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OfflineLord_McLovin
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A thought on how they busted DPR
    #18954333 - 10/09/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Alright, we all know DPR was arrested and that it was because he used the nickname attached to one of his email-addresses before setting up Silk Road. Most importantly, we believe, according to the indictment, that they didn't manage to break the onion network and that it was only a fault on DPR's side (among some others) that got him busted.

However, there's a thought that was crawling up my spine and I didn't like it. It's just a thought, a hypothesis, if you prefer that name, that I wanted to share.

Recently there's been a couple news articles on the NSA spying on everyone and that everyone is pretty much a suspect. We believe that they neither have the man nor computing power to disentangle that fucking huge amount of information and as long as they are not searching for anything (or anyone!) specific, there's really not much you have to worry about. A few weeks later there were other news reports that the NSA is handing out the information it gathers to the DEA and they use it to actively prosecute people or tell other agencies (like the FBI) the information they gathered. However, when those people are prosecuted, there will be no mentioning of the NSA and the way the information was gathered (very often illegally). You can find these articles on google, describing it probably a lot better than I did here. The most important point is that the police/DEA has to use a method called parallel construction to prosecute people: That means they know everything from the NSA already and that tells them how to and where to look for building up a case, but they are not allowed to mention the NSA or its information anywhere. Now my questions are:

What if this is how they busted DPR? What if the NSA does have enough tor nodes and computing power to monitor the tor network? What if the NSA gave the information it gathered this way about DPR and some vendors to the FBI/DEA and they used parallel construction to bust DPR?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18954339 - 10/09/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If that were the case, you'd think he would have been busted a lot sooner, since according to those articles the DEA-NSA partnership has been going on for months (if not years).


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: NetDiver]
    #18954370 - 10/09/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, but you do not know when they managed to crack the tor network (if they did). You also do not know how much time the DEA/FBI needed to disentangle that information and build up a good case against DPR. Recall that they are not allowed to use the information the NSA gave them before court and that they need time to build up something bulletproof. They cannot just bust him without any solid evidence.


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InvisibleLegend
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18954402 - 10/09/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not saying i know shit about anything, but that totally makes sense to me OP. and i don't like it.


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Lord_McLovin] * 1
    #18954408 - 10/09/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This has already been brought up multiple times in other threads, I believe this is pretty much exactly what happened.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #18954442 - 10/09/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, there is no way to tell but I believe the fact that they "randomly" found paper passports in the mail makes it pretty clear that the NSA was involved somehow.  No idea about tor.  The evidence suggests it is alright but who knows.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #18954457 - 10/09/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Any improperly gathered evidence will not be admissable in court.


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InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: ilus]
    #18954488 - 10/09/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

illustrain said:
Yeah, there is no way to tell but I believe the fact that they "randomly" found paper passports in the mail makes it pretty clear that the NSA was involved somehow.  No idea about tor.  The evidence suggests it is alright but who knows.




Not that I disagree with the overall possibility of parallel construction being used here, but finding some passports in the mail is investigating 101 and doesn't really imply the work of the NSA.

Mail is far from secure and any good private investigator, much less federal agent investigator, has people within the USPS who tip them off when they're watching somebody. Packages are even less secure as they're often left on doorsteps and can easily be intercepted, opened and repackaged. These days they probably don't have to do any of that they can x ray the envelope.

I read once that 90% of an FBI field agent's job is digging through the trash and looking at the mail of the target.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18954494 - 10/09/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
Alright, we all know DPR was arrested and that it was because he used the nickname attached to one of his email-addresses before setting up Silk Road. Most importantly, we believe, according to the indictment, that they didn't manage to break the onion network and that it was only a fault on DPR's side (among some others) that got him busted.

However, there's a thought that was crawling up my spine and I didn't like it. It's just a thought, a hypothesis, if you prefer that name, that I wanted to share.

Recently there's been a couple news articles on the NSA spying on everyone and that everyone is pretty much a suspect. We believe that they neither have the man nor computing power to disentangle that fucking huge amount of information and as long as they are not searching for anything (or anyone!) specific, there's really not much you have to worry about. A few weeks later there were other news reports that the NSA is handing out the information it gathers to the DEA and they use it to actively prosecute people or tell other agencies (like the FBI) the information they gathered. However, when those people are prosecuted, there will be no mentioning of the NSA and the way the information was gathered (very often illegally). You can find these articles on google, describing it probably a lot better than I did here. The most important point is that the police/DEA has to use a method called parallel construction to prosecute people: That means they know everything from the NSA already and that tells them how to and where to look for building up a case, but they are not allowed to mention the NSA or its information anywhere. Now my questions are:

What if this is how they busted DPR? What if the NSA does have enough tor nodes and computing power to monitor the tor network? What if the NSA gave the information it gathered this way about DPR and some vendors to the FBI/DEA and they used parallel construction to bust DPR?





I had a similiar theory in the original SR thread before it got nuked.

Pretty much it boils down to they wouldnt want to let anyone know if they broke tor for a few reasons.

One is damage control over the NSA spying on everyone. Wouldnt look good if they just broke a very strong encryption while they tell everyone they cant.

Also, if they did hack tor, but made it seem as if they didnt. When the next round of SR clones pop up, they will be easier to take down.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18954496 - 10/09/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Any improperly gathered evidence will not be admissable in court.




But that is exactly where the parallel construction comes in.  I personally cant ever remember hearing about any court case where specifically the NSA's evidence was used.


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: ilus]
    #18954531 - 10/09/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

illustrain said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Any improperly gathered evidence will not be admissable in court.




But that is exactly where the parallel construction comes in.  I personally cant ever remember hearing about any court case where specifically the NSA's evidence was used.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/

They took over 2 and a half years to take SR down, who the hell knows how they did it.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18954532 - 10/09/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Any improperly gathered evidence will not be admissable in court.




The premise of parallel construction is that illegally obtained information is used to acquire up more incriminating evidence which is in turn used to make an arrest and to explain away the illegality of the first set of information. It is a process of information laundering.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: ilus]
    #18954539 - 10/09/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't either.  Nor do any of us know much at all about the case.  The OP is pure speculation without one shred of support in the known record.  Let's wait for the facts before we hyperventilate.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18954546 - 10/09/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'll go file a FOI request with the NSA and be back with some facts in a jif'.


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InvisibleSmushroom
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #18954598 - 10/09/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I won't argue whether or not the NSA has the ability to analyze all the data they actually collect I will say that in this case it wasn't necessary. Why would they go to the effort when basic investigative techniques can solve the crime?

It doesn't seem as the IDs sent from Canada were used in tracking him down. They were just included to add PC after the fact. ~10% of all packages being mailed through customs get inspected (opened, xrayed, or dogs). WOuldn't take much crappy packaging on the shippers part to find them. Also depends on what he was hiding them in as well. If customs gets a package that cost $20 to ship but contains a $2 item on the declaration form or if the dec form doesn't match the contents it will get flagged.

To find the owner of a website IMO the basic routine would be:
Search for all mentions of that website online

Take note of the users/sites mention the website

Search for other posts by those users that may relate

Find users that have made multiple posts that relate to, not just mention, that website

Link those users to real life identities

Look for links between those identities and the website

********
If you follow that basic routine for SR and put in the time to analyze it then it is a pretty obvious trace since all the info was available on searchable forums. I'm actually surprised he didn't get busted earlier.

The amount of time, manpower, and computing power to analyze NSA web traffic data is probably 10x the cost of the manpower needed to do the search posted above manually.


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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #18954611 - 10/09/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

of course the NSA shared information about Dread Pirate Roberts with the DEA and FBI. That's what they do, and I doubt there was ever a time when they couldn't crack tor.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #18954680 - 10/09/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. P. Silocybin said:
of course the NSA shared information about Dread Pirate Roberts with the DEA and FBI. That's what they do, and I doubt there was ever a time when they couldn't crack tor.



Link?


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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18954726 - 10/09/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Common sense?

We know they're gathering the information. What do you think they're doing with it?


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InvisibleNot Responding
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #18954829 - 10/09/13 03:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

whos DPR? a shroomy member? what if and i mean what if ythan is selling our accounts?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A thought on how they busted DPR [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #18954839 - 10/09/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Link?



Quote:

Dr. P. Silocybin said:
Common sense?




I don't see the link.  Not saying it's impossible just saying that it is unnecessary and unlikely.  And fuck DPR anyway.  In fact, fuck anybody in Anonymous.
Quote:



We know they're gathering the information. What do you think they're doing with it?




Tracking communication patterns.  This is 100% legal.


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