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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: MeinDarkEye]
    #18956228 - 10/09/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MeinDarkEye said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Simply focus Awareness without Mind Intent.  Words may be dualistic but the Mind can see beyond.

Distinctions are important.  Truth is seen truly with distinct clarity.




What is the difference between up or down.





Go ask the man doing Yogic headstands while pissing in the bathroom stall sideways-clumsy.


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OfflineMeinDarkEye
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Mr.Al]
    #18956299 - 10/09/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Quote:

MeinDarkEye said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Simply focus Awareness without Mind Intent.  Words may be dualistic but the Mind can see beyond.

Distinctions are important.  Truth is seen truly with distinct clarity.




What is the difference between up or down.





Go ask the man doing Yogic headstands while pissing in the bathroom stall sideways-clumsy.




Why ask when I can enjoy a good laugh.  And probably get pissed on but c'est la vie :dawerp:


--------------------
Why can't you be normal!
What you mean to say is, Average.

What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will?
What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill?
What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again?
Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: MeinDarkEye]
    #18956321 - 10/09/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MeinDarkEye said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Quote:

MeinDarkEye said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Simply focus Awareness without Mind Intent.  Words may be dualistic but the Mind can see beyond.

Distinctions are important.  Truth is seen truly with distinct clarity.




What is the difference between up or down.





Go ask the man doing Yogic headstands while pissing in the bathroom stall sideways-clumsy.




Why ask when I can enjoy a good laugh.  And probably get pissed on but c'est la vie :dawerp:





His work is everywhere, but only very few know the Yogi.

He honed his work so well that many argue as to whether there were hands involved in the first place.


What is hand.


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OfflineMeinDarkEye
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Mr.Al]
    #18956402 - 10/09/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Lol I don't know.  Still think would be interesting to get pissed on by Yogi. :cheerup:


--------------------
Why can't you be normal!
What you mean to say is, Average.

What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will?
What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill?
What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again?
Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.


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OfflineDeviate
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Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: r72rock]
    #18956586 - 10/09/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
http://zencomprehensible.com/confessions-of-a-fucked-up-zen-teacher/

I thought this was great, and really hit me at a good time in my life. Being "awakened" or "enlightened" doesn't let us escape from reality and never feel anymore pain. It's mostly about just being aware and awake to the pain fully and living with it. :heart:

At least to me, that takes a whole lot of courage.





What do you think enlightenment or awakening (in the fullest sense) really is?

Its not just being a regular guy who has vices and addictions but practices some meditation on the side and has been trained as a zen teacher.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if you are not perfect it means you can't be a zen teacher, on the contrary it would be unrealistic to expect zen teachers to all be perfect. But I have two issues here. The first is the one I already mentioned, what is enlightenment?  if itt's just being aware and awake to pain and fully living with it, then it's certainly not an end to suffering.  But on that same webiste, the author says that it is an end to suffering "I don’t know why anyone would expect to learn how to end suffering for free" and he says that it is "finding self acceptance and peace." My second issue is

"
I wouldn’t say I’m honest, or authentic or enlightened. Bullshit, I call myself these things all the time."

Am I misunderstanding or is he is saying that he lies to his students and tells them he is enlightened when according to his own definition of enlightened, he isn't?

I guess I dont understand the point of this article.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Deviate]
    #18956597 - 10/09/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He reminds me of most "professionals". :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Deviate]
    #18957119 - 10/09/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
What do you think enlightenment or awakening (in the fullest sense) really is?





I don't really know what enlightenment is, which is why I tend to stay away from the word today. I believe that's why he stays away from the word in the article.

While he does use it, he doesn't define it. He only uses it in ways to poke fun at the idea of enlightenment and the western romantic idea of it. He's purposely staying away from defining the word because because he doesn't really believe in it. I've never read anything else by this dude either, just this article.

Quote:

The first is the one I already mentioned, what is enlightenment?  if itt's just being aware and awake to pain and fully living with it, then it's certainly not an end to suffering.  But on that same webiste, the author says that it is an end to suffering "I don’t know why anyone would expect to learn how to end suffering for free" and he says that it is "finding self acceptance and peace."




Being aware of pain and fully living with it isn't the same as suffering (dukkha) according to Zen. It's argued that while you'll always feel the pain of life, it's optional whether you create more pain through one's delusions. Hence the end of suffering. It'd be the same as self acceptance and peace. That's what his post was about. He was at peace about being human and being who he was, and he accepted it. That's accepting that one's subject to pain. That's accepting that one isn't perfect.


Quote:

"
I wouldn’t say I’m honest, or authentic or enlightened. Bullshit, I call myself these things all the time."

Am I misunderstanding or is he is saying that he lies to his students and tells them he is enlightened when according to his own definition of enlightened, he isn't?

I guess I dont understand the point of this article.




From his tone, I gathered he was just poking fun at himself. He was just talking about how much of the bullshit he sees in himself and how much he's aware of it as well.

The point of his article, that he stated, was to say that there's nothing special about being a Zen Teacher. He's just a human who happens to be an ordained Zen Priest.

What I took away from it, was that no matter what happens or what one tries to do in life, there's no escape from life. Life kinda just sucks and it's hard to deal with, but that doesn't mean we still can't try our best to be a better person each day.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Deviate]
    #18957843 - 10/10/13 03:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I listened to some of his talks and I actually like him a great deal. I just needed to understand more about who he was and his teaching.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Deviate]
    #18961075 - 10/10/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Glad you liked it! I actually just listened to one of his talks where he talked about the essence of what Zen is. Cool stuff. :thumbup:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: r72rock]
    #18961289 - 10/10/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Is one living Zen, or Life.
If they live Zen are they also living Life.
If one lives Life are they also living Zen?

Do you pay much to live Zen in Life?
How much? How much is Life?
Why did nobody make one pay for Life
when Zen costs so much?

Maybe it's better not to live without zen
maybe zen without life makes more sense.


Or maybe
if one is fucked up with zen
one can pay less and not be fucked up with zen
and yet still live!!!

I think I've got it!
Herpes.

But I lived and I lived Zen.
But that's a whole other story.

The Zend.


--------------------
...or something







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Offlinelolwut
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Registered: 08/14/10
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: r72rock]
    #18961543 - 10/10/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
http://zencomprehensible.com/confessions-of-a-fucked-up-zen-teacher/

I thought this was great, and really hit me at a good time in my life. Being "awakened" or "enlightened" doesn't let us escape from reality and never feel anymore pain. It's mostly about just being aware and awake to the pain fully and living with it. :heart:

At least to me, that takes a whole lot of courage.




Wrong :lol:


--------------------
Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...

:haha:


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: lolwut]
    #18962608 - 10/11/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

O woe is you who has probably not experienced real pain or discomfort.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: Jaegar]
    #18962613 - 10/11/13 04:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If any of you were serious of your noble intents go to Africa spending all your money and skills on contributing to its infrastructure.


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: r72rock]
    #18962631 - 10/11/13 05:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
http://zencomprehensible.com/confessions-of-a-fucked-up-zen-teacher/

I thought this was great, and really hit me at a good time in my life. Being "awakened" or "enlightened" doesn't let us escape from reality and never feel anymore pain. It's mostly about just being aware and awake to the pain fully and living with it. :heart:

At least to me, that takes a whole lot of courage.




As Terence the Roman playwright said: "Nothing human is alien to me."

Humans will be humans and we will all have similar feelings/sins/shortcomings/self deceit and so forth.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: GoldenEye]
    #18963585 - 10/11/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Fuk I feel sick.


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Offlinethatmonk
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18966592 - 10/12/13 12:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Facing pain is often the only way to go through it.

Maybe, maybe not.  Maybe facing pain is the best way to be miserable. :shrug:




We just need to find someone to face pain and report back. :lol: So far I've been pretty content being a big ol pussy.




I've experienced HIV for 20 years, ruptured disks in my back, sciatica, trigeminal neuralgia (permanent nerve pain in the face), neuropathy in my hands and feet, Hepatitis B, the death of my partner from liver failure, PTSD, emotionally and psychologically abused as a kid by my father, depression, growing up gay and all the abuse that goes with it, six years on opiates to supposedly treat the nerve pain in my face, the sheer horror of tapering off and recovering which took three years and I still have restless leg sometimes... and I am sure I am missing a few.

I can report that when you discover that suffering comes from pushing away your experience and grasping after what you no longer experience or posses, you suffer. Add to that all the stories our mind generates about our pain and our situation, we create even more suffering for ourselves. Lost in a mental stew of concepts and projections about our pain, we wander in endless misery.

I have spent 17 years in training and experienced at times what feels like hell. All caused my by own resistance. Seeing more and more deeply into this does not stop the physical pain, but the suffering vanishes like darkness in the sun. Sure, I don't feel good physically and have lost an awful lot, but pain really is just innocent sensation.

But what I have "gained" though all the pain is priceless. I no longer fear pain and suffering is my teacher. To sum up: it is the shittiest experiences that have turned into the greatest blessings and teachers. I am very fortunate! I also have a lot more work to do...

As to the Zen Priest writing this article, he is doing really well. It takes a lot of balls to see our fucked-up-ness. But seeing it openly is a full HALF the Path right there. Now we know what to work on. Before we believed we were fine, or worse, it was someone or something "out there" who was responsible for our problems. And for the sucker who thinks their problems come from the outside... well you're pretty much SOL 'till the universe beats that tendency out of you; and the universe has plenty of time to accomplish this!

I am pretty good at a number of things, and my friends ask me how I got so good at whatever it is I am currently doing well. My usual answer is crafted from very carefully chosen words: "From fucking up a lot!"
Fuckupery is the path to awakening. Make enough mistakes and there you are... awake.


--------------------
...because life is fleeting.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: thatmonk]
    #18966710 - 10/12/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

dood! :thumbup:

My brother in law imo is the opposite example that imo shows how it's different for everyone.

He's basically followed the party line his whole life. Conservative Marine redneck pain in the ass.  Now he is dying of cancer and in some amount of pain.  I was expecting him to freak and break down out but he doesn't seem to be doing it.  He just keeps believing that everythings going to fix itself and the docs will come up with a last minute miracle. Even though they keep fucking up the treatments and making things worse. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: thatmonk]
    #18970426 - 10/12/13 11:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thatmonk said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Facing pain is often the only way to go through it.

Maybe, maybe not.  Maybe facing pain is the best way to be miserable. :shrug:




We just need to find someone to face pain and report back. :lol: So far I've been pretty content being a big ol pussy.




I've experienced HIV for 20 years, ruptured disks in my back, sciatica, trigeminal neuralgia (permanent nerve pain in the face), neuropathy in my hands and feet, Hepatitis B, the death of my partner from liver failure, PTSD, emotionally and psychologically abused as a kid by my father, depression, growing up gay and all the abuse that goes with it, six years on opiates to supposedly treat the nerve pain in my face, the sheer horror of tapering off and recovering which took three years and I still have restless leg sometimes... and I am sure I am missing a few.

I can report that when you discover that suffering comes from pushing away your experience and grasping after what you no longer experience or posses, you suffer. Add to that all the stories our mind generates about our pain and our situation, we create even more suffering for ourselves. Lost in a mental stew of concepts and projections about our pain, we wander in endless misery.

I have spent 17 years in training and experienced at times what feels like hell. All caused my by own resistance. Seeing more and more deeply into this does not stop the physical pain, but the suffering vanishes like darkness in the sun. Sure, I don't feel good physically and have lost an awful lot, but pain really is just innocent sensation.

But what I have "gained" though all the pain is priceless. I no longer fear pain and suffering is my teacher. To sum up: it is the shittiest experiences that have turned into the greatest blessings and teachers. I am very fortunate! I also have a lot more work to do...

As to the Zen Priest writing this article, he is doing really well. It takes a lot of balls to see our fucked-up-ness. But seeing it openly is a full HALF the Path right there. Now we know what to work on. Before we believed we were fine, or worse, it was someone or something "out there" who was responsible for our problems. And for the sucker who thinks their problems come from the outside... well you're pretty much SOL 'till the universe beats that tendency out of you; and the universe has plenty of time to accomplish this!

I am pretty good at a number of things, and my friends ask me how I got so good at whatever it is I am currently doing well. My usual answer is crafted from very carefully chosen words: "From fucking up a lot!"
Fuckupery is the path to awakening. Make enough mistakes and there you are... awake.




:thumbup: Hell yea man. I'm learning this as well. I used to resist a lot more and the resistance in itself is what caused me most of my suffering.


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: thatmonk]
    #18972791 - 10/13/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thatmonk said:

I've experienced HIV for 20 years, ruptured disks in my back, sciatica, trigeminal neuralgia (permanent nerve pain in the face), neuropathy in my hands and feet, Hepatitis B, the death of my partner from liver failure, PTSD, emotionally and psychologically abused as a kid by my father, depression, growing up gay and all the abuse that goes with it, six years on opiates to supposedly treat the nerve pain in my face, the sheer horror of tapering off and recovering which took three years and I still have restless leg sometimes... and I am sure I am missing a few.

I can report that when you discover that suffering comes from pushing away your experience and grasping after what you no longer experience or posses, you suffer. Add to that all the stories our mind generates about our pain and our situation, we create even more suffering for ourselves. Lost in a mental stew of concepts and projections about our pain, we wander in endless misery.

I have spent 17 years in training and experienced at times what feels like hell. All caused my by own resistance. Seeing more and more deeply into this does not stop the physical pain, but the suffering vanishes like darkness in the sun. Sure, I don't feel good physically and have lost an awful lot, but pain really is just innocent sensation.

But what I have "gained" though all the pain is priceless. I no longer fear pain and suffering is my teacher. To sum up: it is the shittiest experiences that have turned into the greatest blessings and teachers. I am very fortunate! I also have a lot more work to do...

As to the Zen Priest writing this article, he is doing really well. It takes a lot of balls to see our fucked-up-ness. But seeing it openly is a full HALF the Path right there. Now we know what to work on. Before we believed we were fine, or worse, it was someone or something "out there" who was responsible for our problems. And for the sucker who thinks their problems come from the outside... well you're pretty much SOL 'till the universe beats that tendency out of you; and the universe has plenty of time to accomplish this!

I am pretty good at a number of things, and my friends ask me how I got so good at whatever it is I am currently doing well. My usual answer is crafted from very carefully chosen words: "From fucking up a lot!"
Fuckupery is the path to awakening. Make enough mistakes and there you are... awake.




Aho!


Edited by GoldenEye (10/13/13 04:07 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
Male


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Posts: 1,327
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Re: Confessions of a Fucked Up Zen Teacher [Re: thatmonk]
    #18972860 - 10/13/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thatmonk said:
I've experienced HIV for 20 years, ruptured disks in my back, sciatica, trigeminal neuralgia (permanent nerve pain in the face), neuropathy in my hands and feet, Hepatitis B, the death of my partner from liver failure, PTSD, emotionally and psychologically abused as a kid by my father, depression, growing up gay and all the abuse that goes with it, six years on opiates to supposedly treat the nerve pain in my face, the sheer horror of tapering off and recovering which took three years and I still have restless leg sometimes... and I am sure I am missing a few.

I can report that when you discover that suffering comes from pushing away your experience and grasping after what you no longer experience or posses, you suffer. Add to that all the stories our mind generates about our pain and our situation, we create even more suffering for ourselves. Lost in a mental stew of concepts and projections about our pain, we wander in endless misery.

I have spent 17 years in training and experienced at times what feels like hell. All caused my by own resistance. Seeing more and more deeply into this does not stop the physical pain, but the suffering vanishes like darkness in the sun. Sure, I don't feel good physically and have lost an awful lot, but pain really is just innocent sensation.

But what I have "gained" though all the pain is priceless. I no longer fear pain and suffering is my teacher. To sum up: it is the shittiest experiences that have turned into the greatest blessings and teachers. I am very fortunate! I also have a lot more work to do...

As to the Zen Priest writing this article, he is doing really well. It takes a lot of balls to see our fucked-up-ness. But seeing it openly is a full HALF the Path right there. Now we know what to work on. Before we believed we were fine, or worse, it was someone or something "out there" who was responsible for our problems. And for the sucker who thinks their problems come from the outside... well you're pretty much SOL 'till the universe beats that tendency out of you; and the universe has plenty of time to accomplish this!

I am pretty good at a number of things, and my friends ask me how I got so good at whatever it is I am currently doing well. My usual answer is crafted from very carefully chosen words: "From fucking up a lot!"
Fuckupery is the path to awakening. Make enough mistakes and there you are... awake.




Thanks for sharing. That was a good read. :sun: Things like this inspire me to try my best.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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