|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Jesus story is pure fiction
#18955142 - 10/09/13 04:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm
Jesus was compiled from myths, and paid for by affluent Roman.
There is not even a Jesus who this was based on. Jesus is like Bugs Bunny.
-------------------- ...or something
|
sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18955172 - 10/09/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-21
Quote:
^ In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".[12] Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more".[13] Robert M. Price does not believe that Jesus existed, but agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[14] James D.G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".[15] Michael Grant (a classicist) wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".[16] Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted.[17]
There are scientific cranks, and then there are religious cranks.
--------------------
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,388
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 1 month, 19 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18955331 - 10/09/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eve69 said: http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm
Jesus was compiled from myths, and paid for by affluent Roman.
There is not even a Jesus who this was based on. Jesus is like Bugs Bunny.
Bugs Bunny is a Sentient Being that lives in my Paradise.
|
c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Mr.Al] 2
#18955520 - 10/09/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Whether Bugs Bunny is real or not doesn't matter, the effect he has on the sociocultural psyche is real.
|
Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,388
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 1 month, 19 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#18955533 - 10/09/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I'm fairly certain that Bugs Bunny would "Respectfully Disagree" and insist that the fact that he is real is very important.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Mr.Al]
#18958537 - 10/10/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
In my lifetime of experience no one has even come close to approximating Bugs Bunny, for speed, wit, or gusto.
-------------------- ...or something
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#18958779 - 10/10/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Whether Bugs Bunny is real or not doesn't matter, the effect he has on the sociocultural psyche is real.
^This.
The argument for existence vs. nonexistence in the case of Jesus Christ, Krishna, Horus, etc. is of no value to us in the year 2013. We will never come to a conclusive end on the matter, therefore it is a waste of time to discourse on it. It matters not whether the stories themselves are historical or not. The only matter of concern is the kind of impact that the stories have on us in the present moment. Are they applicable to my life in the present age? If so, does the application of the lesson given in the story improve my life or not? If it does improve my life, then it is of value to me. If not, then it can be discarded and I can quit wasting my time. However, in either case, the historical accuracy of the story is irrelevant.
--------------------
|
Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: c0sm0nautt] 1
#18958931 - 10/10/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Whether Bugs Bunny is real or not doesn't matter, the effect he has on the sociocultural psyche is real.
LOL
|
Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18959423 - 10/10/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ConfettiHead said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Whether Bugs Bunny is real or not doesn't matter, the effect he has on the sociocultural psyche is real.
^This.
The argument for existence vs. nonexistence in the case of Jesus Christ, Krishna, Horus, etc. is of no value to us in the year 2013. We will never come to a conclusive end on the matter, therefore it is a waste of time to discourse on it. It matters not whether the stories themselves are historical or not. The only matter of concern is the kind of impact that the stories have on us in the present moment. Are they applicable to my life in the present age? If so, does the application of the lesson given in the story improve my life or not? If it does improve my life, then it is of value to me. If not, then it can be discarded and I can quit wasting my time. However, in either case, the historical accuracy of the story is irrelevant.
then theyre not special. nor is the religion.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
#18961295 - 10/10/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yogi1 said:
Quote:
ConfettiHead said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Whether Bugs Bunny is real or not doesn't matter, the effect he has on the sociocultural psyche is real.
^This.
The argument for existence vs. nonexistence in the case of Jesus Christ, Krishna, Horus, etc. is of no value to us in the year 2013. We will never come to a conclusive end on the matter, therefore it is a waste of time to discourse on it. It matters not whether the stories themselves are historical or not. The only matter of concern is the kind of impact that the stories have on us in the present moment. Are they applicable to my life in the present age? If so, does the application of the lesson given in the story improve my life or not? If it does improve my life, then it is of value to me. If not, then it can be discarded and I can quit wasting my time. However, in either case, the historical accuracy of the story is irrelevant.
then theyre not special. nor is the religion.
We have a special place for special people, whether they are Bugs Bunnies or Jesuses.
-------------------- ...or something
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69] 2
#18963450 - 10/11/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Jesus is certainly real, as his love and energy is a testament towards. Read your Bible eve69
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#18964130 - 10/11/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
That proves absolutely nothing except some guys said he's real.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#18964200 - 10/11/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
yeah and i'm one of em
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#18964304 - 10/11/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Exactly, my point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#18964339 - 10/11/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
/shrug its good to read it whether you believe or not (trust me on that one)
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1,227
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#18964367 - 10/11/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-21
Quote:
^ In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".[12] Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more".[13] Robert M. Price does not believe that Jesus existed, but agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[1e4] James D.G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".[15] Michael Grant (a classicist) wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".[16] Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted.[17]
There are scientific cranks, and then there are religious cranks.
there is no evidence here other than saying scholars no longer believe he was a made up individual. that's not evidence.
the only mention of jesus from philosophers and records during that time is the use of the word christ which doesn't signify a specific individual.
there is no proof he existed except for the word of man.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18964394 - 10/11/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
well really all history is like that...it's all a story...
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1,227
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#18964421 - 10/11/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
No, not all history is like that. a story yes, but recorded history that is accepted by peers from the time and several sources agree.
the thing is there is no documentation of jesus and the acts he performed other than the bible.
something occuring like this would be well documented and thought on by philosophers and scholars. it was not however.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18964440 - 10/11/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
JFKFUDUWUSJDNCNWLlkqk1737474919
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18964449 - 10/11/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
yeah but the historical wave is very easy to follow. Roman history is totally filled with it, from the underground christian movement to the empire eventually adopting Christianity as the official religion.
and even earlier than that the spread coming from the original 'jewish christians' in Jerusalem is well documented, and also apostles like Paul of Tarsus are accepted by historians to have existed.
i think it just trips people out because Jesus was literally the beginning of history in many ways (for our modern west which came around after the fall of Rome).
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru] 2
#18964461 - 10/11/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I disagree. You parents ate meat, drove cars. They are satanists, I bet they approve of welding equipment
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
|
yeah i live in a post-industrial world...so do you...
and no they are not satanists lol
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1,227
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#18964571 - 10/11/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Not the beginning of history. not even the beginning of written history.
The beginning of a worldwide religion, sure.
Back to the topic.
there should be substantial records of jesus from his time and there are not.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69] 2
#18964802 - 10/11/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Jesus was compiled from myths
This was the conclusion of Albert Schweitzer in his classic 19th century book Quest for the Historical Jesus. It seems to be the conclusion of Tim Freke & Peter Gandy in their modern Gnostic books. But, I've read Bert Ehrman, Marcus Borg, Edward Schillebeeckx, Han Kung, and John Shelby Spong, all of whom are convinced that Iesous ben Miriam was in fact a historical person. Granted, the gospel accounts are written as Hebrew midrash, and are heavily mythologized along Hellenistic lines, the man did not leave behind writings of his own, and there are copious similarities attributed to purely mythological saviors of antiquity. But a movement began, and it developed from people who lived contemporaneously with Iesous and transmitted an oral tradition until several decades after the crucifixion death, when gospel stories were 'constructed.' I am convinced that the construction of the gospel stories was based, for the most part, on the Coffin and Pyramid Texts of the Egyptians (the thesis of D.M. Murdock in her book Christ in Egypt). I also see the NT as a recapitulation of themes from the Tenach expanded to non-Jews (J.S. Spong's thesis). Paul, the 'architect of Christianity,' neither met Iesous, nor did he speak about his personal history or a miraculous resuscitation from death. Paul wrote only about his experiences of the Resurrected Christ, as Light, and Word, and Miracle (Synchronicity). So unless someone has some emotional agenda to deny the historical Iesous, there is no purpose in insisting in the denial of his existence. Regardless of his historicity or not, I still consider Iesous to be the paradigm for human moral and psychospiritual development.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Jesus was compiled from myths
This was the conclusion of Albert Schweitzer in his classic 19th century book Quest for the Historical Jesus. It seems to be the conclusion of Tim Freke & Peter Gandy in their modern Gnostic books. But, I've read Bert Ehrman, Marcus Borg, Edward Schillebeeckx, Han Kung, and John Shelby Spong, all of whom are convinced that Iesous ben Miriam was in fact a historical person. Granted, the gospel accounts are written as Hebrew midrash, and are heavily mythologized along Hellenistic lines, the man did not leave behind writings of his own, and there are copious similarities attributed to purely mythological saviors of antiquity. But a movement began, and it developed from people who lived contemporaneously with Iesous and transmitted an oral tradition until several decades after the crucifixion death, when gospel stories were 'constructed.' I am convinced that the construction of the gospel stories was based, for the most part, on the Coffin and Pyramid Texts of the Egyptians (the thesis of D.M. Murdock in her book Christ in Egypt). I also see the NT as a recapitulation of themes from the Tenach expanded to non-Jews (J.S. Spong's thesis). Paul, the 'architect of Christianity,' neither met Iesous, nor did he speak about his personal history or a miraculous resuscitation from death. Paul wrote only about his experiences of the Resurrected Christ, as Light, and Word, and Miracle (Synchronicity). So unless someone has some emotional agenda to deny the historical Iesous, there is no purpose in insisting in the denial of his existence. Regardless of his historicity or not, I still consider Iesous to be the paradigm for human moral and psychospiritual development.
Boy, I sure do love your posts!

Thanks for the knowledge and insight; I can assure you that it is always well received, at least by me.
--------------------
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18965032 - 10/11/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I am god. lord god of this earthThe birdman sun doors teleportal crowned dextromethorphan beer vegetarianism clitnon ross noble ra in bho
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18965098 - 10/11/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
omegafaust said: Not the beginning of history. not even the beginning of written history.
you're gonna have to think outside the box a little if you want to discuss this. there's a reason we date our calendar from jesus's birth. and if you look at our current timeline, this EURO/AMERICAN western civ thing really 'began' with the fall of Rome. Well Jesus came about way before that but the Roman empire split into east and west (one half was christian) so you can certainly look at it as christianity ushering in the fall of rome.
And those same germanic tribes that took Rome down eventually adopted christian beliefs and set the foundation for much Medieval society. Makes sense to me. Jesus happened yo.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#18965210 - 10/11/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
|


See ying yang the bitches are sortof mans enemy b Im god and its a thread about me not being real
|
MeinDarkEye



Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 50
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
|

Jesus was awake and doing what many mystics do, he said things people in power didn't like. At this point in this day and age doesn't matter if he lived or died. His direct words still stand test of time, like any other mystic.
--------------------
Why can't you be normal! What you mean to say is, Average. What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will? What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill? What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again? Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.
Edited by MeinDarkEye (10/11/13 06:49 PM)
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: MeinDarkEye]
#18965274 - 10/11/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
A dog is a wild animal, we killed ourselbes with them
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
|
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18965314 - 10/11/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
ConfettiHead!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
MeinDarkEye



Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 50
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
|
Quote:
afaunaimeddaedalus said: A dog is a wild animal, we killed ourselbes with them
If Jesus is eternal, does that not make us equally eternal. If he died, why are we still here.
--------------------
Why can't you be normal! What you mean to say is, Average. What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will? What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill? What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again? Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.
|
Forest.dweller
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 74
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: MeinDarkEye]
#18965360 - 10/11/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
 good article bro. i d love to rub it in any believers face. but you know how they are... "whell he created these misleading clues to test our faith in him"
BLAAA BLA BLAA BLABLAA
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
|
Its more or less the name jesus Are we eternal, I don't know, I think we'RE Sa - tanic
|
Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
|
Omg Christians call anecdotal stories evidence who knew!
--------------------
|
sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18966587 - 10/12/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
omegafaust said:
Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-21
Quote:
^ In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman wrote, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".[12] Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more".[13] Robert M. Price does not believe that Jesus existed, but agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[1e4] James D.G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".[15] Michael Grant (a classicist) wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".[16] Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted.[17]
There are scientific cranks, and then there are religious cranks.
there is no evidence here other than saying scholars no longer believe he was a made up individual. that's not evidence.
It's an appeal to authority, sure. But so is your cite to an article that says that a scholar is going to do a presentation.
Quote:
the only mention of jesus from philosophers and records during that time is the use of the word christ which doesn't signify a specific individual.
How come the gospels don't count as records? The epistles? etc.
Quote:
there is no proof he existed except for the word of man.
I'm confused as to how exactly this constitutes an actual attack on the position that Jesus existed.
--------------------
|
sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18966601 - 10/12/13 12:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
omegafaust said: Not the beginning of history. not even the beginning of written history.
The beginning of a worldwide religion, sure.
Back to the topic.
there should be substantial records of jesus from his time and there are not.
Gospels? Epistles? How exactly are you does this argument work - that after the fact that a certain level of record should exist? We should have found wreckage from Amelia Earhart's crash. We haven't. Therefore she didn't exist - what?
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
|
Quote:
afaunaimeddaedalus said: I am god. lord god of this earthThe birdman sun doors teleportal crowned dextromethorphan beer vegetarianism clitnon ross noble ra in bho
I feel you. But proper spelling is still useful. I got stuck on the word cliton above. I think I know what you're saying, but I'm not positive.
-------------------- ...or something
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
|
Quote:
Forest.dweller said:
 good article bro. i d love to rub it in any believers face. but you know how they are... "whell he created these misleading clues to test our faith in him"
BLAAA BLA BLAA BLABLAA
If it was proved beyond doubt that Jesus never existed and was created by agents of The Roman State for purposes of maintaining hegemony - Christians wouldn't care!
You can't win an argument about a faith because that faith is not based on reason.
But for the rest of us, we can at least understand.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18967375 - 10/12/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
This seems to be the case. I have found that the religious true believer has an amazing capacity to ignore the most profound and obvious evidence if it interferes with his personal desires.
(Kind of sounds like the opposite of egolessness doesn't it. )
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#18967445 - 10/12/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death".
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18967470 - 10/12/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ConfettiHead said: And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death".
Unqualified mush argument
-------------------- ...or something
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18967483 - 10/12/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Huh? Clarify yourself. Who has given you the authority to call me unqualified? I have been in both churches and temples, synagogues and mosques, I have seen it all. And I was agreeing with Icelander when he said that the religious bigot has "an amazing capacity to ignore the most profound and obvious evidence if it interferes with his personal desires." Based on my experiences, this is a true statement.
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18967668 - 10/12/13 09:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you. To me it was meaningless.
-------------------- ...or something
|
omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1,227
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18967681 - 10/12/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
certainly biased, but the information is sound and very detailed.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: omegafaust]
#18967826 - 10/12/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
okay, thanks
-------------------- ...or something
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18967839 - 10/12/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eve69 said: Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you. To me it was meaningless.
Okay you want specifics? Fair enough.
For 2 years I worked for a Gaudiya Vaishnava gift store and regularly attended the Hare Krishna temple with my fellow devotee co-workers. I remember one time I was attending a Sunday love feast meeting and the topic that night was about false ego. The guru was expounding on Srila Prabhupada's ideas of false ego and his specific teachings in various lectures such as, "Take Shelter of Krishna and Become Powerful".
Now, I had already learned about the evils of false ego and about ego death through my use of psychedelics and, to me, ego death was something that everyone should attain. The Krishnas seemed to agree. So the guru began expounding on this concept of false ego and how it should be destroyed (essentially ego death). I can think of some specific examples of, not only his words, but the words of some others in the ISKCON movement that stress the importance of ego death:
"Due to false ego & selfish disposition we find everyone as potential enemy." -Radhanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
"If you become conscious of Me (Lord Krishna), you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My (Krishna’s) grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness, but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost." Bhagavadgita 18.58 (Spoken by Krishna himself)
"Cleansing of the mirror of consciousness takes place, as one minimizes his bodily concept of false ego." -Lokanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
 -A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISKCON)
 -Bhakti Charu Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
I could go forever, but the fact of the matter is that Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as well as other sects of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and the Smarta tradition, all believe that the false ego should be minimized or even destroyed (if possible).
However, in my personal experience with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, I found that: despite their belief in the importance of ego death, despite their ramblings on the unity of all religions, and despite their supposed liberal, all-inclusive mentality, they were just as fundamental in their belief systems as Christians were. They believed that Krishna was the one and only true God (they believe Krishna is higher than Brahman), they believe all things stem from Krishna alone (just as Shaivites believe that all things stem from Shiva), and they believe that Krishna is "second to none". Jesus was not God, Buddha was considered blasphemous and Mohammed was simply swept under the rug. They masked their intolerance of other faiths with an "All is One" banner, but in reality they were not tolerant of other belief systems. Only their belief system would set one free from the cycle of birth and death.
So back to the main point, during my time with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect I sat in front of many gurus and listened to many talks on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death. At first, this caused me to believe that the Krishnas were just like me with an open-minded, free spirited, anything goes personality. But I soon realized that they were not, and this was confirmed upon me challenging some devotees on some specific topics such as... meat-eating for example.
They wear a great facade of tolerance to every faith and culture, but beware:
"Those who eat meat never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who have sex for pleasure never have the chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who gamble never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who take intoxicants never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
Sounds a lot like the seven deadly sins huh? Instead, it's the four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada put in place himself: no meat-eating, no sex, no gambling, no intoxicants. If these four principles aren't followed, you have no chance of being saved.
Therefore, despite the various lectures on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death, the truth is, the Hare Krishnas have a big ego. They believe that their way is the only way, just like Christians.
So earlier when I said, "And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death", this is what I meant.
Specific enough?
--------------------
|
Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18968147 - 10/12/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Hindus are fucked.
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18968262 - 10/12/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ConfettiHead said:
Quote:
eve69 said: Because you don't define definitions, sources, references, specifics, ontology or anything. It's mush thinking, mush argument. While it may mean something to you, it will only continue to mean something to you. To me it was meaningless.
Okay you want specifics? Fair enough.
For 2 years I worked for a Gaudiya Vaishnava gift store and regularly attended the Hare Krishna temple with my fellow devotee co-workers. I remember one time I was attending a Sunday love feast meeting and the topic that night was about false ego. The guru was expounding on Srila Prabhupada's ideas of false ego and his specific teachings in various lectures such as, "Take Shelter of Krishna and Become Powerful".
Now, I had already learned about the evils of false ego and about ego death through my use of psychedelics and, to me, ego death was something that everyone should attain. The Krishnas seemed to agree. So the guru began expounding on this concept of false ego and how it should be destroyed (essentially ego death). I can think of some specific examples of, not only his words, but the words of some others in the ISKCON movement that stress the importance of ego death:
"Due to false ego & selfish disposition we find everyone as potential enemy." -Radhanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
"If you become conscious of Me (Lord Krishna), you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My (Krishna’s) grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness, but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost." Bhagavadgita 18.58 (Spoken by Krishna himself)
"Cleansing of the mirror of consciousness takes place, as one minimizes his bodily concept of false ego." -Lokanath Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
 -A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (founder of ISKCON)
 -Bhakti Charu Swami (initiating ISKCON guru)
I could go forever, but the fact of the matter is that Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as well as other sects of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and the Smarta tradition, all believe that the false ego should be minimized or even destroyed (if possible).
However, in my personal experience with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, I found that: despite their belief in the importance of ego death, despite their ramblings on the unity of all religions, and despite their supposed liberal, all-inclusive mentality, they were just as fundamental in their belief systems as Christians were. They believed that Krishna was the one and only true God (they believe Krishna is higher than Brahman), they believe all things stem from Krishna alone (just as Shaivites believe that all things stem from Shiva), and they believe that Krishna is "second to none". Jesus was not God, Buddha was considered blasphemous and Mohammed was simply swept under the rug. They masked their intolerance of other faiths with an "All is One" banner, but in reality they were not tolerant of other belief systems. Only their belief system would set one free from the cycle of birth and death.
So back to the main point, during my time with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect I sat in front of many gurus and listened to many talks on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death. At first, this caused me to believe that the Krishnas were just like me with an open-minded, free spirited, anything goes personality. But I soon realized that they were not, and this was confirmed upon me challenging some devotees on some specific topics such as... meat-eating for example.
They wear a great facade of tolerance to every faith and culture, but beware:
"Those who eat meat never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who have sex for pleasure never have the chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who gamble never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
"Those who take intoxicants never have a chance of attaining the Supreme!"
Sounds a lot like the seven deadly sins huh? Instead, it's the four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada put in place himself: no meat-eating, no sex, no gambling, no intoxicants. If these four principles aren't followed, you have no chance of being saved.
Therefore, despite the various lectures on the evils of false ego and the importance of ego death, the truth is, the Hare Krishnas have a big ego. They believe that their way is the only way, just like Christians.
So earlier when I said, "And isn't that ironic? Because some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians who probably aren't even familiar with the term "ego death", this is what I meant.
Specific enough?
Yes, that's more like it, thank you. The Prahupada peeps weren't the best category of Eastern spiritual adherents to set as a standard. I am from LA and grew up going to the Venice Beach yearly festival and I have my own stories of lack of empathy amongst their tribe.
I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego. In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.
In Sanatan Dharma proper ego is to be upheld through correct action, not through false and flaky fanaticism. The Neo-Advaitins have made ego-shrinking a whole sub-teaching.
Denial of any form creates unpromising conditions for development. It is like washing dishes in a sink of dirty water. One must consider each element in turn in order to... wash clean dishes....
-------------------- ...or something
|
ConfettiHead
Kindred Spirit



Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 622
Loc: Terra firma
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18968342 - 10/12/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Prahupada peeps weren't the best category of Eastern spiritual adherents to set as a standard.
I never set them as a standard. Here's what I said:
Quote:
Some teachings of the East teach of the importance of ego death, yet their followers hold onto their belief systems just as fundamentally as the Christians
Notice how I said some.
Not all, not even the majority, just some.
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: ConfettiHead]
#18969050 - 10/12/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Okay. You win.
-------------------- ...or something
|
cArcace-x
YeAh!!



Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 2,412
Loc: The Simulator
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18991968 - 10/17/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
a good documentary here on our dear friend Jeebuz!
--------------------
|
Mahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 117
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#18992690 - 10/17/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eve69 said: I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego. In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.
You probably wouldn't disagree, but as a footnote to this, the concept of ahamkara as a component of prakriti, to be transcended by the purusha, dates from at least as early as ~ 200 BCE - 200CE.
Edit: Sorry to hear that about ISKCON. I always wanted to go to one of the vegetarian feasts, but now I'm not so sure
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
Edited by Mahananda (10/17/13 07:49 PM)
|
Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Mahananda]
#18995145 - 10/18/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mahananda said:
Quote:
eve69 said: I don't argue against what you say regarding ego. It wasn't any point of my thread. Nor do I believe in the concept of ego-death (as I made an entire thread about a month ago). Not all, or even many Eastern religions eschew ego. In fact, eschewing the ego is a modern and New Age notion. Ego, as such, wasn't defined until Freud, many thousands of years later.
You probably wouldn't disagree, but as a footnote to this, the concept of ahamkara as a component of prakriti, to be transcended by the purusha, dates from at least as early as ~ 200 BCE - 200CE.
Edit: Sorry to hear that about ISKCON. I always wanted to go to one of the vegetarian feasts, but now I'm not so sure 
--------------------
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
#19005503 - 10/20/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Here's how I see it. All religions stem from people's fear of death.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19005559 - 10/20/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Seems like a logical assumption imo. It just might be the case. That doesn't mean however it's the only reason for religions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19007120 - 10/21/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Seems like a logical assumption imo. It just might be the case. That doesn't mean however it's the only reason for religions. 
I can agree with that. I just feel fear of death is got to be at the top of the list
|
Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19007158 - 10/21/13 05:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Next is money.
You'd think the king of Israel would have at least something written about him. Every king in Rome, England, japan, China, etc. Has been documented. The king of Israel is from word of mouth? Lol k.
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Mad Season]
#19007273 - 10/21/13 06:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Idk I think power would be next. We are talking about the main world religions of course.
There are plenty of people who use religion for self improvement and spiritual enlightenment
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19007280 - 10/21/13 06:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not so sure there are plenty if you could look into the heart of the matter. IMO the truly spiritual person leaves religion alone once he experiences any cognitive dissonance. Something any awakened person would experience imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19007300 - 10/21/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
It is a different world between hearing a religion and living its meaning. You must internalize and find new meaning in old slogans. At some point a religion must be between you and the big boss. Problem with religion is bullies hang out in them. Those bullies look perfect in that religion. They look much more religious and pious than you can ever hope to aspire to. Oh, fuck it, I may as well not even bother.
These pious souls steal religion from everybody else. It's not that the values of religion are wrong or bad, but some people make religion their profession. And like politicians who may have fought a war (now labeled heroes (for political gain)) these religious are religious on a similar stage to the actor. Are they live or are they Memorex? One thing is for sure - their three square are automatic.
Is your religion live or is it Memorex?
-------------------- ...or something
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19007314 - 10/21/13 07:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm not so sure there are plenty if you could look into the heart of the matter. IMO the truly spiritual person leaves religion alone once he experiences any cognitive dissonance. Something any awakened person would experience imo.
Yeah plenty may have been the wrong word
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19007390 - 10/21/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
If so called religious people can't discern that these "bullies" are fakes then I see little benefit in being religious. These "religious" imo are in it for other reasons besides awakening.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19007462 - 10/21/13 08:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Cultural and community approval. In my area being a discovered agnostic/atheist automatically puts you at odds with the overwhelming protestant foothold.
Indoctrination
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
#19007496 - 10/21/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yogi1 said: Cultural and community approval. In my area being a discovered agnostic/atheist automatically puts you at odds with the overwhelming protestant foothold.
Indoctrination 
Someday it's likely the reverse will be true. Atheists are on the rise.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19007541 - 10/21/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Yogi1 said: Cultural and community approval. In my area being a discovered agnostic/atheist automatically puts you at odds with the overwhelming protestant foothold.
Indoctrination 
Someday it's likely the reverse will be true. Atheists are on the rise.
Very true. I think the number of americans that aren't affiliated with any religion is up to 16% now.
Have any of you seen Bill Mahar's documentary "Religulous"??? It is pretty good. It is on netflix if you have it
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19008056 - 10/21/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah seen some.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Icelander]
#19015561 - 10/22/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|

My pitbull jack got murdered by police
|
afaunaimeddaedalus
Stranger


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 203
Last seen: 10 years, 5 days
|
|
Jesus was a pit bull that was murdered by police
|
Withinity
Untitled


Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 1,357
Loc: Côte d’Ivoire
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
|
One of my ex Pitbull's accidentally hung itself to get to the bitch on the other side.
--------------------
|
Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Withinity]
#19017993 - 10/23/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What's different between a spiritual person who follows a religion and someone who is just merely "spiritual" is that many of the latter demographic don't dare place themselves with any onus to defend their position.
The abstract nature of their raw "spirituality" gives them a safe and convenient bet with no opportunity for the other party to raise question to it.
They are often without suggestions and theories of their own but full with opposing critique against religions that in contrast, hold debatable "form".
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (10/23/13 09:53 AM)
|
Brown Buffalo
paisley superstar



Registered: 09/14/13
Posts: 821
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#19018212 - 10/23/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Also fictional characters are able to teach things. Isnt for this reason that fables exists? It seems to me that you are looking the finger instead of looking to the moon it points
-------------------- "..Here I am, inside the bunker, behind mental steel walls 90 psycho-centimeters thick.."
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction *DELETED* [Re: eve69]
#19020987 - 10/23/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by MarkostheGnosticReason for deletion: .
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
|
That was the article that started this thread.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
|
No
--------------------
|
Mahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 117
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1] 1
#19021257 - 10/23/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
One scholar evaluates Atwill, with the following captions, among others: "Evidence? Or Insufferable Slurries of Bullshit and Denial?" and "His Best Evidence Is Just Offal". Heh.
Here's a snippet:
There are at least eight general problems with his thesis, which do not refute it but establish that it has a very low prior probability, and therefore requires exceptionally good evidence to be at all credible:
(1) The Roman aristocracy was nowhere near as clever as Atwill’s theory requires. They certainly were not so masterfully educated in the Jewish scriptures and theology that they could compose hundreds of pages of elegant passages based on it. And it is very unlikely they would ever conceive of a scheme like this, much less think they could succeed at it (even less, actually do so).
(2) We know there were over forty Gospels, yet the four chosen for the canon were not selected until well into the 2nd century, and not by anyone in the Roman aristocracy. Likewise which Epistles were selected.
(3) The Gospels and the Epistles all contradict each other far too much to have been composed with a systematic aim in mind. Indeed, they contradict each other in ways that often demonstrate they are deliberately arguing with each other. From the ways Matthew changes Mark; to the way the forged 2 Thessalonians actually tries to argue 1 Thessalonians is the forgery; to how the resurrections depicted in Luke and John are deliberate attempts to refute the doctrine of resurrection defended originally by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5; to how some Epistles insist on Torah observance while others insist it can be discarded; to how Luke’s nativity contradicts Matthew’s on almost every single particular (and not just in placing the event in completely different periods ten years apart); to how Acts blatantly contradicts Paul’s own account of his conversion and travels; to how John invents a real Lazarus to refute a point Luke tried to make with a fictional Lazarus; and so on. (I discuss some of these, and more, in my forthcoming book On the Historicity of Jesus.)
(4) The Gospels and the Epistles differ far too much in style to have come from the same hand, and many show signs of later doctoring that would problematize attempts to confirm any theory like Atwill’s. For example, Mark 16:9-20, John 20 vs. 21, the hash job made of the epistle to the Romans, etc. Even the fact of how the canon was selected creates a problem for Atwill’s research requirements–for instance, the actual first letter to the Corinthians is completely missing, yet Paul refers to its existence in “our” 1 Corinthians.
(5) Christianity was probably constructed to “divert Jewish hostility and aggressiveness into a pacifist religion, supportive of–and subservient to–Roman rule,” but not by Romans, but exasperated Jews like Paul, who saw Jewish militarism as unacceptably disastrous in contrast with the obvious advantages of retooling their messianic expectations to produce the peaceful moral reform of society. The precedents were all there already in pre-Christian Jewish ideology and society (in Philo’s philosophy, in Essene and Qumranic efforts to solve the same problems, and so on) so we don’t have to posit super-genius Aryans helping the poor little angry Jews to calm down.
(6) Pacifying Jews would not have been possible with a cult that eliminated Jewish law and accepted Gentiles as equals, and in actual fact Christianity was pretty much a failure in Palestine. Its success was achieved mainly in the Diaspora, where the Romans rarely had any major problems with the Jews. The Jewish War was only fought in Palestine, and not even against all the Jews there (many sided with Rome). How would inventing a religion that would have no chance of succeeding in the heart of Palestine but instead was tailor made to succeed outside Palestine, ever help the Romans with anything they considered important?
(7) If the Roman elite’s aim was to “pacify” Palestinian Jews by inventing new scriptures, they were certainly smart and informed enough to know that that wouldn’t succeed by using the language the Judean elite despised as foreign (Greek).
(8) The Romans knew one thing well: War. Social ideology they were never very good at. That’s why Rome always had such problems keeping its empire together, and why social discontent and other malfunctions continued to escalate until the empire started dissolving. Rome expected to solve every problem militarily instead–and up until the 3rd century Rome did so quite well. The Jewish War was effectively over in just four years (any siege war was expected to take at least three, and Vespasian was actually busy conquering Rome in the fourth year of that War). So why would they think they needed any other solution?
With all that counting against Atwill, he has a very high burden to meet. And he just doesn’t. He actually has no evidence at all for his thesis, except “Bible Code”-style readings of coincidences among texts, which he seems only to read in English and not the original Greek, all the while relying on egregious fallacies in probabilistic reasoning.
Full text: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4664
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19022158 - 10/23/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
eve69 said: That was the article that started this thread.
Whoops! Think I'll take it down. Still, read D.M. Murdock if you are intrigued.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
|
-------------------- ...or something
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19032489 - 10/25/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Not THAT embarrassed. Besides, NOTHING grosses me out more than boogers, and I've had the diaper-diarrhea from a 102 year old man all over my arm, trying to catch him from falling out of bed.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19038355 - 10/26/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Just a reply to the OP. I didn't read all the posts in between. Even historians who aren't Christian will tell you a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, lived at the same time the bible said he lived, was said to have performed miracles, and was crucified. That article link is jibberish in my respectful opinion and could not stand up to actual documented history of that time. God bless.
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
|
omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1,227
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19044580 - 10/28/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
J dash. show us documentation verifying jesus' existence from that time.
then you're statement can be considered.
maybe read the posts between next time as I and several others have posted information proving the contrary.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19044618 - 10/28/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
J Dash said: Just a reply to the OP. I didn't read all the posts in between. Even historians who aren't Christian will tell you a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, lived at the same time the bible said he lived, was said to have performed miracles, and was crucified. That article link is jibberish in my respectful opinion and could not stand up to actual documented history of that time. God bless.
This is just not true. Sorry but we know better. Let's see your source of information
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19044860 - 10/28/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stromrider said:
Quote:
J Dash said: Just a reply to the OP. I didn't read all the posts in between. Even historians who aren't Christian will tell you a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, lived at the same time the bible said he lived, was said to have performed miracles, and was crucified. That article link is jibberish in my respectful opinion and could not stand up to actual documented history of that time. God bless.
This is just not true. Sorry but we know better. Let's see your source of information
--------------------
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19046702 - 10/28/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19046767 - 10/28/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yet none of those sources were contemporary.
--------------------
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
|
They always want to make josephus their biggest case which I find down right comical. Any of you that are well versed in the subject know what I'm talking about. I know Yogi1 knows what I mean
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19046821 - 10/28/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The concept of hearsay seems to be beyond the ken of many posters.
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: g00ru]
#19046879 - 10/28/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
g00ru said: /shrug its good to read it whether you believe or not (trust me on that one)
“Happy is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
--------------------
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
|
I'm sorry but I got to get off subject for a second just to say that Orgone your field of dreams is down right beautiful!
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Stromrider]
#19047339 - 10/28/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
TY TY. Jesus told me exactly how to tie down the stems. He is cool like that!
--------------------
|
Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 16 hours, 23 minutes
|
|
+5 for that
|
White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
g00ru said: /shrug its good to read it whether you believe or not (trust me on that one)
“Happy is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
Prevents overpopulation. Maybe God is on to something.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#19050460 - 10/29/13 05:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: What's different between a spiritual person who follows a religion and someone who is just merely "spiritual" is that many of the latter demographic don't dare place themselves with any onus to defend their position.
The abstract nature of their raw "spirituality" gives them a safe and convenient bet with no opportunity for the other party to raise question to it.
They are often without suggestions and theories of their own but full with opposing critique against religions that in contrast, hold debatable "form".
I agree, and I also think it's a good thing though. There's an alternative to Atheist which is -be oneself- which may be unidentifiably spiritual, and unaligned. The lack of peer support is also freedom from bullyism, and also, and most importantly, the individual is more inclined to engage in communication to facilitate better workflow instead of relying on clichés and prejudices to cordon.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19050484 - 10/29/13 05:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Nothing wrong with being spiritual vs adhering to 2000 year old dogma handpicked ny a political organization for the sake of mass population control.
For instance, spiritual person says, maybe were all one.. Mississippi Baptist says, hate niggers sandniggers and faggots.
See how Christians don't quite hold up to spirituality? Read leviticus and make it nice and spiritual for me...
End rant.
--------------------
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
#19050810 - 10/29/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I'm a Christian and I don't 'hate' anyone. That actually would contradict my beliefs if I did. I'm willing to bet one hateful person or a small group of hateful people were behind that Mississippi Baptist quote. Even if it's a large group they don't speak for me. That's not all Christians. As a matter of fact those aren't Christians. They do make real Christians look bad though.
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
|
Skydawg
Stranger

Registered: 03/23/13
Posts: 72
Loc: CT
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
eve69 said: That was the article that started this thread.
Whoops! Think I'll take it down. Still, read D.M. Murdock if you are intrigued.
Her work has largely been discredited, I don't know of any scholars of early Christianity that take " Acharya S." seriously. She's also very arrogant, and very defensive.
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
Skydawg said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
eve69 said: That was the article that started this thread.
Whoops! Think I'll take it down. Still, read D.M. Murdock if you are intrigued.
Her work has largely been discredited, I don't know of any scholars of early Christianity that take " Acharya S." seriously. She's also very arrogant, and very defensive.
Exactly, and not only that, non Christian historians would also easily discredit her work.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yet none of those sources were contemporary. 
Sources weren't contemporary because they've stood the test of time. They haven't truly been disproven by any means.
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19051014 - 10/29/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
J Dash said: I'm a Christian and I don't 'hate' anyone. That actually would contradict my beliefs if I did. I'm willing to bet one hateful person or a small group of hateful people were behind that Mississippi Baptist quote. Even if it's a large group they don't speak for me. That's not all Christians. As a matter of fact those aren't Christians. They do make real Christians look bad though.
Leviticus will inform you who to hate.
Gays, independent women, slaves that don't worship their master as they worship god, sea food, people who wear clothes made more than one fabric...
--------------------
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: Yogi1]
#19051079 - 10/29/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
God doesn't tell his believers to hate anyone.
Matthew 5:43-44 (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
But I see you've been brushing up on your Leviticus lately.
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19051125 - 10/29/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Well I guess Christianity is full of holes and contradictions, who knew?
--------------------
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19051130 - 10/29/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Here's how it is. If you worshipped the true god let it be known by an act which will cause you suffering to prove you mean it you dog! Those who worship falsely will have something bad happen somehow for some reason or something. Or someone will fuck them over because they aren't righteous like us. We mean something. Even though this whole universe would deny it! Our God cares more for us than for his own son..... Though what the fuck we are? Are we neither more nor less than the NSA think we are? The chip won't really hurt because we are worshippers of the Treu Wone
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19051214 - 10/29/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Just the fact that god had a chosen people makes him petty and silly in my eyes. That he choose one group of humans over another is so very very human. Guess who came first?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
J Dash
The Determined Newb


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 35
Loc: midwestern US
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: eve69]
#19051220 - 10/29/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Just a couple of questions because I'm curious...
What is the chip?
Who is the treu wone?
Just want to be on the same page with you Eve
-------------------- All people have a right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.
Edited by J Dash (10/29/13 09:56 AM)
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19051382 - 10/29/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
it was the spirits talking it was no less true for me not being able to explain it now
-------------------- ...or something
|
B_BOY
Phuck Ewe



Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2,819
Loc: O
|
Re: Jesus story is pure fiction [Re: J Dash]
#19051387 - 10/29/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
OP =
--------------------
|
|