self, ie. consciousness. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18959957 - 10/10/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.





Creatures that fear death and avoid it are better at surviving and passing on their genetic code then creatures who don't. Anxiety is fear of something happening in the future. Humans, being able to think abstractly, can place themselves in time time, so we, unlike any other creature on earth, can look into the future, realize we're going to die, and feel anxious about it.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18959991 - 10/10/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
You win. You have successfully shown that my rambling is of no value. Maybe I shall quit pondering such matters as they appear to be useless.



:thumbup:




I happen to find that thinking about such things is very useful for making oneself uncomfortable with most every aspect of existence. :yesnod:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: White Beard]
    #18960036 - 10/10/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.





Creatures that fear death and avoid it are better at surviving and passing on their genetic code then creatures who don't. Anxiety is fear of something happening in the future. Humans, being able to think abstractly, can place themselves in time time, so we, unlike any other creature on earth, can look into the future, realize we're going to die, and feel anxious about it.




Yes, but being able to think abstractly and all, shouldn't we be able to think about it objectively, realize that really it's not that big of a deal, you're not gonna worry about being dead when you die. You came from nothing, and you're returning to it. Big deal. :shrug:


--------------------
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"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960078 - 10/10/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.





Creatures that fear death and avoid it are better at surviving and passing on their genetic code then creatures who don't. Anxiety is fear of something happening in the future. Humans, being able to think abstractly, can place themselves in time time, so we, unlike any other creature on earth, can look into the future, realize we're going to die, and feel anxious about it.




Yes, but being able to think abstractly and all, shouldn't we be able to think about it objectively, realize that really it's not that big of a deal, you're not gonna worry about being dead when you die. You came from nothing, and you're returning to it. Big deal. :shrug:




It only becomes a big deal when there is no denying that death is very near.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960081 - 10/10/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it.





Creatures that fear death and avoid it are better at surviving and passing on their genetic code then creatures who don't. Anxiety is fear of something happening in the future. Humans, being able to think abstractly, can place themselves in time time, so we, unlike any other creature on earth, can look into the future, realize we're going to die, and feel anxious about it.




Yes, but being able to think abstractly and all, shouldn't we be able to think about it objectively, realize that really it's not that big of a deal, you're not gonna worry about being dead when you die. You came from nothing, and you're returning to it. Big deal. :shrug:





Sure if you were a computer but humans are emotional and so have emotional charges around ideas.  We think subjectively and very rarely (maybe math) objectively.

It's easy to say "Big deal" when it's not staring you in the face. That's why many people believe they have no fear of death. They think about it at safe and secure times and so don't feel afraid at least consciously, but as they say "there are no atheists in foxholes".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960093 - 10/10/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps it's because I'm still young that I'm able to brush aside the idea of death so easily. But still when pondering it I feel nothing related to fear. In fact I think on a subconscious level I welcome my death. This world is full of pain, beauty, and more pain. Death honestly just seems like a wonderful escape.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960095 - 10/10/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

But are there foxes in atheist holes?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960117 - 10/10/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Perhaps it's because I'm still young that I'm able to brush aside the idea of death so easily. But still when pondering it I feel nothing related to fear. In fact I think on a subconscious level I welcome my death. This world is full of pain, beauty, and more pain. Death honestly just seems like a wonderful escape.




Watch what happens when you have your next "close call".  If you truly welcomed death as you claim here you'd off yourself.  Yet here you are talking about how much pain life is.  Now maybe you can see an unconscious dynamic at work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960171 - 10/10/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've had moments on high doses of drugs where I was 100% sure I was about to die, and it scared me at first, but really soon after that I accepted it, and it felt good to do so. Really the only reason I haven't offed myself at this point is because it would hurt the people close to me. Don't get me wrong I enjoy life, death just doesn't seem like a bad alternative.:shrug:


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/10/13 04:10 PM)


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960189 - 10/10/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Right you were scared, that's death anxiety. It can happen again too with the right stimulus.  Life is long, you'll likely get a chance to verify this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960193 - 10/10/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Point of that was that I got past it, and it didn't really bother me anymore.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960203 - 10/10/13 04:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes and as I said it will likely happen again so you can get over it again.  If you want to understand the mechanism behind this read Ernest Becker's Denial of Death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18960239 - 10/10/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
But are there foxes in atheist holes?




Are there foxes in atheist holes?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18960308 - 10/10/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/24/stephen-hawking-brains-copied-life-after-death_n_3977682.html

Always thought that could be possible someday...
I just hope i'm still alive by then :p


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960316 - 10/10/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Will do. Thanks for the recommendation.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960507 - 10/10/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So I guess you guy haven't been to the great wall of knowledge yet, Pity. Thing evolve and manifest in different forms.
Cloud storage is a wonderful thing, think about it.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: CosmicAdventurer]
    #18960522 - 10/10/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Gee, thanks for posting. :braindamage:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18960578 - 10/10/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Most human beings over most of recorded history disagree with you. So do I. Sleep is sleep and death may result in an number of possibilities. Those possibilities have everything to do with the condition of the being who is transitioning into death. Annihilation is one possibility for certain individuals. In the highest mystical states, Eternity is experienced, non-linearity. In those states, there is no memory because thought is linear. It is a Pure Consciousness Event, it is Awareness of Awareness, and Awareness consisting of non-cognitive Identity, the "I AM" of Jesus in the Johannine Gospel, the Logos experiencing Itself as Self-Effulgent Eternal and Unbearable Compassion. Enlightenment or Salvation seems to consist in the illusion of our temporal identities falling away, and Awakening to the Realization that we've ALWAYS been the Eternal Logos. This is what awaits those who are duly prepared for death. The Buddhists call it the Clear Light. Christians call it the Kingdom of God or Heaven.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18960606 - 10/10/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
a) You die, your brain functioning ceases and there is only non-perceivable darkness.



Non-perceivable darkness is a non-sequitur. :shrug:

I don't believe in an afterlife, as there is no evidence for one, however the fact remains that "nothingness" is not perceivable. The entire idea of non-perception is fundamentally paradoxical, but I'm not ready to solve the paradox with an unsupported leap of faith. Right now the best I can do is that I think it would be wrong to say there's "nothingness," and just as wrong to say that there's an afterlife. What the right answer is, I don't know. :shrug:


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (10/10/13 05:56 PM)


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: CosmicAdventurer]
    #18960613 - 10/10/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicAdventurer said:
So I guess you guy haven't been to the great wall of knowledge yet, Pity. Thing evolve and manifest in different forms.
Cloud storage is a wonderful thing, think about it.




I prefer to make rain.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18960688 - 10/10/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Most human beings over most of recorded history disagree with you. So do I. Sleep is sleep and death may result in an number of possibilities. Those possibilities have everything to do with the condition of the being who is transitioning into death. Annihilation is one possibility for certain individuals. In the highest mystical states, Eternity is experienced, non-linearity. In those states, there is no memory because thought is linear. It is a Pure Consciousness Event, it is Awareness of Awareness, and Awareness consisting of non-cognitive Identity, the "I AM" of Jesus in the Johannine Gospel, the Logos experiencing Itself as Self-Effulgent Eternal and Unbearable Compassion. Enlightenment or Salvation seems to consist in the illusion of our temporal identities falling away, and Awakening to the Realization that we've ALWAYS been the Eternal Logos. This is what awaits those who are duly prepared for death. The Buddhists call it the Clear Light. Christians call it the Kingdom of God or Heaven.





Or so it is said. :wink: 

I plan on turning down the 40 virgins and heading straight for the XTC bar and grill.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18960913 - 10/10/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Most human beings over most of recorded history disagree with you. So do I. Sleep is sleep and death may result in an number of possibilities. Those possibilities have everything to do with the condition of the being who is transitioning into death. Annihilation is one possibility for certain individuals. In the highest mystical states, Eternity is experienced, non-linearity. In those states, there is no memory because thought is linear. It is a Pure Consciousness Event, it is Awareness of Awareness, and Awareness consisting of non-cognitive Identity, the "I AM" of Jesus in the Johannine Gospel, the Logos experiencing Itself as Self-Effulgent Eternal and Unbearable Compassion. Enlightenment or Salvation seems to consist in the illusion of our temporal identities falling away, and Awakening to the Realization that we've ALWAYS been the Eternal Logos. This is what awaits those who are duly prepared for death. The Buddhists call it the Clear Light. Christians call it the Kingdom of God or Heaven.





Or so it is said. :wink: 

I plan on turning down the 40 virgins and heading straight for the XTC bar and grill.




Right. But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre. If  a transcendental dawn doesn't arise, so be it. But Delta sleep as equivalent to death just doesn't seem very imaginative a thing to happen. It's so anticlimactic. Birth of a baby is always being fawned over, 'How miraculous!, The Miracle of Life!...' Meh. I never had the desire to become a father. I had friends who thought about it a lot and followed through. My best friend found he really wasn't into it, and when he and his wife divorced, he became little more than a child-support contributor until his daughter turned 18. Now, 9 days younger than me, he's a grandfather three times over. But, what about the 'Miracle of Death?' Why, that's preposterous, blasphemous, totally disgusting! :nono: Why? Mahatma Gandhi's birth was laudable, but Hitler's was not. Were they both illustrations of the miraculousness of life when they were infants? I suppose so, but then Life developed one of those 'miracles' into a loathsome demon. There are good deaths and bad deaths. Dying while gazing at the sky from the roots of a big tree while reclining is a good death in my imaginings, death in Auschwitz's gas chamber was not. But I can't help but wonder about the metaphysics that comes before the physics of our birth and after the physics of our life.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: NetDiver]
    #18960988 - 10/10/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
a) You die, your brain functioning ceases and there is only non-perceivable darkness.



Non-perceivable darkness is a non-sequitur. :shrug:

I don't believe in an afterlife, as there is no evidence for one, however the fact remains that "nothingness" is not perceivable.




I see what you're saying, but what I meant by non-perceivable darkness is essentially "nothingness", I just said it in a more difficult way. I know that nothingness is not perceivable. However, darkness is perceivable. Therefore, non-perceivable darkness would be nothingness. I think you know what I meant.

Quote:

The entire idea of non-perception is fundamentally paradoxical, but I'm not ready to solve the paradox with an unsupported leap of faith. Right now the best I can do is that I think it would be wrong to say there's "nothingness," and just as wrong to say that there's an afterlife. What the right answer is, I don't know. :shrug:




Nobody knows, haha. That's why speaking from a position of authority on the matter is utter foolishness. It's quite hilarious when I see individuals doing that.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18961301 - 10/10/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Most human beings over most of recorded history disagree with you. So do I. Sleep is sleep and death may result in an number of possibilities. Those possibilities have everything to do with the condition of the being who is transitioning into death. Annihilation is one possibility for certain individuals. In the highest mystical states, Eternity is experienced, non-linearity. In those states, there is no memory because thought is linear. It is a Pure Consciousness Event, it is Awareness of Awareness, and Awareness consisting of non-cognitive Identity, the "I AM" of Jesus in the Johannine Gospel, the Logos experiencing Itself as Self-Effulgent Eternal and Unbearable Compassion. Enlightenment or Salvation seems to consist in the illusion of our temporal identities falling away, and Awakening to the Realization that we've ALWAYS been the Eternal Logos. This is what awaits those who are duly prepared for death. The Buddhists call it the Clear Light. Christians call it the Kingdom of God or Heaven.




This would all be awesome, if these weren't states of mind experienced while ALIVE, with the use of the brain. Shit I've had experiences where my sense of self melted away and I merged with the infinite, I just didn't automatically assume it was some sort of mystical experience of a higher truth. Rather, that my brains perception of reality had been distorted to a great extent with the help of some healthy drug doses.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18961315 - 10/10/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Delta sleep as equivalent to death just doesn't seem very imaginative a thing to happen. It's so anticlimactic.




When I compare death to a deep, dreamless sleep, I do so because that is the closest I've come to "experiencing" nothingness. In other words, I didn't experience those 8 hours. I fell asleep, and woke up, my brain not registering/remembering anything in between. Why does death have to be climactic? Have you ever thought that maybe life IS the climax?


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18961324 - 10/10/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
a) You die, your brain functioning ceases and there is only non-perceivable darkness.



Non-perceivable darkness is a non-sequitur. :shrug:

I don't believe in an afterlife, as there is no evidence for one, however the fact remains that "nothingness" is not perceivable.




I see what you're saying, but what I meant by non-perceivable darkness is essentially "nothingness", I just said it in a more difficult way. I know that nothingness is not perceivable. However, darkness is perceivable. Therefore, non-perceivable darkness would be nothingness. I think you know what I meant.

Quote:

The entire idea of non-perception is fundamentally paradoxical, but I'm not ready to solve the paradox with an unsupported leap of faith. Right now the best I can do is that I think it would be wrong to say there's "nothingness," and just as wrong to say that there's an afterlife. What the right answer is, I don't know. :shrug:




Nobody knows, haha. That's why speaking from a position of authority on the matter is utter foolishness. It's quite hilarious when I see individuals doing that.




I'm not saying that this is what it is, don't misunderstand my intentions. I formed an idea, and presented that idea along with the logic I used to get to it. That simple. An idea is nothing more than that, an idea.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18961753 - 10/10/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.

Ah!  Such a wise man you are, such a wise move.  You seem to have put me to shame in this regard. :blush:

:thumbup::heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18961841 - 10/10/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.




I guess you and I are simply two different people in the sense that investing my mind in the idea that this life is all you will have, when it's over, it's over, has done the same to me, as thinking the opposite has to you. When I first thought about this it incited a degree of nihilism and apathy in me, but then again at the time I was a teenager listening to Nirvana. It's to be expected. :lol: Now the idea that this is all I get just motivates me to have the best time I can, be the best person I can be, and do the most I can while I'm here. It also makes me extraordinarily grateful in general, because I feel unbelievably lucky to have had the chance to experience this flicker of perception we call life.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18962020 - 10/10/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Must we cover this fallacy once a month always spouted off by people with nary an understanding of physics? Please explain how data = energy?



http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9230150/IBM_claims_spintronics_memory_breakthrough?pageNumber=1
^ Maybe that's how. I am far too ignorant to understand what the fuck they are really talking about, maybe someone with a higher intelligence can explain it.  :dawerp:

Quote:

Modern physics has discovered one of the greatest things ever discovered, and that is: matter is energy. That is the greatest contribution of Albert Einstein to humanity: e is equal to mc squared, matter is energy. This formula proposes that when a body has a mass, it has a certain amount of energy, even if it is at rest, and does not have any form of potential energy, chemical energy, etc, it still has that amount of energy. As opposed to the Newtonian mechanics in which a massive body could have no energy at all. That is why we often call the mass the rest energy of the body. The E of the formula can be seen as the total energy of the body, which is proportional to the mass only when the body is at rest.

Conversely, a cloud of photons travelling in empty space, with each photon having no rest mass, still have a mass, m, due to their kinetic energy.

This formula also gives the quantatative relation of energy and mass in any process when they transform into each other, such as a nuclear explosion. Then this E could be seen as the energy released when a certain amount of mass m is annihilated, or the energy absorbed to create a certain amount of mass m. In those cases, the energy released(absorbed) equals in quantity to the mass annihilated(created) times the speed of light squared. Eddington, one of the greatest scientists of this age, has said, "We used to think that matter is a thing; now it is no more so. Matter is more like a thought than like a thing."

Existence is energy. Science has discovered that the observed is energy, the object is energy. Down through the ages, at least for five thousand years, it has been known that the other polarity- the subject, the observer, consciousness- is energy.

Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy. Then what is the difference between these three? The difference is only of a different rhythm, different wavelengths, that's all. The body is gross energy functioning in a gross way, in a visible way.

Mind is a little more subtle, but still not too subtle, because you can close your eyes and you can see the thoughts moving; they can be seen. They are not as visible as your body; your body is visible to everybody else, it is publicly visible. Your thoughts are privately visible. Nobody else can see your thoughts; only you can see them, or people who have worked very deeply into seeing thoughts. But ordinarily they are not visible to others.

And the third, the ultimate layer inside you, is that of consciousness. It is not even visible to you. It cannot be reduced to an object, it remains the subject.

If you dissect a painting, you will find the canvas and the colors, but the painting is not simply the sum total of the canvas and the colors; it is something more. That "something more" is expressed through the painting, the color, the canvas, the artist, but that "something more" is the beauty. Dissect the rose flower, and you will find all the chemicals and things it is constituted of, but the beauty will disappear. It was not just the sum total of the parts, it was more.

The whole is more than the sum total of the parts. It expresses itself through the parts but it is more. To understand that it is more is to understand the "divine". The divine is that more, that plus. It is not a question of theology; it cannot be decided by logical argumentation. You have to feel beauty, you have to feel music, you have to feel dance. And ultimately you have to feel the dance in your body, mind and soul.

I have come to my conclusions through meditation and intuition, not through the scientific method. Therefore, we are at odds because if I say anything that is not provable via the scientific method then it will be rendered false or useless. The scientific method is the bible of the scientific community, anything that is presented outside the guidelines of that bible is considered blasphemous. Therefore, I have nothing left to say to you, except that I have my own view of reality.



This made me want to smoke opium while re-reading it.

Quote:

Enlightenment or Salvation seems to consist in the illusion of our temporal identities falling away, and Awakening to the Realization that we've ALWAYS been the Eternal Logos. This is what awaits those who are duly prepared for death. The Buddhists call it the Clear Light. Christians call it the Kingdom of God or Heaven.



I suppose the makes me a fallen angel. :frown:
Sometimes I really miss the old days...
Maybe I will one day ascend once again.:shrug:
If not I am certainly grateful to have had the experience.


Edited by Cactilove (10/10/13 11:33 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Cactilove]
    #18962266 - 10/11/13 12:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

As a materialist I can't help but agree with the OP. In a more spiritual frame of mind it seems prudent to step back and see the mystery of life from a less personal view. Species come and go. Worlds come and go, and probably universes come and go. But these things, they are only qualities of reality. Even universes are just a quality. In that context there is nothing which represents a beginning and nothing which represents an end. There is only the ceaseless momentum... doing whatever it does.


--------------------
rahz

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18962316 - 10/11/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Perhaps it's because I'm still young that I'm able to brush aside the idea of death so easily. But still when pondering it I feel nothing related to fear. In fact I think on a subconscious level I welcome my death. This world is full of pain, beauty, and more pain. Death honestly just seems like a wonderful escape.




"Knowledge comes with death's release."

For now, just enjoy the music. 



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18962335 - 10/11/13 01:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As a materialist I can't help but agree with the OP. In a more spiritual frame of mind it seems prudent to step back and see the mystery of life from a less personal view. Species come and go. Worlds come and go, and probably universes come and go. But these things, they are only qualities of reality. Even universes are just a quality. In that context there is nothing which represents a beginning and nothing which represents an end. There is only the ceaseless momentum... doing whatever it does.



That :feelsgoodman:  Digging it.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Cactilove]
    #18962366 - 10/11/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

where am I?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18962369 - 10/11/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A Meatbag foretelling its future how original.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Jaegar]
    #18962402 - 10/11/13 01:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Fuk i hate you cunts.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Jaegar]
    #18962440 - 10/11/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
Fuk i hate you cunts.




What a shame.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Jaegar]
    #18962642 - 10/11/13 05:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's all you baby. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18962915 - 10/11/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Now the idea that this is all I get just motivates me to have the best time I can, be the best person I can be, and do the most I can while I'm here. It also makes me extraordinarily grateful in general, because I feel unbelievably lucky to have had the chance to experience this flicker of perception we call life.




See it does the exact opposite for me because of the amount of suffering I have been through. Multiple times I have been in a situation where I didn't know if I was going to survive simply because I didn't have enough food to eat. I have lived in substantial poverty for years and I don't have any family to help me. It's only been since May of 2012 that I've really started to have a somewhat normal life, simply because I worked my fucking ass off. When you're living homeless, nobody gives a shit about your situation. People think you are the scum of the earth and could care less if you live or die. Add not having a family (both parents are dead) to that and life is a pretty shitty reality.

I'm not saying this to show pride or anything, in fact, I'm not proud of a lot of the experiences I've had. I'm telling you this to explain that, if this life is all there is, then it ain't a thing of beauty. Why would I want to be a good person if I have suffered most of my life and now I'm going to die and descend into nothingness? In fact, if that is true, then I WANT to be a bad person, I WANT others to feel the pain I've felt, I WANT to wipe the smile off of these people who have had everything handed to them.

However, when I think...

"Maybe this isn't it"

"Keep pushing man, what you do here has eternal implications"

"Don't give up, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, even if it arrives at death, there is still a light"

"I've got nothing and no one left to turn to except the universe itself"

or like Markos said:

Quote:

But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.




Yes, when I think in this way, I want to become a better person, I want to live a more wholesome life, I want to achieve goals, etc.

So maybe my thinking is flawed. Maybe there is nothingness at the end. And if so, so be it. Like I have stated before, nobody REALLY knows for sure. But, if thinking the way I do helps me to lead a better life (no matter how untrue it may be) can it really be called wrong?


--------------------


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963113 - 10/11/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Good post. All beliefs are just that.  If your beliefs do not hurt others physically and if they help you then they are the most correct beliefs imo. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18963203 - 10/11/13 09:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.

Ah!  Such a wise man you are, such a wise move.  You seem to have put me to shame in this regard. :blush:

:thumbup::heart:




And I am humbled by your response. :bow2:  All too often I have 'put all my eggs in one basket,' and suffered the consequences. To venture another financial metaphor, one needs to diversify the possibilities of our inevitable demise. This choice has the additional perk of offsetting death-anxiety a bit.  :shrug: Although, the developmental literature says that death-anxiety drops off among octogenarians. Although, my late 82 year old mother-in-law was still afraid of death, but on the day she died, toxicity from kidney failure rendered her delusional. She called us in the middle of the night to say that she was Barack Obama, and she wanted her limo to take her to D.C. immediately. I don't think Death phased her at all when he came. Sometimes nature can demonstrate kindness.

:death:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18963245 - 10/11/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.




I guess you and I are simply two different people in the sense that investing my mind in the idea that this life is all you will have, when it's over, it's over, has done the same to me, as thinking the opposite has to you. When I first thought about this it incited a degree of nihilism and apathy in me, but then again at the time I was a teenager listening to Nirvana. It's to be expected. :lol: Now the idea that this is all I get just motivates me to have the best time I can, be the best person I can be, and do the most I can while I'm here. It also makes me extraordinarily grateful in general, because I feel unbelievably lucky to have had the chance to experience this flicker of perception we call life.




A Gnostic is a 'Knower,' as opposed to an Agnostic who doesn't Know. Like Socrates, "I Know that I don't Know," but I am living my life with the possibility that physical death will be identical to, or an even better condition that I experienced during the most profoundly mystical moment of my life. The letting go was not a tortured affair filled with fear, regret, helplessness or despair. It was like slipping into a hot bath, a warm cosmic vagina of soft Clear Light and Unbearable Compassion. The final thought was an ecstatic relief from a then, young lifetime of doubt and fear, and the Realization of Total Familiarity with Reality. I had always been THAT, and the life I was leaving had been a long dream from which I was Awakening in ecstatic gratitude. Then, thoughtless, nameless, memory-less Eternal Light-Life experiencing Itself. Mark was gone.  The Infinite Ocean of Light-Compassion turned into a Infinitesimal Point of Compassion in the twinkling of an eye, and that Point became a 'seed' that grew back into Mark from the Heart Center. And Mark returned to this life. That experience was 1974, and it lives within me and informs me to this moment. I expect to experience It again when I die, and again, It will Realize that It has always Been, and It will Awaken from the Mark dream. :peace:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963275 - 10/11/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
I see what you're saying, but what I meant by non-perceivable darkness is essentially "nothingness", I just said it in a more difficult way. I know that nothingness is not perceivable. However, darkness is perceivable. Therefore, non-perceivable darkness would be nothingness. I think you know what I meant.



People in this forum always think I'm playing word games or being pedantic, but I'm not. I was saying that non-perceivable darkness is not a possible answer to the question of "what will happen to me when I die." I am saying the concept is inherently incoherent.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18963398 - 10/11/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
But I have felt compelled to make a certain amount of moderate to high risk investments, and so, investing my mind with this possibility has positive consequences for my attitude, mood, and Joie de vivre.

Ah!  Such a wise man you are, such a wise move.  You seem to have put me to shame in this regard. :blush:

:thumbup::heart:




And I am humbled by your response. :bow2:  All too often I have 'put all my eggs in one basket,' and suffered the consequences. To venture another financial metaphor, one needs to diversify the possibilities of our inevitable demise. This choice has the additional perk of offsetting death-anxiety a bit.  :shrug: Although, the developmental literature says that death-anxiety drops off among octogenarians. Although, my late 82 year old mother-in-law was still afraid of death, but on the day she died, toxicity from kidney failure rendered her delusional. She called us in the middle of the night to say that she was Barack Obama, and she wanted her limo to take her to D.C. immediately. I don't think Death phased her at all when he came. Sometimes nature can demonstrate kindness.

:death:






I don't know if it's conscious kindness but there are natural mechanisms that help with the pain of death.  Going into shock comes to mind.

It has now become evident (in a grokked way)  to me that how we feel about life and death is mostly subjective.  You have chosen wisely and I mean that.  I may have not had the ability to make such a choice for myself due to the fact that I did not know I was choosing until recently (again grokked) . However my choice in how I view things, while being hard, is not without it's rewards and I'm glad for them.  The task now will be to see if at this advanced age I can move ever so slightly in your direction. I have plumbed the depths of my current belief system it seems and a change would seriously do me some good.  Believe it or not my use of Kratom seems to be opening up a door for such a move.:mushroom2:  Time will tell.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18963561 - 10/11/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Your humility won't save you from judgement.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963602 - 10/11/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry that life has been so cruel to you. Also congratulations on being one awesome human being and working your way out of that. Respect.

What Icelander said. As long as your beliefs are your's and your's alone, and they help you be the best person you could be, they're the right beliefs. Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18963726 - 10/11/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.




I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I've developed what I like to call my own personal a la carte religion. I've taken (what I believe to be) the best teachings from the East and the West, and I've combined them to form my own super religion. I have thrown out all the unnecessary bullshit (like virgin births, salvation through atonement and the notion of a literal place of punishment called hell) and I have taken the most impactful teachings of Hinduism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism and Essene Christianity to make for one exciting spiritual mix. Some like to call me a universalist, but I prefer to not label myself. Anyway, even if none of it is true it still brings me a lot of peace, motivation, and energy (among other positive things) and I can't wait to wake up the next day and learn even more! :smile:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18963779 - 10/11/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Really I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if the organization of it hadn't had such clearly detrimental effects on, without exaggeration, the whole of humanity.




I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I've developed what I like to call my own personal a la carte religion. I've taken (what I believe to be) the best teachings from the East and the West, and I've combined them to form my own super religion. I have thrown out all the unnecessary bullshit (like virgin births, salvation through atonement and the notion of a literal place of punishment called hell) and I have taken the most impactful teachings of Hinduism, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism and Essene Christianity to make for one exciting spiritual mix. Some like to call me a universalist, but I prefer to not label myself. Anyway, even if none of it is true it still brings me a lot of peace, motivation, and energy (among other positive things) and I can't wait to wake up the next day and learn even more! :smile:




See that I can respect, you're thinking for yourself. While such an idea is naught among the general religious population. As long as it does good for you, in turn the people around you, keep it up. :thumbup::heart:


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MR.Merlin]
    #18964240 - 10/11/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the spirit or "soul" if you will has been measured and weighed.

BZZZT! How many times is this bullshit going to keep turning up here before people will take the smallest fucking step at critical thinking and looking into outrageous claims rather than gullibly swallowing any nonsense so long as it aligns with their pre-conclusions while rejecting basic physics?

No, the soul has not been measured or weighted, and anyone with a 6th grade science education and the slightest ability to think critically will be immediately suspicious of any claims to the contrary.

Here is the truth:

This rumor started in 1911 when Dr. Duncan MacDougall attempted to prove that the human soul existed and had weight. To this end, he put six of his terminally ill patients on beds suspended on scales to determine the patient's weight just before and just after death. The supposition being that when the patient died and the soul left the body, the weight of the body would drop.

When scrutinized, it's found that his experiment used horribly flawed methods, was subject to large experimental errors an order larger than his experimental results, had no control group, and in the end produced inconsistent data at best. More telling is the fact that he claimed to have proven that the soul weighs 21 grams even though the variability of his of his experimental scales was on the order of hundreds of grams.

Despite the fact that if his research were valid, it would have turned the world of medicine on its head and created an entire new branch of science, MacDougall did not make any more tests after 1911. You know why? Because he was fully aware that his work was bullshit with no results as confirmatory follow up tests would have shown. But he was too mired in ego and death anxiety to face the truth and admit this.

Naturally, others have since tried to reproduce MacDougall's results as anyone who could reproduce these results would certainly win the Nobel Prize and become rich and famous. Guess what? No one has ever been able to. Duh!

this experiment has been mimicked with success as well.

Nope.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Diploid]
    #18964252 - 10/11/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you used more than 10% of your brain, you will be able to actually 'see' the soul.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964315 - 10/11/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't like it when people say "you only use 10% of your brain". That's bullshit. You use 100% of your brain. A large amount of your brains processing capacity goes towards the maintenance of your body, the only thing I'm listing cause it's the only thing that comes to mind in this stoned state. If 100% went into thinking, seeing, whatever, you'd die.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964325 - 10/11/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So you can't see a soul either, then?


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964416 - 10/11/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Can you?


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964437 - 10/11/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964452 - 10/11/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So no, it's okay though, no one can :stoned:. That looks more like symbolism for the light of an inspired being, shining through than a soul to me. I've seen aura's on LSD, even then it wasn't a visual thing, it was more like I felt the persons personality by just looking at them.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/11/13 03:08 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18964573 - 10/11/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Cool post man. I dig it. :thumbup: I've thought similar things to relieve some of my Death Anxiety.

The anxiety from Death Anxiety arises from being a biological being. Becker says in the Denial of Death that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution.

A question that looms over my mind from idea like your OP are, if we lower our shields to look at our mortality, and comfortably accept death like you've laid out, then how can we live life without these shields? Or are these just more shields that we're building to deal with the prospect of our mortality?

Something in DA literature that always seems to be persisting is that, DA is so primal and interwoven in our being, that we need shields to operate. So are we just layering shields? Is your idea of death just another shield?


--------------------
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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964592 - 10/11/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:





:gameover:


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: r72rock]
    #18964660 - 10/11/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Cool post man. I dig it. :thumbup: I've thought similar things to relieve some of my Death Anxiety.

The anxiety from Death Anxiety arises from being a biological being. Becker says in the Denial of Death that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution.

A question that looms over my mind from idea like your OP are, if we lower our shields to look at our mortality, and comfortably accept death like you've laid out, then how can we live life without these shields? Or are these just more shields that we're building to deal with the prospect of our mortality?

Something in DA literature that always seems to be persisting is that, DA is so primal and interwoven in our being, that we need shields to operate. So are we just layering shields? Is your idea of death just another shield?




Good questions. I guess the way I look at it is that humans, having built civilization, discovered a way to sort of overcome biological imperatives, or instinct. We started off as hunters, now that we have such a ridiculous amount of food, and systems to easily and with a degree of sustainability obtain that food, we no longer need to hunt, we no longer need to spend so much time thinking about survival. We have developed a level of comfort which allows us to instinctually transcend our ancestors in every way. No longer do we need hunters, instead we have people devoting there lives to the gathering of knowledge, to art, to music, to things that in the old days would have been completely impractical and of no help to the survival of humanity. This is analogous to my feelings about death. I feel we can overcome the shield, the denial of death, realize that it's a part of life, and a beautiful one at that. If we were to accept our mortality, in the most critical light, which is when you die, you cease to exist, and be comfortable with the fact; we would no longer spend such an incredible amount of effort pondering the thought, and looking for a way out of it. The same way a sustainable food source gave us the freedom to build ourselves as individuals; the acceptance of death could potentially give us the freedom to focus on this place, focus on being alive, and doing the most you can do while you're here. Imagine if the millenia we spent developing our religions, which are undeniably used to bring comfort to the our understanding of our own mortality, was instead spent on something more practical, and relevant to this time and place.

Just as further evidence of this idea, we have a biological imperative to reproduce, to keep the species going. What happens when we develop the technology to do so artificially? We are already on the way. We can already alter DNA in order to create a more "perfect" human being. What happens when we come to the point of a Brave New World-esque society? The biological imperative to reproduce is no longer needed. We have a sustainable, and much more reliable source of human life. So we toss the instinct aside, and, at least this is what I would do, focus on pleasure. We no longer do this for babies, we do this solely for the sake of pleasure. Thus our biology evolves to be more pleasure centered, as that's what we need of it. This is all speculation, please correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18964745 - 10/11/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So you can't see a soul either, then?

I can. :ohwell:



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Diploid]
    #18964758 - 10/11/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What's it like?


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18968007 - 10/12/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
Good questions. I guess the way I look at it is that humans, having built civilization, discovered a way to sort of overcome biological imperatives, or instinct. We started off as hunters, now that we have such a ridiculous amount of food, and systems to easily and with a degree of sustainability obtain that food, we no longer need to hunt, we no longer need to spend so much time thinking about survival. We have developed a level of comfort which allows us to instinctually transcend our ancestors in every way. No longer do we need hunters, instead we have people devoting there lives to the gathering of knowledge, to art, to music, to things that in the old days would have been completely impractical and of no help to the survival of humanity. This is analogous to my feelings about death. I feel we can overcome the shield, the denial of death, realize that it's a part of life, and a beautiful one at that. If we were to accept our mortality, in the most critical light, which is when you die, you cease to exist, and be comfortable with the fact; we would no longer spend such an incredible amount of effort pondering the thought, and looking for a way out of it. The same way a sustainable food source gave us the freedom to build ourselves as individuals; the acceptance of death could potentially give us the freedom to focus on this place, focus on being alive, and doing the most you can do while you're here. Imagine if the millenia we spent developing our religions, which are undeniably used to bring comfort to the our understanding of our own mortality, was instead spent on something more practical, and relevant to this time and place.

Just as further evidence of this idea, we have a biological imperative to reproduce, to keep the species going. What happens when we develop the technology to do so artificially? We are already on the way. We can already alter DNA in order to create a more "perfect" human being. What happens when we come to the point of a Brave New World-esque society? The biological imperative to reproduce is no longer needed. We have a sustainable, and much more reliable source of human life. So we toss the instinct aside, and, at least this is what I would do, focus on pleasure. We no longer do this for babies, we do this solely for the sake of pleasure. Thus our biology evolves to be more pleasure centered, as that's what we need of it. This is all speculation, please correct me if I'm wrong.




That was very thought provoking. I'm still kinda processing what you said. Overall, I believe I follow you and agree. I'm mostly thinking about your last paragraph and what it'd mean for humanity.

:cheers:


--------------------
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18968229 - 10/12/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968291 - 10/12/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:




Right there with ya! :mindblown:

What you said about your mother reminded me of some similar things that I have heard from near-death experience research. In my research on NDEs, I found it rather peculiar that experiencers essentially "got what they wanted" upon death. It was as if what was seen after death was a direct karmic reaction to the life lived on earth.

For example, when researching the realm of the void (a spiritual dimension that exists within us; a place for souls to examine their own mind, contemplate their recent earth experience, and decide where they want to go next) I discovered that for some, the void is a beautiful and heavenly experience because, in the absence of all else, they are able to perfectly see the love and light they have cultivated within themselves.

For other souls, the void is a terrifying and horrible hell because, in the absence of everything, they are able to perfectly see within themselves the lack of love and light they have cultivated within themselves.

So this "void" experience after death had the potential to be heavenly or hellish depending on the intentions, nature, character, etc. of the soul. To me that just means that, whether there's an afterlife or not, love and light are still the only pathways to freedom and bliss.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968297 - 10/12/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

if death is like an infinite acid trip where the whole universe seems like my body, i'd be most pleased too :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968564 - 10/12/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The same conclusions are arrived at by many people it would seem. It's up to each of us to experience our departure in our own time.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #18968685 - 10/12/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Here is the real inside scoop:



--------------------


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Offlinechutney
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18968730 - 10/12/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
After all, energy does not cease to be but rather continues on whilst donning alternate forms along the way.





I hear this a lot, but I think the reality of this is far less grandiose and a more logical (though arguably disappointing) explanation is at hand... I think it may be more something like this:

The energy which you consist of is basically metabolic energy that powers cellular processes and functioning... After all, how does a corpse differ from a living person? One- the corpse- has simply ceased the cellular operation and metabolic processes which power the organs and tissue systems and provide energy to a living entity, thereby keeping it alive. So I think it would be something more along the lines of; when you die and your body is eventually returned to the earth, you are eaten by bugs and worms and your body is thus broken down by their digestive systems to provide them energy. So that energy which sustained you is now transferred to the insects which feast on your corpse? Or if your corpse is cremated, it provides fuel for the fire, and therefore the energy is transferred that way?

I could be way off the mark here, I don't know jack shit about physics and for the sake of clarity (and not making an ass of myself) probably shouldn't even be speculating... but fuck it, I'm high :drag:

Somebody please explain this shit to me


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18968793 - 10/12/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is the real inside scoop:






If death has a soundtrack, I'd prefer something a little more ambient to merge with



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: chutney]
    #18968806 - 10/12/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think you're on the right track, and from a scientific standpoint, I think you are correct.

I have not (nor has anyone else) been able to prove that consciousness is energy. Beyond that, one also has to ask themselves: is the brain a generator of consciousness or a receiver of consciousness, or...possibly, is it both?

Anyway, I think you are correct in your thinking. It's like when Robin William's is talking to his boys in Dead Poet's Society:

"They're not that different from you, are they? Same haircuts. Full of hormones, just like you. Invincible, just like you feel. The world is their oyster. They believe they're destined for great things, just like many of you, their eyes are full of hope, just like you. Did they wait until it was too late to make from their lives even one iota of what they were capable? Because, you see gentlemen, these boys are now fertilizing daffodils. But if you listen real close, you can hear them whisper their legacy to you. Go on, lean in. Listen, you hear it? - - Carpe - - hear it? - - Carpe, carpe diem, seize the day boys, make your lives extraordinary."

"Williams: "Seize the day. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may." Why does the writer use these lines?

Charlie: Because he's in a hurry.

Williams: No. Ding! Thank you for playing anyway. Because we are food for worms, lads. Because, believe it or not, each and every one of us in this room is one day going to stop breathing, turn cold and die."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18968964 - 10/12/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is the real inside scoop:






Gee wiz Mr. Peabody, that was great. I always thought that was a way cool song! Music was truly musical back then


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18968976 - 10/12/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
So I've been thinking about death a lot, and have come to the conclusion that death is equivalent to a deep, dreamless sleep. Your perception of yourself, this world, time, everything really, is null and void; just like a dreamless sleep. Except in the case of death you just never wake up.

How have I come to the conclusion that when you die you return to nothingness?

Easy. What makes us who we are? Our memories of course. Our experiences and the growth we go through as people is only possible because of our brains unique memory storage capabilities. If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self. Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally. It's because of this concept of past self and future self that we are able to be so... conscious. Now, since our memories are stored, processed, and relived all by the brain, it's logically conclusive that when the brain dies, in other words you die, so do your memories. All of that life experience, all of that raw experiential data you built up over the years, poof. Dust in the wind. You as a person, being that person because of your memories, cease to exist.

Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it. Sure life is bitterly beautiful, but at the end of yours, you're gonna be tired, if you lived that is. This place is a bizarre mystery, and I'm sure it's gonna leave us all confused enough for a lifetime. So why the anxiety from returning to nothingness, you did come from there after all. Instead of seeing death as some awfully dark and inescapable fact of life, or using religion to escape the fact altogether... Why not see death as a return to an old friend. Finally you get some peace of mind. Doesn't seem so bad to me.




I think you're on to something here. 

Some things about this subject are quite clear and supported by contemporary physics, however these things do not tell the entire story.

We know that energy and matter are freely (in a literary sense) convertible between one and the other.

We also know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

Neither of these statements are controversial, that is, they are universally accepted as accurate by the scientific community.  However, after this, things get a bit murky.

I have a recurrent memory that seems to pop up un-bidden every 10 years or so.  This, by the way, is the earliest memory I have.  I was an infant, probably about a year old, standing in my crib and holding onto the crib-rail to keep upright.  I'm relatively sure that this was before I developed the ability to speak and communicate that way, but if I'm wrong, that doesn't matter anyway.

I was just idly wondering where the life-force that was animating me then, had been before I existed.  I also wondered, equally idly, what would happen to it when I no longer existed.  This wondering was in no way 'deep thought,' it was simply idle curiosity.

But the significance of it, at least to me, was the total lack of any belief about that, or any other thing, coupled with the total assurance that a) something animated me; b) Whatever it was, it existed before me; and c) it would continue to exist and that at some point, I would not.

With me, that point gets closer all the time.  I'm currently 74 and two years into a 5-year journey that has no survivors at the end of that period.  You may safely conclude that I have an interest in this subject.  But be careful about what you read into what I'm saying here beyond that.

OC, your statements about "Information being totally unrelated to energy" puzzle me.
I would be interested in knowing your reasoning.  But I digress...

I know that the Tibetans have "studied" (in this case, a highly complex process) the subject of death quite extensively and have more than 1200 years (more than 2000, I'm sure, but unable to support with documentation for that figure) and have a very well established and formal process for getting through what happens next (fi anything.)

This practice, they believe, guides the "essence. soul, or whatever is left (if anything)" when the body dies.  Their goal is first, to exit stage) left from the wheel of life, death and rebirth; and failing that, exit the (49 day death process into as beneficial a reincarnation as possible.

They describe a series of events that follow the death of the body.  Amazingly, this parallels two other descriptions of events:  Trip reports from Level 5 trips, and NDEs as so well documented and reported by Elizabeth Kübler-Ross in "Death and Dying."

They believe that the first thing that happens is the destruction of the Ego, and from that, the dead suffers from great initial confusion, so much that they cannot go to and merge with "the Light," (aka, Void, Ground of existence, the transcendent;) but that with training (meditation for many year under an experienced Guru) the mind can be trained to survive this initial confusion.

It was this fact that led me here in the first place.

Now those of you who refuse to consider the possibility of anything that can't be seen, felt, touched, tasted or otherwise detected by the 5 (recognized) senses will reject any valid connection among these things, but I accept the possibility that there is merit to them.

That is, I do believe that the life force does not die because it is energy.  I believe that it goes to and reanimate some other life-form. 

However, like the OP, I do not believe that the PERSONALITY, the storehouse of memories, likes and dislikes, and the like, survives.

As to physics, I think it dangerous to state that something involving (for lack of a better term,) the spirit, is impossible.  The field of physics is expanding like a veritable explosion of new information. 

Quantum physics and string theory were completely unknown when I graduated with a BSE in 1961, and for a physicist to express the the idea that there mighty be 11 dimensions rather than 3 (or 4, counting time) would lead to universal opprobrium from his/her peers.

"The Tao of Physics" was written by Frijof Kapra when he was director of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Institute, and "the Dancing Wu-Li Masters by Gary Zukoff, winner of The American Book Award for Science.

Both of these books opened my eyes to considering that the visible physical world is just the tip of the iceberg of reality.

Well, this is long enough.  I'll touch on death anxiety a bit later.  But it can be overcome and banished.  I have none.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969001 - 10/12/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.



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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969058 - 10/12/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.






Digital "remastering" is the scourge of many a fine piece of music.  Oh sure we had to make it fit a CD.  Then you got some joker says "oh sure Jimi really wanted to change this or that" cause we know better now. 

Well fuck that, leave the music the way it was.  Vinyl still sounds better, than ever, even the supposedly "worn out" ones.  If a CD gets scratched a little too much, or gets some crud on it, it may cease to play completely or skip in a way that is particularly annoying.

Yeah thanks modern technology, you found a way to make things smaller and sound shittier than a 40 year old album.  Great.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969062 - 10/12/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Music was truly musical back then




You're right, it should have made Andrew Lloyd Weber's cut...


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18969170 - 10/12/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Most pre-80s radio cuts were mastered to sound good for very lo-fi speakers on AM radio as that was the largest market for top 40 hits. Any audiophile should be aware of this.

Hell, sub-woofers were not even mainstream until the mid-70s. Do you really believe that oldies were optimized for today's sound systems? That recording engineers back then knew what was coming technology-wise 30-40 years hence? :rolleyes:


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969221 - 10/12/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969228 - 10/12/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It sounds better this time around. Now because of nostalgia, but because they mixed tracks mainly for cheap car stereos and speakers back then. Remastering for today's technology makes a big improvement.







That's not always true. They still remaster for walkman type devices with cheap ear phones and so bass balance is lousy often on the remixed cd on a good home stereo. I often prefer the originals as do other audiophiles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969268 - 10/12/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

remastered only to be served to the masses of youtube once again, encoded at a lowly 128kbps bitrate....


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18969280 - 10/12/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Basically, one size does not fit all. When synesthesia tech comes along, the savvy recording engineer will have to add prismatic color to the music.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18969292 - 10/12/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Most pre-80s radio cuts were mastered to sound good for very lo-fi speakers on AM radio as that was the largest market for top 40 hits. Any audiophile should be aware of this.

Hell, sub-woofers were not even mainstream until the mid-70s. Do you really believe that oldies were optimized for today's sound systems? That recording engineers back then knew what was coming technology-wise 30-40 years hence? :rolleyes:




You had a tin ear then, and now.  Just admit it and we can move on.  I remember when your JBL speakers were your pride and joy.  Talk about a colored speaker!  Yet you were thrilled with the out of balance frequency curve.  Tin ear.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18969565 - 10/12/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The same conclusions are arrived at by many people it would seem.






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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18969616 - 10/12/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just 'cuz you feel it
Doesn't mean it's there


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18970112 - 10/12/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say information was totally unrelated to energy, rather that it is not convertible to energy. The information in the brain can't be changed into energy which still contains that information. It's illogical.

As for the whole inability to merge with the light due to confusion, I've experienced that on acid. I remember being sure of my own death, in a very materialistic sense. I was scared, terrified really, then I sort of went through this thought process I've expressed except it was a fraction of a second, and I realized I wasn't afraid of death. I was completely comfortable with ceasing to exist. Then I merged with the universe and became one with the "tapestry of souls" as I put it. The most poignant aspect of that trip in retrospect was that when I merged, I had no memory of myself here. I wasn't me anymore. I was the universe. I no longer existed as the person I was on this planet. It was quite interesting, but I try hard not to take the things I experience on these drugs too seriously, as after all, I have injested a mind altering substance.

The energy from our bodies does move onto other life lol. In the form of food for worms as ConfettiHead referenced. (Gonna have to check that movie out, sounds really good).

I understand that reality is so far beyond our comprehension that it's worthless to even think about these things. That's really my whole point. There's no point in trying to understand death as anything beyond nothingness, as even if there is an afterlife, whatever experiences it after you die is not you. It is a form of transformed energy. Thus, you, as in you here, are gone. Poof. I feel that life would be more well spent focusing on the here and now and how to improve it, rather than on how to prepare for what may or may not come after death. It's irrational to do so IMO.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18970217 - 10/12/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.




Hmmm. Where does one get this? Florida makes everything Schedule I as soon as they hear about it. They're afraid of more zombies down here (zombie is a Haitian word of course, so it figures).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18970294 - 10/12/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I haven't tried Kratom, although I have taken your advice to heart in the past. I do not have an affinity with narcotics. Vicodin for example gives me a broad measles-like task across my chest, but I don't like my awareness being sunken into semi-consciousness. Maybe this is partly why I childishly fight sleeping and stay up to all hours (not good for my diurnal cycles I'm sure). I have repeatedly failed to germinate poppy seeds, even the real ones which came unsolicited with something completely unrelated in the mail. It's like a :nono: from God. I might really like it, especially since I haven't used cannabis more than 10-12 times since 1979.

I'm glad that a certain logic has been "grokked in fullness." The Realizations promised in life by so many systems of belief may in fact occur when death quite forcibly kills our egoic defenses. Long ago it occurred to me that the Light of Unmitigated Reality comes as heaven or Hell depending upon our openness or resistance. My atheist mother, for example, seemed to be terrified of the possibility of a Great Light when she was closer than I knew to death. Darkness of sleep was at least comprehensible, if not saddening. But 'something' over 'nothing' seemed to terrify her. I, on the other hand, will be pleased to lose myself in unimaginable vistas of Infinity.

:psychsplit:






In medium to low doses Kratom is a very mellow stimulant rather than depressive.  That's mostly how I use it.  It gives the most mellow and expansive energy boost imo without any of the negatives associated with speed. Lots of positive energy vibes.




Hmmm. Where does one get this? Florida makes everything Schedule I as soon as they hear about it. They're afraid of more zombies down here (zombie is a Haitian word of course, so it figures).





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#United_States

Kratom itself is not regulated by the United States federal government, though the Drug Enforcement Administration includes the tree in its "Drug and Chemical of Concern" list.[26]
Indiana House of Representatives HB1196, sponsored by Edward DeLaney, Steve Davisson, Terri Austin, Vernon G. Smith, and David Yarde during the 2012 regular session as a response to increasing synthetic drug use, made Indiana the first and only state to ban chemicals in kratom, although indirectly.[27] The text of the bill added kratom's two active alkaloids—mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine—to the state's list of controlled substances, though kratom itself is not synthetic and was not specifically addressed by the authors of the bill. Due to kratom not be being on the banned plants list nor being a synthetic, kratom is still legal in Indiana. Although most interpreted the law wrong, kratom was never banned and is still legal in Indiana.
Iowa legislators grouped Mitragyna speciosa as a synthetic cannabinoid when a bill was proposed that would reclassify nearly all controlled substances in their state.[28][29] The Louisiana legislature proposed an age limit of 18 to be able to legally purchase, possess and consume kratom. Violators would have been assessed a penalty of no more than $500, or sentenced to six months in jail, or both.[30] Massachusetts Representative Daniel K. Webster sponsored legislation in 2011 that would have included compounds of Mitragyna speciosa in the state's controlled substance classification list.[31]


~~

This is where things seem to stand.

My personal experience was a strong, warm, fuzzy, opiate like high (but short lived, about a half hour body buzz), with a boring, sedative comedown.  I may have taken a higher dose, but consumed as a tea as opposed to encapsulated :shrug: : It's been a decade though, and  I've became moderately curious to reevaluate with recent talk on the forums... so ordered from a Portland vendor last night actually.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18971346 - 10/13/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
I didn't say information was totally unrelated to energy, rather that it is not convertible to energy. The information in the brain can't be changed into energy which still contains that information. It's illogical.

As for the whole inability to merge with the light due to confusion, I've experienced that on acid. I remember being sure of my own death, in a very materialistic sense. I was scared, terrified really, then I sort of went through this thought process I've expressed except it was a fraction of a second, and I realized I wasn't afraid of death. I was completely comfortable with ceasing to exist. Then I merged with the universe and became one with the "tapestry of souls" as I put it. The most poignant aspect of that trip in retrospect was that when I merged, I had no memory of myself here. I wasn't me anymore. I was the universe. I no longer existed as the person I was on this planet. It was quite interesting, but I try hard not to take the things I experience on these drugs too seriously, as after all, I have injested a mind altering substance.

The energy from our bodies does move onto other life lol. In the form of food for worms as ConfettiHead referenced. (Gonna have to check that movie out, sounds really good).

I understand that reality is so far beyond our comprehension that it's worthless to even think about these things. That's really my whole point. There's no point in trying to understand death as anything beyond nothingness, as even if there is an afterlife, whatever experiences it after you die is not you. It is a form of transformed energy. Thus, you, as in you here, are gone. Poof. I feel that life would be more well spent focusing on the here and now and how to improve it, rather than on how to prepare for what may or may not come after death. It's irrational to do so IMO.





Good post. :thumbup: But I must ask, what about radio waves? Or other electromagnetic waves put off by electronic devices? Aren't we able to send information from one side of the globe to the other simply because of these energy waves? It's all a part of the broad electromagnetic spectrum, the sun being the greatest source of that type of energy. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just speculating here, but isn't that essentially information converted to energy?

Aside from that, I'd have to agree with you that pondering such matters (like the existence of the soul or afterlife) really is a waste of time. We will not come to a conclusive end on the matter anytime soon, I don't think. Interestingly enough, the more I discourse on it, the more I realize that it is folly. It reminds me of when the Buddha was asked if there is a soul or not:

Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks,

'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman?'

The Buddha is silent.

'Then Venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?'

Again the Buddha is silent.

Vacchagotta gets up and goes away.

The main point: The Buddha regarded soul-speculation as useless and illusory.

I, on the other hand, enjoy soul-speculation because the "what if" of it all gives me a grand sense of wonder, as if I were a child again or as if I was on some heavy psychotropic chemicals again. :mushroom2: But the deeper I go, the deeper I realize that pondering such matters may not be the best use of my time.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18971387 - 10/13/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry for double posting, but while we were on the topic of information converted to energy, I found something interesting:



For the first time, scientists have converted information into pure energy, experimentally verifying a thought experiment first proposed 150 years ago.

The idea was originally formulated by physicist James Clerk Maxwell, but it gained controversy because it appeared to violate the second law of thermodynamics. Put in experimental terms, this law states that when hot and cold water are mixed, they will eventually reach an equilibrium middling temperature.

Maxwell proposed that a hypothetical being (later dubbed Maxwell's demon) could separate the water into two compartments and reverse the process, isolating hot molecules from cold by letting only the hotter-than-average through a trap-door between the compartments.

Because mixed water is considered more disordered (i.e. of higher entropy) than separated water, the demon has converted a system from a state of disorder to a state of order, using only information (the knowledge of which molecules were hot and cold).

That seemed to violate the law, which also states that entropy should not decrease in an isolated system. In other words, the demon should not have been able to separate the hot and cold water without expending energy.

Later Hungarian physicist Leó Szilárd proposed that the process does not violate the laws of physics, because the demon would in fact have had to expend some energy to ascertain which molecules are hot and cold.

Putting it into action

While scientists have continued to debate the theory, never before has anyone put the experiment into action.
Recently, physicist Shoichi Toyabe of Chuo University in Japan and colleagues did just that.

"Nowadays we have the technology, even single molecules can be observed and we can control very small elements very quickly, so in principle it's not difficult to make a kind of Maxwell's demon," said study coauthor Masaki Sano of the University of Tokyo.

The researchers set up a very miniature version of a spiral staircase and caused a molecule to climb up this staircase using information.

In the setup, the staircase was actually made of potential energy and created using electric fields. The molecule had some thermal energy – heat – so it would fluctuate, moving in random directions.

The scientists used a high-speed camera to photograph the molecule. When it happened to be moving up the staircase, they let it move freely, but when it happened to be moving down the staircase, the researchers blocked its motion by inserting a virtual wall using an electric field.

"It's like the particle is making random steps up or down, but only when the particle goes up the stairs, we put some wall on the stairs to avoid the particle falling down," Sano told LiveScience. "This is kind of a Maxwell's demon."

As the particle moved up the staircase, it gained energy because it moved to a location of higher potential – akin to climbing a mountain. Yet the researchers never had to push the particle up the mountain (i.e. do work or input energy) – they simply used the information about which direction it happened to be moving in at any given time to guide the climb.

Energy boost

Not only were the researchers able to move the particle up the stairs, but they were able to precisely measure how much energy was converted from information.

The researchers describe their results in the Nov. 14 online edition of the journal Nature Physics.

In an accompanying essay in the same issue of the journal, physicist Christian Van den Broeck of the University of Hasselt in Belgium, who was not involved in the new study, called it "a direct verification of information-to-energy conversion."

While the experiment itself does show that it's possible to create energy out of information, in practice, the technique doesn't offer potential for solving the energy crisis any time soon.

"The true energetic cost of this information-to-energy conversion experiment lies somewhat hidden in its huge peripheral apparatus (including the doctoral student who is operating the experiment)," Van den Broeck wrote. "As such, the experiment is reminiscent of producing a tiny shot of energy from nuclear fusion in a reactor that is consuming considerably more energy."

-taken from livescience.com

Now I'm not sure what the implications of this experiment are on life and death and the hereafter. I'm still trying to figure all of that out. But, I must say, this is an interesting experiment nonetheless.


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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18971920 - 10/13/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That really is interesting.

In response to ConfettiHead, I feel I need to clarify. The way I look at it, memory, which makes who we are, is stored in the brain, in the form of networks of neurons I believe. When you die, your brain dies. Those networks are not somehow transformed into energy still containing that information. They die, they rot in the ground, and give the decomposers something to decompose. Your body is transformed into energy by decomposers, which are then eaten by whatever is next in the food chain. The energy you are made of, in the form of your biology, doesn't just turn into energy on its own, rather it travels through the food chain, providing energy for other forms of life.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/13/13 11:49 AM)


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18972043 - 10/13/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Stellarshnap and ConfettiHead,

I actually agree with most of your analyses (and the one about the energy being converted to more life through the decay process is especially insightful,) with the following reservation:

From current physics, we know that there are more than the three dimensions (four, counting time) that we can detect. 

As I see it, when we talk about what happens in death and afterwards, we are talking about what is reasonable to assume in terms of our knowledge of this three or four dimensional world of our daily lives.

But we know that there are more than those, so I see our attempts to describe this as being as futile as a hypothetical person in a two-dimensional world (a Photo, for example) trying to determine the size of a three dimensional ball.

The ball, intersected by the plane of the two dimensional world, would be seen by us in the three dimensional "real world" as a dome, but in the two dimensional world, that dome would only be seen as a straight line.  The observer's vision could not leave the plane and the curvature we see would not show unless the observer could rise above the plane.

Observing the fate of the energy of life at the moment of death is akin to the two-dimensional observer trying to determine anything about his observations of the three dimensional ball.

It will always be impossible, and for reasons that the universe that we live in imposes limitations that are both unknowable to us, and impossible to overcome.

In my case, I have no expectations but I do recognize possibilities.  My ultimate goal, if indeed it can be so phrased, is to get off the wheel (if such exists) and not have another turn.

That may well happen, but it may equally be for reasons currently unknowable, that range from the simple fact that there is no "universal energy field," or "Void," or any other term of art for what lies after death.  There may simply be nothing.

That's cool also.  However, the prudent man, even one with no expectations, will prepare for what he believes is a reasonably possible outcome.  I am reasonably confident that there are more than four dimensions and I believe that this may be involved at death.

But that's just me and my milage.  Your's may definitely vary, and that's cool too.


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18972088 - 10/13/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, I didn't need you to clarify. I completely understood your position, that's why I added to it by throwing in the Dead Poet's Society lines about humans becoming fertilizer for daffodils and food for worms. But again, you are basing your position on the belief that the brain is the sole source of consciousness and that consciousness cannot exist outside of that brain.

The existence of consciousness as dependent on or independent of brain function continues to be a heated debate among researchers, medical professionals, philosophers, and those involved in spirituality. What is consciousness and why is it such a hotly debated topic?

Research on consciousness has been underway at a number of prestigious educational institutions for years. Medical professionals are researching consciousness as they study the near-death experiences (NDE) of patients under controlled conditions and in large self-report studies. Other medical professionals have experienced their own NDEs which have completely flipped their understanding of the involvement of the brain with consciousness.

Gary Schwartz, Professor of psychology, medicine, neurology, psychiatry, and surgery at the University of Arizona and Director of its Laboratory for Advances in Consciousness and Health, has a solid track record in research related to the nature of consciousness. Based on his extensive research published in peer-reviewed journals and several books, Schwartz contends in “The Afterlife Experiments: Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death” that “consciousness exists independently of the brain. It does not depend upon the brain for its survival. Mind is first, the brain is second. The brain is not the creator of mind; it is a powerful tool of the mind. The brain is an antenna/receiver for the mind, like a sophisticated television or cell phone.”

Faculty members in the Division of Perceptual Studies, at the University of Virginia, presented in 2007 a rigorous and exhaustive analysis of the data on out-of-body consciousness in “Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century.” Their work emphasizes the need to understand such phenomena in order to comprehend the reality of our existence.

Pim van Lommel, MD, has been systematically studying near death experiences for more than 20 years by interviewing hospital patients who survived a cardiac arrest soon after that experience. van Lommel’s research methodology enhances the strength of his findings because the medical details of each subject are objectively confirmed and documented in contrast to retrospective studies which rely solely on subject recall years after the event. One of the primary contributions of his book, “Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-death Experience,” is van Lommel’s detailed application of quantum theory to the near-death experience presented in an effort to understand the results of his NDE research. According to van Lommel, “Quantum theory cannot explain consciousness, but in conjunction with the results and conclusions from NDE research it can contribute to a better understanding of the transition or interface between consciousness and the brain. The brain and the body merely function as an interface or relay station to receive part of our total consciousness and part of our memories into our waking consciousness. Ultimately, we cannot avoid the conclusion that endless consciousness has always been and always will be, independent of the body.”

Jeffrey Long, MD, started the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation in 1998 and, through his data collection instrument on their website, has collected detailed evidence on NDEs from individuals around the world. Based on this research, Long contends in “Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences” that “the level of consciousness and alertness during near-death experiences is usually greater than that experienced during everyday life, even though NDEs generally occur while a person is unconscious or clinically dead.” One surprising element that Long’s research discovered supporting consciousness as independent of the brain is that “normal or supernormal vision occurs in near-death experiences among those with significantly impaired vision or even legal blindness.”

Eben Alexander, MD, is a neurosurgeon who had his own near-death experience during a 7-day coma resulting from E. coli meningitis detailed in the book “Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife.” During his coma, Alexander’s neocortex was nonfunctional which allowed him to systematically disprove and eliminate six medical-model explanations for his NDE experiences. Alexander subsequently changed his perspective on consciousness from being dependent on the brain to consciousness being independent of the brain. The video accompanying this article contains an interview with Eben Alexander regarding his NDE.

In closing, Alexander composed a beautiful passage on a possible spiritual function of the relationship between consciousness and the brain. He writes, “To understand how the brain might actually block our access to knowledge of the higher worlds, we need to accept – at least hypothetically and for the moment – that the brain itself doesn’t produce consciousness. That it is, instead, a kind of reducing valve or filter, shifting the larger, nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds down into a more limited capacity for the duration of our mortal lives. There is, from the earthly perspective, a very definite advantage to this. Just as our brains work hard every moment of our waking lives to filter out the barrage of sensory information coming at us from our physical surroundings, selecting the material we actually need in order to survive, so it is that forgetting out trans-earthly identities also allows us to be ‘here and now’ far more effectively. Just as most of ordinary life holds too much information for us to take in at once and still get anything done, being excessively conscious of the worlds beyond the here and now would slow down our progress even more. If we knew too much of the spiritual realm now, then navigating our lives on earth would be an even greater challenge than it already is…. From a more purpose-focused perspective (and I now believe the universe is nothing if not purposeful), making the right decisions through our free will in the face of the evil and injustice on earth would mean far less if we remembered, while here, the full beauty and brilliance of what awaits us.” -taken from the Examiner

David Icke always used to use the analogy that our five sense perceptions are on a particular frequency range just like a television picking up electrical signals and displaying them, (through a multitude of electrons), as dynamic pictures.

A good analogy might be: that consciousness is like a television as it receives consciousness - if the brain is in someway defected, consciousness would not be received correctly and possible bizzarre interpretations and behaviour may occur. Just as a television would act strangely if there was to be anything wrong with the actual TV equipment.

Think of the brain as a decoder. It allows consciousness to view the world and interact with it. People who have brain diseases, like Alzheimer, have a defective "antenna" or "recorder" and as the brain improperly "decodes" it gives distorted messages if you will.

There is the possibility that the brain is BOTH a generator of consciousness and a receiver too.

I've noticed that in the case of Dr. Eben Alexander there are only two defenses that skeptics put up against him:

a) he had the visions prior to slipping into coma, not during

b) he lied

In the face of Alexander's (disputed) evidence of consciousness existing outside of the brain, skeptics are only able to resort to 2 weak counterarguments.

Be it Indian philosophy, Jewish or Christian esoterism or Steiner's anthroposophy, one key idea about the nature of the human being is the following set out below:

We are according to the above traditions (and no doubt others too) spiritual beings. As spiritual beings we live in a spiritual environment, an environment of spiritual forces that pull our souls (individual experiences) in a range of different directions.

One useful spectrum is to divide the influences into those which limit the field of experience to the earthly/physical realm (materialism)and the other which tries to wrench us from the physical realm into the spiritual universe (automatism).

Science/Materialism's upside is that it supports the development of individual consciousness... a notable downside is that only physical reality is treated as real, spirit must be denied from this perspective, which leads to a cutting off from the source of life.

Spirit/Automatism's upside is that the human being connects to its source and is able to confront inherently difficult questions like the meaning of life... a notable downside (also here there are many) is this comes at the cost of individual consciousness and the spiritual freedom that goes hand in hand with this consciousness.

In Steiner's anthroposophy these 2 tendencies have the names Ahriman (science/materialism) and Lucifer (spirit/automatism). The human being is subject to these forces which want to experience themselves in the human being and they will fight hard to do so. According to different traditions the enlightened human being is able to balance both of these forces perfectly so that it gains individual consciousness of its own spiritual being. This means integrating the truths of the physical world with spiritual truths.

Individuals will have preponderance to being Ahrimanic or Luciferic in their basic nature. Then, of course there are the fanatics that represent the 2 extremes of the spectrum that cannot countenance the existence of the opposite perspective. These extremists are of course prepared to lie, fabricate and twist things to their own perspective. And this is all so that they can continue to hold their cherished beliefs rather than meet the evidence in a responsible manner.

In the NDE debate the skeptics who deny the evidence have more of the Ahrimanic tendency. And to mention another favorite theme of ours, Christianity, there we find that individuals are often prepared to sacrifice critical thinking for the spiritual comforts offered by the dogma. The modus operandi must be to not ask questions that go too deep for fear of losing faith. In the technical language of anthroposophy this would be described as Luciferic.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18972270 - 10/13/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I feel like you're still not getting me. I'm not saying consciousness doesn't exist outside of the brain. I'm saying that who you are here, you, will end. Like I earlier said, if there is an afterlife, and your soul/consciousness experiences it, that won't be you. You'll have no memory of your time here. That soul or whatever will be a completely different entity from you, experiencing a completely different world. I'm saying that when YOU die, YOU cease to exist, because you are who you are because of your memories which exist, and die here. I'm not trying to answer any questions about spirituality, personally I think spirituality is existentialism with a twist of paranormal. I also think there is no meaning to life, or the universe. It just is. It just happened to happen, and that's all.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18972290 - 10/13/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rool Kat said:
Stellarshnap and ConfettiHead,

I actually agree with most of your analyses (and the one about the energy being converted to more life through the decay process is especially insightful,) with the following reservation:

From current physics, we know that there are more than the three dimensions (four, counting time) that we can detect. 

As I see it, when we talk about what happens in death and afterwards, we are talking about what is reasonable to assume in terms of our knowledge of this three or four dimensional world of our daily lives.

But we know that there are more than those, so I see our attempts to describe this as being as futile as a hypothetical person in a two-dimensional world (a Photo, for example) trying to determine the size of a three dimensional ball.

The ball, intersected by the plane of the two dimensional world, would be seen by us in the three dimensional "real world" as a dome, but in the two dimensional world, that dome would only be seen as a straight line.  The observer's vision could not leave the plane and the curvature we see would not show unless the observer could rise above the plane.

Observing the fate of the energy of life at the moment of death is akin to the two-dimensional observer trying to determine anything about his observations of the three dimensional ball.

It will always be impossible, and for reasons that the universe that we live in imposes limitations that are both unknowable to us, and impossible to overcome.

In my case, I have no expectations but I do recognize possibilities.  My ultimate goal, if indeed it can be so phrased, is to get off the wheel (if such exists) and not have another turn.

That may well happen, but it may equally be for reasons currently unknowable, that range from the simple fact that there is no "universal energy field," or "Void," or any other term of art for what lies after death.  There may simply be nothing.

That's cool also.  However, the prudent man, even one with no expectations, will prepare for what he believes is a reasonably possible outcome.  I am reasonably confident that there are more than four dimensions and I believe that this may be involved at death.

But that's just me and my milage.  Your's may definitely vary, and that's cool too.





I pretty much share your position here.  In the mean time I'm trying to have as good a time as I can manage here in dimension three.  :thatsjustswell:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRool Kat
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18972327 - 10/13/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You and me both, brother!

And thanks for the comment.  I was beginning to believe that my posts were only showing on my own screen, for some strange reason...

I'm glad it's just because I'm being ignored, and not because I'm dead, and just haven't gotten the memo yet.

:borfase:


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18972404 - 10/13/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
I feel like you're still not getting me. I'm not saying consciousness doesn't exist outside of the brain. I'm saying that who you are here, you, will end. Like I earlier said, if there is an afterlife, and your soul/consciousness experiences it, that won't be you. You'll have no memory of your time here. That soul or whatever will be a completely different entity from you, experiencing a completely different world. I'm saying that when YOU die, YOU cease to exist, because you are who you are because of your memories which exist, and die here. I'm not trying to answer any questions about spirituality, personally I think spirituality is existentialism with a twist of paranormal. I also think there is no meaning to life, or the universe. It just is. It just happened to happen, and that's all.




I totally agree with you here. And no, once again, I don't misunderstand you. I've clearly understood everything that you've presented. And when did I ever postulate that YOU would remain after you die? In fact, I said the exact OPPOSITE of that, if you reference back to my earlier post where I clearly stated:

Quote:

ConfettiHead said:
YOU, as a Chinese male let's say, will not continue on as that personality upon death. Whether awareness continues on or not, no one knows, but your name, your ego, your SELF as you know it on this earth will most assuredly cease to be. However, the body you once carried will become food for worms and life will essentially go on.

Now, whether your awareness continues on (sans your earthly personality) is a subject of debate. Nobody knows for sure if a state of awareness continues on or not. In either case, you will not be what you used to be, that is certain.




I, like you, agree that the person you are (the ego you carry now) will cease to be once death comes. However, the focus should not be on whether your personality carries on or not; we've already solved that question in our minds before we began discussing. The focus should be on whether awareness/consciousness carries on or not because that is something that is, at least, debatable.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Rool Kat]
    #18972619 - 10/13/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'll come in person when it's time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18973380 - 10/13/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ah then I've misunderstood you :lol: sorry.

As for answering that question really the only ideas I can propose are the ones I got while under the influence of acid. Something that stood out to me was consciousness as a network. The consciousness of all life is actually one consciousness, experienced by each individual life form in a subjective fashion. How ever in death the consciousness experiencing that subjective reality returns to the "tapestry of souls". Of course I take these ideas with a grain of salt.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


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Offlinestellarshnap
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Icelander]
    #18973434 - 10/13/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You might like this. It's basically sting theory for dummies, or something along those lines.


--------------------
Careful, though your mind may be over matter, matter is all we really know.
"Or is it?"

The problem with intelligence is that it fosters arrogance, and arrogance suffocates intelligence. True intelligence however, bites holes in the bag.


Edited by stellarshnap (10/13/13 11:29 PM)


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: stellarshnap]
    #18978845 - 10/14/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellarshnap said:
So I've been thinking about death a lot, and have come to the conclusion that death is equivalent to a deep, dreamless sleep. Your perception of yourself, this world, time, everything really, is null and void; just like a dreamless sleep. Except in the case of death you just never wake up. How have I come to the conclusion that when you die you return to nothingness? Easy. What makes us who we are? Our memories of course. Our experiences and the growth we go through as people is only possible because of our brains unique memory storage capabilities. If we had no memory, we would have no concept of a past self, or future self.




Dreaming occurs during all five stages of sleep. This is the brain organizing memories and preparing for different situations that it think may occur based on memory. This is why some dreams don't make sense, or have no relation to actual events. The brain can not form full human faces on its own, every face you see in a dream is one you've seen before, whether it was for a moment in a shopping mall or one of a family member you see every day.


Quote:

Only a primal RIGHT NOW self, which can only think and react instinctually and emotionally. It's because of this concept of past self and future self that we are able to be so... conscious. Now, since our memories are stored, processed, and relived all by the brain, it's logically conclusive that when the brain dies, in other words you die, so do your memories. All of that life experience, all of that raw experiential data you built up over the years, poof. Dust in the wind. You as a person, being that person because of your memories, cease to exist.




I should really read all the way through this thread, because I'm sure other people have made the same points. I appreciate my own opinion too much for that though :lol:
Anyways, as ConfettiHead was trying to convey, and as OrgoneConclusion argued against, everything consists of energy. Everything. Even data. This energy (data) may change forms, and is bound to, as it has in the past, but nonetheless it still exists.
As we know from the research of  Fernando Nottebohm, learning/gaining information correlates with neuron growth. This suggests that memories are stored and transferred via neurons in the brain, the most significant part of the brain for memory being the hippocampus. This is verified with alzheimers disease when excess proteins in the hippocampus and neurocortex destroy neurons in the area, and memories fade away with them.
Neuron death can occur in any number of ways, in slow ways such as with alzheimers, or very quickly such as with a stroke or other acute brain trauma. The latter examples would occur through improper/inefficient provision of oxygen and nutrients as would occur during death. When the heart stops pumping, measurable brain function ceases in 20-40 seconds, but cell death continues at a rapid rate for 8 hours.
As this relates to what ConfettiHead said about energy remaining from what would essentially be the brains neurons. This is true, however the molecules which the neurons consist of could split into completely different ones, split and then combine with other molecules/atoms, or simply combine with other molecules and atoms. It would cease to be stored data then.
How this relates to what you said is as following. You theorize that without memory, consciousness cannot formulate a past or future. I agree. Current knowledge would suggest that our memories our destroyed with death. I feel though, that death only causes sentience to cease its existence. Sentience (in my opinion) is the ability to distinguish ourselves as an identity, the identity being shaped by memories, memories which are shaped by our perception of the physical world, which ceases to occur when nerves are lacking, or not transferring information.
From modern research, and educated guessing, I have come to the conclusion that death isn't "the end". Without memories or the ability to create them, consciousness is essentially nothing. I think, and would like to think that one's afterlife consists of the last memories they are able to recall along with the last feeling they are able to perceive. When one reaches this point, that which created them as a person does not collectively continue through time. That doesn't mean it isn't there though. If we cannot perceive anymore, if we cannot remember anymore, are we not just infinite as our last moment?


Quote:

Now as for death anxiety, I don't really understand it. Sure life is bitterly beautiful, but at the end of yours, you're gonna be tired, if you lived that is. This place is a bizarre mystery, and I'm sure it's gonna leave us all confused enough for a lifetime. So why the anxiety from returning to nothingness, you did come from there after all. Instead of seeing death as some awfully dark and inescapable fact of life, or using religion to escape the fact altogether... Why not see death as a return to an old friend. Finally you get some peace of mind. Doesn't seem so bad to me.




I agree with your thoughts on death anxiety. If I am to use my own belief, there should be no reason to fear death if your last perception is a good one and your memories are good too. This is why I want to die in the company of the person(s) I love most. You can only control what your memory will be through living, and you can only control final feelings through how your death occurs.
I don't believe in full any religion, but there are elements of some which fit my lifestyle, and there are elements of some which seem to be validated through science. Particularly the idea of heaven vs hell. It's a sad thought that if you die in a shitty way, you might be doomed eternally to the pain of your finality, but it's comforting that living life in a way which fulfills a person up to the very end might actually make a difference for oneself beyond life, however tiny that may be.


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dead man walking


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OfflineConfettiHead
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: HalfLight]
    #18980478 - 10/15/13 08:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Outstanding post. :thumbup: In my opinion, you're right on track.

My studies and experiences with the religious thought of different cultures, as well as my research on NDEs, have led me to the same conclusions that you have come to. Basically, what is experienced after death is directly related to your final experience on earth. Those in a negative state attain a negative state, those in a positive state attain a positive state. This is basically heaven and hell; they are states of consciousness, not physical realms. This is why it is important to cultivate peace, love, compassion, harmony with other beings, etc. in life because if you die in that state, then you will most likely remain in that state after death. Showing hatred towards others, remaining in a general state of negativity, always being cynical, leading a life of anger and aggression, etc. will only hurt YOU in the end. Again, great post, you presented you're information clearly too. Good job.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18982324 - 10/15/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:likeaboss:


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dead man walking


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #18984453 - 10/16/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not a bad speculation. :thumbup:


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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OfflinebeforeIgetold
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Re: When you die you cease to exist, and here's why. [Re: Cactilove]
    #19017814 - 10/23/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like to think of the "me" and what drives "me" as two separate things.

While the "me" might cease to exist, the driver returns to a state of energy to merge with what ever is possible.

But that makes me wonder what is behind the driver, the energy that gives the human body a function. What decides where and when that energy gets to inhabit a being or what ever it can do? Does it float around in senselessness and is thrusted into merging with another entity?

If such is the way of energy, then all living things truly are made of the same, the only thing that sets the limits of a given entity is the genetic code that interprets how energy gets to work in that setting. In other words, the genetic code of lion reads as a manual that energy will accept as being able to do what a lion cannot or can do in order to work.

A sort of purposeless recurring set of events that lead nowhere but through the randomness of chaos again and again forever.


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