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MescalitoMagnality
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 80
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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can you soak WBS for too long?
#18955350 - 10/09/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey guys was just wondering if my 3 day soaked WBS is good, when i opened the lid too my pot their was white sudsy looking bubbles all over the place, and it also doesnt smell good at all i know it smells fermented at times but my question is can you soak WBS for too long? or is the suds from not properly cleaning out my pot? which im pretty sure i did.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Your WBS has started ferminting and likely started sprouting.
I use rye, and if I were in your shoes, I would start over.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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MescalitoMagnality
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 80
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18955435 - 10/09/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Your WBS has started ferminting and likely started sprouting.
I use rye, and if I were in your shoes, I would start over.
Alright yea ill just start over and do the normal 14 hour soak.. i just started soaking it and couldnt get around to PCing it lol dammit i gotta learn not too waste materials
Edited by MescalitoMagnality (10/09/13 05:14 PM)
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Been there, done that.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18955604 - 10/09/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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24 hours is about the most you want to soak. You could get away with 36 if you change the water often, like I do.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#18956099 - 10/09/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just steep/simmer to capacity first, then drain and rinse and let the grains rest/drain for 24 hrs to ensure the endospores are hatched out. Also allows the outside of the seeds to dry some before you jar and pc the grain.
If you are soak and simmering: the goal of the soak has always been to help encourage endospore hatching, so they can germinate and be killed in the pc, not necessarily just to hydrate the seeds. The seeds will become hydrated in the steep/simmer, whether you soaked or not 
The goal of steeping/simmering is not to cook the seeds, but to allow the grains to soak up maximum moisture without bursting/cooking the grains.
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: If you are soak and simmering: the goal of the soak has always been to help encourage endospore hatching, so they can germinate and be killed in the pc, not necessarily just to hydrate the seeds. The seeds will become hydrated in the steep/simmer, whether you soaked or not 
The soak is what hydrates the grains, not the simmer.
I know this because I do not simmer my grains, I just soak them for 24 hours in hot tap water and that does the trick.
The purpose of simmering them is just to get them hot enough to steam dry in a timely fashion, not to hydrate them.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (10/09/13 07:52 PM)
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: PussyFart]
#18956951 - 10/09/13 10:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: If you are soak and simmering: the goal of the soak has always been to help encourage endospore hatching, so they can germinate and be killed in the pc, not necessarily just to hydrate the seeds. The seeds will become hydrated in the steep/simmer, whether you soaked or not 
The soak is what hydrates the grains, not the simmer.
I know this because I do not simmer my grains, I just soak them for 24 hours in hot tap water and that does the trick.
The purpose of simmering them is just to get them hot enough to steam dry in a timely fashion, not to hydrate them.
You are not wrong, you dont even have to simmer if your grains are hydrated well enough after the soak.
The new modern purpose of simmering them is to steam dry them. (oh hey guys check this out ..my seeds dry better like this)
The original purpose and still primary purpose of soaking is however to allow endospores to hatch. There has been a huge gap of basic information in some regards on the boards, does not make the truth of the matter any different, because people don't know 
While resistant to extreme heat and radiation, endospores can be destroyed by burning or by autoclaving. Endospores are able to survive boiling at 100°C for hours, although the longer the number of hours the fewer that will survive. An indirect way to destroy them is to place them in an environment that reactivates them to their vegetative state (hydration). They will germinate within a day (24hr soak) or two with the right environmental conditions, and then the vegetative cells can be straightforwardly destroyed (in the pc). This indirect method is called Tyndallization. It was the usual method for a while in the late 19th century before the advent of inexpensive autoclaves. Prolonged exposure to ionising radiation, such as x-rays and gamma rays, will also kill most endospores.
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
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budmanman
OTD Masterbater



Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 17,975
Loc: PNW
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: PussyFart]
#18957083 - 10/09/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: If you are soak and simmering: the goal of the soak has always been to help encourage endospore hatching, so they can germinate and be killed in the pc, not necessarily just to hydrate the seeds. The seeds will become hydrated in the steep/simmer, whether you soaked or not 
The soak is what hydrates the grains, not the simmer.
I know this because I do not simmer my grains, I just soak them for 24 hours in hot tap water and that does the trick.
The purpose of simmering them is just to get them hot enough to steam dry in a timely fashion, not to hydrate them.
Could you explain why ever after soaking when you simmer the grains expand?
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 5,487
Loc: Middle
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: budmanman]
#18957640 - 10/10/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i had grains ferment on me when i soaked them in hot water during the summer in just 12 hours.
use cold tap water and dont let them soak for more than 24 hours.
i usually let soak 10-14 hrs in cold tap then bring to full boil and steam dry in collander
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 14 hours
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: twistedty]
#18957646 - 10/10/13 01:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
twistedty said: i had grains ferment on me when i soaked them in hot water during the summer in just 12 hours.
I seriously doubt this....
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: PussyFart]
#18957650 - 10/10/13 01:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
twistedty said: i had grains ferment on me when i soaked them in hot water during the summer in just 12 hours.
I seriously doubt this....
i swear, smelled like straight vomit in just half a day. i still used them and they still worked but they smelled terrible, i wouldnt lie to you guys.
so after that i use just reg temp cool/tepid tap water
maybe ferment was bad choice of words but it was a funk of a smell
Edited by twistedty (10/10/13 01:27 AM)
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: twistedty]
#18957655 - 10/10/13 01:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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my wbs rolls around like bbs and colonize like a mofo. overboiling grains is so easy.
its just like cookin food, alot of food eggs meat etc will continue to cook for minutes on end even after you remove them from the heat.
a little culinary 101 for yall
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: twistedty]
#18957660 - 10/10/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh yes and btw my tap water come out to 140+F on max so i think that is why my wbs fermented so fast that plus the 80+ degrees ambient.
im telling you it smelled like straight mash for shine in just 12 hours.
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: twistedty]
#18957663 - 10/10/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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cmon hacker dont do me like that!
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: twistedty]
#18957690 - 10/10/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Damn bro.....it's iight.....I just havent checked my threads is all....I was just sayin.
Yea maybe that wasn't the right word....lol.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Sillyputty67

Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 2,239
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? *DELETED* [Re: PussyFart]
#18958233 - 10/10/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Sillyputty67Reason for deletion: 1
-------------------- 1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: Sillyputty67]
#18958259 - 10/10/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Endospores are very real and a problem if not properly dealt with.
Simmering dry grains will hydrate them, as will soaking. However, if you boil or simmer dry grains, they expand too fast and many will burst. Burst grains spill starch and are harder for the mycelium to colonize. This can and does cause problems later.
Soaking grains in hot water hydrates them without bursting. If one follows this procedure, the boil is to get them hot enough to steam dry before loading into jars. Other growers use different procedures, but all of them involve getting the grains to the correct moisture content and then sterilizing.
Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed. Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination. Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours. When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Steyner
finally found the edit button



Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 85
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18958299 - 10/10/13 08:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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sorry RR just to be clear, a 4 hour soak is good enough?
I have been following what seems to be the main consensus on this site, soaking for 24 hours, simmer for 10 minutes and steam dry.
can I get away with a 4 hour soak no problem?
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: Steyner]
#18958341 - 10/10/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've found that soaking rye berries for 24 hrs in the summer was too long. I dont know if fermentation is what happened, but I got some bubbly white foamy substance floating on top of the soak water. The berries didn't seem to hydrate much more from the 8hr mark to the 24 hr mark, so I've changed my soak time to under 16hrs. Haven't grown enough to tell a difference, except I no longer have that smelly icky white stuff in my water.
4 hrs would probably also suffice. Even more convinced now that RR says so (even though this is about wbs)
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: I just steep/simmer to capacity first, then drain and rinse and let the grains rest/drain for 24 hrs to ensure the endospores are hatched out. Also allows the outside of the seeds to dry some before you jar and pc the grain.
If you are soak and simmering: the goal of the soak has always been to help encourage endospore hatching, so they can germinate and be killed in the pc, not necessarily just to hydrate the seeds. The seeds will become hydrated in the steep/simmer, whether you soaked or not 
The goal of steeping/simmering is not to cook the seeds, but to allow the grains to soak up maximum moisture without bursting/cooking the grains.
Nice to see you on the forums Gretch. (I myself have been absent for a while)
I use Foo's No Soak WBS tek and it always works.
I guess there is some discussion about whether or not this is ideal for maximum hydration
The idea behind soaking your grains is to hydrate and germinate the endospores in the grain to be killed during the PC.
Honestly I have never needed to do this in the past 7 years I have been cultivating. I just boil water, take it off the heat, add grain, strain it 20-30 min later. Let it dry, jar it, PC, inoculate
Foo's method is especially popular for those who don't like bursting grains or who have a finicky stovetop.
I like it because I can skip the soak completely, but better yet I dont need to simmer or watch my grains. Just boil water to a nice hot rolling boil, remove it from the heat, add your grain, put the top on, and wait
Never burst another kernel again
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: spacechildo]
#18958584 - 10/10/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It seems to me, that endospores forming in water would also be hydrated and thus nuked in the PC, just like the endospores that were on the dry grain.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18958646 - 10/10/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed. Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.
I came in to say this. I don't agree that soaking does all of the hydrating that you need. I soak my WBS for ~24 hours per batch, and I change the water often to keep it hot (comes out of my tap at about 150F) and this still doesn't completely hydrate it. A few minutes of simmering (until the milo starts to split and the wheat goes translucent) and they're noticeably more swollen. I never worry about endospores, though. By soaking you actually provoke the production of millions more endospores than you started with.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#18959160 - 10/10/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
36fuckin5 said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed. Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.
I came in to say this. I don't agree that soaking does all of the hydrating that you need. I soak my WBS for ~24 hours per batch, and I change the water often to keep it hot (comes out of my tap at about 150F) and this still doesn't completely hydrate it. A few minutes of simmering (until the milo starts to split and the wheat goes translucent) and they're noticeably more swollen. I never worry about endospores, though. By soaking you actually provoke the production of millions more endospores than you started with.
Yup
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MoGrow
Lysergic Funeral Procession



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,356
Loc: Da Sunshine State
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: Brain Fart]
#18959472 - 10/10/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
As the liquid heats, its molecules begin to move around very rapidly. These molecules bump into the grains, disrupting their structure enough to cause the grains to take in more water. At a certain point during heating, the solution reaches a balance where the grains are still mostly intact but have absorbed as much liquid as they can.
grains do absorb water when heated, i never simmer i bring to a boil, then turn off the stove. My grains do more absorbing during the boil than they do for the 16-24 hours they soak.
Ive used the no soak method before and it worked fine, Endospore is the #1 reason i soak. Does it matter? IDK ive never had an issue w/ either method, but my product is too important to me to take a chance, so i soak. To my understanding soaking for endospores is for inside the grains not outside so the increase in endospores from soaking is irrelevant since were talking external endos in the water and on the outside of the grains.
PCing is suposed to kill everything in your PC, yet ive used grains after a 36 hour soak (got wrecked one night and forgot about them) even after rinsing the grains 6 or 7 times before stove topping. I lost 1:5 jars to bacterial contam (this is the only time ive had this issue). So again IDK. just my $.2 worth of experience.
-------------------- Trades Current Contest! My current mono (pics) Ghetto Bulk Dehydrator Tek How I Made My Alcohol Lamp Oeric McKenna said: "My innoculant is heavily contaminated with mushroom mycelium"
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Sillyputty67

Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 2,239
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? *DELETED* [Re: MoGrow]
#18959517 - 10/10/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Sillyputty67Reason for deletion: 1
-------------------- 1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: Sillyputty67]
#18959639 - 10/10/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
malicom said: 1 out of 5 is not bad.
1 out of 5 is awful. That's a 20% contam rate. Anything more than 1% is unacceptable IMO.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Sillyputty67

Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 2,239
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? *DELETED* [Re: 36fuckin5]
#18959913 - 10/10/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Sillyputty67Reason for deletion: 1
Edited by Sillyputty67 (10/10/13 03:29 PM)
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MoGrow
Lysergic Funeral Procession



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,356
Loc: Da Sunshine State
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: Sillyputty67]
#18960293 - 10/10/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was when i typed that, im now but i see a mistake in what i typed, it was 72 hours i guess i said 36 because i had 3 days on my mind, or maybe it was because i still had 36fuckin5's post rattling around.
1 in 5 is horrible, but i didnt get a spawn contam they had bacterial contam before i ever thought about g2ging to them, i let them sit for a week because they soaked for so long, i lost 5 out of 27 jars i PCed. This was the only incident ive ever had w/ bacterial contams in a jar, ive only delt w/ it on agar (from dead skin cells falling i assume).
This is the only loss to sterilization ive encountered and the only difference between this run and the countless other successful ones, is the soak time on the grains, and the fact they were stupendously fermented. Of course this was just to see if they would be of use, gladly i only lost 5
-------------------- Trades Current Contest! My current mono (pics) Ghetto Bulk Dehydrator Tek How I Made My Alcohol Lamp Oeric McKenna said: "My innoculant is heavily contaminated with mushroom mycelium"
Edited by MoGrow (10/10/13 04:38 PM)
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: MoGrow]
#18960344 - 10/10/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Glad to know I'm on your mind. 
You learned a cheap lesson. Remember it.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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MoGrow
Lysergic Funeral Procession



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,356
Loc: Da Sunshine State
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: 36fuckin5] 1
#18960400 - 10/10/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yea it only happened once, cuz i got wrecked and forgot about em, should have made some shine.
-------------------- Trades Current Contest! My current mono (pics) Ghetto Bulk Dehydrator Tek How I Made My Alcohol Lamp Oeric McKenna said: "My innoculant is heavily contaminated with mushroom mycelium"
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Brain Fart
Mushroom Nerd



Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Your Mom
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Re: can you soak WBS for too long? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#19009255 - 10/21/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
36fuckin5 said:
Quote:
malicom said: 1 out of 5 is not bad.
1 out of 5 is awful. That's a 20% contam rate. Anything more than 1% is unacceptable IMO.
lol right
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