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XUL
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Philosophy
#18957365 - 10/09/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I never officially studied philosophy but I have this vague idea that every debatable topic can be boiled down to ethics; that is what is right wrong. Who crreates the "rules". God? Humans?. And finally all different parties agree to disagree. Or else its anarchy.
Counterpoint?
Edited by XUL (10/10/13 12:14 AM)
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Withinity
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Re: Philosophy [Re: XUL]
#18957452 - 10/10/13 12:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rules... ?
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XUL
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Quote:
Withinity said: Rules... ? 
Precisely.
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TRUMP 2020
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windowlikcer
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Re: Philosophy [Re: XUL]
#18958371 - 10/10/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes you can look at it that way. I tend to transcend the ethical towards the ontological though, rather than the other way around.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophy [Re: XUL] 1
#18958904 - 10/10/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ethics is only one of 5 or 6 sub-categories of philosophy, and that is Western Philosophy to be more precise. Each culture has its own various philosophies. Most people I come across do not have any formal schooling in philosophy so when you ask them what their philosophy is, they usually interpret that as their 'philosophy of life,' which in turn comes down to some political cliché, like 'live and let live,' or something more slanted, like 'smaller government' among those whose philosophy is the Republican party. The same people do not include their philosophy in the same cubby-hole as their religion. In the most extreme examples of compartmentalization, you can find the most unwhole, unwholesome mentalities. For example, the Jew-hating Klansman who considers himself to be a Christian - a religion focused on a Jew named Jesus. If Ethics is a codified morality, the ethics of a Klansman has so limited a scope, that one can say that there are no true ethics. Ethics touches upon other fields of philosophy because Ethics needs to have a universal application to the human condition. Universality often, but not always, draws upon Metaphysics, wherein the 'oneness' of the human condition translates ethically into an equanimity for all human beings. Metaphysics is not the only appeal for a basis of Ethics, as the Wiki article shows, Moral and Political Philosophy can be the basis. Utilitarianism (J.S. Mill and J. Bentham), posits the moral imperative as the "greatest happiness for the greatest number," from which Star Trek's Gene Roddenbury derived its Vulcan moral imperative as, "The good of the many over the good of the few, or the one." This political basis draws on another category of Philosophy, (the basic Vulcan Philosophy) - Logic. So you can see that reductionism to one sub-category, Ethics, is not accurate.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Repertoire89
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Re: Philosophy [Re: XUL]
#18959228 - 10/10/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said: I never officially studied philosophy but I have this vague idea that every debatable topic can be boiled down to ethics; that is what is right wrong. Who crreates the "rules". God? Humans?. And finally all different parties agree to disagree. Or else its anarchy.
Counterpoint?
Philosophy is also concerned with general reality, not just ethical issues.
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Rhizoid
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Re: Philosophy [Re: XUL] 2
#18968712 - 10/12/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Philosophy means a lot of things, but the original meaning of the word is "love of wisdom". Ethics is just a minor part of that.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophy [Re: Rhizoid]
#18968982 - 10/12/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizoid said: Philosophy means a lot of things, but the original meaning of the word is "love of wisdom". Ethics is just a minor part of that.
I wouldn't agree with "minor." Love of Wisdom has a great deal to do with our 'horizontal' relationships with people, animals and the eco-system in which we exist. The 'vertical' relationship with Being qua Being may not be an ethical concern, but upon one's return to society, ethics manifests any Wisdom accrued in solitary contemplation.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Rhizoid
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Well put Markos, I can't argue with that. Just to clarify, my use of the word "minor" was in terms of intellectual scope rather than spiritual importance.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: but upon one's return to society, ethics manifests any Wisdom accrued in solitary contemplation.

Ethics is an artificial concept, it doesn't exist.
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: but upon one's return to society, ethics manifests any Wisdom accrued in solitary contemplation.

Ethics is an artificial concept, it doesn't exist.
It makes sense to me. If you go get blissed on acid while camping in the woods and come back and lash out at the first person to push your buttons, it shows you how different sets of stimulus conditions still are determining how high you can be.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: but upon one's return to society, ethics manifests any Wisdom accrued in solitary contemplation.

Ethics is an artificial concept, it doesn't exist.
You're wrong of course. Ethics is essential to the human condition.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
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Maybe it's the lack of a corresponding drug to a moral motivational center that's confusing. You sort of know where opiates, alcohol, amphetamines go on the chakra totem, but then there's a missing gap for ethics before you go into far out psychedelic states
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
Repertoire said:

Ethics is an artificial concept, it doesn't exist.
Quote:
You're wrong of course. Ethics is essential to the human condition.
Prove it.
As far as I can see humans live like any other pack animals.
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CosmicJoke
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Yay for back and forth one sentence arguments, whip 'em out and measure em
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
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THIS human endeavors to become fully human, and that means transcending some of the mammalian tendencies at his own expense. That has meant self-sacrifice, instead of aggrandizement of self. It has meant allowing myself to be appreciated unself-consciously without performing rituals of dominance and mating, and being a loner, not a pack animal, when my priorities are not conditioned by socio-biology - which is most of the time.
There is no proof for someone who requests proof. You do not want to be convinced of a perspective outside of the one that seems to be cementing together your tenuous grasp of things. There is no generic human being. I have made a series of choices that have removed me from my home state, my childhood friends, my remaining family, popular culture, the Standard American Diet, religious affiliations, spectator sports, and a number of other socially-conditioning factors including parenthood. Yet I am a productive member of society, not a sociopath, and the reward system I have adhered to has been a balance between altruism and the necessity of remuneration. I am not a wolf, a predator, or merely a mammal. I am a self-actualizing human being.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: Maybe it's the lack of a corresponding drug to a moral motivational center that's confusing. You sort of know where opiates, alcohol, amphetamines go on the chakra totem, but then there's a missing gap for ethics before you go into far out psychedelic states 
Are you referring to 'The Abyss,' in which the non-sephira Da'ath (Gnosis) is? That seems like a 'cloud of unknowing' in which ethics can become confused. Whose ethics? Who/What am I? Relativity flounders and drowns in the proximity to the Supernals. The Divine Will is 'beyond good and evil,' but following the Absolute, the reflux passes back down to the plane of humanity again, and ethics or the lack thereof illustrates whether the Light one has encountered has been Supernal or merely Luciferian. Has one become more established in compassionate Tiphereth, indicating an influx from Kether, or was it Luciferian Light which now inflates a manipulative ego who flew too close to the Supernal Light but fell clear through the Ethical Triangle on the way down into the Astral Triangle, Malkuth, or the Qlippoth itself?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: THIS human endeavors to become fully human, and that means transcending some of the mammalian tendencies at his own expense. That has meant self-sacrifice, instead of aggrandizement of self. It has meant allowing myself to be appreciated unself-consciously without performing rituals of dominance and mating, and being a loner, not a pack animal, when my priorities are not conditioned by socio-biology - which is most of the time.
How does that outline the existence of 'ethics'?
Quote:
There is no proof for someone who requests proof.

Quote:
You do not want to be convinced of a perspective outside of the one that seems to be cementing together your tenuous grasp of things.
My perspective and philosophical boundaries have shifted very drastically over the years time and again, this is a pretty feeble personalism you've thrown at me. No I don't want to be "convinced" of anything, I'm not looking to buy your pseudo-hindu hypothesis' on life or any other perspective. The truth is what interests me and the point was very small - "ethics" is an artificial concept with no bearing on reality. Where your accusations come from I couldn't say.
Quote:
There is no generic human being. I have made a series of choices that have removed me from my home state, my childhood friends, my remaining family, popular culture, the Standard American Diet, religious affiliations, spectator sports, and a number of other socially-conditioning factors including parenthood. Yet I am a productive member of society, not a sociopath, and the reward system I have adhered to has been a balance between altruism and the necessity of remuneration. I am not a wolf, a predator, or merely a mammal. I am a self-actualizing human being.
"seems to be cementing together your tenuous grasp of things."
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: but upon one's return to society, ethics manifests any Wisdom accrued in solitary contemplation.

Ethics is an artificial concept, it doesn't exist.
It makes sense to me. If you go get blissed on acid while camping in the woods and come back and lash out at the first person to push your buttons, it shows you how different sets of stimulus conditions still are determining how high you can be.
Nature and nurture, nothing to do with "ethics" how something makes you feel.
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CosmicJoke
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I think you're onto something that it's the descent from higher, psychedelic states of consciousness that transforms a mature, adult personality to higher modes of compassion. I suppose it was my observation that there does not appear to be a drug that facilitates an adult personality to begin with
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (10/13/13 04:57 AM)
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